Hello Curve Watchers, the Yield Curve is Steepening, Just Not in the Normal Sense

Treasury yields from the New York Fed, chart by Mish

Anticipating where the 3-month yield will be in May is much easier than figuring out where the 10-year yield will be. 

The Fed has penciled in quarter-point hikes in February and March with decent odds of yet another hike in May. The market agrees with that assessment.

Target Rate Probabilities for May 3

Target rate probabilities from CME Fedwatch. 

The Fed’s Commitment and Credibility 

Numerous Fed officials have repeated they will hike more than the market expects and stay there longer. 

I don’t doubt that unless something breaks in a major way. If the Fed gets in hikes in February and March, then the 3-month Treasury note will start inching towards 5 percent possibly as soon as April. 

The Fed ridiculously kept QE going all the way to March of 2022 for no reason other than it said it would. 

Supposedly, that maintained credibility. They did not want to shock the market by doing something unexpected.

Now, the Fed has promised to hike rates more and stay they longer. They probably will do so to maintain credibility.

The Fed would have more credibility if it did not yap its intent to market Pavlov’s dogs. Forward guidance blew up in the Fed’s face and I expect that to happen again.

Yield Curve Comments

No Recession Until When? 

I saw a Tweet yesterday that caught my eye but I can no longer find it.

It said “No recession until the yield curve steepens.” Well the curve has been steepening, just not in the normal sense.

I don’t buy the theory. Here is a similar Tweet.

No 2023 Recession

Economic data has been terrible and I expect huge negative revisions to jobs, income, and GDP at some point. 

It would not at all be shocking if we were in recession already. 

Sobering Thought on When the Market Bottoms

Existing Home Sales Decline 10th Month

Existing home sales from the National Association of Realtors via St. Louis Fed

Note that Existing Home Sales Decline 10th Month, Down Another 7.7 Percent

Never before have we seen a housing collapse like this outside of recession. 

Terrible Economic Data

The December jobs report was anemic and the ISM services PMI was an outright disaster.

Although housing in the gutter and the rest of the economy sinking fast, the Fed is  committed to a course of action to maintain credibility. 

To steepen in the traditional sense first requires the curve to flatten. With the Fed holding rates higher for longer, that won’t easily happen unless the Fed panics due to a credit event. 

So, don’t count on the yield curve steepening as a signal for recession. Here is a key idea regarding the stock market:

