Say goodbye to a vehicle that never should have been conceived in the first place. Customers don’t want it. 
Bye Bye Electric SUV
The Wall Street Journal reports Ford Cancels Plans for Electric SUV
Ford is canceling plans for a large electric sport-utility vehicle and expects to take $1.9 billion in related special charges and write-downs, as automakers continue adjusting their EV plans because of softer-than-expected demand.
The Dearborn, Mich., automaker this spring said it would delay plans for an electric three-row SUV by two years to a 2027 release date. On Wednesday, the company said it is scrapping the model altogether, citing tough pricing pressure as automakers resort to aggressive discounts to move their EVs.
Ford instead will offer a hybrid gas-electric version of a future large, three-row SUV, a popular vehicle category that includes the brand’s Explorer and Expedition nameplates.
The company also pushed back the launch of a new electric pickup truck by one year, until 2027. In addition, Ford said it would trim its capital spending on fully electric vehicles to about 30% of its budget, from 40%.
Ford has said its EV business is on pace to lose about $5 billion this year. Executives have said the company is trying to reduce those losses on its current EV lineup while making sure future offerings turn a profit.
While Ford is recalibrating its plans to include more hybrids, it also is moving ahead with the rollout of several full EVs. It will start making an electric commercial van in 2026 and two new pickup trucks a year later.
Ford Chief Executive Jim Farley has said that China’s EV companies have the advantage of a lower-cost supply chain and that Ford needs to find ways to lower its own costs to compete.
“We believe that the fitness of the Chinese in EVs will eventually wash over our entire industry in all regions,” Farley told analysts last month.
Ford Loses $132,000 on Each EV Produced
On April 26, I reported Ford Loses $132,000 on Each EV Produced, Good News, EV Sales Down 20 Percent
Ford (F) reports a huge loss on every EV. Sales are down 20 percent holding the losses to $1.3 billion.
Losses have been revised up twice and now tack on another $1.9 billion today.
Congrats!
Another Green Energy Company Declares Bankruptcy, Thank Biden’s Tariffs
On August 10, I commented Another Green Energy Company Declares Bankruptcy, Thank Biden’s Tariffs
Conflicting goals often leads to the worst of both outcomes. That’s what’s happening with solar panels and EVs.
Conflicting goals are in play again today.
Not only did Biden demand more EV to help the environment (but it will do no such thing),the administration also put restrictions on the use of foreign parts to drive up the costs.
Lesson of the Day
Huge losses are exactly what one should expect when government rather than customers drive business decisions.
Despite huge subsidies, Ford still cannot make ends meet on EVs.
Yet, due to government coercion, Ford is forced to try, try, and try again. If and when Ford succeeds, it will have more production capacity than it needs because EVs have less parts and are easier to build.
Job losses are coming.
A push towards EV will still happen, but at a much slower pace, more cheaply, and without so many losses.
But at least $5 billion, and just for Ford alone, is now a sunken cost for an EV schedule that never should have been attempted.
Thank you President Biden, AOC, Elizabeth Warren, and everyone else who created this mess.
About 27 percent of people live in condos
About 35 percent rent
Based on the above, 50 percent or more do not have immediate access to a charger.
Another 20% or so (guessing at this number more than above) at least occasionally drive beyond the range of a charge.
And those in cold area have even more concern.
So stop the bullshit about no problem for 90% of the population.
For everyone in those categories a hybrid could make sense.
My driving is such that a hybrid makes little sense. I frequently travel off road and love my 4-runner.
I am in the minority, but a clear majority have major concerns for good reason.
35% rent apt, townhouses, condos and houses.
We rent a townhouse. We have one gas car and one EV, a Nissan Leaf. The leaf is a fantastic commuter car. We use a dryer buddy automatic switch, an extension cord, and a cable bridge to get the charger across the sidewalk to the car. It works great! Aside from the affordability of charging at home there’s a great deal of convenience not having to stop at gas stations ever during the work week.
https://www.bsaelectronics.com/collections/dryer-buddy-plus-auto
https://m.vevor.com/cable-ramp-c_10747/vevor-cable-protector-ramp-wire-cable-cover-guard-2channel-2pack-rubber-11000lbs-p_010926220993
You’d think Detroit would have pointed out to D.C. how well government mandates in the auto industry worked for the Soviets and Eastern Europe. Different markets and different times to be sure but the eventual outcomes (financial losses) were the same (cars nobody wanted).
If your corporation takes orders from someone senile and drooling about what products you should manufacture , then then blame is on you. Duh.
Legacy Auto is setting itself up for disaster.
Our government-directed industrial-policy economy is being set up for disaster.
As Mises might say, what can each of us do to make the best of what our government does not wreck?
11 days without power for my entire town during the last hurricane. Even getting gasoline was difficult for 4 days. I also learned from a neighbor his solar panels didn’t work without electricity. He didn’t buy the full system with a battery and upgrading it now is a substantial cost.
I’m not bashing EVs but the above situation is rarely discussed when hurricanes along the gulf knock out large chunks of electricity. I’m glad the market is correcting despite the government trying to force feed this thing. Slow it down and also start being honest of who is the ideal user for EVs. It’s not people who live in hurricane prone areas that’s for damn sure.
In case it is NOT clear, what follows is not about ICE vs EV vs PEM/fuel cell. It is about allowing the free market to operate, and for people to buy what they want to buy. Not what the government thinks is best for you.
