Please note that retired top Marine Gen. John Allen joins Mattis dissent from Trump.
Allen warns of ‘Beginning of the End’ for Democracy if troops are used against protests.
Allen, the former commander of the NATO International Security Assistance Force and U.S. forces in Afghanistan, said Trump’s halting Rose Garden speech in which he declared himself the “president of law and order,” the use of tear gas on protesters outside the White House and the church photo op that followed Monday was a “stunning” moment and potentially a pivotal one.
“Donald Trump expressed only the barest of condolences at the murder of George Floyd, but he also said nothing about the fundamental and underlying reasons for the unrest: systemic racism and inequality, a historic absence of respect, and a denial of justice,” Allen wrote.
“…Donald Trump isn’t religious, has no need of religion, and doesn’t care about the devout, except insofar as they serve his political needs,” he added. “He failed to project any of the higher emotions or leadership desperately needed in every quarter of this nation during this dire moment.”
“Fully equipped riot police and troops violently, and without provocation, set upon the peaceful demonstrators there, manhandling and beating many of them, employing flash-bangs, riot-control agents, and pepper spray throughout,” he wrote. “These demonstrators had done nothing to warrant such an attack. Media who were watching over the scene craned their cameras to try to understand what had happened to justify this violence, until it became clear for all to see. The riot police had waded into these nonviolent American citizens — who were protesting massive social injustice — with the sole purpose of clearing the area around St. John’s Episcopal Church, on the other side of the park, so the self-proclaimed ‘ally of peaceful protesters,’ Donald Trump, could pose there for a photo-op.”
Right to Peaceful Protest
There is a right to peaceful protest. And this was peaceful protest, at least until Trump forced his way into the scene for a photo op.
Yet people still defend Trump. They claim it was not a peaceful protest.
Facts of the Matter
- It was a peaceful protest
- The Attorney General forcibly had a path cleared for Trump by MPs
- News media were smashed
- Only 2 Republican senators stood up for Trump
- Numerous ranking ex-military officials admit Trump broke up a peaceful protest and that was a constitutionally dangerous thing to do
Facts of the Matter
1. It was a peaceful protest
2. The Attorney General forcibly had path cleared by MPs
3. News media smashed
4. Only 2 R-senators stood up for Trump
5. Numerous ranking ex-military officials admit Trump broke up a peaceful protest https://t.co/B7MeTZxn20 https://t.co/TuiIyr6nHo— Mike “Mish” Shedlock (@MishGEA) June 5, 2020
I am sure someone can dig up some small snip that shows it was not peaceful, most likely after the MPs started smashing people, but the big, oft-repeated complaint was the MPs did not use teargas.
OK it was pepper spray or smoke canisters as if that matters one bit (it doesn’t).
Amazing Lengths
Trump’s supporters twist themselves in knots to avoid admitting he did anything wrong.
TDS Types One and Two
If you are looking for TDS, look no further than the Tweet above.
Such supporters believe Trump can do anything and everything and they will defend Trump no matter what he says or does.
Yes, there are those who will never admit Trump has done anything right.
They have TDS too. I leave it to the reader to decide which form of TDS is worse.
Trump is a Threat to the Constitution
Former Defense Secretary James Mattis denounced President Trump as a Threat to the Constitution.
Yesterday, I chimed in with the same message Trump is a Threat to the Constitution.
“Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us,” Mattis writes. “We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership.
James N. Miller Accuses Trump of Crossing the Line
Defense Science Board Member and former under secretary of defense, James N. Miller, resigned today.
In his resignation letter, Miller said to the current Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper: “Law-abiding protesters just outside the White House were dispersed using tear gas and rubber bullets — not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op. You then accompanied President Trump in walking from the White House to St. John’s Episcopal Church for that photo. “
Miller also accused Esper of violating his oath of office. He also accused Trump and Esper of crossing a line.
“I must now ask: If last night’s blatant violations do not cross the line for you, what will?“ asked Miller.
I Cannot Remain Silent
Mike Mullen , Seventeenth chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says I Cannot Remain Silent.
I remain confident in the professionalism of our men and women in uniform. They will serve with skill and with compassion. They will obey lawful orders.
I am less confident in the soundness of the orders they will be given by this commander in chief, and I am not convinced that the conditions on our streets, as bad as they are, have risen to the level that justifies a heavy reliance on military troops. Certainly, we have not crossed the threshold that would make it appropriate to invoke the provisions of the Insurrection Act.
Praised China’s Crackdown at Tiananmen Square
Trump’s TDS afflicted supporters will never admit Trump was wrong.
Never. Most of them want Trump to act like China and crush any dissent with as much force as it takes.
Please note that Trump Praised China’s Crackdown at Tiananmen Square.
“When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength,” Trump replied. “That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak…as being spit on by the rest of the world.“
Fast-forward to 2020, and Trump has called on US governors to use law enforcement to “dominate” protesters who’ve flooded the streets of cities across America to demonstrate against police brutality.
Something Changed for the Better: Trump’s Bubble Just Shattered
Fortunately, Something Changed for the Better: Trump’s Bubble Just Shattered.
How do I know that?
Easy.
- It is not often four Republican Senators openly blast Trump.
- It is not often that only 2 Republican Senators defend Trump.
- It is not often retired admirals blast a sitting president
- It is not often an ex-Defense Secretary blasts a sitting president
- It is not often a chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says “I Cannot Remain Silent.”
- It is not often someone turns in their resignation to the current Defense Secretary, accusing the Secretary and Trump of “crossing the line”.
Trump’s supporters look the other way.
They fabricate excuses like the protest was not peaceful, besides “It was not teargas“.
What a pathetic disgrace.
Mish
If this doesn’t work, it’s a picture from a tweet by Catherine Herridge: “READ: The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) is the legal foundation for the military justice system and lists offenses. +100 Articles. Article 2 and Article 88 posted here..” In which it clearly states that Retired Officers if they criticize the CiC can be court martialled.