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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Jackula
Jackula
3 years ago
How does China coming out of the pandemic shortly play into this? I am expecting an inflationary spike in raw materials and energy. Tell me if I’m wrong …
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
“It would not at all be shocking if we were in recession already.”
My gawd! Stop! Just stop, Mish! You’re beating the same drum you did last summer clamoring about the inventory induced negative GDP / head fake recession. Until home construction slows enough to start pushing up 1st-time unemployment claims, then a recession isn’t in the cards.
30YFRM just dropped 36 basis points in the last two days, approaching 6%. If the fed takes its foot off the gas pedal at the end of the month via a 25-basis point increase, the 30YFRM will begin a slow decline towards 5%. Without REAL JOB LOSES, housing is going to start to stabilize once the 30YFRM passes 5.5% as it heads towards 5%. This may happen as early as March, just in time for spring ramp up in home sales.
Mostly part-time jobs or not, the labor market hasn’t started to skid yet. It’s that simple.
JeffD
JeffD
3 years ago
So, according to historical data, recession has the highest probability of hitting six to twelve months from *today*.
Thetenyear
Thetenyear
3 years ago
Who is going to invest long-term when you can make 30% more in three months(4.67%) than you can in 120 months(3.55%)? And what happens when long-term investment dries up because short-term opportunities are so much better?
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
“The spread between the US 3M yield and the US 30Y yield widens every day. That is an indication that those calling for an imminent US recession have no idea what they’re talking about. The countdown to a recession will start only when the yield curve uninverts (many months away).”
Exhibit A: Of A General Fighting The Last War.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
US3M is hooked to JP belly button. US10Y have more freedom. As long as Koruda and madam ECB are down below, GRAVITY with their
long duration will pull US long duration down. The yield curve is more defective than the mechanical jaw econ101 prof.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
“The yield curve is more defective than the mechanical jaw econ101 prof.”
A point many fail to consider: The percentage of treasuries along the curve is far from static. Constantly evolving as Treasury issuance done at TBAC recommendation.
Counter
Counter
3 years ago
Who benefited from QE? They knew what would happen
The Fed ridiculously kept QE going all the way to March of 2022 for no reason other than it said it would.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Reply to  Counter
The Fed kept us alive, gave us vaccine, saved our businesses & restaurants, financed our online games, fridg, and washing machines, clicked $10K to shingle mums, tens of thousands in PPP loans and millions in EIDL loan at 3.5% plus grants. People hate JP for giving them so little…
JeffD
JeffD
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Since we have no knowledge of what would have happened if the Fed hadn’t stepped in, there is no evidence that the Fed “saved” anything from its reckless actions (plural), in tandem with government’s reckless actions (plural).
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
US 6M is the highest. If the Dow & SPX fail to reach the min threshold above, the 10Y will dive and the yield curve will further steepen. If SPX breach Aug high the 10Y might rise > the 6M. Too early to tell. Bond traders might salivate one day when SPX reach it’s long term targets.
Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
The steepening of the 3 month yield and 10 year treasury yield is getting worse on 01/09/2023.
I believe the ceiling is 5%. However, the FED may keep that rate for possibly all of 2023 or longer.
Market expects a quick FED pivot as that is all the market has known for the past 14 years?
If so, expect inflation to go through the roof and watch those zombie corporations continue to walk.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
mish, i am cutting and pasting a paragraph from shadow stats. the man that runs the place deserves a nobel prize in economics. even larry summers admitted they are correct. SHADOW STATS : “CONTINUING EXPLOSIVE MONEY SUPPLY GROWTH PROMISES A CONTINUING SURGE IN INFLATION: November 2022 “Basic M1” Money Supply (Currency plus Checking Accounts), notched higher to 121.5% above its Pre-Pandemic Trough, up from its 120.3% near-term trough, still shy of its August 2023 123.3% peak, but still moving to a new 52-year peak level of systemic liquidity, having absorbed and held the equivalent of 23.6-years of normal Monetary Stimulus in the 2.9 years since the Pandemic Shutdown. Even the headline Aggregate Money Supply M2 has absorbed 14-years of normal stimulus. Given that extreme, inflation bloating cannot pass easily, without some meaningful reduction in the most-liquid Money Supply measures, well beyond just slowing broad money growth.”
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Shadowstats is a hyperinflation nut case.
Using his numbers the economy has been in perpetual recession for most of three decades.
Simply nuts.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Shadowstats serves a purpose.
When anyone starts to quote it, I know it is time to tune out.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
that is just not the case, my good man, mish. whether you think HE is a nut or not is not the point. go to his GDP graph dating back decades and he does NOT put us in perpetual recession. in fact only a few short periods. i really don’t care whether you care for his analysis or not, or what you think of him. meaningless to me. but he clearly in his GDP graph only has us going negative about 4 or 5 times since the early 1980s. thought you would perhaps like his perspectives. he’s been correct on money supply imho. as a many decades FX and equity trader, i find him invaluable. anyway you do a nice job, too. i just disagree with your trailing year plus analysis on fed and inflation. so what. makes a market.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
