Absurd conspiracy theories never go away. People believe BS because BS is sexy or more exciting or whatever. You tell me. 
As expected, when I wrote Nord Stream Pipeline Blowback: Germany to Stop All New Aid to Ukraine the Armstrong and Hersh supporters would come out of the woodwork, and they did.
Comments ranged from unprofessional divers could not do this, the ship could not carry the required amount of explosives, and they couldn’t possibly locate the pipeline at that depth. Another asked “where was the decompression chamber?”
None of these respondents bothered to read anything easily findable debunking all of these lines of thought.
And on top of it Hersh made a number of serious mistakes. I wrote part of this up as an addendum but decided to do this follow-up post.
Blasting the Hersh BS Sky High
Please consider All at sea: Seymour Hersh and his Nord Stream sabotage story
“Any serious student of the event would know that you cannot anchor a sailboat in waters that are 260 feet deep.”
Though factually correct, this is a silly thing to say: the boat wouldn’t need to anchor,
Hersh makes a factually correct statement but one that is 100% meaningless.
Medium writer Brian Whitaker goes over most of the BS about a tiny little 49-foot boat couldn’t do this or that.
Hersh: ““You cannot just walk off the street with a fake passport and lease a boat.”
More BS.
Whitaker blasts that out of the water too.
The captain and the divers would need to show proof of their competence, but it’s unclear why the expert thinks this would be a problem. If you want to blow up pipelines it’s best to have competent people to do it. They wouldn’t want to have their real names on the certificates, but for people who know how to get false passports getting the extra documentation shouldn’t be too difficult.
Actually, it’s very clear why Hersh would do this. He sells conspiracy theories.
This reminds me of all the BS about Lee Harvey Oswald could not walk to the location in the allotted time or could not have fired the shots in the allotted time. Then many people did both.
Decompression BS
A reader just asked “Where was the decompression chamber?”
The short answer is none was needed despite allegations by many.
Brian Whitaker discussed that in a follow-up article Nord Stream sabotage: a look at the evidence so far
There have been repeated claims that it would not be feasible to carry out 80-metre dives from such a small boat, since the Andromeda had no space for a decompression chamber. However, a mention of helium in the intelligence report about the Ukrainian plan points to an alternative solution. By breathing a mixture of oxygen and helium and pausing at intervals while returning to the surface, the need for a decompression chamber could be avoided. A Dutch military website describes the process when used by navy divers.
In an interview with the Ostsee-Zeitung, Achim Schloeffel, an “extreme diver” and trainer, suggested the difficulties have been exaggerated. The pipeline would be easy to locate from sea charts or with an echo sounder costing around $3,000. The location could be marked by dropping a 15kg weight attached to a line with a marker buoy on the other end and divers would follow the line down to the exact spot. Explosives could be guided down the line in the same way. The boat would continue sailing and return to the marker buoy to pick up the divers when they surfaced
“Anyone who has completed level two in our diving school would be able to do this,” Schloeffel told the paper. “Especially for those who regularly go wreck diving, a dive to the pipeline would not be a problem for them.
Regardless of that, the most popular (and most believed) theory on social media is that the US blew up Nord Stream. This is mainly the result of an article by the American journalist Seymour Hersh claiming that US Navy divers carried out the attack with assistance from Norway.
More Mistakes by Hersh
Please consider More mistakes about Norwegian interference in the Nord Stream sabotage translated to English from Norwegian.
American journalist Seymour Hersh claims the latter. On 8 February, he published an article in which he writes in detail about how the Norwegian defense forces are said to have contributed to carrying out the sabotage attacks in the Danish and Swedish economic zone in the Baltic Sea.
In the past month, the article has been spread all over the world, including via Norwegian alternative websites.
Among other things, Hersh mentions Norwegian naval bases that do not exist and ships that, by all accounts, have been in Norway during the period in question. He also writes that Jens Stoltenberg was already a trusted source for American intelligence as a teenager.
Ship data, satellite images and documentation that Faktisk.no has reviewed show, among other things, that:
- None of the Norwegian minesweepers of the Alta class took part in the NATO exercise in the Baltic Sea.
- Satellite images confirm that one vessel was at Haakonsvern naval base three days after BALTOPS 22 had started.
- Satellite images, ship data and images suggest that the second vessel underwent maintenance at Umoe shipyard.
- The Norwegian P-8A Poseidon aircraft were not operational at the time Hersh writes that such an aircraft was on a “routine flight” over the Baltic Sea. Avinor informs Faktisk.no that no P-8 aircraft took off from Evenes airport on 25 or 26 September. One must also assume that the aircraft would have been visible on the radars of several countries that monitor the airspace over the Baltic Sea.
One of the details that many Norwegian readers have probably stumbled upon in Hersh’s article is the section where he explains why Norway was the perfect partner for the USA.
NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg is described as a dedicated anti-communist who has been a trusted source for US intelligence ever since the Vietnam War.
The Vietnam War took place in the years 1957-1975. Jens Stoltenberg was born on 16 March 1959 and was therefore a teenager when the war was over.
Hersh has also published a map that places Norwegian naval bases at Evenes, Sola and Rygge, and air bases in Tromsø and Ramsund. Hersh clarifies that the map “is not accurate”. That is an understatement.
There is much more debunking in the above article as well, with details.
This will not convince many, and perhaps no one. People who believe BS generally stick to believing BS.
The Real Story of Nord Stream
The Wall Street Journal comments A Drunken Evening, a Rented Yacht: The Real Story of the Nord Stream Pipeline Sabotage
Occam’s Razor
I am one of the biggest fans of Occam’s Razor around. Occam’s Razor proposes the simplest explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be true.
After debunking nonsense about the amount of explosives needed, scuba training needed, ease at finding the pipeline, and decompression chambers what’s left?
Competing Theories
- A group of dedicated Ukrainians rented a boat, located the pipeline from published documents and a $3,000 finder, used high-power, timed explosives (traces found on the boat), timed stops to eliminate decompression, and blew up the pipelines. They accidentally hit one pipeline twice and missed the fourth. As amateurs, they failed to remove all evidence of explosives on the ship. The WSJ spoke to four senior Ukrainian defense and security officials who either participated in or had direct knowledge of the plot. All of them said the pipelines were a legitimate target in Ukraine’s war of defense against Russia.
