Pay Us or We Continue to Raze the Amazon
The message of the day is Pay Us or We Continue to Raze the Amazon.
The proposal was made as the Brazilian president prepares for a virtual environmental summit with roughly 40 heads of state hosted Thursday and Friday by President Biden, who has made battling climate change a centerpiece of his administration.
The request is likely just among the first of many similar to follow as developing nations start to negotiate with industrialized countries about who pays for costly programs to address climate change.
This fall, the nations of the world are to set new, more ambitious targets for reducing greenhouse-gas emissions, and developing countries want their richer peers to make good on pledges from the original Paris climate negotiations to mobilize $100 billion a year in public and private financing for them.
Top Indian officials made that among their top requests to John Kerry, the Biden administration’s special envoy on climate change, when he visited earlier this month, according to the Indian Finance Ministry on Twitter.
Ricardo Salles, Brazil’s environment minister, calculated that it is entitled to as much as $294 billion for curtailing deforestation.
“We think that $1 billion, which is only 5% of the $20 billion that were mentioned during the campaign…is a very reasonable amount that can be mobilized up front,” Mr. Salles said.
Under Mr. Bolsonaro’s watch, Amazon deforestation jumped by 9.5% in the year ending July 31, 2020, a 12-year high.
Today $1 billion, tomorrow $294 billion.
Should we pay the bribe?
Before answering you may wish to consider Global Net Zero Climate Change Targets are ‘Pie in the Sky’ according to Raj Kumar Singh, India’s minister for power.
Also note Obama’s Chief Energy Scientist Disputes the Climate Change Propaganda Peddlers
Mish
If I could afford it I would give Brazil and the rest of excessively breeding continents anything they want if only they d STOP breeding !…. BREEDING is the mayor problem on fckn(literally) earth but it is of course not politically correct, and unwoke, to address such a delicate problem ….
its a resource. Air is a resource. CO2 sinks can be considered a resource. Paying a resource rich country to not take short term gains is actually a good idea because:
-Carbon is absorbed by plants and turns INTO carbon energy.
Chump change.
Does that mean that if you give them $1B and they don’t even try to do anything, you’re a chump? [Note that a decade ago they promised that they would reduce net deforestation to zero.]
I mean $1B is a rounding error for USG. It’s like a penny to you or me.
So, do you support giving to them in return for not doing anything?
Sure, why not? What do we get from Israel, Egypt or any of the dozens of other countries we support? Sometimes you get dividends, sometimes you lose your investment.
Governments paying each other openly to make policy decisions is kind of odd.
In thinking about this question some more, I have come to some conclusions. First, Brazil has no intention to reduce deforestation. Second, even if they did want to, they do not have the means to. So, what to do? Well, obviously you can’t give them money in advance for something they have no intention of doing. What you can do, though, is pay after the fact for actual performance. The amount of deforestation (and reforestation, if any) is tracked already. In the year ended July 2020, Brazil deforested 4281 square miles. If Brazil reduces from there, give them something. If it increases, they get nothing.
This article uses the Amazon as an example to discuss the proportionality of numbers.
Playing Fast and Loose with Numbers
Joakim Book
– April 22, 2021
Yes, we pay the $1 billion but it will be delivered in the form of birth control pills.
Since President Jair Bolsonaro took office in January 2019, Brazil has approved 57 pieces of legislation that weaken environmental laws, from relaxing forest protections to declassifying the toxicity of dozens of pesticides, according to a new analysis published in the journal Biological Conservation. Almost half of this legislation, 27 bills, was passed during the height of Brazil’s Covid-19 pandemic, from March to September 2020.
The study also found that the issuing of environmental fines for illegal deforestation dropped by more than 70 percent during the pandemic. This is despite a 9.5 percent increase in deforestation in the Amazon over the past year. The research was led by scientists in Brazil, Britain, and the United States.
“The current administration is taking advantage of the Covid-19 pandemic to intensify a pattern of weakening environmental protection in Brazil,” the study authors wrote. “This has the potential to intensify ongoing loss of biodiversity, greenhouse gas emissions, and the likelihood of other zoonotic disease outbreaks, and inflict substantial harm to traditional and indigenous peoples.”