Acc to famous whistleblower Sibel Edmunds, this is preparatory to a harder phase of ongoing coup attempt – getting top brass denunciations indicative of a split within – usually leading to an attempt to actually replace Trump with a caretaker President (probably Obama) under martial law, then have elections in a year or two, by which time a police state will have been well established making future elections a very different affair. I think this is more than fanciful, however she might be right that these public defections and criticisms are indicative of a more critical ‘Defcon’ level politically. They’ve been trying to unseat him since before he took the oath of office and have committed no end of sins since then in so doing, this is just raising the stakes since he has survived the seditious attacks thus far.
And given his track record thus far, I expect him to turn these attacks to his advantage. One of his most intelligent tactics has been to play the buffoon; that way his enemies continually underestimate his ability to strategise, think on his feet, play the long game or react very quickly. In any case, the more out on a limb the attacks get, not only will more American citizens get to see just how far the opposition will go into lawless territory, but also his counterattacks might actually manage to put some of them away for a long time.
people are starting to sound too confident about Trump losing, just like 2016. Trump just has to convince enough apathetic people in Swing States to not bother voting and the Republicans have perfected voter suppression. At least half of these protestors are realistically not going to vote. Voter apathy in Democratic leaning populations is a real thing. Again – everyone with a microphone should be starting and ending with voting as the main thing that matters. Protests come and go. A unified voting block is the most important thing.
I agree with you Mish on all counts. Great article.
In my area the peaceful protest was a BLM protest. They are anti constitution and overall anti American government. Their current concern seems to be another anti, which is anti-law enforcement. They want to take-over the government by invalidating the laws used to govern in order to have justice for the oppressed. They don’t believe that existing laws benefit them. They do believe their 2nd amendment rights are important.
I saw a lot of anti-Trump, no pro-Biden and one Bernie t-shirt. This is a commie group from the leftist wing of the Democrats. The protest included 100-150 people the vast majority of whom were non-black.
I haven’t figured-out what BLM peaceful protesters’ relationship is with rioters in the area. I’ve seen some of the damage, but not the riots. They do sympathize with them. I also don’t know how much they have donated to the politicians who seem to virtue-signal and accommodate the the BLM agenda.
Marxist Revolutionaries, nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe maybe not, but wealth inequality is now so bad that even dedicated capitalists like me are thinking what we have is NOT capitalism, it is a form of fascist crony capitalism at best. Reminds me of the number in Caberet where Joel Grey is walking in the park with his gorilla girlfriend singing about if they could only see you through my eyes; unfortunately more than 90% of us do not have the luxury of seeing the economy through their eyes, and Covid was the force that brought that home with a sharp edge. There will always be those that want law and order at ANY price no matter the reasons for the unrest, and they will label those that cannot survive without change any longer as communists, Marxists, etc. Call it anything you like there is going to be change or there will be death and blood on a scale you simply cannot imagine. And if the wealthy do as I expect they will mobilize the really stupid to fight their war that they will make an all out scortched earth event, after all that is what fascists do. Life is all about net worth and the beauty of your portfolio, those that do not have portfolios are serfs beneath notice, and those with poor credit scores are worse than criminals to them. The only life that matters to the top 10% are those of their class. You are your net worth in their eyes, they quite literally worship Mammon.
Trump is not going to cede power even if loses. You heard it here first. This week was a dry run for what’s to come. He has the support of Pompeo and Barr but not the military. Trump is going full Putin this summer and fall. But it will not work. Come January he will be killed or marched out the White House.
I agree, it WAS theater up till now, but he now knows he is going to lose the election, there simply is not time to gain back in the polls, and it is nowhere near close enough a race to pretend he won with a bit of vote rigging. The vote rigging would have to be so obviously massive nobody – even those who support him – will believe he legitimately won. And his own personal future depends upon his ability to remain immune to prosecution by dint of being a sitting president. He may not live long enough to ever see the inside of a prison, but the legal headaches will bankrupt him and make sure he is imprisoned by the legal process for the rest of his miserable treacherous life.
Did anyone expect these deep state stooges who have earned their living by protecting the crony capitalists’ overseas assets to applaud President Trump and AG Barr in their efforts to bring the crony capitalists players in the FBI, CIA, and State Department down?
LexRex; it would be a lot easier to agree with you if there was such a thing as a “Deep State” but since that is just a made up buzz word for democrats by the fascist right I can and will safely ignore it.
The people are sheep. They are being led by a false narrative.
I wish to hell people would stop confusing anarchy with chaos. Anarchists are people who believe government is evil because of its use of force. They do not believe in riots or looting. They believe in the non aggression principal. To call the rioters and looters anarchists is just plain stupid. We have a truly ignorant population.
That battle was lost years ago. We’ll never get the word “anarchist” back.
Anarchists don’t need no stinkin apologists, Jdog, and where exactly did you come up with your definition of anarchist? Like the Black Hand that murdered Franz Ferdinand and his wife Princess Sophie, and kicked off WWI was not violent? Anarchists hate government because it IS government, not because of any particular policies or methods. When that police station was taken over and set ablaze it was anarchists that did it. The A inside the circle was clearly visible spray painted inside the station. That puts many of us sympathetic with values that insist we need reform in a position of having to accept anarchy and violence, I accept neither and yet I see we are going to be forced to pick between the fascist right or the anarchist left. If that is the case then I do hope the anarchists Rest In Peace when it is all over.
It seems many here are unaware of the promotion process in the military. I will help them out. EVERY promotion to the rank of O-7 or above must be approved by the president and confirmed by the Senate. This allows a lot of clowns and buffoons to become generals. Clinton had Admiral Boorda and Obama General Petraeus e.g.!
General Allen’s resume includes Commander of US and Nato forces in Afghanistan. While his service may have been honorable it was hardly effective and that is likely the reason he retired ( unless it was age, you cannot be promoted past age 62) as he, like Mattis, had Peter principled himself from higher rank.
You are either ignorant of what is going on, or you are complicit in the establishment’s attempt to thwart the anti-establishment opposition, of which Trump is the current figurehead.
