Trump would not have had this issue with Putin. Trump was not antagonizing Russia but trying to get Germany to limit gas purchases using the marketplace. Germany ignored this, and when Biden came in, big Intel and Defense started that whole NATO expansion crap all over again
dmartin
1 year ago
You failed to mention human rights sanctions. Trump would have done none against our allies and likely would not have sanctioned China over human rights which eventually pushed China over the edge towards Russia and the cementing of the relationship between these two countries in the Olympics.
El_Tedo
1 year ago
Trump DID win. What you mean is, If The Election Wasn’t Stolen …
You don’t even have to “hack the election” by computer. You can cheat by a thousand cuts. Steal ballots, harvest ballots, print mail-in ballots(should have a QR code) in bulk, find dead people’s ballots, limit voting machines in areas you don’t like via secretary of state of the state, do countermarketing, run bots on social networks, hide information(Hunter Biden), ban accounts, peek at mail in ballots and toss them and on and on. All of the above were claimed as events, but individual events didn’t “affect” the election…but in bulk(like Bush/Gore) threw tossup states to the best cheat.
Carl_R
1 year ago
Good post, Mish, and I agree with virtually all of it. I do think that the Ukraine situation would be different today if Trump was re-elected. I think Trump would have been largely silent about it and allowed Russia to do whatever they could. After all, Putin is a genius.
The one difference I think you missed is this: Starting in November 2020, Trump moved aggressively to replace persons in the defense department with loyalists, and especially to replace those who were unwilling to use the military against civilians, but it was too little, too late. I think Trump, if re-elected, would have spent the last year and a half consolidating power in the defense department. His events of January 6th were not all that dangerous, mostly because there wasn’t enough time to prepare, but if given 4 full years to prepare, November of 2024 might have been a date with destiny.
It was Obama that spoke of fundamentally changing America.
Trump wanted National Guard Troops, to maintain order on Jan. 6. Pelosi blocked them on the false pretense of bad optics. However, she didn’t mind the bad optics of a security fence around the Capital building for political purposes.
You might have missed the person who was acquitted of all Jan. 6 charges because video was found that showed police opening up the barricades and a policeman waving a group into the Capitol. Also, for Mish, I think Trump would have been stronger on moving API manufacturing back to the US rather than just suggesting it. He could make a case saying it would be for National Security.
That, of course, was the hope for those that wished for a full insurrection. The hope was that the police and national guard would join in, or passively stand out of the way. Not all did, however; some stood up for the Republic. If Trump had four more years to prepare rather than 7-8 weeks, I fear that the outcome would have been different.
KidHorn
1 year ago
If Trump had won, maybe the senate election in GA would have turned out differently. Maybe the senate would have remained republican.
If Trump hadn’t sabotaged the two Republican candidates, the two Senate races might very well have turned out differently. Both Republicans were ahead when Trump ranted about the races, after which both were behind, and stayed that way. We can assume that, had Trump won, he wouldn’t have sabotaged the races, so you are most likely correct.
prumbly
1 year ago
President Trump is right that the US should get out of NATO. Hopefully the organization would then cease to exist.
NATO was set up with a single military purpose – the destruction of the Soviet Union. Once the Soviet Union dissolved, instead of NATO disappearing as it should have, they changed their goal to the military destruction of Russia. And then they decided to expand NATO and it spread like a deadly fungus across Europe, ever eastwards to the very doorstep of Russia. Anyone surprised that Russia should feel existentially threatened by this is living in a different reality.
So Germany working with Russia to create more dependence on natural gas was actually a covert plot to bring down Russia? Perhaps NATO would have made it to the borders of Russia. What then? Do you think NATO would have created a an excuse to invade Russia? Invade Russia, with it’s huge stockpile of Nukes? Or maybe they would have exposed Russian corruption to the people leading to demonstrations for real democracy??? Now that would truly have been a tragedy…
I thought Trump threatening to get out of NATO was a kick in the pants to countries who didn’t spend 2% of GDP on defense. However, the countries came around and are now spending at least 2% of GDP.
