In a case headed to the Oregon Supreme Court, a circuit court declared the lockdown “null and void“.
In a late Monday ruling, the Oregon Supreme Court stepped in to put a hold on a dramatic decision by an eastern Oregon judge that declared not only Gov. Kate Brown’s restrictions on church gatherings “null and void” but all her “Stay Home Save Lives’’ coronavirus emergency orders.
Earlier Monday, Circuit Judge Matthew B. Shirtcliff ruled that the governor’s executive orders in response to the global pandemic exceeded a 28-day limit adopted by state lawmakers and were no longer valid in response to a suit filed by 10 churches against the governor.
Shirtcliff granted a preliminary injunction to the churches, finding they had shown “irreparable harm” from the deprivation of the right to freely exercise their religions.
This test case comes on the heels of a similar case in Wisconsin.
Wisconsin Supreme Court Rules Lockdowns Are Illegal
On May 13, I noted Wisconsin Supreme Court Rules Lockdowns Are Illegal
It will be interesting to see how the state supreme court rules.
Church gatherings have been one of the main ways in which the virus has spread.
Mish
RE: “from a risk standpoint there’s no difference between a church gathering, a movie showing , a music concert or an industry conference.”
It’s not the purpose of the gathering that should matter, but there are many factors that could distinguish such gatherings from each other … it is the nature of the accommodations and the proximity of attendees to each other as well as duration of the gathering, nature of the activities, things like that, which should be taken into account.
And unless you have specific and detailed PLANS ahead of time, the blanket approach is rolled out because it makes sense.
Its the failure to come up with such plans quickly and start acting on them in reasonable time, it’s the continuation of the blanket response, for whatever the reasons, beyond what seems reasonable that starts to become suspicious.
But the blanket “open up everything just as it was and let the chips fall where they may” is utter foolishness.
My original post just keeps disappearing and I don’t feel like retyping the whole thing … I’ll just reply a shortened version … to a post by herkie
Tegnell made the worst mistake he could have made; he based his initial strategy on ASSUMPTIONS about a virus he knew nothing about. Rather than erring on the side of CAUTION he threw caution to the wind and decided to wing it. He’s already acknowledged that he completely under-estimated the number of deaths that would occur, resulting in the worst death toll in Sweden since the 1918 flu pandemic.
They paid a higher price up front BUT have no idea whether the price will be lower in the future.
The majority of people in the US support the lockdowns … they had already started initiating them even while Trump was spouting his cheer-leading “it’ll go away in a little while like a miracle” malarkey. And the US society had already been ripped apart over the past several years, nothing new in that regard.
Sweden’s economy has and will take a big hit … it might not be as severe as some other countries … but the population of the country will have to decide whether all the deaths of their loved ones and friends was worth the outcome.
Denmark is actually doing pretty well … ;>) But I agree that there are many suspicious goings on that suggest the usual elite 1% winners and ordinary 99% losers will hold true again.
As with all such things, there are differing statistics. Here’s an article from 3 days ago from Sweden that would beg to differ with your characterizations:
It links to a non-political site (I think!) comparing Sweden with other countries (and it’s interactive so you can add and subtract countries to your heart’s content).
Assuming these are accurate, fact is that Sweden has done well, very well, and there is reason to believe that it wouldn’t tick up much again having already taken the hit. Indeed, their results suggest that since most of our shutdowns happened after the virus has already run through large numbers of the population (unless you trust our primitive testing capabilities with all their false negatives and positives) and therefore would keep spreading amongst family members and colleagues after the shut-downs, shutting-down probably did more harm than good by weakening everyone’s immune system both from lack of exercise, fresh air and exposure to pathogens, but also by imposing high-levels of stress given the private sector population has been deprived of income with no positive future prospects in sight.
In any case, Sweden did just fine on the virus front, but more importantly they did just fine on the financial front too, indeed most of their problems will arise because of all the cowardly and/or politically corrupt responses in neighbouring and trading partner countries.