About 20 years ago, GM was investing major $$$ in fuel cells/proton exchange research, believing hydrogen was the clean fuel of the future, if they could solve the obvious problems: e.g. high risk of explosions, and transporting and storing hydrogen at ‘gas’ stations. All I can say is there were some interesting possibilities.
Keep in mind, GM had already been down the battery-powered road with the EV1–see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
The project started in 1990, with production from 1996 to 1999. The cars were loaned/leased, not sold, for reasons that should be obvious. All but a few EV1s were destroyed at the end of the project, despite being well received by users. At the time, the technology and production cost were limiting factors.
Not much has changed–including the reality of how people want to live their lives.
“Say goodbye to a vehicle that never should have been conceived in the first place. Customers don’t want it.”
But the Democrat Party does. Speaking of electricity, ZH headline: “25% Of Brits Consider Turning Off The Heat In Winter As Power-Bills Soar”
Parking lots are Brimming with inventory all over the USA. They will have to be deeply discounted to dump them (2024’s) to make way for the ’25’s.
Fugetabouthat. They will take the year-plates off and leave them there until they sell.
…..and, people will vote Democratic, but they are dumbed down, watching CNN tout those great accomplishments. They will tax your gains before you sell…oh, the list goes on and on.
Arch coal and Consol merged. The sun is shining, the wind is blowing, but old coal and nuke plants are dying ==> high utility cost squeeze consumers.
I have solar and wind, lots of batteries, and a generator for when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing.
On a practical note … Take the current AI mania, how much electricity is required to run the data centers etc.? Project it forward. Next, if the entire fleet is electrified, how much electricity required, project it forward. Then go to battery materials, solar materials, recycling, copper etc. If this were a religion, no one would believe it. “The Science” is a mantra of so called technological progress, ruled by social engineering, which is then divorced from empiricism and governed by ideology. In short, a religion.
When ICE cars first started out the wagon and horse-raising industries used the same logic. You would have to build an incredible number of roads with places to buy gas every ten miles. Who is going to pay for it?
Answer the questions, don’t deflect.
You want a spreadsheet with all answers? You won’t get one from anybody but that has been true with every new industry. Back in the 1980’s many insiders thought that the internet was a great idea but impactable because they couldn’t see where the money would come from to build the infrastructure, yet the money came and here we are.
Big projects are always dismissed by bean-counters who always want a detailed plan and guaranteed profits. You would have loved Ming-era China.
Ford trucks carried farm products to R/R hubs. Ford sold 1.5 million cars/y
during the dept of the 1920/21 recession, killing the R/R (and the Dow theory). Roads replaced horses, electric trams and R/R lines. People start travelling to national parks in the south and the west, starting a new industry along with the airline industry.
Ford innovation co found new customers, selling at lower prices cannibalizing the competition. Highly skilled workers in Ford got $5/day, doubling their salaries.
…and, you are now implying that the AUTOMOBILE is a good thing? My perspective is that it is a travesty and public transport would be far better, if done efficiently. The 100’s of thousands that an average consumer dumps on HAVING AUTO’s, insuring them, sitting in traffic, sitting in auto repair facilities and paying exorbitant prices for fuel makes for a very poor outcome on the whole. The automobile is a NIGHTMARE financially and yet here we ALL are!
The next time you go to the mall, WALK!
How much was paid in subsidies in the early years of ICE?
Free market/capitalism largely replaced horses, trams, and trains. Cars/trucks were in heavy use long before govt. highway programs.
Difference being: ICE cars offered massive and obvious advantages over horse drawn carriages.
While BEVs offer a few convenience advantages for some, and serious disadvantages for others. Hence why it has nowhere and never; at least in America; been a naturally growing “industry”, unlike cars. Instead being simply another transfer payment sink for vanity seeking dilettante class wreckage.
“ideology” more like “idiotology”🥱
They jumped the shark on this idea right out of the gate. Biden Inc. saw a big shiny object (look a squirrel!), that had an idea they could capitalize on for votes, and to appear that He knew what he spoke about. An ill conceived plan to begin with, and for all the wrong reasons.
My guess would be that there preliminary reports told them that people loved the idea (only in theory unfortunately for Biden Inc.), and wanted it stat, and they would rush to buy Pronto!
Unfortunately again for them, the Manufacturers (Unions Mostly, now there’s a surprise…) were not ready, trained, skilled or capable of pouring them off of the conveyor belts. They sold the BS to anyone that would listen. Gotta be the first you know! What started as an idea, quickly turned out to be a “gotta have it now to those interested”. As usual, with eyes as big as plates, as they say $$$ just gushing (in there little heads that hold little brains) through the doors for this shit! So they started the scam…
So with No Infrastructure in place, or the ability to do do, and No Material available, or the ability to get it by themselves, and no idea or care really at this point, for the Environmental Impact that this would all cause (ALL should have been first on the list of things to look at, but nope, apparently not necessary).
So now we sit, with an idea that was far too early to mention, and never mind Roll Out! We have practically Zero infrastructure in place to utilize EV’s even if we could make and sell them hand over fist, as it would just make the problem that much worse!! We have practically Zero Material available, so we would have to be reliant on China or elsewhere for Materials (See Germany for why we don’t want to be that Country), at a massive cost of course.