The study authors used data from the Official Gazette of the Union, the legal newspaper of Brazil that publishes records of all decrees and changes in legislation. They also examined monthly deforestation data from Brazil’s National Institute for Spatial Research (INPE) and records of environmental fines from the Brazilian Institute of Environment and Renewable Natural Resources (IBAMA).
In April 2020, Brazilian Environment Minister Ricardo Salles told other government ministers at a meeting to take advantage of how “the media attention is almost exclusively on Covid… to open the flood gates and change all the rules and simplify the norms.” In the months following Salles’ statement, Brazilian lawmakers and officials did just that. In July, 47 pesticides had their toxicity classifications either lowered or eliminated, the study found. In June, another piece of legislation made it “no longer necessary to restore all permanent environmental conservation areas, even if they are illegally deforested,” SciDev.net reported. The amount of biodiesel added to Brazilian diesel was decreased, from 12 to 10 percent. Laws began allowing mining permits in designated areas even before final authorization and environmental reviews were complete. And several military leaders were appointed to environmental agencies.
“The effects of such changes will likely last for decades,” the scientists wrote.
If the government of Brazil were in control of what is going on inthe Amazon–maybe.
But since they aren’t, it’s money for an empty promise that they don’t have the means to deliver on.
In theory, it would be a good deal to give them $1b to not cut down the Amazon. It might even be a good deal to give them $1b a year to not cut it down. The problem is that giving them any amount of money would not reduce the burning even a whit. The only circumstance that would cause me to say “Yeah, give them some money” would be if you took title to some land, and had the right to possess and police it. At $1000/acre, a billion dollars would buy a million acres, or 1562 square miles. The Amazon rainforest is 2.1 million square miles. That would make the cost for the entire rainforest $1.3 trillion dollars, but you wouldn’t have to buy all of it.
the problem is bolnisaro isn’t even stepping up to the plate. one look at his past actions show he’s the culprit more than the victim. I’m all for global cooperation but this is absurd. He’s not even trying
not sure why but nearly every comment from a new reader went into spam – I undeleted them
Hmm, maybe not just new readers.
You need the secret password. For Marx brothers fans its “Swordfish”
congrats, your now a website administrator again!
For $50 I’ll not clear-cut my backyard.
Shoot, we could depose him for 100 mil
Given how important the Amazon is to the health of the whole world and also given that the USA is the world’s self-appointed policeman, we should therefore be justified in invading and securing the Amazon for the good of all humanity.
Just create a new crypto and give them him that, could call it Amazon Coin. Should be worth more than $1billion in a few weeks. -:)
They shouldn’t tell us how to use our land, and we shouldn’t tell them how to use theirs. Additionally — as others have noted — this sets a dangerous precedent: Will another nation next demand payment for not repurposing sites of important historical significance?
Last year, Biden may not have been fully aware of the extent to which the current Brazilian government has transformed Brazil into an environmental pariah, the world’s greatest destroyer of tropical forests and the foremost threat to the planet’s already precarious climate equilibrium. By now, as Biden’s climate summit gets under way, he will have been fully informed and repeatedly warned of the risk of making deals that could strengthen Bolsonaro’s government and allow it to further advance its destructive policies.
What the government is missing is not cash, but a commitment to the truth. It denied the existence of fires in the Amazon as the flames were burning. Brazilian news is saturated with scandals that show persistent government action to weaken environmental bodies, roll back legislation, and ignore international agreements. Two years ago, it dismissed the head of the INPE – the National Institute of Space Research – for the simple fact that the institution had compiled data on the rise of deforestation. Last week, it dismissed the head of the office of the federal police, who had led the largest investigation into the illegal extraction of wood in the history of the Amazon. It has replaced experienced civil servants with individuals without any forestry expertise in several departments, and it intends to effectively shut down ICMBio, Brazil’s foremost institution dedicated to the protection of natural reserves.
“Last year, Biden may not have been fully aware…”
Last year, Biden was NOT aware.
The rain forests are coming down no matter what. The same thing happened in the US in the 1800s. The eastern half of the US was coved in forest and it was all cut down. It happened in Europe a few hundred years earlier. Didn’t seem to hurt the planet too much.
It is Brazil’s forest to protect or destroy. Brazil doesn’t tell the United States what to do with its land. I hope they conserve it, but I’m not in any position to tell them what to do.