Agave
1 year ago
Steve Schmidt is revealing today how the Party of Putin (GOP) has been influenced and supported by Russia and Putin for decades, including under his old candidate McCain. It got worse and worse, until they virtually owned the NRA, trump, a slew of right wing extremist Senators (no doubt Jill Stein and Tulsi Gabbard will be looked at closer too), and a lot more. More details will be coming out, this is just getting started, and it is ugly, how they’ve been trying to infiltrate the US via the GOP for a long time.
The link on this is at the politicususa website, and Schmidt has also laid it out in a long twitter thread.
Russia, an autocratic kleptocracy with a theocratic bent, has a lengthy history of being thick as thieves with the Party of Putin (GOP).
We are doing the absolutely necessary thing by helping to stop their invasion of Ukraine.
Yeah right. And the peepee tape! Election fraud collusion! Funny how years of endless investigations found only one thing – that it was all made up by Democrat operatives, several of whom are now in prison.
“Steve Schmidt is revealing today how the Party of Putin (GOP) has been influenced and supported by Russia” – We should immediately set up a house committee to investigate. We should begin by asking anyone we don’t like “Are you now or have you ever been a member of…”
Do you remember during the 2016 campaign when Trump attendees wore t-shirts saying “I’d rather be Russian than democrat”? Or Putin grooming Trump for more than a decade? Putin probably never dreamed Trump would run and actually win but that didn’t mean he wasn’t going to try as well as with other politicians.
No matter who you vote for, you get John McCain. Who is president is meaningless. End the State!
Christoball
1 year ago
All Trump had to say to Putin was that Ukraine would not become a NATO country. He then needed to say that he does’nt like NATO either. Abracadabra no Russian invasion, no war in the Ukraine.
Completely wrong. Putin has been planning to invade Ukraine for years. Rebuilding his Russian “Empire” is his prime goal. NATO but a sideshow.
He thought it would be a cakewalk, based on the Chechen and Crimea invasions. Ukraine was much more prepared, having been under additional threat since 2014, and having trained with NATO countries since then. Plus they’re a lot tougher and willing to fight to the end.
Putin initially expected trump could steal the election. Then, there would be no resistance to his invasion by the US under a right wing extremist government here, and no support by us for Ukraine. The threat to other former USSR countries and nearby NATO countries would have been much worse in that case. Biden and the NATO countries have stymied the Russian threat.
Instead, it is the feeding of intelligence from the US and the feeding of modern weapons by NATO countries, as well as the incompetence of the Russian army, that has kept Ukraine going and which will enable their ultimate victory.
If Putin had wanted to rebuild the Soviet Union by taking Ukraine he would – for example – have taken Kyiv. But he didn’t. You never wondered why the Russians didn’t shell Kyiv or bomb it, in preparation to enter the city? The Russians clearly control the skies, they could have bombed it to pieces to soften it up. It is clear that Putin never intended to take Kyiv or Ukraine – that was always a Ukraine/West propaganda narrative – but merely do what he is doing – destroying the Ukraine army that has been shelling Dombass for years and gain the Russian people of Dombass their independence from Ukraine. That job is almost done.
So… NATO has never been a threat despite aiding the 2014 coup and training and arming Ukraine. The US is so good at spreading democracy around the world that I’m sure there will be no unintended consequences, and certainly not more dead Ukrainians than otherwise. Congratulations on your humanitarian impulses. You have a big heart.
Separately, can you describe this “extreme US ight wing government” for us? I used to think advocating war was right wing.
Did you miss the angst of all the ‘celebrities’ and other people pledging to expatriate to Canada in late 2016? I suspect there would have been a comparable amount of boo hooing and kookiness, albeit coming from a different contingent.
The flip side of this is the ‘winning’ side extolling the security and soundness of the US election apparatus when they win – yet no one is amazed at how completely and rapidly things change over a few short years! /s
The election would have been stolen by those criminal Republicans. No correctly thinking person would have taken the untried and risky Trump vaccine. Hunter Biden, who? (I still say the whole Hunter Biden persona is a phony setup for an obvious CIA asset. Otherwise, the Bidens are just not as entertaining! 🙂 )
Lot more noise around Taiwan. Same nuke concerns as with Ukraine, but Chinese nukes.