- The US in conjunction with Norwegian defense forces, blew up the pipelines, and planted evidence pointing to Ukraine. The US and Norway forces were not competent enough to get all four pipelines (or missed one on purpose to deflect suspicion). Meanwhile, evidence contradicts the idea that Norwegian defense forces were in the area. As professionals, they failed to remove all evidence of explosives on the ship on purpose. Failure to remove all of the evidence was part of the plot to make it look like amateurs did this. The operation involved minesweepers and Poseidon aircraft that were not even in service, and no radar picked up the aircraft, or the radar is fake involving still more accomplices. The WSJ is lying or complicit in the US coverup. And finally the fact that Zelensky has not denied the WSJ account is meaningless or US blackmail.
To deflect the idea the US warned Ukraine not to do this, one reader suggests “Yea, right – the CIA warned Zelensky. Don’t you mean they ordered Zelensky or the next tranche of blood money would be halted?”
The above idea adds even more complexity and obvious contradictions to US Norway idea.
Now, you tell me, which one of those competing versions makes more sense. If you still believe #2 you are hopelessly delusional.
My guess: If you were hopelessly conspiratorial before, you likely still are. Perhaps I am wrong. Did I convince anyone?
Shame Shame
Zelensky approved the pipeline attack according to the WSJ. And he has not denied it. That alone should settle matters.
Shame on the US for causing this entire mess. It started with US involvement in 2014.
But I do not approve of Russia’s actions. So shame on Russia. But the US knew Russia’s red lines and ignored them.
Shame on UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson for telling Zelensky not to take a Peace Deal shortly after the invasion. Johnson pressured Kyiv into continuing the fight. David Arahamiya, the leader of Ukraine’s ruling party confirmed in an interview.
Finally, shame on Zelensky for not accepting a good deal when he had one.
Yeah, there is plenty of shame!
There are cult conspiracies everywhere, and plenty of cult morons who believe them. This comment section is chock-full of cult morons who follow cult websites like those from convicted felon Armstrong. And as can be seen here; no one (not even Mish) can convince them of the facts, if they don’t fit with their cult narrative.
“…And as can be seen here; no one (not even Mish) can convince them…”
Exactly, so why engage with them?
Which is why I ignore the cult morons “most” of the time. On the previous hosting site for this blog, I used the IGNORE feature so I wouldn’t have to even see their cult comments.
However, I can understand why Mish is more likely to engage with them.
OF course everyone who disagrees with you about anything especially about things you can’t possibly have any personal knowledge about the subject you are posting, on is some kind of cultist or paid troll.
OK it was a complicated operation. But numerous resources show it was doable.
And as long as we are discussing complication….
Look at this complicated tangle of bullshit one has to believe to accept the alternative…
“It’s easier to believe the Germans fabricated the story to justify abandoning Ukraine.”
It’s easy to believe except the Dutch broke the story and Norway blasted it sky high.
I added this to the amazing BS one has to believe to accept the Hersh story.
The Dutch, Germans, CIA, Poland, were all in on this. And why? Just so the Germans could justify not giving further aid to Ukraine.
Amazing!!
When you throw away the bullshit, what’s left is the truth no matter how unlikely that seemed at first.
I applaud your efforts to explain the facts.
One of the big differences between actual conspiracies and idiotic fake ones is in the actual ones the motivation is easy to spot and fairly direct, it’s, ok, they did this because it made them money or it advanced this interest.
With fake ones, the motivation is like 3 derivatives from actual self interest of the parties and has to account for several “but this makes no sense for them” with convoluted explanations that elevates some 3rd-string interest ahead of a really obvious one that is undermined.
this is an example of that. the risk is just not worth the reward.
At best, you have documented that Ukrainians could have blown up the pipelines. This is a far cry from showing that they, and not the Americans, did it.
That Many of hersh’s details may be incorrect does not refute his central claim that us Norway worked together to do the deed
Breathe Dave….. breathe.
Joe Biden promised “there will be no Nordstream” !
He slso stated Trump needs to be in the “bullseye”
Apparently he may still have a lil clout…
Yeah – Let’s start taking Joe Biden’s Dementia rants as prophesies
I doubt either of your options is true, there are problems with both. The idea that military units are not capable of incompetence is also delusional.
I’ve appreciated Armstrong’s commentary for decades, but use my own analysis in (especially geo-political/military) research. So let’s look at facts:
The CIA leaked via NYT that they’ve been in Ukraine since 2014Ukraine had a plan to destroy the pipeline since 2014President Biden promised to destroy the pipeline if Putin attacked Ukraine.Targeting and imagery data have been supplied by the USA & NATO, probably since 2014The Dutch got wind of the operation and informed the Germans, who informed the CIA (reportedly). This means all European intelligence agencies were probably notified. Whether these agencies have released all information regarding the operation and it’s backers is not known.The CIA then said “don’t do it”, which may have been them covering their own ass in the face of European allies became aware of this economically destructive operation.A yacht seen by fellow yachters in Sweden with a Ukrainian flag flying somehow escaped notice from European intelligence and police, along with respective maritime patrols AND US Navy warships maneuvering in the Baltic.President Biden just got pushed out the door by a ‘largely peaceful’ Democrat Party putsch.President Biden’s glaring foreign policy failure during his tenure has been Ukraine.Democrat nominees Harris & Walz have been very quiet on the failure to achieve strategic outcomes in Ukraine – it definitely isn’t a vote winner.Shortly after Biden’s retirement, a Washington mouthpiece suddenly releases an article to say “it wasn’t us”! Putin – a relatively transparent actor in this conflict – calls BS on that one.Occam’s razor indeed.
This is total Bullshit.
Biden never said he would “destroy” the pipeline – He said he would stop it. And Russia halted gas before Ukraine blew it up.
Since when do people take Biden seriously when he has no idea what he is saying?
Finally, and importantly Zelensky does not deny the WSJ report.
So get a grip on reality.