Honestly, yes we should pay it. The amazon rainforest provides everyone benefits, and brazil is entitled to raze it. It’s not fair for us to deny them a fair share of our productivity, if we are receiving a fair share of the benefits of their forest. And 1 billion is nothing, even if it came to that quarter trillion, that’s less than 5% of the ransom, oh sorry, emergency lending fund given to the banks for their ruining the economy in 2008.
We have trillions to police and bully the world, but not billions to preserve the environment? Gtfoh
I might be inclined to agree but it seems like he’s not being very sincere. He’s actually promoting the exact opposite. Would be nice if someone a little more credible was in charge. I get the underlying argument but he’s not even stepping up
Brazil may be saying how convenient it is for western economies who destroyed their environment in the quest for a higher living standard are hyocrites in telling Brazil they shouldn’t do the same. So in that regard he has a point..
Marcio Astrini, who heads the Climate Observatory, an environmental protection organization in Brazil, cautioned this week that Mr. Bolsonaro “wants new money with no real constraints,” adding, “This is not a trustworthy government.”
Seems nobody really trusts Bolsonaro who has cut funding to his own environmental agencies. I imagine he won’t have a lot of sympathy
Now back to your story , a bit of yellow jouranlism or hypberbole here? How about quote what’s really at issue?
Dow Jones) — Brazil is asking the U.S. to provide $1 billion to reduce deforestation in the Amazon by 40% in 12 months. That’s a bold offer by Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, who has reduced funding for environmental agencies while illegal logging increases. Environment Minister Ricardo Salles talked to Wall Street Journal reporters on April 9 to explain the government’s plan.
Mr. Salles said he is talking to U.S. officials about the need not only to beef up law enforcement in the jungle but also engage foreign governments and corporations to provide financial alternatives for the Amazon’s estimated 23 million residents so they can earn a living without cutting down trees. The Brazilian minister said his American counterparts share the same view.
Seems he’s saying we’re all on the same side, but he needs help with policing and transitioning his economy. Seems like the U.S. has the same issue domestically with say workers involved in the coal industry. I agree its a problem that every nation must deal with. Problem is he’s operating out from a credibility deficit
What are they doing with the forests? Lumber? I think $1b is not too much for Bill Gates to just pay it and there are plenty of other western charities focused on saving the rain forests.
Logging (illegal logging) is a part of the story, but the main goal is to put the land into cultivation for agriculture…..soybeans in particular.
It would be interesting to see if American agriculture is financially supporting attempts to curb this deforestation. After all, more soybean-producing land could result it lower profits for US soybean companies.
… but its not very good land, and they don’t take care of it, so they just cut more every few years
In time, it will all be desert.
Brazil may be saying how convenient it is for western economies who destroyed their environment in the quest for a higher living standard are hyocrites in telling Brazil they shouldn’t do the same. So in that regard he has a point…. That’s what I was going to answer, till I realized you were being sensationlistic and engging in hyperbole
Now back to your story , a bit of yellow jouranlism or hypberbole here? How about quote what’s really at issue?
Dow Jones) — Brazil is asking the U.S. to provide $1 billion to reduce deforestation in the Amazon by 40% in 12 months. That’s a bold offer by Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, who has reduced funding for environmental agencies while illegal logging increases. Environment Minister Ricardo Salles talked to Wall Street Journal reporters on April 9 to explain the government’s plan.
Mr. Salles said he is talking to U.S. officials about the need not only to beef up law enforcement in the jungle but also engage foreign governments and corporations to provide financial alternatives for the Amazon’s estimated 23 million residents so they can earn a living without cutting down trees. The Brazilian minister said his American counterparts share the same view.
Seems he’s saying we’re all on the same side, but he needs help with policing and transitioning his economy. Seems like the U.S. has the same issue domestically with say workers involved in the coal industry. I agree its a problem that every nation must deal with
I hate that I have to look to alternate reporting to get a clearer view of what transpired.
Marcio Astrini, who heads the Climate Observatory, an environmental protection organization in Brazil, cautioned this week that Mr. Bolsonaro “wants new money with no real constraints,” adding, “This is not a trustworthy government.”