The military chain of command runs up to the President, as does the FBI, CIA, etc. We have documented proof that leadership in the intelligence agencies conspired against Trump. Ditto for establishment Republican’s, like Romney and Ohio Gov. DeWine. You, of all people, know the military is political, and is owned by the military contractors. So, why are your acting surprised that the military establishment is bashing Trump??? Instead, you are lending credibility to these military officers. Why? Do you think Comey and Clapper are credible?
Anyone with an once of objectivity and curiosity knows who is pathetic , and disgraceful.
So how long can the “POLICE” keep up this pace? Working day after day, generally double shifts.
When do the police say – I’m done.
The Military is to BACK-UP the police – not be the police.
Trump played this exactly right – the Mayors and Governors NOW OWN THIS MESS. Politically, he’s for law and order. And, everyone else is not…
Blacks are for law and order. This is impacting their communities the most.
“So how long can the “POLICE” keep up this pace? Working day after day, generally double shifts.”
If we’re lucky, all the way up until the pretensions; that there is enough money there to pay the ones who do work for their overtime, while at the same time paying the ones who don’t work 6 figure “pensions” from the age of 28, is no longer sustainable.
Here’s another point of view:
“One important thing also that General Mattis brought up in his very, very flimsy article,” Murdock concluded. “He said, ‘At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so on very rare occasions by state governors’ . . . .
“This is the Insurrection Act of 1807. It’s been used by 12 different presidents from Jefferson all the way to George H.W. Bush. One of those occasions was by the Democrat hero Lyndon Baines Johnson. He actually brought in the military — guess what? — to put down riots in Washington, D.C,” he said.
“So General Mattis really should have picked up a couple of his history books.”
It seems like elites are fomenting a Bolshevik revolution against the working classes and believe they can avoid any serious unintended consequences.
It is dependent on an extreme lack of knowledge of history and even current events among large segments of the population. These are people gathering in massive groups to line dance an supplicate to the secular god of anti-racism as if they are at an evangelical faith healing, despite our country being in the midst of deadly epidemic that they were all terrified just days ago. They are in a constant state of media-driven moral panic and acting as useful idiots for forces that loathe them. I don’t believe this will end well.
How is the sentiment “At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so on very rare occasions by state governors” contrary to anything brought up by the history of the use of the Insurrection Act?
It’s not as if the thought “Oh – it’s Thursday – probably should invoke the Insurrection Act” is being used. It’s been used sporadically and on rare occasions. Just like the quote from Mattis suggested.
All General Mattis needs to do is to tell the story that the crony capitalists want told. Those crony capitalists whose foreign investments Mattis and his buddies worked years to protect, on the taxpayer tab. Those crony capitalists who are terrified of losing their gravy train if Trump and Barr are allowed to expose them and their political allies.
Counter letter from Marine John Dowd
There are always two sides. Mish has taken one (which is fine), but half of what he wrote was factually inaccurate, however believed as true for TDS-ers (Type A = Anti-Trump).
(Seems that links from twitter don’t work when I paste them. Here is the letter in another publication from a search:)
From your link (written by Trump’s former lawyer):
“The phony protesters near Lafayette park were not peaceful and are not real. They are terrorists using idle hate filled students to burn and destroy. “
I find it appalling that any American would advocate a position that calls peaceful protesters “terrorists”.
Is there anything, I wonder, that those types of people wouldn’t do to protect Dear Leader?
The point was that they were not simply ‘peaceful protestors.’ The media keeps repeating that mantra, but repeating doesn’t make it true. Peaceful protestors like that morphed into rioters the night before trying to burn down the Church a block away. As one officer described the hard-core Antifa types mingle in with the peaceful protestors and when they start throwing projectiles – some of which are hard enough to send recipient police into the hospital as happened that day – the officers cannot see who is throwing them. This is a deliberate tactic, just like it’s a deliberate tactice of complicit to insist on describing all involved, including looters and rioters as ‘peaceful protestors.’
It’s a lie.
Democrat leaflet for demonstration Sat night in DC:
Sorry if this is duplicate, but cldn’t find it once posted first time.
Here’s a Democrat leaflet for the peaceful protestors Sat night in DC:
So you defend all the looting, burning, assaulting, and murdering that has gone on under the masquerade of “peaceful protests”? We are witnessing a well orchestrated Marxist revolution. Hopefully, the powers that be will put it down before it gets totally out of control.
Do you really think that is an official publication of the Democratic Party?! Posting it as “a Democrat leaflet” is disingenuous at best. I think there is far more chance that it is a publication of one of the extreme right-wing groups like Boogaloo who have made it clear that they want a race war.
Of course it wouldn’t be official DNC literature.
Just like ANTIFA is not official DNC sub-group, nor BLM etc.
It could be far right stuff put out in a 99% left wing rally, but more likely it’s
a) fake or
b) something slipped into the rally but nobody knows by whom.
In any case, MANY people agree with the sentiments in it and have often chanted similar things in other rallies. “Not Trump! No Wall! No USA at all!”
Denying there is an anarchist bent to the current Dem strategy for taking back power is also a little silly. Maybe it’s just typical political hyperbole, harmless fun as it were.
But I for one don’t think so. BLM and Antifa spout filthy ideas for filthy reasons to effect filthy ends.
But, hey! It’s all okay if we get rid of Trump. Anything would be better, right? Clearly the country will be much better no matter who gets in there.
RE: “Of course it wouldn’t be official DNC literature.”
Then why did you present it with: “Democrat leaflet for demonstration Sat night in DC”
RE: “anything to get rid of Orange Man Bad must be good, right?”
I am not a person who believes the end justifies the means … so absolutely not.
What Trumpeters don’t seem to be able to grasp is that Trump is perfect for the job of achieving the goal of social breakdown … because he does not make social unity a priority … he only and ever makes himself the priority … and that means that he is the perfect template for pushing toward a dog-eat-dog society … because that is how he lives his life and how he encourages his supporters and his enemies to live theirs.