Your response says everything I need to know. goodbye
What a silly article. Biden literally said the pipeline would be attacked if Putin invaded Ukraine. That’s all you need to know. Hersh won Pulitzer prize and is well respected journalist with impeccable work ethic
Well Mish, a conspiracy according to a US criminal code is two or more persons conspiring to do an illegal act with or without an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. If there are deaths involved as a consequence with civil rights violations due to the illegal social consensus, the death penalty is allowed. If you add legal acts to that conspiracy definition, the whole world is an event horizon of non stop consensual conspiracies since the advent of Australopithecus. Fortunately real science is not consensus or politics or Google. Funny how some conspiracies turn out to be true. Have a nice conspiracy day Mish. .
Further Mish, everything the officers did during the George Floyd arrest was legal and according to department policy. Had physically detained George stopped breathing while they were waiting for the ambulance to arrive the officers would have begun CPR at a rate of one chest compression to five rescue breaths until the ambulance arrived, but CPR was not required for talking conscious George. George was alive in the ambulance and later died at ER of a drug overdose as the gamed autopsy showed. But, thanks to a neo-Stalinist show trial the officers were convicted of killing George Floyd while having white based thought crimes doing their job, and all were denied a change of venue to boot with separate show trials and judge and jury shopping, unless pleading guilty. Conspiracy in action Mish. . . . .
You say “Occam’s razor” well what about cui bono ? Not only did we have the president himself say that “…there will be an end to Nordstream 2…” along with Victoria Nuland commenting “…Nordstream 2 will not move forward…” and then after the destruction, former Polish minister Sikorsky cryptically thanking the US, but we’re supposed to believe your “thorough debunking” (or whatever you commented earlier about us “conspiracy theorists”). Haha… okay, and I’ve got a bridge I’ll make you a great deal on 🙂
I guess you’ll next be telling us the US didn’t profit by the destruction…
I used to hold your opinions in high regard. Your post “Now, you tell me, which one of those competing versions makes more sense. If you still believe #2 you are hopelessly delusional.” suggest to me that you are either entering into Alzheimer territory or for personal reasons unknown to me, you want to push a totally absurd “Alice in Wonderland” narrative.
Oil and Natural gas prices in U.S. at unbelievable low levels. Germany was the biggest loser in the destruction of the pipeline.
Isn’t Germany in recession?
It is.
this reminds me of Free Press, whose authors for the most part take a skeptical, slightly right of center anti-mainstream approach that are eminently reasonable, while almost all of the people that comment are far right and believe anything that makes the left look bad, like MAGA election lies.
Must be disappointing to Mish that so many of his readers believe the Nord conspiracy theories, and the clearer it is debunked the more they believe it.
Maybe commenters are a tiny percentage of readership, one hopes.
Thanks!
Yes very very frustrating
I end up banning a bunch of people for saying or implying I am an idiot.
I fully expect Wiki to rotate it’s story 360 around politics. Depending of course of which way the wind blows.
Ukie’s did it I say
No … did it
of course it was CIA
—
so confused
however timing was perfect to make EU pauper countries
Temperature, depth, currents, explosives against hardened targets in an area where any submariner breaking wind is detected by NATO. Yeah, five recreational divers pulled off job without assistance. Please.
And from a sailboat! While ignoring the hundred of miles of available target which was in open territory rather than a location which can be seen with binoculars from the beach. And which was identified later according to the story because they were flying a small Ukrainian flag.
This is a good debunk of Hersh’s how and who. But I view this event like a 12-year old’s science fair project. We all know the kid (Ukraine) had help from the Parents (USA).
The simplest story is the U.S. destroyed it. Brandon warned it would end, and it did. And the sucker Germans allowed their “ally” to destroy their own infrastructure (co-owned with Russia) delivering cheap energy, who then offered to replace it with much more expensive LNG by ship. What a bargain!
Occam’s razor cut through the BS and found motive and a big mouth to boot. Oh, but watch out for those crazy conspiracy theorists. Please do!
Shame on the US for causing this entire mess. It started with US involvement in 2014.
—
Putin seems to have changed his mind on a lot before any US involvement in 2014. To be sure..this all started with Putin and not the US.
https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/accepting-nato-aspirations-denazifying-20-years-putins-changing-views-ukraine
Early into his first term as an elected president in 2000-2004, Putin radiated optimism about what he believed would be a Euro-centric, or even an Atlantic-centric, future for Russia and some of its post-Soviet neighbors. It might be difficult to fathom today, but, in the early 2000s, Putin discussed Russia’s possible accession to NATO with Lord Robertson and reportedly Bill Clinton, and pursued a partnership with the alliance. Around the same time, Putin continued his predecessor’s policy of harmonizing Russia’s laws and regulations with the EU’s—even viewing Ukraine’s would-be membership in the bloc as a “positive factor.” “Of course, Russia is a very diverse country, but we are part of Western European culture,” Putin said in 2000. “No matter where our people live, in the Far East or in the south, we are Europeans.”
But, as historian Andrei Zorin recently observed, “every turn toward isolationism in Russia has happened, at least in the 20th century, after yet another failed attempt at ‘Europeanization.’” Putin, at the very start of his presidency 22 years ago, seemed to foresee such a prospect, sending an implicit warning to the West: “If they push us away, then we will be forced to find allies and reinforce ourselves. What else can we do?”
Indeed, as the years passed, and color revolutions and NATO expansion scrambled Russia’s traditional sphere of influence, Putin’s optimism dimmed. Hope for a fruitful, multipolar future on terms sought by Moscow gave way to frustration with what he saw as Western vilification of Russia, fears of sabotage and worries over Russia’s diminishing role on the global stage. This gradual hardening can be seen in many facets of Putin’s public speech but is perhaps most vividly illustrated by his views of NATO. In May 2002 he said Ukraine was entitled to decide on its own whether to join NATO and that he did not see such a decision as one that would “cloud” Russian-Ukrainian relations. But by late 2004—the year Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia joined NATO, and when Ukraine’s Orange Revolution had hoisted to power the pro-Western Viktor Yushchenko—Putin’s mood had changed: “If Ukraine were to join the EU this would be a positive factor that, unlike NATO expansion, would help strengthen the system of international relations,” the Kremlin paraphrased him as saying.