Ukraine might not have happened as it is now. But hard to say, as it’s apparent Putin misunderestimated Ukraine’s fight-back-ness. Ukraine would have responded the same way, and Trump would have supported Ukraine in the same way as Biden as soon as Germany, et al, showed their commitment. (Trump clearly had a problem with NATO’s free riders.) If Putin hadn’t tried to “liberate” Ukraine, Russia may have found a way to irritate the US, anyway, as Trump wanted the US to be petro-competitive with Russia, and at least half the anti-Trumpers want the US out of the petro biz – Russia’s happiest fantasy.
If we assume 2020 coin-flipped the other way, we might need to assume the Georgia senators flipped, too.
You can bet the farm there would have been another pre-decided impeachment circus. Impeachment seemed to be the last arrow in the quiver, so that circus would have been really, really serious – in the media.
Possible blow-back from Capital riots. The worm had already turned on BLM/Antifa/etc. so super-destructive riots in DC and state capitals over the stolen election would have led to over-reactions. Ugly all around, by any measure.
Another “conservative” judge in the supreme court. Makes dreams of packing that much harder to fulfill.
Having lost, the Democrats might have rethunk Super Tuesday to the good of the nation. In any case, some thought would have been expended on how to best handle coin-flip national elections.
Global econ: Same story in that a large fraction of the world has become 1st world economies in the last decade or two. So, the global system is an old freeway system in a new boom town. Delays and construction no matter the US president.
Doug78
1 year ago
Since he did not win it is impossible to know what would he have differently.
whirlaway
1 year ago
There is some reason to believe that things would have turned out better on the Ukraine front. Maybe there would have been a greater push for a negotiated settlement. But I wouldn’t have bet a lot on that either.
Christoball
1 year ago
There would not be the current war in the Ukraine
thimk
1 year ago
Mexican Border: that’s a biggy ; TITLE 42 about to expire .
MPO45
1 year ago
What Trump *would* be doing right now is enabling further “talibanization” of America. After Roe v Wade, they are already talking about banning contraception. I won’t be surprised to see inter-racial marriage banned next along with gay marriage and Trump would be gleefully enabling all the way, not because he believes in any of it, but because it gives him votes.
Smart money has already bought their second passports and planning accordingly. Next Presidential election is only two years away, you have been warned.
It won’t matter, there will be too many geezers here to design, build, construct or maintain anything hence the push for more babies but it’s too late. Things never work out the way people think they will…. you reap what you sow.
The SCOTUS right wing extremist judges and their political supporters who put them there sure are talking about it. Plus some of the right wing red state politicians.
Watch it – who’s rights are they coming after next? It’s what fascists do.
It’s the fundamentalists, a protestant group, who are driving this, and they’re all in with the right wing of the Catholics whom they’re in agreement with on abortion and meddling in peoples’ private lives to try to install their theocracy. They’ve been working it for 50 years to get here, and finally stole themselves a Supreme Court that has very little in common with the majority of this country that they are now trying to impose their iron rule upon. They are illegitimate. The blowback is going to be immense. I will promise you that.
Those extremists are going put ruin America by allowing some states to restrict abortion outrageously to the levels of rabid right-wing Sweden.
I know what rights are coming next. Maybe the Republicans will set up a department to tell the people what news is true or not true, eliminating false facts through threats against the most-used communications channels.
Exactly right. I along with my family already have second passports. I am hoping that the country will finally dissolve. A new Pacific nation, a new Atlantic nation and a white trash trailer park in the middle. I am sick and tired of the 70 million QAnon assholes. Time to secede and move in without them!
You have no idea of the sstorm this is going to create. There will be many, many cases relitigated on the grounds that the SCOTUS has overstepped. Rightwingers are already pouring over cases that they can elevate to the court. This will cause an even greater rift between the states and the people who live in those states. How do you think this looks to foreign students who want to come here to be educated and stay? We get the world’s absolute best who want to become scientists and engineers. That’s why we’re on top. For everyone of us there are 10 more in the rest of the world. If they stop coming here we will eventually lose our technological edge.
People like you keep imagining tyranny on the right while practicing it on the left. Wake up, Walter Mitty!! You are having another liberal daydream! ONLY BRANDON made people lose their jobs over the JAB. That is pure fact. Now that we have the Ukraine war to focus people on (so that they do not notice the imploding Global Debt Ponzi), we hear NOTHING about covid. Literally shut down the propaganda effort like it was a light switch going off. But not until it damaged a LOT of peoples lives, careers, retirements, hopes and dreams. And everyone that was part of that be damned to Hell for their tyranny toward their fellow man. The jab did NOTHING to prevent the spread and in fact we are seeing a pandemic of the vaxed in places like Israel and China.