And the same is true of so-called “leadership” at the other pole … totally self-interested. People shouldn’t fool themselves into thinking that Trump is the only sociopathic narcissist in government … for whatever the reasons Trump just can’t seem to cover it up the way some others do … he actually seems to think it’s “becoming”. Perhaps to many Trumpeters it is?
I said of course it wasn’t ‘official.’ Emphasis on that word.
Frankly, I find the rest of what you write here TDS drivel.
You probably find what I write TDS (Type B) drivel too.
I am tired of the divide but accept that’s the way it is.
Both sides have entirely different sets of fact, information, opinion.
Arguing is a waste of time.
So we’ll see how it plays out.
Maybe Minneapolis will improve without police.
Maybe the country is right to allow riots to continue without using the military to snuff out.
Maybe Minneapolis will become a hell hole – already one of worst murder rates in US btw, even with it’s all-left Council.
Maybe the country will stop rioting as the radicals get tired, or maybe it will get worse and will somehow be good for the country.
We’ll see.
I agree with the thrust of many of Mish’s articles of late, but not the reasoning, namely that Trump is in trouble.
But if Trump is forced to leave early, that will break the country.
If he loses through massive fraud, that will break the country.
If the next regime is as hostile to ordinary Americans as the Resistance has been, that will break the country.
I think the desire to break Trump, understandable as it is, is short-sighted.
What would it have been like if they had cooperated with him after the election instead of trying to hound him out of office with false accusations and witch hunts?
We will never know. Because for the first time in US history, a peaceful transfer of power did not take place.
Actually, I think the Republic is already broken and Trump is the last President, most likely. There will have to be a new Republic forged if this one falls, but chances are it will be re-made with the Globalists in charge, in which case National Sovereignty and Common Law rights will rapidly become a distant memory.
Welcome to your Brave New World.
The entire debate at this point just makes me sad.
But again, we’ll see how this plays out. This Presidency is volatile, and this President has barely begun to counter-attack after taking it on the chin for over three years.
Here’s another one:
Doesn’t really matter who writes them. It’s more important who reads and then who agrees with them.
After 3+ years of raw hate directed at Trump, now the entire Heartland America (read Whites in General and White Males in Particular) are the target. This is identity politics at its worst achieving its desire end: social breakdown.
But, hey: anything to get rid of Orange Man Bad must be good, right?
I would really be interested in your perceptions of Trump the person that run counter to mine which can be summed up by “sociopathic narcissist” …
Have you followed him and his actions and his words for the past decade or so, as well as his in-office time? His serial bankruptcies, his dealings with/short-changing of employees, the “Trump University” fraud/scandal, his comments on his views and dealings with women, and on and on … his continual “I’m the richest … I’m the smartest … I’m the greatest … Everything I’ve done is the greatest” and an and on …
What have you seen that suggests he is an honest, honorable person seeking the best for those he is supposed to be serving, at least more than his concern for his own reputation and financial empire?
“Then there are the opposite of the anarchists that also show up at peaceful protests and turn them violent, the fascists and racists, the in your face right wingers that Trump is aligned with, like the ones that showed up in a SUV and shot dead a young black male protester.
I wish Bill Barr would get his head out of Trump’s ass and apply the power of the DoJ to finding and prosecuting these people, and quit vilifying the peaceful protesters.”
Herkie, you make such a great propagandist. Trump sent federal investigators to Minneapolis to ensure justice for George Floyd. It is illegal to murder a black protester and it is illegal to murder a black ex police officer and under Trump, both will be tracked down by law enforcement and prosecuted.
Semper Fi!
I would be more interested in his thoughts about the Federal Reserve number one and then how to address the discrimination issues that are plaguing this great country!
“They fabricate excuses like the protest was not peaceful, besides “It was not teargas”.
What a pathetic disgrace.”
Fabricating excuses. The police officers were not wearing gas masks, so no tear gas was being used. That is a fact, not an excuse.
What was the excuse to riot?
Trump moved to send federal investigators to Minneapolis. The officers involved were arrested and charged with crimes by the Minnesota attorney general.
That would have occurred without riots.
You should give up on the whole ‘It wasn’t tear gas’ thing. No one is going to buy that when they look at any of the evidence from that day.
The fact (and I will state it as fact) that they used pepper balls or pepper spray or smoke and flashbang grenades does not change the fact that they used crowd control materials/chemicals that are largely lumped together with ‘tear gas’. Those semantics also do not excuse the actions of the police or those that ordered them to wade into that crowd
Who invoked the insurrection act in 1992 and what generals spoke up against it?
Based on a quick search, GHW Bush invoked it in Los Angeles in 1992. I hazily remember the riots and I seem to remember that they were not really associated with any major peaceful demonstrations. They also were centered very much in Los Angeles.
I point these two items out because they are differences from the largely peaceful daily demonstrations occurring now across many cities (even across the world). If you are suggesting that the two examples are the same, I would disagree. The 1992 riots were an entity unto themselves (not many innocents involved) and they were centered in one location. The suggested use of the act today (at least from what I can tell) would be broadly across many cities across the country with the very high likelihood of involving peaceful and innocent protesters. Those increases in scope and damage to our civil rights are the reason you are seeing blowback on the suggested use.
“the largely peaceful daily demonstrations.”
I guess if its okay with you that only 10% are not peaceful that no matter how bad the violence is that makes it okay despite damage to businesses (not insured during civil unrest in most cases), lives, civic peace, safety and so forth.
Whatever floats your boat. But it shouldn’t be too hard to understand that other people might not share you view on this and believe that once rioting and looting runs rampant, it’s time to crack down.
Actually, it looks like it is finally calming down, though remains to be seen what happens in DC tonight and tomorrow (Saturday and Sunday) and it’s looking more dicey now famous Generals are tacitly endorsing undermining the CiC. So as long as there is no rioting and looting, there won’t be a problem.
The top military brass’ message was to those in a position of power in the military — and giving them notice that they may be following “illegal orders” with personal implications for the military enforcing these orders.