We must all watch out for confirmation bias with all these facts and figures coming out (self included of course). But it really does seem like most of the stories attacking Sweden are not well written, though they are well argued in order to drive home their point: this pandemic is really scary so be very afraid and stay home!!!
RE: “In any case, Sweden did just fine on the virus front”
Yeah sure … Try telling that foolish politically motivated blather to Anders Tegnell himself …
“We are starting to near 3,000 deceased, a horrifyingly large number,” noted the chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s public health agency, Anders Tegnell, at a press conference on Wednesday [May 6th … deaths now approaching 4,000]
Tegnell, who has been leading the country’s COVID-19 response and previously defended the nation’s decision not to impose a lockdown, this week admitted he was “not convinced” the unconventional anti-lockdown strategy was the best option to take.
“I’m not convinced at all – we are constantly thinking about this,” Tegnell told Aftonbladet, the Swedish newspaper based in the capital Stockholm.
If you want the links for yourself, just Google “Tegnell horrified”
And BTW, for the notion that you think JustTheNews is a non-political site, I suggest you do a little research on its founder John Solomon … I would be leery of assuming that any site is “non-political” just because it claims to be.
Since that story was dated May 19th and yet made no reference to the earlier statements of Tegnell (you can claim that they were “fake news” of course) I think they were putting their own spin on the story.
It’s very difficult for any of us to know what is fact / fiction / spin anymore. If you really believe all the things you write, then find people who believe the same thing, freely mingle as though what you believe is the case … but give up your expectation of burdening a single health-care worker with the risks from your illness if you happen to come down with a bad case. Just stay home, pass it among your own family and like-minded friends, or not, and hope for the best for everyone. Being irresponsible and then expecting health-care workers to risk their lives on your behalf might seem reasonable to the irresponsible … but it’s anything but reasonable.
Only several of the largest states are listed here but the laws in those states pretty much cover all the bases.
Have a look, this basically tells you what state authority there is and what there is not, though I warn you their powers in this kind of emergency are very VERY broad and claiming to be a sovereign citizen is not going to keep you out of jail.
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Churches and CV–why let facts get in the way of outrage…
…..On March 16, 2020, the day that national social distancing guidelines were released (1), the Arkansas Department of Health (ADH) was notified of two cases of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) from a rural county of approximately 25,000 persons; these cases were the first identified in this county. The two cases occurred in a husband and wife; the husband is the pastor at a local church (church A). The couple (the index cases) attended church-related events during March 6–8, and developed nonspecific respiratory symptoms and fever on March 10 (wife) and 11 (husband). Before his symptoms had developed, the husband attended a Bible study group on March 11. Including the index cases, 35 confirmed COVID-19 cases occurred among 92 (38%) persons who attended events held at church A during March 6–11; three patients died. The age-specific attack rates among persons aged ≤18 years, 19–64 years, and ≥65 years were 6.3%, 59.4%, and 50.0%, respectively. During contact tracing, at least 26 additional persons with confirmed COVID-19 cases were identified among community members who reported contact with church A attendees and likely were infected by them; one of the additional persons was hospitalized and subsequently died. This outbreak highlights the potential for widespread transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, both at group gatherings during church events and within the broader community….
Just an observation and musing. Let’s go back to September 2019. All indicators show THATS where the mother of bubbles shows its first clear signs of popping. This was the one that was supposed to make 2008 look like a cake walk. Name one world leader that wanted to sit in that chair during a global economic meltdown on their watch. The virus coincidentally and conveniently appears and allows them to shut everything down (force the collapse on the virus) and now nobody thinks the economy collapsed due to wild and incompetent fiscal policy. Just saying.
It’s time to work together for solutions. Families and neighbors should help each other.
100% of empires fall. The U.S. is no exception. The Romans had their days of Bread and Circuses and we are following the same path. There truly is nothing new under the sun. It is the same play, over and over again.
I spend a fair amount of effort trying to pry my family members off Biden or Trump, and make them understand that neither would piss on you if you were on fire.. Once you strip away the BS the slogans, and the chants, and they can see how stupid it is to worship these clowns, the rage comes, the door slams shut, and I become The Enemy.