We are in the middle of, possibly the largest ever recession for our Country, and certainly recent memory! Where is all this money coming from to purchase all these new and very costly vehicles to own, operate, service, and dispose of parts when needed? What a colossal failure of an idea, at the worst time, and totally dependent on our largest adversaries to be able to build them if we wanted too.
Spot On: “Say goodbye to a vehicle that never should have been conceived in the first place. Customers don’t want it.”
Bye Bye Electric SUV ( I would add nearly all EV’s at this point, and we may see this idea again, in 10 years maybe?).
Lesson
Wut? The future does not align with their Diktat? Amazing.
Hybrids, interesting tech. Regenerative braking, nice transfer of energy. Better gas mileage. No plugs.
Personally, I’m waiting for the hydrogen powered SUV. The one that flies. In the meantime …
I ask of you all what would it take for you to swap your ICE car for an EV? What criteria and characteristics would you need to change?
“I ask of you all what would it take for you to swap your ICE car for an EV? What criteria and characteristics would you need to change?”
1. Environmental Issues cleaned up, if even possible right now, and a clear laid out plan for ALL of it! Every issue cleaned up in its entirety before we go even an inch forward. Halt all production immediately! It will be a cold day in hell, before I buy a vehicle that is destroying our Planet for Profit, Convenience, or for ANY Reason!
2. Cost must be cut in half or so, to make this a viable option for all but those with money. We don’t need a vehicle for the elite, that is unaffordable for the masses. That will cause way more problems than it would ever be worth, from a societal point of view!
3. EV Charging Stations as common as GV Gas stations are!
4. A very specific “Disposal Plan” with everything needed clearly laid out, cost of such as close to Zero as possible (Subsidized by the Vehicle Manufacturers of the products that are issues), and a very bold Plan for a power that is Not Environmentally Damaging! All of this with Monthly Reports showing the status of every issue, so we can Halt Production when/if needed immediately!
For starters, so when they get close to these in maybe 10 years or Never, I will have a new list more than likely, as they will certainly cause more issues trying to fix the existing ones as usual
1) With ICE you are destroying the planet as well.
2) The average car in the US costs $48,000. You can get a new Tesla for that price so the luxury argument is no longer valid.
3) EV charging station are getting more common and if you have a house you will never have to go to a service station again except for long trips.
4) This point is true for every industrial product and one could give that reason for every one of them.
The only real objections are points two and three and neither one is not much a barrier.
What’s wrong with the following GV’s?:
1. Honda Accord (Hybrid)?
2. Honda Civic (Hybrid)?
3. Honda Civic?
4. Toyota Prius?
5. Mazda 3?
P.S. All GV, and All Under $40,000.00, I know not of what you speak?
If you have a house? Not counting Homes (condo, condex etc.).
Most don’t.
Most do
Look at the first post on THIS thread. I had verified it before I posted:
About 27 percent of people live in condos
About 35 percent rent
Based on the above, 50 percent or more do not have immediate access to a charger.
Another 20% or so (guessing at this number more than above) at least occasionally drive beyond the range of a charge.
And those in cold area have even more concern.
EV’s are far more damaging than GV’s, and much of it can be permanent, and very prone to,leakage.
Changing ONE OF my ICEs: More garage space in the urban areas where BEVs make sense.
Changing MY LAST ICE: Battery density allowing for convenient home storage of 18 months worth of driving, even if the Junta should decide Al Gore “needed” the energy for his jet more than I needed it for more useful things.
By the time the US military and the Mujaheddin has fully transitioned to BEVs, it may at least be something to consider. Until then? Why?
EVs are the black swan for Ford and GM. They can’t make a profit from making them and to do so they would have to invest massively in a technology they do not know. It is a dilemma for them. To make EVs they would have to disinvest in the ICE part but if they do that they lose the part that makes for them money……for now.
The only real advantages ICE has over EV are range and speed of recharging but how long do you think those two advantages will last before they are overwhelmed by technical progress? For apartment-dwellers ICE’s only advantage is recharging speed and if that goes away, as it will, there will be no reason to keep ICE.
There will always be a need for ICE but I remember what happened in the aviation industry when jet engines took over. Jet engines because technically they were simpler and cheaper to make and took over the high and medium end of aircraft motors leaving ICE the low end to smaller aircraft and special purpose planes. The same thing is happening now.
The big problem is not if EVs will come to dominate. It is which companies will prosper and which ones will disappear in the automotive sector and invest accordingly.
– EV’s are the black swan for Ford and GM. They can’t make a profit from making them.
> Correct, and not one single Automobile Manufacturer with a Union in this Country, will ever be able to make a profit, as it stands today. EV’s are WAY CHEAPER to make than GV’s. In most cases a H.S. Drop out can do the job, with about 1 month or less of training (depends on how quickly they pick it up, as some in a matter of days). Once we go 100% to EV’s, say goodbye to them all, or a very much paired down version, with health benefits free, to make up for some of it, and bonuses, when possible, so that might be awhile…
– To do so they would have to invest massively in a technology they do not know.
> No, just drop the Labor Cost by 50% and your much closer.
– they would have to disinvest in the ICE part.
> GV’s will still be manufactured by somebody, long after you and I are gone. There are thousands upon thousands around the World, still running. GV’s are so much cleaner, cheaper, easier to maintain, easier to fix yourself, MPG is over 50+ now for many makes and models. EV’s May never even get off of the ground, in mass production efforts and support.