“Started in 2014”. Started after WWII with US support of former Nazi allies in Ukraine as hedge against USSR.
The fact that Kennedy’s skull was blown out the back of his head, tends to support being shot from the front, not the back, where Oswald was positioned.
Of course Oswald’s deer in the headlight demeanor means he didn’t know he was supposed to be the patsy..
If you beleive the Warren Commission report, I’ve got some land in florida I’d like you to consider investing in…
We know Ukraine is a proxy war, we know the 5 eyes is supporting Ukraine as a proxy against Russia, why is it a surprize that Russia didn’t blow their own pipeline up? – which was the official story. The UK is supplying weapons,support, etc for the Ukraine excursion into Russia, they seem to want WW3 pretty bad.
It doesn’t really matter who’s finger prints were on the gun that killed Kennedy, and it doesn’t really matter who blew up the pipeline, it matters who is behind it and why.
Hersh is like Mearsheimer… Both way out over their skis for years. They earned kudos for being ahead of the curve on a few consequential issues, and have been living off that earned credibility and overextending their reach and knowledge.
They guess, write as though their guesses are facts, and argue with voracity. Kind of like Kamala.
I often disagree with you on political lines Mish, but on this you have swayed me. I am still not convinced that the CIA is not somehow involved, perhaps at least in convincing the Ukrainians to pursue it.
On a different note, I am a huge fan of your economic observations, please keep up the great work.
I like how you phrased this. “I don’t know if they did this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did.”
I’d like that slogan on a t-shirt please….
The notion that “Ukraine” itself catalyzed a Baltic maritime operation or independently sabotaged the NordStream pipeline is ridiculous & void of all credibility.
Feel free to pick-apart the Hersh/WSJ narrative, but debunking a few inconsequential details does not expunge the obvious truth: the US and/or UK were the primary actors in facilitating the pipeline’s destruction.
Germany’s indictment of Ukraine proves nothing except Germany’s own invertebrate nature & unwillingness to confront/challenge its’ american masters.
NATO solidarity is a fiction, and NATO itself is both obsolete & irretrievably corrupt. This is the lesson of NordStream’s destruction.
Ukraine is headed for extinction, and their “supporters” are to blame, period. What little evidence of democracy that existed in Ukraine was erased in in 2014 @ the CIA/US State Dept.-induced Maidan Coup.
it seems to be a giant money laundering scheme. War is a racket, Smedley Butler.
“War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.”
Smedley Butler
Mish, your best reporting and analytic skills are in finance. Stick with what you KNOW.
My belief from the start has been that Nordstream was done by the US and/or UK. Not having diving experience myself, I asked on another forum for comments on your analysis. An answer said:
“Ludicrous nonsense.
First: depth is too great for diving with regular air. Heliox, or at least nitrox needed, and those cannot be supplied by a compressor on the boat. All of the gasses needed would have to be transported from land. The sailboat would be packed with gas cylinders.
Second: the charges used in the demolition were large, as in tons of explosives. Where would these be stored in an already packed sailboat?
Third: setting the explosives would take many hours, if not a couple days, for a pair of divers. They would need a reliable platform to work from with good station-keeping abilities. A sailboat is the exact opposite of that, with keel and rigging that put it at the mercy of currents and winds. Even drifting a few dozen meters complicates divers’ work significantly.
Forget the sailboat nonsense. It is beyond laughable.”
Sorry Mish. While I highly value your independent thinking on all matters, I’m not pursuaded by you on this one.
Please read the rebuttals instead or repeating easily debunked nonsense.
Every one of your points was rebutted in detail.
All you offer is the same nonsense repeated elsewhere on depth, amount of explosive, current etc.
Read these:
https://brian-whit.medium.com/all-at-sea-seymour-hersh-and-his-nord-stream-sabotage-story-b467e17a1728
https://brian-whit.medium.com/nord-stream-sabotage-a-look-at-the-evidence-so-far-311a615171d
https://brian-whit.medium.com/nord-stream-sabotage-a-look-at-the-evidence-so-far-311a615171d
What do you have to offer other than you don’t believe them but do believe the most convoluted concoction of idea to make an impossible story with known errors fit. And on top of it all Zelensky has not even denied the WSJ report!!
What detailed knowledge do you have to refute those links (not that every statement needs to be correct) but those links blast major holes in the Hersh nonsense.
Guess what: Bullshit sells – That is all this boils down to if you bother to study the setup at all instead of repeating refuted nonsense.
Ukraine/Russia about to be a big embarrassment to current administration during election cycle. Trying to concoct stories to cast total blame on Ukrainian leadership for failures.
German economy will not recover from imbecilic act by US.
US willing to fight to the last Ukrainian and destroy German economy to “win” the Cold War.
Professional job, please.
The WSJ article could very well have been written by the Babylon Bee and no doubt would make a great comedy movie along the lines of Dr. Strangelove. The German people have become more discontent with their governments funding/assistance of Ukraine…..bingo we now have proof that Ukraine was responsible for NS attack and now Germany will take a hard line……how convenient.
I agree the article was “laughable” but who knows? Things like this happen all the time when friends rent a boat and drink too much.
Thanks Mike. I appreciate the clarification. I think you make great points.
As a general rule, people believe what they want (are predisposed) to believe. Beliefs are like values–highly personal. Try convincing someone who is religious that religion is a ‘crock.’ Then, tell them that Quantum Physics has a growing contingent going beyond the ‘all that matters is matter’ of science, to incorporate metaphysics (non-matter).
Now, contemplate why conspiracy theories exist, keeping in mind people believe what they want to believe. Such people go beyond the mainstream belief, including the experts who inform that belief. Anyone remember Covid–the Wuhan wet market? People who looked at a map and saw the proximity of the wet market to…. blah blah blah belonged to a CULT–according to the comment of PapaDave above!
The key lies in our ability to critically think about information, and to open our minds to alternatives; not necessarily to accept them 100%. The closed mind is like a closed book, just a block or wood–to misquote a Chinese proverb.
I will say one thing about these latest Nord Stream 2 revelations…. The timing seems rather convenient.