You don’t get a pass when you enforce an illegal order. You can also bet your last dollar that there will be zero consequence for the one who gave the order — Trump!
Maybe it is time to target Trumps henchmen. There is a website raising campaign funds to defeat Mitch McConnell and turn the senate blue. Might start to change their tune if they think there re-election chances are under threat.
Henchmen. Comey, Stzok, McCabe, Brennan, Clapper.
You are too funny!!
So far wrt , I don’t see need to defend Trump. All I saw was a president walking to a church and back to make a statement of faith.
Teargas does not matter ? So that’s ok also ? Why so many piping the exact same error of narrative though ?
Tiananmen, he stated what happened, was it biased towards ? First hand acounts from there have it that the casualties were mostly average folk and the committed agitators fled.
So, I’m defending Trump ? Or just questioning what a line of criticism is based on ?
You are defending Trump. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck …….
It’s about this: link to law.cornell.edu
“Congress shall make no law… [abridging] the right of the people peaceably to assemble”
That is not the problem because, lockdown aside, people will peaceably assemble, law or no law, right or no right. Creating a positive right to peaceful assembly is the first step in arrogating or claiming authority over public or individual behaviour, even if it were in the form of guaranteeing protection of the ability of that circumstance to take place.
With that lawful position created and recognised, the ability to regulate assembly also comes into existence, and so its arbitration.
On the side of defending that right are restrictions on restrictions able to be placed that interfere with public assembly.
For example:
“The privilege of a citizen of the United States to use the streets and parks for communication of views on national questions may be regulated in the interest of all; it is not absolute, but relative, and must be exercised in subordination to the general comfort and convenience, and in consonance with peace and good order; but it must not, in the guise of regulation, be abridged or denied.” 1939 Hague
On the other hand there is arbitration on the nature of the assembly.
For example:
“Even so, petitions for the repeal of the espionage and sedition laws and against military measures for recruiting resulted, in World War I, in imprisonment. Processions for the presentation of petitions in the United States have not been particularly successful. In 1894 General Coxey of Ohio organized armies of unemployed to march on Washington and present petitions, only to see their leaders arrested for unlawfully walking on the grass of the Capitol. The march of the veterans on Washington in 1932 demanding bonus legislation was defended as an exercise of the right of petition. The Administration, however, regarded it as a threat against the Constitution and called out the army to expel the bonus marchers and burn their camps. Marches and encampments have become more common since, but the results have been mixed.”
The crux of the matter therefore is the word “peaceably”, and how that is construed with regards to an assembly of people. That might range from alleging the assembly is in fact part of a subversive effort aimed at undermining the very freedoms the first ammendment is designed to protect, through to the definition of assembly as a single corp where the violent action of one individual member while in assembly is taken to be lawfully representative of that corp as a whole, or not.
The sequence of events that led to the dispersion of the assembly outside of St. John’s therefore should be placed before law to elaborate a clearer definition of the parameters governing right to assembly, and to purge responsibility for any infraction of that right that has taken place.
?
“All I saw was a president walking to a church and back to make a statement of faith.” — Really. That’s what you saw? Because the context of the whole episode suggests that what you saw was a bunch of B.S. If you aren’t going to analyze any of the actions around that photo op, then you are a lost cause.
And as a side note – the statement wasn’t that tear gas doesn’t matter. It was that the exact crowd control chemical used was not material to the fact that it WAS USED. Again with the lack of context from you. Almost like it’s on purpose.
That’s all I saw. I did not see Trump taking part in or ordering the repression of a crowd of people. You won’t provide me that evidence either, so why try to insinuate otherwise unless you just want to have a go at someone ?
Batton, taser or rifle, big difference, though all involve violence. Go round saying people were tasered when only battons were used and your defence is that it doesn’t matter because they are both violent. Ask the french about teargas canisters and the kind of armaments used nowadays. Maybe you are looking to ride an emotion, or dissuade protests, I don’t know.
More to the point is asking if protesters “needed to be” forcefully dispersed. Maybe we will have an explanation for that one day.
Fwiw these are the munitions said to have been used (plus percussion grenades)
Which fire five incendiary OC pellets per shell. They are fired so pellets drop into an area, or along the floor.
Point being these are amongst the most minimal devices of this kind available, others are much more dangerous (for their weight or later detonation).
I guess you’ll read that as trying to justify their use.
At least Trump is finally getting his wall albeit around the White House. He is nothing more than a bully, a coward and a disgrace to the US Presidency.
The real problem here is that as he has dropped into a really desperate position in the polls and appears to be losing to Biden he is getting more and more authoritarian, pandering ever more to his far right base that includes racists and gun nuts and sovereign citizen types. He did cross the line with the photo op and we are seeing some backlash, but what next? Will he pull a Kent State? Put troops in harms way at a protest that he whips up the temperature of with incendiary remarks? Set up a situation where he can have a photo op over the bodies of dead protesters and claim to be the law and order president? If ever there was a politician that did not care about rights (or even know what they are) this is he.
If he sets the military on us, it’ll be civil war. The right wingers aren’t the only ones with guns.
I agree Zardoz, I am a left liberal (I guess that is now what we call a centrist because of how far left democrats are getting in response to the overt fascism of the GOP) but, I am also a veteran and though it was decades ago I was trained in wet fire with an M16. I am old but not so old I will lay down in front of the Trump crowd with my ass in the air begging to get raped. The days of business as usual are over. It is not even about race (in spite of appearances) which is very frustrating to me, the big dumb animal of the mob mentality does not yet realize it is not about race but about income inequality. It is going to change or the country will burn and fail. And it is no longer in the future, it is happening now.
The same Gen. Allen that endorsed Hillary Clinton for President and spoke at the 2016 Democratic National Convention.
Jack, thank you, you just pointed out that he was right in 2016 and is right now.
This could have been said by anyone who hates Trump…Pelosi, Schumer, etc…Trump is always wrong no matter what he does.