– I remember what happened in the aviation industry when jet engines took over. The same thing is happening now.
> We don’t drive planes to work, and last I checked, planes were not being used in 160+ countries in the World. Totally different industry, and not comparable in any way. Not cost, maintenance, mpg, ownership, storage, etc.
– The big problem is not if EVs will come to dominate.
> Oh, I think THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!
Trump or Harris LOL
As I have written In November we will don our ushanka and choose ones poison
“A push towards EV will still happen, but at a much slower pace, more cheaply, and without so many losses.”
How will they compete with Chinese automakers? The big 3 are going to be out of business if the shift to EV happens.
“How will they compete with Chinese automakers? The big 3 are going to be out of business if the shift to EV happens.”
Which has little; aside from some inertia; to do with EVs…..
Ford is committed to EVs. Stumbles are to be expected when changing energy source for vehicles.
electrek.
/2024/08/21/fords-first-affordable-ev-new-electric-pickup-but-theres-more/
Ford’s first affordable EV will be a new electric pickup, but there’s more
I used to provide rides for the Amish folks. Now, they will be giving me rides.
Fast Eddy wrote “And they want people to drive EVs…”
I recall reading back in 2009 the ironic hypocrisy: Barack Obama’s administration wanted the public to buy cars, in order to save the jobs and pensions of GM autoworkers, but his EPA and a major Democratic constituency = the Environmentalists wanted the public to park those cars and not drive them; saving the planet is just as important as make-work payments to automakers.
No problem. I didn’t want one anyway.
H2 fuel cells will be the ultimate solution and rid us of EV’s, Hybrids and ICE cars. As with regular gas stations, you will be able to stop in a local H2 station anywhere and fill the tank in a few minutes.
There is nothing inherently wrong with EV’s except for the major problem of energy storage and refill.
People who don’t have home chargers are constrained to having to go to a commercial refill site, hope the chargers are working (often they aren’t), hope the working ones aren’t all in use, pay whatever the asking price is without being able to go around the corner and perhaps pay less and worse of all, having to sit and wait, wait, wait doom scrolling or reading junk news of their cellphones while the juice is pumped into the battery.
THIS is the problem with EV’s!
EV’s – a solution in search of a problem.
ty AGREE
Where could the economy be headed now?
Today, there is great wage and wealth disparity, just as there was in the late 1920s. Recent energy consumption growth has been low, just as it was in the 1920s. A significant difference today is that the debt level of the US government is already at an extraordinarily high level. Adding more debt now is fraught with peril.
https://ourfiniteworld.com/2024/08/21/todays-economy-is-like-that-of-the-late-1920s/
the debt level after WWI was high.
Because of a WW… this is completely different… the debt levels have been run up to absurd levels now because of the head winds caused by the depletion of cheap resources – including oil.
We burn up and use the easiest stuff first… then what remains is low grade ores and expensive to produce energy (e.g. shale, deep sea, tar sands)…
That creates a massive drag on the economy … the central banks responded to this with cheap easy money … and that kept the train on the tracks for two decades….
But now what cannot continue… is stopping. And we are f789ed.
THE PERFECTSTORM (see page 59) : The economy is a surplus energy equation, not a monetary one, and growth in output (and in the global population) since the Industrial Revolution has resulted from the harnessing of ever-greater quantities of energy. But the critical relationship between energy production and the energy cost of extraction is now deteriorating so rapidly that the economy as we have known it for more than two centuries is beginning to unravel https://ftalphaville-cdn.ft.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Perfect-Storm-LR.pdf
The war against the virus lifted debt.
No – it started many years before that … Covid was another excuse to bail things out without alerting folks to the real causes of economic strife….
https://i0.wp.com/bmg-group.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/us-federal-debt-divided-by-us-gdp-2018.05.30.jpg
Using SEEDS, this report assesses the trend of material and financial economic progression between 1980 and today, and reaches the following conclusions, at least some of which are likely to come as a bit of a surprise to many:
1. Energy consumption has expanded by 124% since 1980, but the efficiency with which each unit of energy is converted into economic value has deteriorated gradually, in line with depletion of non-energy natural resources.
2. ECoE – the Energy Cost of Energy – increased five-fold between 1980 (2.0%) and 2023 (10.2%).
3. Together, these factors indicate that growth in the “real” economy of material products and services since 1980 was only +89% – just fractionally ahead of growth in population numbers (+81%).
4. The World’s average person is now barely 4% more prosperous – and drastically more indebted – than he or she was back in 1980.
The mythology of growth
EVEN IN THE GOOD TIMES, THE ECONOMY BARELY OUT-GREW POPULATION
https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2024/08/20/287-the-mythology-of-growth/
This is what happens when we deplete the high concentration resources… destroying growth
The Fed raided banks account since Oct 2008. In 2020 when the virus shut down our economy the Fed raided in repetition, transferring money to shingle mums, the poor and the middle class, before the Nov 2020 election. The D fought back and grabbed victory to save our democracy.
And they want people to drive EVs…
The announcement that Winstone Pulp International was shutting was “hideous news” that came in the same week as the “stupendously high energy dividends” were being announced by the power generating companies, he said.
The forest products company is planning to shut down its Tangiwai sawmill and Karioi pulp mill and cut more than 200 jobs due to power prices.
It says energy prices have skyrocketed, and now account for over 40 percent of the costs.