I’ve been down to 300 ft on air in a dive chamber with a group. We were supposed to recite our names, no one could do it. Helium is not used in breathing mixes to eliminate decompression obligations, but to reduce the narcosis caused by nitrogen under high pressure. Those Nordstream divers would have required multiple different surface supplied breathing mixes to spend any time working at 260 ft.
Yes, my Uncle is a certified Diver, professionally and he wrote, for whatever this is worth, that same point you Made, Jhrodd. DEEP DEEP DIVES are technical. So, at the very least Mish’s belief system DOES require us to also believe that they would use a SAILBOAT and not a powerboat, to pull off the stunt. There are too many holes on both sides and as people are wont to say:
“The truth lies somewhere in between.”
Then, my Uncle surprised me with my own logic: WHO BENEFITS THE MOST from the ensuring LPG SALES?
AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL!
Submarine support vehicle for a dive like this would be very handy and a couple navy seals trained in underwater demolition is a always a plus when committing deep water sabotage of your business rivals.
Eyes in the sky satellite support is quite nice as well for knowing when the coast is clear..
Which makes the operation happening within the exclusive economic zones of the two allies who could be counted on cooperate seem to be at least an interesting aspect.
It seems far fetched to me. I don’t know how much time they would have spent at that depth, but a saturated diver would need 4 days of decompression. We had teams in a habitat in fifty feet of water for two weeks that required more than 24 hours to decompress in a chamber. They were research scientists and when working outside the habitat were shadowed by 2 safety divers at all times.
If the CIA was not involved in the sabotage of Nord Stream, it was the only part of what is going on in Ukraine that they were not involved in. We know the US through Victoria Nuland, the Bidens, and the CIA has been involved in everything that has happened there since at least 2014 and probably long before. If the US didn’t do it, they knew about it before hand and could have easily stopped it, probably with just a word.
Professional divers going that deep on a rented pleasure boat with no decompression chamber available if something goes wrong? That’s the old kamikaze spirit, but the wrong country.
That’s where I need to suspend disbelief a bit too much. It’s easier to believe the Germans fabricated the story to justify abandoning Ukraine.
“It’s easier to believe the Germans fabricated the story to justify abandoning Ukraine.”
It’s easy to believe except the Dutch broke the story and Norway blasted it sky high.
I need to add this to the amazing BS one has to believe to accept the Hersh story.
The Dutch, Germans, CIA, Poland, were all in on this. And why? Just so the Germans could justify not giving further aid to Ukraine.
Amazing!!
Sorry Mish but you are delusional in believing that Hersh-Armstrong is on one side of Occams Razor and the WSJ on the other with WSJ the most likely.
Put Hersh-Armstrong and WSJ all together as misdirection on one side of the razor and the real truth on the other. Now finding out what is the real truth may never be fully known but likely includes kernels of truth in the Hersh-Armstrong and WSJ claims and 101 possibilities when you consider all the “who benefits” if the pipeline is destroyed.
Blowing the pipeline is of little benefit to Ukraine and a huge risk yet many including Mish think somehow Ukraine was the main beneficiary of blowing up the pipeline.
The risks include:
-Germany losing vital gas getting angry at Ukraine and cutting off all aid within days of the pipelines destruction.
– Russia stopping all gas supplies to Europe through the pipelines going through Ukraine under the pretext that no pipeline could be safe. Thus cutting Ukraine off from significant transit fees.
-Russia doing a payback by rescinding the promise they made to not assassinate Zelinsky.
-Russia deciding to escalate from a limited military operation to full mobilisation to crush Ukraine .
And what did Ukraine gain by blowing up the pipeline?
-Some morale boosting PR
-A minor drop in Russian gas exports.
The only real beneficiaries are US LNG exporter, gas futures speculators, LNG shipping companies and of course arms suppliers and ??? (Deep State or other bad actors).
Cui Bono for the win..Just like LBJ and the CIA, what did Oswald get out of the JFK shooting except a fatal abdominal wound that opened his stomach and closed his mouth forever.
Next Mish will tell us that it was Ukraine that flew the invisible plane into Building 7.
I truly get tired of explaining WTC Building 7–47-storey with electrical substation on the lower floor spanned by transfer beams–essentially a Vierendeel truss structure. Debris from the the North tower penetrated the exterior wall of Building 7 and ignited fires on the lower floors. Given the shortage of water for firefighting, and the already high death toll, it had low priority. FIRES BURNED THROUGH THE AFTERNOON. Extreme temperatures were reached. Flames shot horizontally out of openings–think blast furnace. The structure lasted until 5:20 pm.
But that means Whoopi Goldberg and the other clapping seals from The View were wrong and don’t understand physics or facts or reality.
That just can’t be.
so how did they report building 7 falling before it fell by at least an hour? A whole lot of laws of physic and time were repealed on that fateful day. Why did the plane hit the section of the Pentagon where the audit records were stored? it was a very convienent tragedy for elements of the government, and how did they happen to have the Patriot Act written, ready and waiting to be signed into law
Cui Bono…………
Uhhh…..what part of the Pentagon could you fly a plane into without destroying something or someone that had an interesting amount of significance to something somewhere? The file room seems to be pretty low on the totem pole on that scale.
Biden said he would get rid of it. All I need to know.
That puts a bullseye on it.
Assuming the Ukraine’s did the deed, they have defacto attacked EU territory. Should that not illicit NATO to war against the attacker?
They didn’t but yeah
Mish, why argue with people you don’t know? Heck, I don’t even argue with people I do know. You do you is my philosophy.
Let the knuckleheads speak thier gibberish. PapaDave does the same thing. He gets all worked up over some fool disagreeing or spouting off something he deems a conspiracy. Well the fool accomplished thier mission (who’s the fool now). You’re a smart guy. Don’t fall for it. Your time would be better spent improving yourself than arguing with fools.