Regarding comments here, Anne Applebaum on NPR “Fresh Air” yesterday had an insightful talk about why Trump may do things, not for reasons you may have thought:
[Not a thing]
1 Teargas used
2 Evidence that it was Trump giving the orders
3 “Systemic racism” — systemic injustice is the story of mankind. Give me a break. This is cultural Marxist lingo.
And I don’t belive in cultural marxism.
And Trump is an ignorant moron, yes.
I am tired of all this winning.
Looks like 8-10 GOP senators are forming a wall against Trump. The drumbeat to removing Trump in the senate may be on. McConnel may have to pick between supporting Trump or losing the senate in addition to the White House in November. The GOP has more than one problem in 2020.
Barr lied through his teeth I mean explained the Lafayette Square event today. He claimed they were moving the blockade one block north so that thrown bricks wouldn’t hit secret service heads. And the plan was to do the move much earlier in the day, before a large crowd was assembled, but there were these logistical complications — so they HAD to make the move at 630pm. Apparently delaying the move until 8am was out of the question. Also, it had nothing at all to do with the President’s stroll, which he wouldn’t characterize as a political move, by the way. Also: bricks!
I remember a time when an anti-war Mish would have been bashing the warmonger Mad Dog Mattis, but now he seems to agree with him because he is criticizing Trump. There also used to be a time when Mish wrote economic articles and not much political stuff, unless it was favorable to libertarian philosophy. I miss the old Mish.
I second that.
Mish was probably annoyed by the hate mail from the Q crowd. I didn’t care about Trump either way in the beginning, but this cultish devotion many of his followers demand is irksome to many of us. If we hold Trump to his 2016 platform he’s an obvious failure.
Besides, if you think about it, Trump would approve of what Mish is doing. He doesn’t really care what people say as long as they’re talking about him, and since he tries to be in the news as much as possible it’s tough to avoid him anyway.
Mish is a straight shooter and calls it as he sees it, even if it means his audience disapproves.
That requires courage, and demands respect.
You call yourself a Libertarian while you worship a wanna be dictator. You aren’t a Libertarian. Stop pretending.
President Trump has stepped in it well and truly. There is no denying that.
One of the key things he got wrong is that federal government should not use the military domestically except in the most dire of circumstances, and not without a request and full support from local officials. He has possibly hung himself with his position on that.
That said, it does seem Mish’s criticism of the President has been one-sided lately. I get that the church photo fiasco was a very bad move. No doubt everybody gets that now. However, I cannot be certain of the details. Did President Trump know the crowd was forcibly cleared just before he got there? (Some say he did not.) Did a few select people in the crowd start attacking the Park Police before they made their move and just before President Trump was due to arrive? (Some say yes.) These details matter and I have not seen evidence that proves these facts either way. Mish seems pretty certain and I wonder, how does he know?
Also, there is the open question of why the riots are so widespread and appear to be well coordinated. Is someone organizing that? The DOJ is investigating. If it turns out that a radical offshoot of the Democratic Party is organizing these then do we really want to be running into their arms? I am just saying that we need to be a little bit careful.
The protests seem chaotic not organized. All of these out of work people, super frustrated (for good reason), just step out of their house and go to where the crowds are.
“While the current protests in America were triggered by a specific event, the horrid killing of George Floyd, the protests represent something deeper: Anger and anxiety and a sense of injustice in general.”
Akin to the “yellow vests” in France, I suppose. On the other hand, someone keeps delivering piles of bricks to locations ahead of when people arrive. Others have posted descriptions saying a demonstration was “peaceful until a group of people who were dressed alike arrived together and started breaking things.”
It’s always a conspiracy with you people. DeepstateSorosGlobalism perpetrated by ancient aliens.
“You people?”
Attack the person rather than discussing the issue. Way to go, Zardoz.
I did not say it was a conspiracy. I repeated information that has been reported in the news.
If you can’t give an example of something Trump has done wrong, you are a cultist.
There’a a simple way to prove you are not a cultist. Give an example of something Trump has done wrong.
You sound like a complete nut case demanding people say something negative about Trump because why? To prove they’re not in a cult… you sound like an old woman.
As if I gave two shits what you think Harbour.
If you can’t think of anything he did wrong yesterday, you are a cultist. Apart from a constant stream of lies, how about breaking up a constitutionally protected protest so he could have his photo-op holding the Bible upside down?
Let’s not forget that Mattis and Trump fell out because Trump wanted to withdraw troops from Syria. Remember those few days in 2019 when liberals suddenly cared about the Kurds more than anything in the world, and were demanding that our troops stay in Syria forever to steal sovereign Syrian land to create a Kurdish ethno-state which no other nation in the region supports? Good times but they dropped those concerns as fast as they’ve now dropped their Covid cares in favor of the next TDS mass hysteria event.
Mattis has no moral high ground here. He doesn’t want the military to protect innocent civilians from violent rioters at home because he prefers to have them killing innocent civilians overseas in endless resource wars. I do expect a parade of neocons to step forward and complain about Trump misusing our armed forces, but it is hot air since these same craven actors have been abusing our military for over 20 years.
While it’s true that Mattis and the rest of the MIC have no moral high ground, Trump doesn’t either. He never withdrew from Syria, he just shifted people around to “protect” oil fields. He also constantly antagonized Assad, along with Iran and Venezuela. Sanctioning half the world wasn’t really an act of goodwill either.
We’ve fallen far when Putin can successfully troll us like he did today, saying that the US has to learn to respect the rights of protestors. We deserve those jabs and and it highlights how much we’ve deteriorated after mocking Russia, China, and many others while overtly/covertly supporting their demonstrators.
Just because the neocons and others are bad actors doesn’t make Trump good, and this binary thinking is the source of many of our problems.
The truth is Trump got played like a fiddle by Putin, Xi, rocketman and every other autocrat on the planet. Trump wants to be like them so he pretends to act like them. It is a disease. Given the choice between Trump who has been played like a fiddle and ceded control and the establishment that actually stands up for American values I pick the latter. Neither is perfect but only one is sane on foreign policy.