Jones told Morning Report: “The energy prices most certainly are making manufacturing and industrial firms in a perilous situation. … The energy costs in New Zealand for manufacturing and industry are ridiculously high and it is imperilling the viability of industry and manufacturing in regional New Zealand.”
https://www.odt.co.nz/business/jones-slams-ridiculously-high-power-prices
This idea of losses per car is just wrong.
They invested in a new platform. The cost of this platform per vehicle is quoted as a loss.
In real life, this investment is necessary to compete. It will be recovered over decades not years.
All of the automakers understand this.
EVs will soon be limited to golf course duty
120 years ago the horse gave away to the ICE vehicles. This was a commercially driven innovation not the result of some government mandate.
There was no Fed and the $ was tied to gold – so no ridiculous subsidies could be handed out to carpet baggers.
I see as its all about the accounting as far as allocating costs per unit as in all the overhead distributed versus number of units produced.
With more units (or cars) produced over time, the overhead cost per car will decrease (as far as “economy of scale”).
They need to make a $25,000 electric 4 door pickup truck with a range of at least 400 miles. That would sell a lot.
The problem is charging rate and being able to easily charge it if you own a townhome or detached single family home with an ordinary 110 Volt cable from the garage electric outlet.
Tariffs block import that destroyed our steel industries and industries that are important to our national interest. Tariffs protect highly skilled workers jobs. Not all workers benefit from tariffs. Many low end workers suffer from tariffs that lift inflation, but the country as a whole benefit.
The management at Ford and GM have run those companies into the ground. Spending $$ BILLIONS on Stock Buybacks to pump up quarterly earnings results so that the CEOs get outsized Bonuses. They have been screwing this up for a decade.
It is in no way at all in my; nor in anyone else sentient’s; “national interest” to grossly overpay for steel. Just to ensure that some third rate, imbecile PE fund Fed welfare recipient with zero competence at anything aside from junta assisted leeching off of productive people and industry; is able to “earn a return” on wealth none of them ever earned, and which all of them lack any ability to do anything with, other than grossly mismanage and malinvest and waste.
What IS the “the national interest”, is that competent people and organizations get to procure inputs at the lowest possible price, and the highest possible quality. Keeping worthless retards in unearned splendor, just because the lobby trashy politicians, is exactly 100% anathema to that.
I can mot think of a better example of government screwing things up than EVs
Plenty worse things. Your Healthcare and Education have skyrocketed in price over the previous two decades and results are worse.
Yes I agree — there should never have been subsidies… and EVs would not exist
There’s no greater recipient of U.S. Government subsidies than oil & natural gas companies.
What about education, affordable housing, or medical care?
Jimmy Carter, the Dept. of Education.
The Fed is infinitely more fundamentally destructive.
Ditto “civil courts” getting into the pure, crass shakedown business of decreeing arbitrary “wrongdoing” which was always supposed to be the sole domain of criminal courts.
And also barring more competent people from knitting tennis socks, if they can do so cheaper and better than existing providers. And ditto building housing and offices.
And STASI dependent Income and Sales taxes.
Etc.,etc.
BEVs are just the latest in a long line of what made America a third world dump, and by now a worse place for a child to be born in than Russia.
Good. Take your ev crap and go bk for all I care.
Keep huffing on your Diesel Fumes. Nothing like breathing Poisonous Fumes from exhaust to give you cancer and cause Respiratory Diseases and other illnesses.
Remind me of where the electricity to charge an EV comes from.
Guess we don’t care about the child slave labor in Africa mining cobalt by hand either, huh?
That’s $5 billion in stimulus the government didn’t have borrow.
Just another example of mandates that won’t happen because they are impractical.
The US automakers cannot compete with low cost Chinese EVs. I suspect that Chinese EV manufacturers will eventually set up shop in the US. (similar to what European, Japanese and Korean auto companies did).
In the meantime, Ford is refocusing its efforts on plug-in hybrids, which consumers are more likely to purchase than straight EVs.
Personally, I have been suggesting for quite some time now that plug-in hybrids are a better alternative in the US for the next decade rather than EVs.
plug in cost thousands more for a little annual saving in the gas pumps. If u like ev buy ev. If u like ICE buy ICE, but don’t buy the whole spectrum in between.
If your IQ is below 80 … buy an EV
So, which EV do you own?
Nonsense. It’s a choice.
You are paying more for the flexibility and convenience of a dual system.
Charge at home; rarely go to a gas station. Use the fuel that is cheaper for you at the time. Eliminate the range anxiety and planning involved in EV charging. And if you need to replace your battery eventually, it is a fraction of the cost and size of a straight EV battery.
Same goes for your home. Some have multiple heat sources; electric heat, fossil fuel, heat pump, woodstove, etc. Or your electric source; grid, renewable, generator. People pay extra for flexibility.
Plugin cars cost thousands more. Add $200/$600 for a home charger and higher utility bills. Repairs of the “sophisticated” system cost thousands more. Only a few mechanics know how to fix it. Plugin battery cost less than ev battery, but more than a $100/$150 for ICE. The battle between ev and ev step bros and sis remind me of the VCR sumo fight between Sony, Panasonic and Hitachi. The US gov finance highly skilled workers in Oak Ridge, Argonne, robotics, AI, self driving machines, chips, nano and pharma. Highly skilled Chinese and Japanese workers benefited from ev and plugin. F**k them.