People on the standard American diet suffer from an elevated homocysteine level that destroy their minds. They kickstart their day with coffee, sugar, junk food and Bibi to stimulate themselves. Bibi elevates the stress hormones adrenalin and cortisol and that make them feel normal. They get caught in a vicious cycle of stress and fatigue. When coffee and sugar aren’t good enough they have to think about all the things that go wrong in the world. Ten min of Israel killing innocent Palestinians women and babies jumpstart their days. High cortisol level cause heart attacks, strokes and belly fat. Reduce your homocysteine level to protect your brains. Consume carbs with fiber feed your gut. Don’t be obsessed.
Is Bibi in the room with you right now?
Michael, I have been living half time in Southern Europe, AND: they start their days with Cafe con Leche with sweets (In Portugal, Pastel de nata’s with Cafe com Leite’). Thus, that diet you hang on Americans is consumed across the entire WEST.
Then, in Germany, the entire day is spent guzzling Beer or Ales. Don’t harp on Americans and their diets.
And, by the way, we begin our days with Black Java and protein.
Bacon and eggs is still the law where I live. Toast with butter if i need some carbs.. Fat and protein will keep you alive, carbs just turn into belly fat in the modern lack of physical effort world. Though a nice plate of pasta is great every now and then, just wouldn’t try to live on it long term..
You beat me to the Pasteis de Belem com um galao in the morning.
A careless yachtsman threw a lit durry overboard, and,…..
Is this a joke?
The “CIA” and the United States blew up the pipeline obviously
Biden SAID we were going to blow up the pipeline
The WSJ, the Murdochs and all of their properties are now part of the “CIA” media and utterly and completely worthless. NO corporate media are to be believed about anything
Hersch gets some things wrong. But the Gilligans Island story is utterly laughable
Yes, Tom, and let’s not forget that Mish’s entire econ lines of reasoning are based upon B.S. econ numbers that never hold up and are always revised and yet we have to read that shit here daily.
Yes, I know, Mish knows this but then in some articles he seems to display US GOVERNMENT/FED data as if they are all real.
It is hard to take at times.
He also believed the vaccines were safe and effective, because the government told him so.
Garbage in, garbage out. Be it official data or WSJ articles or the court of an occupied country.
Who knows what really happened? Between the war propagandist and their lap dogs in the media I don’t believe anything they say. These are the same people who have been telling us that Biden is competent, Ukraine is winning and the economy is strong and resilient.
The truth lies out there and we are not in on the truth.
The truth is the 1st casualty of war, and we’ve been at war since the end of world war II. 1947 brought the birth of the CIA, they practiced overthrowing foreign governments, until they got good enough to overthrow the US government. Compare the USA pre WWII and now, its an entirely different Kingdom, only the name has been kept the same.
My question to Mike Shedlock is who or which group at Cabinet level is setting US Foreign policy?
Which group has overseen the eastward Creep of NATO contravening the pledges made to Gorbachev, since the fall of Soviets?
Isolating Europe from reliance upon Russian energy is a clear policy objective of one group of people at the center of this Ukraine confrontation with Russia. Or do you think that getting Ukraine aligned with NATO interests was not designed to directly confront Russia in its own backyard?
A bunch of drunks got it together to put on the swim fins and go into the cold deep murky waters of Nord Stream, plant and set off high explosives on a whim, resolves the prior questions is what we are expected to believe.
Hersh is getting old and he doesn’t have access to the sources he used to have. They are all either retired or dead. I don’t pay attention to him anymore.
The real story will not be known for thirty years or more so anything now is useless speculation. It is not too hard to blow up a pipeline and a great many actors possess the ability or can easily hire those who do. Anyway, that ship sailed long ago and is no longer relevant.
Europe found other suppliers of gas and the price is way down compared to before. The price gas for the consumer depends more on the taxes put on energy rather than the price of energy itself; a fact often omitted when handwringing over its effect on consumers and industry. Europe’s gas reserves are a 90% now and is well enough to cover the coming winter and French nuclear reactors are going gangbusters. Energy will not be a problem except for a couple of countries that refused to cut Russian gas even when told that the contract to transport it would not be renewed.
Ukraine’s future is looking more and more secure while Russia’s is, well not looking good. The shoe is on the other foot now.
I truly don’t comprehend the extreme persistence of lying about Ukraine. Deception is a legitimate part of war but this extreme behavior wrecks the nation by continuing its path towards a (now) bankrupt land of orphans, widows, cemeteries and ruined land. Russia has bad demographics, Ukraine may face extinction with the lowest birthrate in 300 years. It has the worst government on earth because not even North Korea seeks extinction as a national policy (“to the last Ukrainian”)
I find it hard to believe that many people refuse to accord Ukraine’s right to resist the invader of their land. I also find it strange that they advertise this resistance as as being wrong because it is bad for the country being invaded even though the invader has expressed at every turn its will to make the Ukrainian people disappear. For me, this is the best example of Crocodile Tears I have ever seen. Furthermore at this point it is Russia who stands to lose the most.
There goes another strawman!
its been said, (not by me) that the plan is to make it the backup Israel, should they need a colony with better living conditions and farther from Iranian missiles.
Take it with a grain of salt, but its not the craziest theory I”ve heard since Covid came to town about 2019.
Love those downvotes!
“Im bored today. Guess I’ll get on the internet and post a dismissive, ageist cliche-laden comment about stuff of which I posses not even a tertiary grasp and then…what…?”
I know full well that most people here do not come to talk about Ukraine but more about how to keep their money and if possible, increase it so I am not upset by the down votes. I find it amusing when I compare what they said two years ago and now how they avoid the subject entirely.
Sounds like you took a few too many souvenirs from the Afghan poppy fields.
Looks like you are a throwback to the Soviet era.
“This reminds me of all the BS about Lee Harvey Oswald could not walk to the location in the allotted time or could not have fired the shots in the allotted time.”
Oswald was seen walking toward the police officer just prior to the encounter meaning he had to walk past the shooting location and turn around to encounter the cop. It is believed Oswald was attempting to catch a bus and use his bus transfer he obtained when he left the Texas School Book Depository. That would mean Oswald would have walked a couple of blocks, waited for a bus that never arrived, turned around and walked back the same distance back in addition to the distance required for the Warren Commission scenario. So at least 5-10 minutes would have to be added to the timeline. It doesn’t necessarily exonerate Oswald or by itself suggest conspiracy as Oswald could have hitchhiked a ride from an unwitting motorist who never came forward for obvious reasons.