I thought Trump was a Putin puppet, according to liberals and their deranged fact-free 3 year Russiagate conspiracy.
Of Obama’s obscenely aggressive clampdown on peaceful Occupy Wall Street protestors, Putin said:
“At a certain point we saw the police cracking down on the Occupy Wall Street activists. I won’t call the actions of police appropriate or inappropriate,” he said. “If there are people who act outside the law, then the state must use any legal means to impose law in the interests of majority. That’s the way it’s done in the U.S., and that’s the way it’s done in Russia.”
I wonder Putin would go out of his way to criticize his puppet Trump for wanting to stop violent riots, after previously defending Obama for his autocratic suppression of mostly peaceful protestors. Odd.
Do you want me to defend the blue team? They’re as deceitful and slimy as the red team. Of course they lied about Russiagate, they couldn’t admit that Hillary was unlikable and had to invent a story about why she lost to make themselves feel better.
Again, the world is not binary no matter how much the US media portrays it that way. It’s possible for both teams to be terrible, just like it’s possible for both Trump and his MIC detractors to be operating in bad faith.
It’s sad how easy it is to control Americans. Just give them two repugnant options (who generally serve the same masters) and watch them come to blows over which one is perceived to be the slightly lesser evil.
Love it. With admirals, officers up the wahzoo in my family and my own service, I can only applaud your sentiments.
This is instructive so I hope people are paying attention. In recent years I’ve read a ton of posts around the web where self-proclaimed “Constitutional conservatives” welcomed the idea of a civil war because they believed the US military and police would be on their side. This parade of senior military officials should disabuse them of that notion, although the many misdeeds of the MIC should have tipped them off much sooner.
In the event of real unrest, the military would be playing their own game, as would most of the police around the country. Uppity civilians would be seen as enemies, just like they are in our various Forever Wars around the world. I hope people bear that in mind if they ever want to start shooting!
100% true.
As soon as the shooting started, the military would splinter into different groups with different aims following different leaders.
This is why the founders envisioned a “military” that was primarily state-run militias only called into service when necessary to defend the country.
You can see this in action by studying how the armies were built for the Civil War. They were militias representing their states under general leadership of federal officers. But at the end of it all, states were in control of their own militias.
A standing national army/military has exactly the same internal issues as the rest of the country and they will splinter along many of the same lines if the rest of the country fractures.
I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccesful rebellions indeed generally establish the incroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is a medecine necessary for the sound health of government.” – Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Paris, January 30, 1787
Yeah, but that was only intended for a White audience, amirite?
Just as the insight that the Earth was spherical, was only intended for a Greek audience…..
I understand your sentiment, but while science is colorblind, our Founders were not.
Scientists , as opposed to science, are no more nor less “colorblind” than anyone else. Founders included. None of which have any bearing on the validity of their claims.
Besides, the extension of what The Founders wrote/spoke/reasoned, from “White Landowners” to “everyone” is entirely straight forward. Nothing gets lost in translation. None of their arguments pertaining to the freedoms enjoyed by those they understood to the “The People”, are in any way dependent on the existence of a slave class. The first amendment does not recognize free speech, only in those cases where you have slaves whom that right does not apply to.
In general, the whole “Anyone who lived prior to MLK was wrong about everything because, ehhh, like, being part of the anti-“racism” “community” is, like, the new Woodstock and, like, stuff” is rather childish and silly.
Look Stuki, I think we agree here and we’re just talking past each other.
My point that the Founders existed within a certain context really has no bearing on the decisions of future generations to move past said context.
I apologize for getting bogged down in minutiae to make a snarky joke and I’ll be mindful of that in the future.
You quote military leaders condemning Trump ( much of what he says and does is dumb ) for violating our constitution while they been busy violating allot more than that all over the world for decades. Not exactly credible sources on freedom.
Vietnam, Iraq, Iraq, Syria, just to name the obvious ones but the list goes on and on.
“Tu quoque” is not an example of something Trump has done wrong.
I posted a reply to you on another thread solving the notion that you think I’m a Dem or Biden supporter.
Prove you’re not in the cult.
You sound like a loon
You sound like you’re in a cult.
I bashed Vietnam – If drafted I would have refised to go
I was vehemently opposed to the second war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria
It is not about you Mish, it is about the potential for hypocrisy of those quoted.
I was a naval officer stationed in Long Beach, CA in 1968 and was sent to riot control school with other military personel to provide military support for law enforcement due to the unrest caused by two assassinations of note. I hate that we have gotten to the point where the military might have to be used, but if anarchists are starting to rule the streets and law enforcement can’t handle it, what do you suggest we do?
I agree with you 100%. You have to have the military or National Guard in force to stop the violence. I hardly saw any Democrat’s trying to stop the rioting and in fact seemed to be encouraging and some were! I am not a big Trump supporter, but I’m less a supporter of the Left that wants Antifa, looters and rioters to be the new police force.
Narrator: he’s a trump supporter.
“anarchists are starting to rule the streets and law enforcement can’t handle it, what do you suggest we do?”
Embrace anarchy. It works one heck of a lot better than any Fedarchy ever will.
America was destroyed specifically by ambulance chasers and banksters lobbying self serving arbitrary laws into existence. It had nothing to do with “anarchists.”
In an absolutely ideal world, it may well be the case that “anarachists in the street” is a major problem. But as long as there is a Fed, out of control FIRE rackets and a completely useless Free Shit Army of rank idiots “owning” and controlling all of America’s “assets” after having been handed it by The Fed in exchange for nothing; nothing “anarchsists in the street” can possibly do, at least until Putin kits them out with nukes, come even close to rising above the noise floor wrt what is destroying the country.
Stuki,
I agree with you. In a perfect world, anarchy is by far the best choice for government.
Unfortunately, it requires a relatively united and somewhat homogeneous society – with people willing to stand up and defend themselves when necessary.
That is not the US at this point.
If we were to attempt to transition the entire US to anarchy now, everyone would quickly learn what Hobbes meant by “nasty, brutish, and short.”