For most Americans, the “sweet spot” is likely Prius style, small-battery, non-plug-in gasoline hybrids. Americans mostly drive too far too fast, for plug ins to earn their keep: Few trips can be made only on battery, and once the engine is running anyway, the added weight of the larger batteries, and the increased complication, serves only as drags.
In parts of Asia and Europe, things can be different:Fuel prices are higher versus electricity prices, driving distances shorter, speeds mostly lower…There, plug ins can make more sense for more people.
But here, the Prius, and relatives, are overwhelmingly likely still king for most (sub)urban consumers. In the boons, like it is for many Germans, the most efficient and sensible may well be straight diesel ICEs. For sitting steadily at 90+,out in the open, for the vast majority of driven miles, and perhaps even hours, nothing beats diesels. But aside from corner cases, standard gas hybrids are now the gold standard for overall efficiency, complexity and cost.
Modern autos collect all kinds of information that can help build personal and business profiles of their users. That info can be easily transmitted elsewhere.
If you think Washington politicians are unhappy with cellphone apps like TikTok that collect personal info, what do you think their reaction will be to cars, robots or any other technology built in any other country, except the USA?
No one seems to be discussing this point.
No problem Jojo. Just don’t use a car or a cell phone. And if I were you, I would find and remove all the hidden cameras that the govt put in your house as well.
I’m not the one worried. I am attempting to equate what Washington DC politicians are worried about with TikTok with ANY “smart” technology coming from China or in fact, any other country, such as France, Japan, South Korea, India, etc..
End all EV subsidies. People that want them are going to buy them regardless.
Or dont and wont
HONG KONG — Tesla is skidding in Hong Kong, where city authorities earlier this year slashed tax incentives on purchases of new electric vehicles.
The cars were once eligible for full exemptions but now come with a tax break up to only 97,500 Hong Kong dollars ($12,488). This means Tesla’s Model 3 sedan now costs over $120,000, nearly 80% more than it did with the total exemption.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-sales-screech-to-a-halt-in-Hong-Kong
…AND end all oil / natural gas subsidies!
You’re barking at $5 billion/yr in U.S. solar/wind/EV subsidies each year, but have no problem with $100 billion/yr in direct subsidies & $trillions in indirect subsidies each year.
Oil & natural gas companies are screwing you, making $trillions in profits, and killing the planet — but yeah, the government is the bad guy.
“the government is the bad guy.”
They are the ones handing out the “subsidies” after all.
There’s nothing special about EVs. Just end ALL subsidies. Starting with the utterly useless “banks”making up the childbrained racket referred to as “The Syyyyystem.” And including EVs, oil and ALL the rest.
Simple solution, just like with all renewable energy projects… Have the taxpayer subsidize the price by 85%. Then the price becomes reasonable and people will start buying them. Sure, it will increase our deficit. But when you’re 35 trillion in debt, what’s a trillion here or a trillion there? As a matter of fact… If half of the blacks in the country get half of the reparations deal that the San Francisco board created… We will add over 120 trillion to our debt. Then. Certainly who cares about another trillion or two in EV subsidies
I will assume this is meant to be sarcasm
Brilliant!
How out of touch are these companies to pour many billions into a small-market product? I can only imagine group think and too much time in the beltway.
Maybe the execs see the plan in WDC to ban ICE cars either directly or via rising CAFE standards becoming a back-door ICE ban (that’s what toyota is implying … they are moving to 100% hybrid by 2030 to sell into US).
Communists infiltrated those companies.
There’s 17 Million EVs that will be sold Globally this year. The BEST Selling Vehicle in the World last year was an EV.
The US only sells about 16 Million Vehicles TOTAL per year, sonEVs are larger than the ENTIRE US auto market.
The largest Auto Market in the ENTIRE world just passed 50% Plug-ins. People who are pretending that EVs aren’t already a LARGE market are kidding themselves.
Stupidity is infinite… I trust you are aware of that
There are always the true believers Ed.
Those that get their scientific knowledge from Wikipedia.
“How out of touch are these companies to pour many billions into a small-market product?”
100%. All of them. In ever field. Anywhere in America.
After all: Their owners, executives and all others with any say; are given their positions of influence specifically BECAUSE they are completely sycophantic retards fully and totally dependent on Fed wealth transfers their way for all they will ever have.
Unless you have tariff walls to keep Chinese EVs and conventional cars out then within a few years you will have no car industry at all. Here in Australia we closed our last car manufacturing plant 5 years ago and Chinese imports are the fastest growing supplier. My wife’s little MG is from China after she traded in her little Japanese car 2 years ago. My son purchased a Chinese SUV 2 weeks ago to replace his dual cab. Half the pickups I see on the construction sites I work are brands like Great Wall.
Now Mish thinks tariffs are bad, but is having no car industry better?
What do you need it for?
Is it worth over paying by thousands of dollars on a new car to keep 200K people employed in union jobs? That’s what it amounts to. Just subsidizing 200K peoples jobs at union wages.
If they would make them here in small towns at 10-15/hr then maybe it would make sense.
Thank You!
It’s worse than that! We are forced to subsidize workers who are paid more that us.
Customers aren’t against EVs. Customers are simply smart enough to realize they are currently over priced and have not hit the critical threshold of 400 REAL miles per charge and a charge time of 20 minutes. That’s coming with solid state batteries and then they’ll sale without the Federal subsidy.