Sunriver
1 year ago
The main difference would have been:
Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell would be neutralized.
Trump would have praised Joe Manchin for helping defeat BBB.
As far as the war in the Ukraine, the hope would have been peace could have been saved between Putin and Trump. Nothing wrong with hope.
Finally, the U.S. Mexican border would be somewhat under control. Today, it is a disaster.
Other than that, U.S. Public Debt, Public Pensions, and the Federal Reserves balance sheet ‘The Piggy Bank’ will be the death of us all.
On that note it would be great if Manchin were to win in 2024.
PreCambrian
1 year ago
Actually I think that the difference would be that Putin would have gone into Ukraine unopposed, i.e. with almost no response from the West. Or perhaps Trump would have invited him into Ukraine.
trump held back the arms to Ukraine that Congress approved, not any that he approved or pushed for. Withheld them so he could try to get fake dirt generated on the Bidens before the election. A quid pro quo attempt, totally corrupt. Arms for dirt – announcing a phony investigation.
He got caught, failed, and only supplied the arms when forced to because it was required by law when Congress approved it.
“Withheld them so he could try to get fake dirt generated on the Bidens
before the election. A quid pro quo attempt, totally corrupt. Arms for
dirt – announcing a phony investigation.”
Morrison, who sat in on the call with Zelensky, said that the call was legal. There was no quid pro quo.
It was Hillary that had fake dirt and Special Prosecutor Durham is investigating her.
Obama refused to sell any weapons at all even after Crimea. Obama refused to object to the Nordstream pipeline that Putin owns 4.5% of. Obama refused to push for countries to spend more on military. Obama refused to push Europe off Russian energy. Obama offered Putin more flexibility after the 2012 election. Obama mocked Romney for calling Russia our big geopolitical adversary.
Trump came in and sold Ukraine weapons in all 4 years. Sought to block Putin’s pipeline. Demanded NATO spend more on military. Wanted to push Europe off of Russian energy.
Biden comes in and stops Trump’s selling of weapons to Ukraine, stops pushing NATO spending, stops blocking Putin’s pipeline, stops trying to get Europe off of Russian energy, and says a minor incursion into Ukraine would not be a big deal.
Libs then claim Trump is a Russian asset, because of a mythical pee tape and Steele Dossier that the mainstream media propagandized them with.
TheCaptain
1 year ago
I agree on rising prices were coming (what people call “inflation”). The banking system was about to collapse and they needed a cash injection lest the Global Debt Ponzi (GDP) collapse. Maybe trump would have been less generous on the spending. And probably would not be forgiving student loans right now. But trump wanted low rates so when it comes to that he is just as liberal as the rest of them.
I’m not so sure about the Ukraine thing. He might have been able to make a deal. Let’s face it, the US pushed Russia into this war with nato expansion and IIRC trump was open to taking the US out of nato. Remember, Trump was credited with being directly responsible for the peace deal between Israel and UAE, something that nobody ever thought could possibly happen. So to say out of hand that trump could not have made a difference shows bias.
Also, you seem to have conveniently forgotten biden’s shutdown of the pipeline. Perhaps you don’t think it matters. I would disagree with that sentiment.
Also, you seem to have overlooked biden’s absolute TYRANNY in forcing millions of people to take a vax they did not want lest they lose their jobs, government contracts, their businesses and by short extension their homes, their retirements and perhaps in many cases even their families from the stress.
Brandon has also been an absolute embarrassment globally. Yes, trump annoyed people with the way he talks and with his bluntness, but if you go back and review the stuff he said, like the dems were going to steal the election (2000 mules proves they did), like covid came from a lab in china (which a bunch of doctors signed a letter saying was impossible), etc. There is a long list of “trump was right-isms” even though he was attacked by the left relentlessly for telling the truth.
The main big difference is that biden thinks he owns the people. Trump never behaved like that. Look at brandon’s ministry of truth initiative. It’s shameful. Look at the way brandon is treating J6 victims who were tricked into entering the capitol building complex. The are political prisoners without speedy trials being held in bad conditions. Trump would not do that. Trump even pardoned that POS Blagojevich, someone from the other side.