Thanks
It should be country first, country second, country third and party/demagogues last.
So true!
As usual there is someone to tell us exactly how poor our politicians are and how if we would simply refuse to vote somehow the quality of political material will magically improve.
BS slogans = Bernie Sanders? Odd because if Trump and Biden were both to die next week BS would probably be the default winner in November, and then America would in fact promptly fail. I do notworship any politician and the only people I know who do worship politicians are all voting for Trump.
If you want the system to get any better you have to get off your ass and off your keyboard and actually do something. But, I find it is a fair assumption that when people post drivel telling them how fucked they are without posting any sort of solution they are usually paid Russian trolls working out of a basement office in the suburbs of Moscow. They never considered that ultimately their nation will pay a very heavy price for it’s lack of honesty and ethics.
Denninger noted this comment today: “Jacobs, a Republican who won the 2018 race for mayor in Tennessee’s third-largest county, Knox, said there is nothing in the U.S. or his state’s Constitution that would allow for many of the restrictions.”
Anything is believed possible in a world where school shootings are supposedly faked by FEMA…
by the way…speaking of churches…have you heard about the infection occurring during choir practice (proximity, time, deeper breathing during singin)… and now this…
…Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle, an independent Baptist church led by Pastor Justin Gazaway in Ringgold, Georgia, restarted in-person services on April 26. Church representative Joan Lewis told The Christian Post on Monday, however, that they decided to suspend “in-person worship services for the foreseeable future” on May 11 after learning several families had contracted the virus.
“Our hearts are heavy as some of our families are dealing with the effects of the COVID-19 virus, and we ask for your prayers for each of them as they follow the prescribed protocol and recuperate at home,” the church said in a formal statement….
…The church did not say how many of their families were affected but noted that only about 25% of congregants had participated in in-person worship services during the time they had reopened.
“Based on the current data that was shared and the low volume of cases in our area at the time, and in an effort to offer our families both options of either attending in-person services or streaming online, we resumed services in the Tabernacle a couple of weeks ago. While approximately a fourth of our congregation chose to attend the in-person services, our other families chose to remain at home and continue enjoying our streaming services,” the church said.
During that time, officials noted that “all modes of social distancing were practiced and followed by the families attending.”
“Seating was marked to only permit sitting within the six foot guidelines, all doors were open to allow access without the touching of doors, and attendees were asked to enter in a social distancing manner and were dismissed in a formal manner as well to ensure that the social distancing measures were adhered by all,” the church said….
During that time, officials noted that “all modes of social distancing were practiced and followed by the families attending.”
Shouldn’t everything be shut down then, including grocery stores and other essential businesses? Shut down fire and police departments, hospitals, etc. Otherwise, people are going to get the virus. Two months of partial shutdown and cases have not gone to ZERO. Partial shutdown is not working.
“Church gatherings have been one of the main ways in which the virus has spread.”
So have been choir practices. There are actually scientific studies showing that singing (as does coughing) increases transmission greatly. Normally one would expect churches to be a somewhat lesser risk than public transit (also a big vector), but the singing is a crucial vector. In minority churches there may also be hugging, hand holding, and other intimate contact, but in many churches people normally keep at least as much distance as crowded subways or busses.
If I acquire the virus because I was involved in singing the praises of my Creator and Redeemer, so be it. I’ll take that tradeoff every time.
I (and you) can sing the praises of my Creator and Redeemer without being in the choir or at the church building. With modern technology we can even sing together virtually while being apart. The church is not the building ….
Infection is not the problem – the more the better on some level, to get through it faster. Overwhelming the health care system was the problem. That’s seemingly dealt with. So now getting out and about – and being infected – is what we are looking for. People wandering around in Hazmat suit mentality believing that their job is to never be exposed, and that we should all stay home until there is a bullet-proof vaccine – something never yet developed for a corona virus – are the victims of a massive brainwashing campaign. Time to come out of the crouch, leave the den and go forward upright as reasonably confident, even brave, human beings again.