I’m a customer and I’m against EV’s
20 minutes is still WAY too long. ICE fill ups are under 5. Needs to be under 10 to reach 80% charge before consumers will take them seriously.
And the accuracy of the “fuel gauge” needs to improve drastically.
That’s difficult to do since the electron drawdown is quite variable.
Nope. EV owners charge their vehicles at night and usually wake up with a full battery. Thus ZERO time spent at a charger outside their home.
This is primarily Fossil Fuels FUD.
I do enjoy stopping for a few minutes and filling up with another 400 miles… whenever I want.
As opposed to charging a car with coal/gas generated electricity over the course of many hours
But then I do have an IQ over 80
The general population as a rule is not that anal retentive.
Not everyone is a homeowner with a plug in option available.
Maybe 50% of the population has that luxury at best. It might be far lower than that so many EV owners will have to charge at the equivalent of a gas station.
If we could only work out how to reduce the IQ of most people to below 80…. EVs will dominate the market
I am sure most Democrats drive EVs then.
I have no interest in purchasing an EV until they are a one for one, or better, swap with ICE vehicles in terms of price (including maintenance, repairs, and insurance), range, refueling time, and a comparable availability of experienced mechanics out there to work them.
So take out U.S. Gov’t subsidies for oil, and gasoline goes up to $7/gallon. Spend $50 to $100 a week on gas? Or get a few solar panels & drive for free.
Even if you don’t go solar & just plug in, at $0.30/kWh, you have a full “tank” for just $18.
Let EVs & ICE compete on a level playing field, without subsidies.
IF I’m living in Calgary or Winnipeg, I go with what works, and that’s ICE (even tho everyone plugs their car into the engine block heaters).
Let ’em compete, and to each, their own.
Almost NOBODY needs 400 miles of range. Most people in the US drive ONE TENTH of that amount per day.
This is Fossil Fuels FUD. People who actually OWN EVs usually charge at night and wake up with a full battery.
This isn’t an actual problem for 90% of new car buyers.
Why would I pay 30% more for a vehicle that cannot do what an ICE vehicle can do? What is the purpose?
I’m sure people who live in apartments can charge there cars overnight, don’t think so.
About 27 percent of people live in condos
About 35 percent rent
~50 percent do not have immediate access to a charger
Another 20% or so (guessing at this number more than above) at least occasionally drive beyond the range of a charge.
And those in cold area have even more concern.
So stop the bullshit about no problem for 90% of the population.
Perhaps you work in the Ministry of Needs. Do you know why kids thought Roadrunner was so funny? What was printed on Wile E. Coyote’s business card?
Yes I am going to be the next centre for the LA Lakers … it’s coming
20 minutes??? I need 5 minutes from when I pull up until when I exit with a FULL tank of electrons to give an EV any real consideration.
Toyota for the win.
Toyota is getting its butt kicked in China…or better to say getting booted out of China, and will lose market share rapidly as everywhere else shifts to EVs.
If it weren’t for BIG OIL spewing Fossil Fuels FUD the drama would be over already.
So I guess charging an EV does not use Big Oil fossil fuels, unless you get your power from nuclear or hydro? David you’re delusional.
How will they compete with China if they’re not even making EVs?
They’re getting their butts kicked in China and as Chinese Brands expand in South America and Europe, Toyota will lose massive market share by the end of the decade.
I don’t understand why vehicle makers haven’t made more non-plug-in-hybrids. I now have 2 Toyotas that run on gasoline or battery (though limited miles). I don’t worry about range, or paying an electrician to ‘modify’ my garage power-outlets to supply an EV. I can even park either one outside my garage for weeks at a time, with nary a cable going to it, and still drive off.
Because those cars are going away. The entire world is wired for electricity and as Battery Storage continues to grow, Gasoline and Diesel will rapidly hit a ceiling of usage. China is by FAR the largest auto market in the world and they are already at 50% Plug-ins. Europe is following rapidly and even the US will follow as prices on EVs continue to go down.
And where do you think China gets most of its electricity? Coal fired plants that’s where. Try some critical thinking before you tell us how great EVs are. Ice or EVs are using hydrocarbons for power, not fairy dust.
“Thank you President Biden, AOC, Elizabeth Warren, and everyone else who created this mess.”
Don’t forget Chuck Schumer.
He rebranded the Green New Deal spending orgy, “The Inflation Reduction Act”.
Ultimately thank the US taxpayers. We are the ones going to be on the hook for the government bailout.
The market keeps shrugging at everything. Fed likely cuts in September. They will do everything they can to avoid having to deal with 4 more years of Trump. I’ve been saying this for awhile now. Now there is news of Harris getting support from Wall Street. Seems only the hedge fund billionaires like Trump. Which is exactly what Harris has been saying in messaging. The instability of Trump is disastrous for Wall Street and the Fed. Stable growth even at slow growth levels is better than the chaos of Trump.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/kamala-harris-winning-over-wall-110003520.html
Wut? Wall Street wants her economic plan?
She’s a blank slate that can be changed. This election is less about economic plans than it is stability vs chaos.
Strangely, the chaos you talk about is why Trump polls higher on the economy than she does, aka, his 4 years are thought of as far from chaos.