I’ve been to many places in the world where there was real anarchy and the unfortunate reality is that there is always an “authority” and it typically ends up being the person with the weapons, or in control of the weapons.
I don’t know what the solution is – but it isn’t the direction we are going. I’m sure of that much.
Also – I wish people would stop calling the violent protesters “anarchists” or the conditions in riot situations as “anarchy”. Neither is true.
Anarchy is a political system based on mutual non-aggression. No real anarchist would indiscriminately destroy property and/or randomly assault people.
And the condition that exists in a riot situation is “chaos” – there is still a government/authority – they are simply not in control.
Anarchy does not equal chaos and chaos does not equal anarchy.
The transition to Anarchy, from a contemporary slave state, will never be peaceful. Once you have arrived at Anarchy, things will very much be stable, with just a fairly steady level of small scale, rather non directed, background violence. Tribal Afghanistan is about as applicable a model as anywhere.
But the ones who are currently privileged to steal from, and enslave, others with reckless abandon, isn’t suddenly going to just relinquish those privileges without a fight. And since unlimited privilege to steal, as well as to write and interpret arbitrary “laws,” inevitably results in your ability to buy bigger guns than those you steal from, which inevitably results in confidence that such asymmetric gun access can yet again “put the niggas down”, I doubt there will ever be a transition which does not end up requiring superior number of bodies, which is all the slaves have, thrown against superior armaments. Which cannot help but looking a bit rough for a period.
Thing is, this will happen anyway. People who steal, or are having things stolen for them, as their only source of sustenance, privilege and socioeconomic standing, as is the case with current US “elites”; by very virtue of not being able to do anything more productive than being theft recipients; will never, out of the blue, just stop what they are doing. And voluntarily go back to either starving or having to work for a living.
Instead, they will continue to come up with ever more far fetched reasons for why it is OK for them to steal, rob and enslave ever more; then back that theft up with the superior armament access they have. So we’ll get ever more Fed bailouts, restrictions preventing the slaves from building houses and other hings they need, ever more taxes skewed towards robbing people who work, for the benefit of people who don’t but have been granted the arbitrary privilege to live off of others’ de facto enforced labor etc. This century+ long process won’t just magically turn into reverse. Not until the persistent theft have rendered the numerical advantage the slaves enjoy, as well as the desperation and nothing-left-to-lose’ness of the situation they find themselves in, great enough; that even the leeching classes’ superior access to armaments can no longer fully protect them.
And since nothing is certain, the only way for the slaves to discover when things have finally reached that point, is to keep trying. Have another bout of riots, and see how far they can get this time. Then, if these are put down as well, wait until the theft rackets have rendered even more people too destitute to have anything to lose. Then, try again. Keep pounding away at the prison walls, and eventually they will crack. If by no other mechanism, then by ever more of the leeching classes’ stolen resources having to be devoted to keeping the niggas down in order to prop up the leeching classes’ unearned privilege, ending up weakening them to the point that they get sacked from the outside.
So it’s a false dichotomy to believe there exists a “solution”; which is simultaneously “peaceful” and which preserves the status quo privilege granting slave state. As long the state exists to ensure that a privileged class of leeches gets to live off of doing nothing, by underwriting the idiotic illusion that their decaying-in-the-wind-and-sun-and-rain “homes” “go up,” and ditto their “portfolios”; that state has no choice but to extract the resources required to underpin that illusion, from people who do productive work hence create the value which can then be redistributed to allow the free-shit-army to keep living off their “portfolio”.
And the state will increasingly have to extract those resources by threat, and application, of force. As eventually even the most indoctrinated of the indoctrinated, will realize he has been duped. And that, no, the guy who “made money from his home,” didn’t really happen to be “smart” and have a workforce of unusually productive roaches in his walls which kept making his house more valuable. While he sat there on the couch cheering for the government to keep others maximally homeless, by banning them from building nicer, cheaper, better homes next door the way things work in somewhat freer societies and industries.
Sounds like something straight of the mouth of Karl Marx and his evil henchmen Stalin, Lenin, and Trotsky. They were never interested in transitioning power to the people. The Bolshevik Revolution was simply their opportunity to seize the reigns of power and plunder the nation’s wealth for their use, the use of their relatives and associates. The poor people suffered for 70 years under the Marxist boot before getting some relief. Either you plan on being one of the insiders or you are what Stalin recognized as a useful idiot.
Sounds like Karl Marx regurgitated. Listening to rubbish like this brought the Russian people 70 years of sorrow under the Marxist boot.
Falling for the idiocy that government, its lackeys, institutions and those it arbitrarily bestows unearned privileges on, is there to “help” them, is what brought Russian people 70 years of sorrow. They were and are no different from similarly naive and indoctrinated Americans in that regard.
What do I suggest we do? Wait for the governor of the state to call out the national guard. Not have the President do it with non-guard troops. I suspect that was what happened in 1969, the governor called out the national guard.
And if the governor refuses and continues to allow the looters and rioters run roughshod over the rights guaranteed to the rest of the citizens?
Are you truly saying that the rest of us have no responsibility to send help in that case?
Do you think it is possible, that finally, enough people have called out that the Emporer is not wearing clothes and the truth is coming out?
It will be too soon to say that until November 4th. Keep working at it.
The truth has been out for over 3 years, but the cult will never accept it. They are just as dangerous as their idol, and will not be swayed by any non-lethal means.
Both column’s are so damn corrupt….however there is something to be said about peaceful stability
It won’t matter one whit, until enough people have figured out that no , not just the , emperor is not wearing clothes.
The Caudillostans south of the US border have been playing the “the current emperor is not wearing clothes” game continuously since Peron discovered modern statecraft.
Endlessly replacing the last guy who was supposed to be different, with the next guy who will really be different. Until he isn’t neither, but by then the next guy will be……. The next guy will drain the swamp, will give us hope and change and Bolivarian revolutions, will make Evita great again….. Forever stuck in an endless loop, flaunting their devotion to Einstein’s insanity definition.