ALL the MSM are polluted with fake news. Totally disgusting
I even heard on Fox news that the deaths being reported were “fake news” and that the people had not died (I guess they are living in a hidout with Elvis…)
Man, if this is an “engineered disease” one thing for sure the Chinese could not have done any better than having a crazy country like ‘Merica. Take the US, Mexico, Russia and Brazil and you’ve got a got “chunk” of your enemies incapacitated by their own stupidity.
Not even the Chinese could plan that level of incompetence (sure I get America) but Russia and Brazil both run by dictators…That Americans didn’t react to the way the Chinese shut down their country (they even welded apartment block’s doors) and here we’ve got “fake nurses”, Guys with guns” and “preachers” asking to be infected. No, I’ve got to say that no one could plan for that level of stupidity.
I think China would be the #1 place this virus would thrive. Long days in factories, year round school, and extremely high population density in cities.
Yeah America will suffer, but China will be fighting this in the same disruptive way.
This is a no win.
I’m not sure that you would have liked to have your door welded shut. It is much easier to control these things if the rights and wants of the people are not involved. The communists see the populace more as farm animals to be tended. I’m not sure that the Chinese are the culprits. If you were a population control, NWO traitor that wanted a crisis to use for your own purposes, what better than a virus that attacks those that are the most burden on the heath care system. Probably a coincidence, but US gov’t had intelligence in November, and Fauci blew it off through the end of January. Trump did too, but he tries to avoid problems and his advisors were saying no problem. Then the first month’s attempts to create a test were “using the wrong model” according to Fauci. So another month’s delay was created. And then there is the Media’s “YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE” propaganda campaign. What is that crap? I could get behind a few months of hard quarantine to kill it, if that were a stated goal. The other alternative that I could get behind is to let it burn through and take our lumps. What is happening now , however, is to keep the disease going at a rate that will continue in perpetuity or until a complete economic collapse is created. And then? Does a great worldwide savior swoop in with a better way for us all? Do scapegoaters from the US and China start a war? The middle path we are on is the worst of all possible responses. If there is going to be a vaccine, it better come sooner rather than later.
Stupid people aren’t to be pitied. They are dangerous to everyone around them.
That is so fucked up I am thinking you have to be a Russian paid troll.
Stupid people are almost 100% NOT STUPID, they are mostly brainwashed. The answer is education and deprogramming, as usual you post a quasi valid social ill with all the cognitive depth of a fortune cookie and no solution. That actually was one of the Nazis favorite habits, convince the public first that there is a big problem and foment hate and anger against a poorly defined subgroup and only once the anger is sufficient tell the masses your proposed FINAL SOLUTION to the problem. Stupid people covers a lot of territory, in fact it covers everyone you do not like.
If it is engineered then they will have signed their own death warrant, no nation has been left without death and sickness, expense and damage. Outraged nations would be justified in calling for the total isolation of China, but it would be prudent also to prepare for other types of Chinese aggression to come.
It would be like Pearl Harbor but targeting the entire world. Why would they do this if it is a biological form of MAD? Well it isn’t because MAD guaranteed no nation survived, Covid sees many survivors in each nation, and the Chinese may in the end have the most death but also would have the most survivors. As well as cementing it’s position as the most spied upon totalitarian state in the world. If they were preparing for a global war that they intend to win then softening up your enemy in this way would be a smart move prior to more conventional weapons.
We are systematically being pushed back into the world. If only we hadn’t screwed the middle and lower classes so much, maybe the country could afford a longer time out. Let them eat Hydroxichloroquine and zinc.
How did “we” screw over the middle and lower classes so much?
Could they have screwed themselves?
If they did screw themselves, they had an enormous assist from the Fed. We’ve effectively constructed a system where the top fraction of a percent cannot fail no matter what, since asset prices are inflated at any cost.
Just look how divorced the markets are from the reality at ground level!