Nah, The entire country was SHUT DOWN under Trump. Or did you forget the Entire fourth Year of his term?? Did you forget about him firing nearly ALL of his major cabinet members?? Or did you forget about him sucking up to the leaders of N Korea and Russia??
Nah, he’s gone whackadoodle crazy since he left the office.
Fauci and Birx wanted the economy shut down.
And Harris is – of all things – stable??
LOL
21 percent cumulative inflation in 3.5 years is far from stable. It’s been a disaster
A blank slate is the worst kind of person. It’s someone who stands for nothing and is for sale to the highest bidder. Which most assuredly won’t be the average American.
Which is exactly what the Angry Orange Dictator wannabe wants to be. He’s for sale to the highest bidders and STATED that. Give him a $ BILLION Dollars and he’ll put the Standard OIL Trust back together. He’s so blatantly corrupt that he doesn’t even try to hide it anymore.
Harris wouldn’t be Queen Harris. She doesn’t get to wave a wand and say “make it happen”. Whatever economic measures she wants to push will have to be in concert with Congress AND the FED.
But of course, you and everyone else with half a brain knows this.
Are you touching Biden’s hairy legs right now?
Way too early for EVs . . . U.S. following Europe with mounting losses . . . Chinese and Koreans will end up owning this market.
Nonsense. There’s about 17 MILLION plugins that will be sold THIS year. That’s MORE sales Globally than the ENTIRE US Auto Market.
GM is just incompetent and burning massive $$$ on Stock Buybacks instead of Automation and improving manufacturing efficiency.
Pretending that the US Auto market is somehow a global leader, is beyond ridiculous. GM and Ford will likely collapse during the next economic downturn.
Get Ready for GM bailouts 2.0
How many trillions are needed to upgrade the grid …
How do you make money when 40% of the vehicle is battery cost, and you don’t own any of it?
How do you make money when you have to pay your competitor for charging network and software? Ford has to fit Tesla software, and pay more for charging than Teslas.
Have to maintain a dealership network, while Tesla sells online. The youth will say: thanks for the scammy dealerships and buy Tesla.
Ford changed its business plan. When a F-550 crew reach a worksite it’s doing nothing all day, before returning to the homebase. Fill the tank in gas stations can cost $200. Workers fill 20 gallons jerricans for their own usage, selling to a few friends. Ev can save money. The cost of producing and assembling a F-550 engine is higher than ev engine.
What? That same crew many times is hauling a backhoe or supplies. Because of the storms, roofing crews around my house are moving loads of used roofing out of the worksites. Sometimes, two times a day. I never see jerrycans.
Ev engines are powerful enough to carry supply and a large battery. Simple to assemble, weight less with less parts. Once on site they do nothing all day, before returning to the home base to recharge. Jerricans are 20 gallons fuel cans.
Ford already produced engines to install in pickup trucks and vans. Ford stay away from suv and small cars ev, before China eat them alive. Blue collar workers will never buy Ilan cyber trucks. Toyota cannot compete with Ford transit vans ev and F-550 ev.
They do not weight less. There is not a single EV version of a vehicle that weights less than its ICE counterpart. They typically weight 20% more and higher.
with the battery
An that’s why tires need to be changed much more frequently
$$$$$$$
The EV hauling or towing range is about half of their usual range, depending on weight. And that is considering a relatively flat road.
Small backhoes typically weigh between 7,000 and 10,000 pounds (3.5 to 5 metric tons), while larger can weigh up to 25,000 pounds. EVs are not going to move these around any distance.
If you can’t make an EV profitably then you better not make them at all.
Then in the VERY near future you will not be making any vehicles at all. GM will lose nearly half it Global Sales because they’re losing most of their ICE sales in China.
Europe will continue to go more EVs every year. This is already past the tipping point and will continue decreasing ICE sales every year.
Yes, GM blew it
.
It’s not so long ago that Biden assured us that Barra’s GM was leading the world’s EV revolution. How soon we forget.
The irony is that EVs are not selling for the same reasons they didn’t sell appropriately 120 years ago—distance, power, and reliability. Only ladies who did not like crank starters and only drove around town bought the early EVs. They were fine for that small segment of the market.
Roughly same demographic — virtue signalling, wealthy (or at least wealth-signalling) soccer moms who never go more than 5 miles from home.
You forgot to mention how they have two cars… the EV to look hip… then a real car for longer trips…
Most EVs are bought and driven by Men. But keep telling yourself that it will all just go away if you bury your head in the sand.
Remove the subsidies and EVs will be as rare as a black swan
EVs are the black swan for the US car industry.
There’s about 17 MILLION plugins that will be sold Globally this year. MORE than ALL Vehicles Sold in the Entire US market.
Pretending that EVs haven’t already reached 50% in the World’s Largest Auto Market is just not being aware of reality.
No worries, President Kamala (*Shudder*) will put Price Controls on that Evil EV Price Gouger Ford compan and FORCE them to bring back the EV SUV for the comrades! /sarc
I truly wish I disagreed with you
EV prices are continuing to go DOWN while ICE prices continue to rise. How do you think that ends for overpriced ICE vehicles??
ICE vehicles cost the same, but the Fed made the dollars less valuable.
The gang green is strong with you. IC vehicle prices rising due to non market forces. Government compliance costs designed to strangle IC vehicles. Declaring CO2 a pollutant, same gas coming out of your piehole, is part of the scam conspiracy.
Another victory for woke