I would say, the truth is somewhere in between Shadowstats and the official stats.
I doubt, Shadowstats collect data like the official survey, you know, the one done with the rotary dial phones.
The housing inflation should make Shadowstats proud.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
economics is a soft science. there are no proven laws like gravity or two H and one O equals water……. it’s animal spirits of men. so whether shadow stats or mish or me or anyone on this site or world says it is inflation or a recession is always debatable. it was properly in the philosophy departments of the great universities for many centuries. only recently was economics considered a “hard science”. there is a reason for the transformation, but alas another story.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Agreed, there are no defined parameters for economic growth, e.g.
1. How much government debt was created to keep the economy above water?
2. How much total debt was created for 1% growth of GDP.
3. Is inflation calculation a reliable indicator?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
correcto mundo, to quote fonzie
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
I say (non-growth) businesses and households are in tip-top shape with cash in the bank and low debt obligations. New retirees will spend more on travel and healthcare than ever before as they are healthier and live longer. Workers in their 20s will live at their parents McMansion without rent and spend like crazy. With two job openings for each unemployed person, those losing their jobs are re-employed within three months. The total situation does not portend a ‘crash’ in 2023, except maybe in stocks getting lower multiples.
Inflation and volume problems are supply problems, not demand problems. The Great Lockdown killed supply of businesses and labor. Climate change policy killing supply of energy. Building codes killed the supply of entry-level homes. New chip fab capacity undershoots future need because it is really risky to build a chip line and not have orders. U.S. is short labor, housing, energy, computer chips, rare earth metals, etc… We can’t build anything fast or cheap here, so turning the ship is going to be slow.
The cure for inflation is inflation, so inflation will fall as prices for discretionary goods rise and volume falls. Then a wave of productivity improvements will help. Already happening in restaurants with electronic menus, in other businesses with new cloud software apps, less travel, etc… The tough nuts are costs of food and healthcare. Education used to be in that group, but behavior is changing there too. Remote learning equals more students per class. People forgoing useless degree programs.
Next last significant element of this down cycle is rising long rates, which will impact long term investments in the things we need to relieve the supply constraints, dooming the U.S. to very low growth for years. As Wall Street reprices for lower growth, stock market multiple will fall.
Nostradamus out.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  xbizo
i like how you think. good stuff. i see green shoots. jobs for anyone who wants one. people only worked 40 years and will retire for 20 or 30 if healthy. stocks and bonds and FX and r/e will be like they always are. places to speculate and invest. i’m licking my chops dreaming about rising cap rates on r/e so i can re purchase the multi family housing i sold off first half of 2022. might be another 2 to 5 years i guess. who knows. i do know most r/e did not get back to 2007 highs for about 14 years or so, depending on city and county. and with currency worth half the price, we all get the flim flam of high pricing. anyone here remember penny bazooka bubble gum? fed and treasury bazooka gun killed the currency. my benjamin buys bubkiss
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Thanks Vanderlyn. I’m just seeing things that I think are drivers, not secondary indicators with weak relationships to actual cash flow. In real estate, I think rising rents (supply shortage) offset rising cap rates. So two forces are working against each other as far as RE prices are concerned.
I know the market bottom here after the 2008 recession was 2013-2014. Not sure what to think about this cycle. But I think RE price declines will be mild. Rents here went up 14% this year.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
I remember when the Mars Bar was the only ten cent candy bar because all the other candy bars were a nickel.
It was a treat, but it was occasionally worth it.
Nickel candy bars were bigger than the ones now for a dollar.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  xbizo
“The tough nuts are costs of food and healthcare.” It was rather dry in the San Juaquine Valley, which produces a lot of American food. Rainy this winter, so far, though. RFK Jr. was talking last week about chronic childhood illness, which he said affected 6% of children in 1968 and 54% in 2006.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
the poison in what amerikans call food is really brutal. no wonder the kids and volks in middlebrow world are sickk and fat etc…….what an indictment on the values of our system. i vote in italy, too. the slop here wouldn’t be fed to dogs over there.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  xbizo
“Inflation and volume problems are supply problems, not demand problems.”
The facts say otherwise.
Latest (November) year over year inventories. 2021 left long ago.
Wholesale … +21.0%
Retail … +18.4%
Advance wholesale inventories
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Demand in retail is waning due to higher prices. I would guess that these are discretionary items.
Wages are up. That discretionary money and wage increase is going other places – food, housing and energy.
Going from one pocket to another, but no visible cascading throughout the economy. I will guess GDP at 1% for the year.
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