Started about 40 years ago when the Monetarists took control behind the dual mandate (which let’s be honest, gave them too much power). Lotta tax and legislative moves combined with the push from defined benefit to defined contribution plans, and yes, the collective “we” have been hoovering up the wealth of a nation to the point that most people need to work despite the health risks.
Baker County Oregon has 1 confirmed case and 0 deaths, this is not NYC and should not be treated the same way.
It also has 16,000 people, it’s tiny population means it probably will have a lower transmission rate, but you would only need a few more cases to surpass the state infection rate as a whole. One case is an infection rate of one in 16,000, but a second case would make it one in 8,000. 4 cases would bring it to 1 in 4,000. And 10 cases in your county would make it one in 1,600. All in all a round Baker’s dozen would give you that same infection rate as the rest of Oregon, and if you are sloppy about distancing and hand washing etc. you can get to that dubious goal in just a few days.
LOL, said the uber capitalist Sausage King of Chicago! Please remember to have a sense of humor and be kind.
“We” have been screwed over by many forces.
Steady prosperity has made us reckless and soft. Most people are not basically prepared for a disaster of any kind. No savings, no assets.
Steady push by advertising has made us impulsive and greedy, leading to over consumption and under saving.
Steady push of cheap credit by government and banks has created excess debt.
Steady push of the left to convince certain minorities and most anyone that would take the bait that they are “victims” has led to learned helplessness. Funny that Chinese, Koreans, East Indians, Jews, etc. that are all minorities do better than average white Americans. (Hint: they bust their asses.) It is more about culture than color. One sure thing about a victim is that a victim does not succeed, otherwise he would not be a victim.
In short, WE that have been screwed over have done it to ourselves. We have let ourselves become reckless and soft because we have listened to those that want to make us their political supporters and debt slaves.
From Bestplaces.net “Baker County, OR is Moderately conservative. In Baker County, OR 20.5% of the people voted Democrat in the last presidential election, 70.8% voted Republican…” (they call that MODERATELY? with a more than 3:1 majority?)
Deep red county in a deep blue state. This will be heard by the Oregon supreme court before the day is out and the governor will prevail.
That does not mean there is not a huge fight in Oregon over gubinatorial declarations of emergency though. The state constitution allows wide latitude to override the legislative and judicial branches in Oregon during declared emergency. The right says the goverenor is abusing that power, I agree, but this is probably not the wisest case they could have picked to test the power when she has also declared such things as a housing emergency and siezed open ended economic powers in order to deal with a housing affordability crisis. In this case most courts would concur with her that Covid is a legitimate emergency.
But when does it end? When she says it does? Then it will never end. The precedent will be set, emergency after emergency will appear, and we now have a dictatorship. What is the means to shut her down? If she suspends the Legislature, or just ignores them, do we have to wait for the State Police to administer a double-tap? Does Trump have to declare her in Rebellion and roll the tanks?
We don’t have to wait for the legislators to arrive at the capitol by horseback and steam engine anymore, there is no reason a Governor needs unlimited power for unlimited time.
That is a lot of assumptions. Never end, Dictatorship, suspends the legislature, Rebellion, roll in the tanks. Wow WTF you ought to worry as much that the virus will keep spreading, mutating and kill you or someone you love eventually.
BTW they will get to vote in the next election and Oregon can replace the governor if that is what they want to do, no tanks needed…..
CA2020, you and people that think like you are the main problem in this country. No, we ought to be worrying more that the country remain free than that I or someone I love is killed by the virus.
Any sane person would prefer both, that the country remains free and everyone continues to live. Of course. But it is more important that the country at large retain its freedoms than that some people die, and only an oven-ready sheep or authoritarian thinks otherwise. The only reason we have this country is that some people were willing to die so that the rest could have a greater measure of true liberty.
“A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” — J.S. Mill
So any infringement on your liberty to do WTF you want is a step too far. I served my country, risked my life fighting in a war, what about you? The country is free, we are in a pandemic and attempting to protect the public health from idiots (people) like you.
