Epic Games vs Apple, Did We Learn Anything From the Judge’s Questions?

After three weeks of testimony, the Bench Trial Between Apple and Epic Games is over but a decision may be months away.

What’s It All About?

Epic Games accuses Apple of monopolistic practices. 

Epic Games, the maker of the popular video game Fortnite, purposely violated an Apple rule by using its own app payment system.

Apple booted Fortnite and that kicked off a lawsuit by Epic.

Epic Games Takes Apple On In Court: Who Will Win and Who Should Win?

I commented on the case on May 3, in Epic Games Takes Apple On In Court: Who Will Win and Who Should Win?

Neither side wanted a jury. So a judge gets to decide. 

What Did We Learn From the Judge’s Questions?

Today was the Final Day of Courtroom Battle Over Monopoly Claims. What did we learn?

Apple spent the final moments of its high-profile courtroom fight against Epic Games Inc. arguing the videogame maker’s antitrust lawsuit was simply a way for it to get out of paying for access to iPhone users.

Instead of traditional closing arguments held before a jury, the judge had asked the two sides to prepare for a debate-style end to the trial that has lasted more than three weeks in Oakland, Calif.

Toward the end of the almost four-hour hearing, Judge Gonzalez Rogers, too, questioned how Epic’s proposed solutions would compensate Apple.

“One of the issues that has concerned me throughout the course of this trial is that your client doesn’t seem to be interested in paying for the access to customers who use iOS,” she told Epic’s lawyer, saying that Epic is “attacking the fundamental way in which Apple is generating revenue.”

“Apple can still have an app store on your phone and encourage people to use it,” Mr. Bornstein said. “If people value what Apple is providing, and I’m sure there are some who do on the developer side and the consumer side, those people can continue to shop at the App Store.”

Rogers began immediately probing their arguments, suggesting that Epic’s view of the market and its substitutes could hurt consumers because they pick a particular digital ecosystem, such as Apple’s iOS operating system, knowing they are walled gardens. “Your economic substitutes destroy that consumer choice,” she said. Furthermore, she questioned why the market shouldn’t be defined as mobile games.

Strong Question, Weak Reply

That was an interesting tactic by Judge Rogers to conclude with a debate.

Rogers asked a very pointed question Epic lawyer Gary Bornstein did not have a good answer. 

On Monday, Nick Rodelli, head of CFRA’s legal edge research, said in a note to investors that Epic now holds “a slight edge in winning.”

I suspect that was based on prior questions from Judge Rogers to which Apple had weak replies.

Apple’s Tim Cook Faces Pointed Questions From Judge 

On May 21, the WSJ reported Apple’s Tim Cook Faces Pointed Questions From Judge on App Store Competition

Mr. Cook spent about four hours Friday on the witness stand in an Oakland, Calif., court trying to rebut claims by “Fortnite” videogame creator Epic Games Inc. that Apple unfairly prohibits competing app stores on the iPhone and forces in-app purchases for digital payments through its own system that takes as much as a 30% cut.

As Mr. Cook’s time on the public witness stand neared an end, U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers interjected, noting that game developers seemed to be generating a disproportionate amount of money for Apple compared with the technology the iPhone maker was providing in turn.

Mr. Cook said that Apple faced “fierce” competition from Alphabet Inc.’s Google, Samsung Electronics Co. and others and emphasized how much value his company’s investment in the app economy has created for developers—an assertion fitting claims from Apple’s lawyers that the company’s fees are fair.

Powerful Lines 

  • “Your economic substitutes destroy that consumer choice.”
  •  Epic is “attacking the fundamental way in which Apple is generating revenue.”

Apple also defends its app restrictions on grounds of security.

“Mr. Cook, what do you think the third-party data shows? You personally, the difference,” asked Rogers.

Cook replied that the data shows 1% to 2% of malware is on iPhones. “It’s quite a difference,” he said.

Who’s Ahead Now?

Those reading anything into Rogers’ questions on May 21 need to reconsider today.

Judicial questions aside, it is very difficult to win antitrust cases in the US. 

Who Should Win?

Consumers buy Apple products because they like them. People use Gmail and Google search because they like the apps.

My position is that if it’s good for the consumer it’s good enough. 