Seems nobody really trusts Bolsonaro who has cut funding to his own environmental agencies. I imagine he won’t have a lot of sympathy
I’d delete this but the site won’t allow me to
Like giving Bolsonaro money would actually keep his cronies from their slash and burn tactics.
Don’t be naive. They’d just take the money and keep doing the same thing.
Google “Tragedy of the Commons”.
So….yeah, I expect Biden to give them the money….I’d be very impressed if he doesn’t fall for it.
I’d like to visit the Amazon again….maybe after COVID….if there is anything like an “after COVID”…..beginning to look like a permanent problem, i.e. another “predicament”.
We have traded our problems for predicaments. The difference is that predicaments can’t be fixed.
he could try though (enforce his mandate/diktak to do this or that;
but the Amazonians would just shoot those poisonous arrow things
at his men
but Bolsonaro wouldn’t have the authority to send people around
the jungle telling them what and when they can and cannot burn;
in the same way that he cant send people up the Amazon to tell them to wear a face-mask
Is the comment section moderated?
Well, developed countries are rich (in conjunction with other reasons, obviously) because they accumulated capital using (and abusing by today standards) natural resources. So why in hell do you have the moral stand to prevent some empoverished country to at least attemp to do the same? It ‘s easy to go green for societies that doesn´t have half of the population living in what they would consider sub-human conditions. All that coal and oil burned by the US,UK, France and Germany, all those forest that went away in Europe… no one is to blame now, but it was the foundation of what developed nations are.
Bolsonaro’s just telling Biden to put his money where his mouth is otherwise fuck off.
Biden doesn’t have that kind of money.
I should have said our money, not his.
Hell No!
There would be no end of demands for money from countries everywhere.
Plus he doesn’t even say what the 1 billion would be used for. Likely to line his pocket and not for the Brazilian people or rain forests anyway.
We ARE going to pay one way or the other, but this is naked blackmail (GREENMAIL?) and it seems to me that submitting to this corrupt Brazilian fascist is just paying for it twice. And really when you stop to think about it, a billion bucks is such a small drop in the slow motion environmental catastrophe that is 8 billion people on a planet that at our current technological level can support about 2 billion at most, it represents less than nothing on the scale of what would be needed to “fix” the unfixable.
So, I say no, never negotiate with or submit to kidnappers and terrorists. Give me a billion bucks or I will tear out the rainforests. If he COULD save the rainforests then he would anyway with or without the ransom, it is in his own self interests. Even if we could trust this slippery snake and we cannot, I still would not pay it because it would just kick off other ransom demands from every two bit backwater “shithole” run by corrupt dictators and fascists. Putin demanding money or admission into policy making halls of power or he will log off then entire landscape of the Siberian forests. Kenya demanding money or they will look the other way as poachers kill the last elephants. There will be no end to it.
The hard truth that NOBODY is willing to admit is that there is no economically feasible answer to having this many more humans on the planet than the planet can accommodate. At current levels of human technology we are so overpopulated and burning through the world’s reserves of everything that the environmental collapse is inevitable no matter what we now do or spend. The only real question left is can the planet recover after man? Or, will we have poisoned it and made it so hostile to life that it no longer has nay carrying capacity at all. All I know is I do not want to live to see it when it comes.
So, there are currently 8 billion people who are living longer than anyone before them. And you’re saying the planet can only support 2 billion?
Very true. The issue here is not money, but what is known as the “agency problem” for you scholarly types. The chances are high the Brazilian leader will take the money and do nothing. It reminds me of what I read about Roman generals once, often, the looting of a defeated city was actually part of the reason some legionnaires signed up for service. The generals were powerless to prevent them from some looting, even if they wanted to, it was part of the deal. The ‘agency-principal’ problem.
S1 billion. Which is what fraction of a percent of the money created so far year. Bolsonaro sounds like an easy mark, maybe offer a trillion to buy the whole Amazon. Will take about 1 second to wish it into existence.
Another option would be to tell him which bunch of generals the US will back if he doesn’t do what he is told
Billions to line the pockets of corrupt politicians. The burning will not stop. Unfortunately corruption and scamming is embedded in the Brazilian DNA.
Corruption and scamming is in the Brazilian DNA. They’ll take the billion and line the pockets of the politicians. The burning will continue regardless.