I will go further and assume you are a healthy younger male, with little risk of dying from this disease. From all the older and more at risk citizens of these United States of America, F off!
Thank you for your service. Yes, I served my country too, in the Army, in Germany before wall came down.
Why are you assuming I’m a healthy young male? I’m almost 60 years old.
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. John Stuart Mill
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill
Mill made that statement back in a time when liberal and conservative meant very different things. If you had transported him to the USA today he’d think “conservatives” were raving liberals and that liberals should be examined for mental illness.
Also, from your very quote by Mill you should rethink your position.
I do not think you understand the quote. Your freedom is great as long as it is not depriving or impeding others of their freedom.
Wouldn’t transferring a deadly disease to your fellow citizen count as impeding on their freedom, I mean they would be dead.
If you were actually killing someone — which is what you are actually suggesting (“they would be dead”) — by simply assembling together in groups, I believe we have had laws to deal with murder for … quite some time now. But good luck convincing a jury that someone is being murdered by doing that now. Go ahead. The courts are open.
You’re simply not thinking through your own logic. Take a sec and consider what it would mean to criminalize and enforce what you’re talking about. It would mean things like outlawing unprotected sex. It also spreads diseases, diseases that can kill.
Yes, elderly die from flu and pneumonia as well as really severe colds if they are weak enough. And the absurd conclusion is makers and sellers of cigarettes that are the cause of death for 80% of all recorded deaths, because if you ever looked at a cigarette you are considered a smoker. You can have a mattock sticking out of your chest but if you are a smoker the cause of death will be tobacco.
There are so many fun ways we could take this to its absurd conclusion.
Agreed. Indulge me on a couple of ways: How much misery and death could be avoided if we simply banned sugar? It’s not necessary for human diet and the vast majority of humans have lived their lives with little or none of it.
Or how about a 25-mph speed limit. Approx 1.3 million die each year in traffic accidents. Wouldn’t a 25-mph limit save a considerable chunk of that? We have a lot of fascists in places of power. And lots of citizens defending them with specious arguments.
I used to also make the argument that the number three cause of death was accidents, and of those the ones in the home that were nearly all preventable because believe it or not falling off toilets kills thousands of people every year. So, I propose we have mandatory helmet laws for sitting on a toilet, as well as seat belts with three point support.
Well electric self driving cars will be able to comply with a 25 mph limit.
Herkie, I live here in Oregon, I know how ridiculously tilted the balance is. Yeah, maybe she would have played games and let the order expire for an hour before issuing a new one. The point is the law says that the way she’s already done it wasn’t legal.
ajc1970, my own feelings are Oregon has tilted so far left that I can’t live there anymore in spite of all it has going for it. The state has a political choice of EXTREMIST left and right, nothing for a moderate or centrist that thinks the real problem with politics is not so much where it falls on the red/blue scale as there is far too much of it trying to solve eveery problem which just are not in the government’s ability to fix, nor could they with even more government.
I detest the Portland hipster GenX bullshit, but if I have to pick between that and the absolutely Cro-Magnon paternalistic fascist far right there I am going to side with the left. Red state republicans have gone way WAY too far in their demands which exceed any governmental authority to tell people how to live. Closed minded haters that have zero sense of irony when they scream for “freedom,” because they really mean extremely narrowly defined freedom for themselves only and the power to jail any non conformists.
Also, they obviously are just not good at dealing with reality since they are very deeply outnumbered yet refuse to alteer their attitudes in any way. If they are this reluctant to be open to compromise now when they are out of power how willing and accepting of compromise will they be if they ever do get power?
Yeah, they could even be engineered to force compliance. A backdoor into the system could control in case the authorities deem it an emergency, for safety reasons of course.
I was suggesting that by infecting them and getting them sick you would be impeding their freedom.
If someone knows that they have HIV and goes around having unprotected sex, there are laws against that.
Breaking news: there are other diseases besides HIV. Also, someone may not even know they have a disease. You’ve got a good mind. You can think these things through without me. We’re comparing to Covid here. Are you ready to criminalize ALL unprotected sex bc someone might spread to others (who might spread to others, etc) and lead to serious illness or death? Please say “No”, because it’s absurd to believe we should. Same for Covid.