Question of the Day Flashback

Question of the Day Today

Mish

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michellemwalls
michellemwalls
2 years ago
It’s kind of new news, but I think whatever happens shouldn’t be reflected in these players, I think that’s the way it is.  link to basketballlegends.fun
Webej
Webej
2 years ago

your client doesn’t seem to be interested in paying for the access to customers 

Is Apple actually stating they own the clients, like the Master of the plantation?

hurt consumers because they pick a particular digital ecosystem … knowing they are walled gardens.

O no. A plantation with walls marking the border.
Do the plantation inhabitants actually apply for citizenship and long-term fealty?

This is the very picture of monopolization, no matter how often you say the slaves can transfer to another plantation.

Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
OT..the dollar has dropped within range of taking out the January low, which means we’re at an important cusp for a lot of markets.
Moreover, I would posit that a drop down from these levels will be accepted in a lot of quarters as proof that the Fed is being more successful in making the dollar weaker, which I think has been an unstated goal for some time. Fwiw, I expect a bounce in the dollar…but maybe not much of one.
I am waiting for the dollar to bounce and then turn back down before buying one or more of my gold proxies.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Gold bulls are rushing in, thinking the dollar is toast. I think they’re going to get creamed, but I could be wrong.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Lunch time in Texas and it looks like gold is going to hold its gains for today….but the dollar is still trying to rally. Fun day to watch the action but I’m happy to sit this one out.  It looks to me like the DXY needs to get back above 90.25 or so to reverse the downtrend it’s been in since April 1st. I’m not at all sure it will do that.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
I suppose it is possible but generally speaking having a market with only two suppliers usually isn’t good for customers. I would love to be in the position of Apple who has to only worry about competition from only one other company. Frankly ever since the duopoly formed about eight years ago I fail to see any real innovations in their products. We just get incremental improvements in hardware and services they provide. 
Chip Talk
Chip Talk
2 years ago
as a consumer i would like to see apple to be greater to turn this year’s success into another year with even greater success by building wonderful products/services. I love their product and bought for my families. Simple as that. I can switch to other brands , plenty of choices when i wanted and vice versa and move on.
Every business tries to turn their business successfully (ofcourse, i mean great business with integrity). I think Epic Games CEO had some sort of malicious thinking/plan/self interest (dont forget that Epic Games CEO , whom breach the contract). People often forget someone’s salary is getting paid by these great business, they create jobs. When does great business that’s good for the economics and to the consumer likes become a sin?
If Epic Games win this in the court, then i would think the legal systems is really crazy & discourages the best companies from doing business , not only for apple but for others as well Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Walmart…etc. No great business should be in the hot seat and being grilled by hypocrite.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
2 years ago
I haven’t read the transcripts of the case but I still think Epic’s lawyers went the wrong way.
They should have make the comparison to the car market. There a consumer buys a car (phone) from GM/Ford/Toyota (Apple/Google) and the consumer owns the car (phone). At that point they are free to obtain service or parts (apps) from either GM/Ford/Toyota OR they can go to 3rd party places like AutoZone/Pep Boy and purchase either GM/Ford/Toyota parts (apps) or 3rd party parts (Epic). This model has benefited consumers immensely to obtain the best prices for parts / service rather than being forced to go to the ‘stealership’ and pay inflated prices for parts/service (30% gouging by Apple/Google).
I find it insane that Apple can prevent Epic from using their website (which runs anywhere and is not part of their app or Apples walled garden) where customers can directly pay Epic for ‘credits’ that can be used in their games. My company has an app in the app stores customers can use if they are paying for tech support. Does that mean we should be giving Apple/Google 30% of our revenue for tech support because they are using the app in a paid model???
FloydVanPeter
FloydVanPeter
2 years ago
The ultimate question is whether Apple is in its rights to block competing AppStores.  In effect, Apple closed the iPhone for competition they don’t want.  One would have thought that consumers should have the right to use any AppStore they fancy.
There are competing app-stores on my android. Apple phones seem sufficiently pricey to have a profit (w/o an app store).
However, Apple would still be correct to demand stringent standards and auditability of apps provided via competing AppStore-s.
Mike 2112
Mike 2112
2 years ago
If Apple wins then I guess Microsoft should get a cut of any software I buy and download using Windows?
I had no idea Apple owned its customers.

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