I think they’ll be another 100bp of hikes by the summer with a little more in the second half of the year. If the 3 month rises to 5.67 or thereabouts the 10 year would be at 4.55 with the same negative 112bp. Maybe it’d invert more but even so, it costs to fund a long 10 year position so you have to be very bullish to justify being very long.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
no clue about amount, but the direction is clear as a bell. higher rates. i’d suspect they’ll play politics in 2024 and in spring or summer of 2024 maybe bail out sleepy joe. i heard 6 months ago from men deep in the deep state spook world……… prisoner swaps were on the way and by 2024 actual CIA paratroops that Putin has, will be exchanged for Biden putting russia back on petro dollar.
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
I’m only guessing about the amount of course but I do think they’re getting fed up with the market doubting their resolve.
I agree about the politics next year but they won’t want to trigger another inflationary surge.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
“If the 3 month rises to 5.67 or thereabouts the 10 year would be at 4.55 with the same negative 112bp.”
Are you sure?
They are moving in opposite directions. In the past 2 months the yield on 3 month has risen 40 bps … while the yield on 10 yr has dropped 60 bps.
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
You misunderstood.
I’ll rephrase:
If the 3 month rises to 5.67 and the curve remains at a negative 112bp, the 10 year would be at 4.55.
I’m not suggesting it will stay at 112bp
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
Gotcha
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
mish, are you endorsing the FED, the keeper of our currency, to NOT be so transparent on what they are going to be doing? i suspect i read this incorrectly. i’d hate to go back to the days of FED doing stuff, and then, if they want to announce what they already had done. i’m a classical libera/libertarian. i like sunlight. of course i would prefer sound money. there are historical currencies that were sound for centuries. i think the record is about 700 to 800 years. i think the plague affect has changed everything. including the rate inversions being all that important presently. i was in the camp, {thanks to my affiliation with some brilliant anthropologists who study plagues for decades,} that by new years eve, 2019 turning 2020, that this world wide plague would take at least 5 years to work it’s affects in the world, physicially and economically and lifestyle and immigration. all my wall street trader pals, who are my lifelong friends and colleagues, could NOT even comprehend what i was saying. they thought it was no big deal at first, and then thought it would be done within weeks or months. i submit the plague affect is still with us. one marker as an example. china opening up today, 3 years after the WUHAN outbreak. not insignificant.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
The Covid plague was treatable. Fareed and Tyson proved that. THE plague, was the very public health agencies that were supposed to protect us from disease.
The CDC’s latest cat out of the bag: via FOIA, 770 adverse event safety signals were triggered in VAERS, including death, for the Covid shots. Steve Kirsch, using the CDC’s own criteria, weeks ago stated the VAERS death safety signal had been triggered. At the time, the CDC refused to acknowledge it.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
personally, i think sweden played it correctly. but not my point. my point is the world reacted to the plague in a fashion that was historically similar to how human primates react to them in many thousands of years of documenting them. the point was it’s a monumental and very long black swan affect.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
People were lead to react that way. The outcome would have been different, if HCQ was not deliberately blocked, for a predetermined agency agenda of mass vaccination. One of the things Steve Kirsh said in an interview, was that simply using a saline nasal spray, would have cut risk of hospitalization by 80%. There were things people could have done, even without HCQ, that would have helped protect them, but the public health agencies and medical authorities were silent about them. Fauci was taking 8,000 IU of vitamin D a day, but did not recommend the public take any vitamin D supplementation.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
YES. human primates are led by their silver backs to react to many events. from plagues to wars………..this we all know. i’m interested in seeing if new house will investigate cuomo and others for helping to kill off the nursing home patients through idiocy or deliberate actions. fauci is an obvious corporate fascist tool, and was too scared to level with the country, as was so many others. again, in the rich world, i think sweden handled it best.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
It was agenda that drove Fauci. Mass vaccination was chosen, over treating Covid patients with existing anti viral drugs and other means. Even if it would have worked, Covid patients that died in 2020, didn’t have the time to wait for a mass vaccination program. What happened was by deliberate choice, not by accident. All those who warned of the consequences were ignored or smeared. The dangers of the Covid shots are being ignored as well.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
The world reacted to the plague as if it was the Black Death, i.e. not knowing what hit you.
But then again, the number of “spreaders” has exploded 10,000 times since the Black Death, so maybe it was proportionate.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Get vaccinated.
It suppresses symptoms and makes you an invisible spreader.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
1.1million US deaths from the disease, and here’s Dr. Kookenstein trumpeting 770 ‘adverse event safety signals’ from the vaccine.
You awaken in a room. As you stand up a voice booms: “Adverse safety event signal or DEATH! CHOOSE!”
What’s your choice?

RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Zardoz, you know you are not correct. Fareed and Tyson prevented any of their Covid patients from dying, by treating them with HCQ and IVM, when they got sick. It wasn’t the disease that killed 1.1 million. It was the lack of prompt proper medical treatment that caused most Covid deaths.
I had Covid and didn’t die. I self treated. Omicron was like a mild cold, anyway.
Embalmers are finding rubbery amyloid clots in dead vaccinated people. I chose not to risk that.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
You need to compare the number of lives saved by the vaccine to the number of deaths from the vaccine to make a valid argument in favor of the vaccines. Not the number who died from the illness. And there’s no way to tell how many lives were saved. But the number is certainly far lower than the number of people vaccinated.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
U.S. Deaths rates drop in 2022, But Still Higher Than Pre-Pandemic Levels. The gluttony induced Baby Boomer Die off continues. A third of Baby Boomers are gone even before their life expectancy age has been reached. The bulk of these premature deaths occurred before covid. 2022 reports only 120,00 purported Covid deaths for the year and yet overall deaths are up despite covids deminished impact.
“Deaths are expected to remain about 13% higher than 2019 numbers for
2022. But they should be 7% lower than in 2021 and 3% lower than in
2020, based on an estimate of the first 11 months of 2022, the Associated Press reported.”
The crescendo of Boomer deaths began as early as 2013.
The sheer numbers of Baby Boomers reaching advanced age is telling, and overall US deaths will increase substantially with or without covid.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
Steve Kirsch: “The first large geriatric practice I spoke with has nearly 1,000
patients over 65 and they see around 11 deaths each year. It fluctuates
every year with sigma= 3.3, exactly as predicted from Poisson
distribution statistics. But in 2022, they had 36 deaths which is a 7.5
sigma event. So that couldn’t have happened by chance. The excess deaths
were all attributed to the COVID vaccine by the doctor and nurse in
that clinic.”
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
I agree. The demographic problem I state is compounded by medical experimentation which you call to our attention. This is a double whammy which only makes matters worse. I lost two elderly friends in the last 6 months, and life was no picnic before their passing. Keeping on topic, I imagine that these uncertainties make only secure short term holdings with a reasonable return attractive.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Am I endorsing the Fed?
Have you read much of anything I have written since 2003?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
i thought this following passage from your blog post meant you wanted less transparency in their guidance. sue me for mis interpreting. sometimes the written word can be. of course i know you despise the FED. like all properly clear eyed people, do. your testiness seems quite telling. i’ll assume you are having a bad day. your words “The Fed would have more credibility if it did not yap its intent to market Pavlov’s dogs. Forward guidance blew up in the Fed’s face and I expect that to happen again.
JeffD
JeffD
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
When the Fed became “trasparent” in the 1980s, we got the financialization of the economy as a result. I preferred a Fed pre-1980s that gave *no clue* to what its future actions would be.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
i preferred the old days when only wall street bond traders knew who the fed chair was. i forgot which one said years after, in his day most amerikans thought the federal reserve was a bonded whiskey. the old days of insider trading and keeping the money among the wealthy suited me fine. i’m old and born on 3rd base in a hood of bond traders. the democracization of info for the middlebrows is hooey. i do concur. but i also like seeing how they broadcast where they are going now that i’m old and just trade my own dough.

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