I used HIV as an example. I linked information that indicates multiple diseases and the fact that if someone intentionally spread them they could be criminally liable. You get stuck on the fact that I mentioned HIV and you insinuate that I want to ban all unprotected sex. You aren’t even worth trying to have a conversation with. You literally made all that shit up to suit your argument. I did not say any of that. Learn to read. Learn to click on a link.
Enjoy arguing with yourself, I am sure that you will win in your head. Yay You!
If there are laws covering this on the books let them be administered. The courts are open. I already mentioned this. I am not saying you want to ban all unprotected sex, but pointing out that if we’re going to ban legal assemblies of people on grounds it will spread disease and death, then it is the same for unprotected sex. It should be banned also.
Finally, if intent is required for criminal liability such a law cannot cover someone who doesn’t even know they have the disease. By that logic one should not be prevented from joining groups or other social activities if as far as they know they are free of Covid.
Not interested in simply “winning” an argument. That was Socrates’ complaint against the Sophists. They were arguing merely to win instead of arguing for Truth.
The laws does consider intent for a murder charge, but you can still face manslaughter charges for failure to know when the law says as a reasonable adult you had a duty to know your status. That is why the wording of satutes regarding negligence almost always reads “…knew, or should have known…”
Not to mention how extreme the violation of our privacy would be with useful contact tracing. The very name of it implies government intrusion into your freedom of association. In order for the tracing to be useful it has to be constant and complete. I watched a news report about how Wuhan has carved the city into many zones with checkpoints one must pass through, it monitors everyone via their phone, if GPS says you came within some number of feet of a person that is sick or switches to a positive status everyone that was close to them automatically changes from green to yellow status and can’t pass checkpoints. Your temp is taken at these checkpoints sa well.
They know where you are at all times, who you have been in contact with, how close you came, basically every move. Given a repressive government this is an invaluable tool. Even governments that say they would not abuse this information come on, we all know the temptation will be overwhelming eventually.
Not as absurd as it sounds, remember that 26 states outlawed same sex acts and a few were even actively enforcing that, see 478 U.S. 186 (1986), is a United States Supreme Court decision that upheld, in a 5–4 ruling, the constitutionality of a Georgia sodomy law criminalizing oral and anal sex in private between consenting adults. The SCOTUS effectively overturned all such law with it’s marriage equality ruling but those laws are mostly still on the books even if unenforceable. There were many during the Raygun years that wanted the interment of all gay men. Even the branding of them in an obvious place like the forehead.
The whole point of this conversation really is the slippery slope it presents and the absurd steps that some would take to prevent illness, injury, and death no matter how low the number goes. By the way the same people think it is a great idea for people to get on a 40 pound bicycle and mix with two ton cars on roads not build for that. A very good friend of mine died that way back in 1982. They sincerely believe that this will somehow save the planet. Yet they will not admit that it is an inherently and extremely dangerous way recreational activity.
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. John Stuart Mill
They are all either stupid or being manipulated by the greed of the top 1%. Not only do they still buy into the Randesque theory that your worth as a human being is exactly the same as your net worth, they also gobble up the myth of social mobility that will improve their lot in life, and in doing so elect politicians that advance only the welfare of the 1% making sure the dirty peasants have no social mobility at all.
To me republicanism is the politics of the camposino, and is one of the pillars of repression the wealthy use to supress dissent, right next to religion which also forbids questions or rational thought. It is also why the rich flaunt their conspicuous wealth, you have to give the masses some shiny shit to aspire to.
I said “The state constitution allows wide latitude to override the legislative and judicial branches in Oregon during declared emergency.”
That is not the same thing as a dictatorship or rolling tanks down the streets of Portland. The state supreme court could rule that her emergency declariation has to be refined as it is too vague, or even just overturn it. Unlikely in this case. The federal government also still has supremacy in the event a governor goes wild too. Federal judges in the state can countermand her orders if they are out of line.