The border and forced vax mandates are the 2 areas where things would indeed be vastly different. Both were and still are being handled very badly.
On the other hand there is every possibility that Trump would get into a nuclear exchange with Putin since he seems (at least talk wise) willing to use nukes.
This is such nonsense. Blago was a crook like trump who should never have had his sentence commuted. Takes one to pardon one.
Then he pardoned or let off the hook Flynn, Manafort, and Bannon. All of whom were involved in crimes that trump himself was neck deep into. A president should never be allowed to pardon crooks involved in his own crimes, but since no president has ever been involved in such crimes of getting a foreign country to interfere with our elections to this agree, he pushed the envelope again and has yet to be held accountable (it’s coming though).
The charged insurrections were criminal, violent seditionists. They’re getting off easy for the most part. Led by a plot from the top, which you’ll see revealed in its ugly detail in the June hearings. It was a failed coup attempt, and many of the planners will ultimately be jailed.
Where do you get these absurd talking points anyway?
Most of the people charged with Jan 6th so far have not been charged with sedition but rather trespassing. There are some upcoming trials this summer and it will be interesting to see how they unfold and whether anyone is convicted of sedition (my guess is none will be unless it can be connected directly to Trump and I doubt that connection can be made or else it would already be leaked everywhere like the Roe V Wade decision was).
As for violent, there wasn’t any violence at all unless you consider breaking glass to be violent.
There was no violence at all? Are you legally blind? You should really check out HBO’s documentary on Jan06. There was quite a bit of violence and more weapons then you might think. You should listen to some of the police officers on duty that day who were fighting hand to hand and knocking weapons out of rioter’s hands. Check out the cop who was dragged into the crowd and repeatedly tased at the back of his neck. He nearly died. Any denial of violence is simply willful ignorance and revisionist history.
I think TexasTim65 is on to something with his observation that “Most of the people charged with Jan 6th so far have not been charged with sedition but rather trespassing.”. It is 1000% clear that the administration has thrown the book at J6ers. What ever charge they hoped would stick was asserted. And so if their main prosecution was trespassing then all of the Walter Mitty imagination-is-real-life left have to agree that insurrection claims are bombastic and outrageous. Well, I say have to but I really mean have to if they had any morals or shame. But since they do not then they don’t have to do anything but just continue to lie and make up stories. By the same logic, Trump was the most investigated president in the history of the USA. They impeached him not once but twice and failed in their mentally defective efforts both times. He was specifically declared NOT GUILTY of inciting an insurrection. Do you people know what rule of law is? Stuff it sideways into your ears. YOU LOST. TRUMP BEAT YOU. Live with it. It’s going to get far worse for your side soon enough. We are now near the end of several investigations that will show just how corrupt and lawless the left has been for the past decade. Go watch 2000 mules. HA HA! Go look at what Durham is doing HA HA HA!
goldguy
1 year ago
Both sides of the isle are as corrupt as can be. Like two sides of a crime syndicate. I suppose it just shows that it matters not who you vote for anymore.
Separation of international politics from domestic politics is mandatory. The difference is, the president has a almost cart blanche to wreak heavoc on small, defenceless countries, while constrained domestically. This constrain is even the source of mysery for those said coutries as small men try to take out their frustration on them.
As I said at the time, Trump might provoke war with Iran, but Biden’s neocons will provoke Russia, and that has proved 100% correct.
As despicable as it is, Trump maintained good relations with Saudi Arabia and so the Gulf sheikdoms, but there seems to be a shift afot for them towards China.
Nuddernoitall
1 year ago
This won’t fall into the “major” category of change, but if Trump were reelected in 2020, ratings for CNN and MSNBC would have been much higher. If I’m working as a corporate exec at either of those outlets today, I would silently hope Trump wins in 2024. On second thought, maybe not even silently.
FromBrussels
1 year ago
Trump ? ! Just another deep state mfr , a SICK narcist one on top of that, nothing but a fn puppet after all! ….Pardoning poor Assange would ve added 100% to his credibility ….Now history will show he was just another fn a$$hole like most of his fn predecessors !
before the election. A quid pro quo attempt, totally corrupt. Arms for
dirt – announcing a phony investigation.”