Regarding the assassination shooting time, there was enough total time to fire 3 shots. The problem was that the interval between the 2nd and 3rd shots was shorter than the minimum time it takes to cycle the rifle. Another problem is that when the Single Bullet Theory shot was re-created using ballistic mannequins, the exit wound in the neck seen in the autopsy exited the chest. So if the SBT is true, it could bot have been fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD.
People walked the distance in the allotted time.
Mike,
why did LBJ have the Limo, immediately moved to Ford Motors in Michigan for refurbishment before the evidence could be gleaned from the crime scene? This doesn’t seem like the actions of an innocent man, rather more like a pyschopath covering up his crimes..
You are very good with numbers, I think if you look past the cover stories, you’ll find things don’t add up correctly.
That scenario implies that an assassin firing from the front had shot through the windshield and the resulting bullet hole had to be removed as evidence.
1) Shooting through a windshield can deflect bullets enough to jeopardize an accurate shot. There is no way even an expert marksman could compensate.
2) There is a question of whether glare would have allowed a sighting of the target. As well as other occupants of the limo.
3) Shooting a bullet through a windshield ejects a cloud of fine glass particles which is quite visible but was not noted by any of the occupants of the limo or nearby spectators.
4) Taking a shot through the windshield would add enormous complications to a plot to make the assassination as the work of a lone nut firing from behind, such as altering the body, alteration of autopsy evidence, alteration of films, replacing windshield etc. I know these have been alleged but each requires a chain of very improbable (or technically impossible) events any one of which could go wrong. If there were more than one shooter, locating him behind the limo would work just as well without the complications or a cast of thousands.
Yes, directly to the scene of the shooting. But if Oswald tried to use his bus transfer, he would have had to walk several more blocks, wait for the bus and then turn around. That adds at least 5 minutes to the time.There are witnesses who saw Oswald walking west, none who saw him walking east including the cab driver whom he would have had to have walk right in front of his parked taxi.
Oswald was also walking at a rapid rate even by the conventional timeline. Walking at such a pace suggests a destination and a deadline. Instead, Oswald kills the cop and instead of continuing on his original direction, does a complete 180 and heads to the direction of theater. Only makes sense if he already knew the bus was no longer an option. Yes, he could have panicked immediately after shooting the cop but if he had a destination in mind, he could have quickly collected his thoughts and proceeded toward the same objective down a different street.
Note that Oswald deliberately held on to the bus transfer when he changed his clothes. And the bus he was apparently trying to catch would have taken him in the same direction as the bus he briefly boarded immediately after the assassination.
“Shame on the US for causing this entire mess…”
Sorry to inform you, MISH: Sociopaths don’t feel shame. The oligarchs who control the puppet politicians are sociopaths.
So this is Hersh’s counter to the WSJ story written back in March 2023:
The intelligence expert listed all the elements needed before any individual or group could charter an expensive yacht. “You cannot just walk off the street with a fake passport and lease a boat. You either need to accept a captain who was supplied by the leasing agent or owner of the yacht, or have a captain who comes with a certificate of competency as mandated by maritime law. Anyone who’s ever chartered a yacht would know that.”
The expert had more questions about the alleged yacht. “How does a 49-foot sailboat find the pipelines in the Baltic Sea? The pipelines are not that big and they are not on the charts that come with the lease. Maybe the thought was to put the two divers into the water”—not very easy to do so from a small yacht—“and let the divers look for it. How long can a diver stay down in their suits? Maybe fifteen minutes. Which means it would take the diver four years to search one square mile.
The yacht had been rented from Ukrainian owners and manned by a party of six: a captain, two divers, two divers’ assistants, and a doctor. Five were men, and one a woman. False passports were involved.
Similar proof of expertise and competence for deep sea diving involving the use of a specialized mix of gases would be required by the divers and the doctor.
One thing is missing—who is going to crew the yacht? Or cook? What about the logbook that the leasing company must keep for legal reasons?
“None of this happened,” the expert told me. “Stop trying to link this to reality. It’s a parody.”
There really was nothing new to report. The question is why is there so much reporting on all of this now?
I think there is a tendency to believe whatever you read first. If in your case, Mish, you read the WSJ report first, I get why you would hang onto it, but for those of us who read Hersh, this is all old news.
“How does a 49-foot sailboat find the pipelines in the Baltic Sea? The pipelines are not that big and they are not on the charts that come with the lease. “
Try reading the rebuttals.
Instead you repeat debunked nonsense.
Good Lord.
Can anyone read?
C’mon man. Let’s say this; none of us serfs have a clue whodunnit.
Then this; the WSJ story is as preposterous as the Hersh story. Either could be true. Partially true. Or totally false.
But there is one thing of which I am 100% certain. One way or another, the US Govt was involved. And they knew ahead of time.
You got it right! Much disinformation not meant to convince the sheep of a certain storyline; is meant to confuse the heck out of everyone. They’ve introduced lots of conflicting narratives for us to argue about. The truth may be something completely different, like underwater submarine drones. We’ll never know.
Describes 911 to a T
The real shame is Germany’s energy policy, shutting down nuclear too quickly and becoming more and more dependent on Russian oil all the while Russia invades Georgia, Ukraine and Ukraine again.
Cmon Mish. Most “theories” have come true thus far. The WSJ is ridiculous I’m sorry. Journalist to Biden – “but, but, how will you do that?”, Biden “don’t worry, we can do it”.
Interesting how they had to come up with this BS story the moment the investigation “failed to find anything”
Who the hell knows? One fact stands out. No party, from the US to Russia, can be trusted. No reporting, including the WSJ, can be viewed as trustworthy.
The US Neocons have been salivating for decades to destroy Russia and take their vast assets. And neocons can’t even win a war. They can’t keep a military base’s billions of equipment safe. Or maybe that’s how they spread weapons worldwide for secret operations. Who knows anything in this smoke-and-mirror world? All I know is that I am disgusted with American so-called exceptionalism and want far more say in government other than the useless process of voting for another corrupt representative so an amoral big industry can bribe them.
They weren’t happy with just enriching the Oligarchs?