But, that is also why I said these right wingers did some judge shopping and brought suit in Baker County knowing he would support their case. Even though it was absolutely certain to get overturned and very quickly given the public health nature of the pandemic. It was stupid of them to bring this case as they did. It will be seen as counterproductive now if they try to get some of her other emergency actions overturnrd like the housing emergency actions.
The law is clear… she had 28 days and then needed to get legislature approval.
If the court acts honestly, they’ll uphold the lower ruling but give the Gov’s orders another 3-7 days, during which she’ll go to the legislature, where her party holds a supermajority, and get the extension through the proper legal mechanism.
It simply would not have mattered, you don’t know Kate Brown, on day 28 she would let the order quietly expire and just sign another one. And she gets away with it because the speaker of the Oregon house, Tina Kotek, a lesbian “progressive” and the governor are VERY close friends. Ms. Kotek’s attitude about republicans is they should all be in jail and she and Brown have called the state police out on GOP senators that ran from Salem and hid in order to deny democrats a quorum.
The only tool the GOP has been able to think up is to flee the state to deny the democrats a quorum in the state senate. That will not work in this case because then the very next person to die and all subsequent deaths are going to get hung around republican necks in an election year. If they were rational adults they would have worked out a deal to modify the dates and levels of opening. Instead they put up antics like this, all or nothing sovereign citizen bullshit that just does not fly in a deep blue state.
The GOP in Oregon knows it will never again hold power there so they just do not care how freaking retarded they appear.
“We are starting to near 3,000 deceased, a horrifyingly large number,” noted the chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s public health agency, Anders Tegnell, at a press conference on Wednesday May 6th.
Tegnell, who has been leading the country’s COVID-19 response and previously defended the nation’s decision not to impose a lockdown, this week admitted he was “not convinced” the unconventional anti-lockdown strategy was the best option to take.
“I’m not convinced at all – we are constantly thinking about this,” Tegnell told Aftonbladet, the Swedish newspaper based in the capital Stockholm.
https : // www . newsweek .com/sweden-coronavirus-deaths-children-lockdown-1502548
https : // www . barrons . com/news/sweden-nears-horrifying-3-000-deaths-from-coronavirus-01588775705
Better start thinking a lot more clearly and quickly Anders … The number of deaths is now approaching an even more horrifying 4,000 two weeks later.
To lock down or not to lock down, that is a horrific question nobody should have to answer, reminds me of some of the deeper moral conundrums on the old Star Trek series. They chose to go one way while the rest of the world went another, there just is no point in second guessing that decision because what is done is done and recriminations will hamper their ability to move forward as needed in everyone’s best interest.
Plus they cannot see the future, it might well in the end prove to have been the right course after all. In one way they paid a higher price up front, but will have a lower price in future because of it, with the benefit that they did not rip their entire society apart in the process, not to mention their economy.
Having picked the path of isolation and distancing and forced mask use as we have, we now will have to continue to enforce those measures until an effective treatment or vaccine is found because if we “open the economy” now then all that torture for the last few months will have been for NOTHING at all. We will go on to have a second wave and all those deaths. Then I ask why the fuck did we not just take the Sweden option in the first place?
Something is rotten in Denmark here, someone benefited by the shut downs and all the bailouts and stimulus and the people only got a trillion and a half of the 8 trillion or so of rescue paid out so far so it was not us.
The Sweden option was not taken because it had no potential to harm Trump’s re-election, and might even help it.
Maybe A, but I think it is the other way around, any path taken had the potential to blow up in his face, in fact it was sort of a no win situation. If Trump went for the Swedish option and there was a high death toll he would get blamed for not locking the nation down. If he went for the closure route and the sacrifice of the economy as we have, he also will catch the ultimate blame. Look back at the last hundred years of one term presidents. In every case there was an economic downturn that seriously affected employment. This will be no different in spite of his 33 or so percent rock hard republican base. The only way Biden does not beat him in November is if Biden dies first.