They’re NEVER happy Have you seen a picture of Victoria Nudelmann lately Post menopausal monstrosity Hope her husband does business trips to Thailand
This is well said.
Gas pipelines don’t just lie on the seabed. A trench is dug, pipe laid, then covered.
To locate them, you probably need sophisticated equipment that can detect Earth magnetic field variations.
Think about it.
its very handy if you have a few nuclear submarines that can stay under water for very long periods, for doing surveys and recon of areas of interest, like piplines and comms cables. I’m pretty sure Uncle Sugar has a whole classified map with all these “things” of interest and they update it on a regular basis.
Gives the submariners something to do in those expensive tin cans..
And to follow up, we now hear that Ukraine invaded Russia proper, using high tech offensive American weapons, secretly and without the knowledge or approval of the US. How many nukes does Russia have? 5,000? And how many times over the past year has Medvedev or other high placed Russians threatened to use them- directly or impliedly? Do you really believe this horsesh*t that the pervert Zelensky did this on his own? Again, if true, or untrue, we really need to get out of the Empire business.
So I guess by your theory, it’s just a coincidence that Nuland and Biden told us all they would destroy the pipelines. And drunken amateurs pulled this off? The Ukes actually blew up the pipeline on their own, destroying billions of investment from German Investors, and many billions more in increased energy costs to Ukraine’s second highest military supporter (maybe third highest), all without the approval or foreknowledge of the US? I guess now I can see just how nuclear wars can be so easily started. If we are so incompetent, and so lacking of control over a third rate pervert, corrupt, cocaine addict, actor president, or a totally corrupt country that we have been funding and arming to the hilt for over 10 years, we really need to get out of the Empire business. It seems Germany is wisely seeking to get out of this disastrous conflict. May take another election to get their psycho globalist leaders out of office, but I think the Germans are wising up. They better, if they want to remain as an industrial power.
Whether Germany believes the WSJ tale or not, the fact that they’re using Ukraine’s purported culpability as a reason to stop funding / arming Ukraine is delicious. Those of us who consider the WSJ tale just more Biden buffoons’ narrative engineering chuckle at another unintended consequence – like how their whole war against Russia has created a new Russia-China alliance. That Jake Sullivan – he sure is clever.
Idiotic,
Show me where Biden said he would “blow up the pipelines”
And since when do you believe Biden’s ramblings?
When they prove prophetic. A well known symptom of early dementia is loss of one’s ‘filter’.
Well he has form, when it comes to Ukraine. Do you not believe he boasted about getting rid of a public prosecutor in the Ukraine by witholding a billion usd? Are you saying that also didn’t happen?
There may be some flaws in Hersh’s article as in any reporting but it is still generally more probable and plausible than the alternative WSJ operation. The alternative proposal would have had a very low probability of success without detection, which would have been an unacceptable risk, in view of the geopolitical consequences.
Hersh posted a nonsensical rant that has now clearly been debunked by many sources.
Heck, Zelensky does not even deny the WSJ article.
Case closed.
somehow, the FBI will soon tell us it was all Donald Trump’s fault. Think I saw this movie before…
It would behoove you to think. I am not defending conspiracy theories, I am debunking preposterous bullshit.
One man’s fish is another man’s poisson.
in a world of illusion the truth becomes lost rather quickly, it is the 3 letter agencies who constantly poison the water with disinformation to increase the noise to signal ratio.
Project Mockingbird was a CIA project to gain control of the USA media. It was very successful.
There’s one thing for sure … The public will never know the truth … there’s too much BS from all sides …
We have a 95%+ answer as to what happened.
Everything fits – easily.
The navy should employ small sailing ships instead of torpedoes. They are unstoppable once launched, even for days and over thousands of sea miles.
Like almost all the theories floating around it only fits easily if one ignores some basic truths that cause it to be dubious. One of the biggest problems is the choice of the location of the attack. One attack was in the exclusive economic zone of Denmark. The other was in Sweden’s e.e.z. Both of these areas are heavily surveilled. Not because they are worried about Ukrainians coming in and blowing up Russian assets but rather they (and others) are worried about Russians coming in and blowing up some of their sh*t.
The only, only, only reason that anyone would choose to blow something up in someone’s jurisdiction rather than in the equally attractive hundreds of miles of neutral, relatively unguarded pipeline is that the attackers were counting on the authorities to look the other way.
Diving with mixed gases is a complicated business. Doing physical work at depth is a complicated business. Blowing up a pipeline made of reinforced steel covered by a protective layer of reinforced cement is a complicated business. Assembling the necessary pumps, hundreds of pounds of explosives etc without being detected is a complicated business. Loading the gear onto a small boat without being noticed is a complicated business. Using a sailboat of all things which by definition will be slow and difficult to maneuver makes it a complicated business. Carrying out the operation unobserved while in sight of land is a complicated business. Knowing that if you get caught in the act it’s life in prison in Guantanamo East makes it a complicated business for the perps and absolutely anybody who had anything to do with the operation. If doesn’t fit for me.
Everyone is guilty of confirmation bias……EVERYONE!!!! That’s why I don’t even think about things like the pipeline explosion, who did it, or how they did it. I wasn’t there and I don’t know, and to be quite frank I don’t care either. It’s done and over with, and the truth will probably never be revealed.
It’s a complicated business but look at the complicated bullshit required to believe the alternative.
Ron you are another person who cannot seem to read.
Those locations were are the very fringe of patrolled space chosen for that reason and because all 4 pipelines were in a close space.
Can anyone here read?
The problem isn’t whether one can read or not, the problem is what their brain biases towards. Most already have thier minds made up, so they wander the internet looking for whatever “evidence” that supports thier bias. That’s why I don’t argue with people unless I have first hand knowledge of an event. Even then I generally don’t bother arguing. When I do argue I present what I know and let the other person do with it as they will. Arguing gains me nothing other than a boat load of wasted time. Even if I win the person over what did I gain? Again not much other than a bunch of wasted time.
Ego drives these arguments.
It’s not a comprehension issue. It’s trust. I can read that the CDC recommends that everyone get another Covid booster.
When and for what topics can you trust proven liars?