What constitutes “Military Spending”?
A Bridge Too Far
Eurointelligence comments on military spending in A Bridge Too Far.
When trying to raise defense spending, governments that don’t really want to do it but feel pressured to by the US have one seemingly enticing option: creative accounting.
The problem, however, is that the US is watching, and has its own opinions about what it deems frivolous military spending. Italy’s government recently went on the record to deny that it would count money spent building a bridge over the strait of Messina, between Sicily and Calabria, towards its new Nato spending target.
Perhaps not coincidentally, the clarification of Italy’s position came after Matthew Whitaker, the US’s ambassador to Nato, publicly poured cold water on the idea. At a conference in Slovenia on Tuesday, Whitaker made clear that the US would take a dim view of countries adopting what he described as an expanded view of defense spending. He then specifically singled out, in his own words, bridges with no military value.
The whole idea of counting the bridge over the strait of Messina as defence spending was always an especially egregious example of this. It was like something that an Italian satirical TV show might come up with. The bridge itself has already been a punchline in Italian politics for decades.
One big sticking point we can see coming up, for example, is military pensions. In some countries, they already count for a large proportion of overall military spending. Almost a fifth of all Italian defence spending, for example, is on soldiers’ pensions. In France, it is slightly lower, but still high comparatively at 16%. In 2025, France will spend more on pensions than it will on maintaining its nuclear strike force.
As these costs increase, both in absolute terms and relative to military budgets, the European countries might argue for them counting as extra military spending. We can see the US taking a different view, insisting that only extra tanks, planes, missiles, fortifications, and actually serving soldiers count.
Regardless of the fairness too, what the US says will go. The problem is that we are not doing this extra spending to try and make ourselves truly independent of the US. We are doing it to try and prolong a transatlantic relationship that is, if not truly dead, nothing like what it previously was. We expect that, decades ahead, this will be viewed as one of Europe’s gravest strategic errors.
Little Support and No Fiscal Room
There is little support in the EU for more military spending (excluding political lip service by politicians to appease Trump).
More importantly, there is no fiscal room anywhere except perhaps Germany. France is a primary example.
Compliance Rules
- Deficit rule: a country is compliant if (i) the budget balance of general government is equal or larger than -3% of GDP or, (ii) in case the -3% of GDP threshold is breached, the deviation remains small (max 0.5% of GDP) and limited to one year.
- Debt rule: a country is compliant if the general government debt-to-GDP ratio is below 60% of GDP or if the excess above 60% of GDP has been declining by 1/20 on average over the past three years.
France’s general government gross debt is projected to reach approximately 116.0% of its GDP in 2025.
France and Noncompliance
- France Debt-to-GDP: 113% vs target 60%
- France Budget Deficit: 5.8% vs target 3%
- Italy Debt-to-GDP: 135.3% vs target 60%
- Italy Budget Deficit: 3.4% vs target 3%
Trump’s Mandate
As of the NATO Summit in June 2025, Donald Trump’s mandate was for NATO allies to increase their annual defense spending to 5% of their GDP by 2035. While the European Union (EU) is not a military alliance, the majority of EU members are also NATO members, and the demand is directed at them.
Breakdown of the 5% mandate
The new target, agreed upon during the summit in The Hague, expands the previous 2% guideline by including a broader range of security-related expenses:
- 3.5% of GDP is to be spent on core military requirements, such as weapons and troops.
- 1.5% of GDP is allocated for “defense- and security-related” investments. This category includes funding for cybersecurity, critical infrastructure, logistics, and supply chain readiness.
This section was from AI.
Military Spending Select Countries
French Government on Verge of Collapse Over Debt Crisis
On August 27, 2025, I commented French Government on Verge of Collapse Over Debt Crisis, What’s Next?
What’s it All About?
The crisis revolves around Eurozone fiscal rules. The EU never enforced its Growth and Stability Pact or Maastricht Treaty rules. But now it wants to.
France is one of the worst offenders.
Q: How is France or Italy going to meet even 3.0 percent military spending given budget constraints?
A: Neither will. And Italy will struggle to hit 2.0 percent even if it can count money spent on bridges that have nothing to do with military.
What’s Trump going to do, make another TACO (Trump always chickens out) threat to leave NATO? Up tariffs increasing costs on US consumers while increasing EU deficits? Tell Russia it can have all of Ukraine?
Expect TACO threats. Realistically, Trump is in no position to demand anything.
Whatever Trump says and does is sure to cause more political and fiscal troubles for the EU, especially France and Italy.
Is an EU breakup Trump’s intent?
Debt is not serviced from turn-over but from earnings.
If you have a store, you don’t service your $50,000 debt from your $1,000,000 turn-over, but from your $30,000 earnings.
GDP is turn over, and Debt/GDP is the wrong metric.
No matter what all the economists keep saying (All those guys that thought Russia would be a push-over with its puny GDP, to be completely erased with those sanctions from hell, out of missiles in a week, only to be produced by cannibalizing washing machines).
Debt is serviced from revenue.
The debt/ratio for the US federal government is 740% (2024).
No European country even comes close, including Greece.
Where I live in Europe, it’s a mere 100%.
The ratio of GDP to Total Government Debt, compares an Estimate of a nation’s ability to generate tax revenue, and therefore to Pay (Service) Debt.
The need to estimate the ability to pay future taxes is very subjective but very critical. GDP is the best and only commonly used number to estimate that amount.
At one time a GDP to Debt ratio of more than 100% was considered to be the Point of No Return. I still think it is. But that only applies if GDP isn’t supported by “printing money”. But of course, printing money pumps up GDP, and Debt and therefor only delays and deepens the unstoppable slide into Devaluation and Oblivion.
O come on. They only agreed to help Trump with his PR “wins”.
Of course they will never actually meet any of these putative “goals”.
It’s like emergency funds for regions with natural disasters. Government renege on more than 90% of what they publicly promise.
Well, how about creative accounting in the US?
The nuclear strike force isn’t even part of the DOD budget, but is “Energy Dept”.
Veterans, also not part of the Defense budget, they have the VA.
US Defense spending is actually much higher than the Defense budget.
Can someone explain why any NATO country, including the US, should spend a penny on “defense”. Who has hundreds of thousands of troops on the border waiting to invade? What would be the point? This isn’t medieval times anymore where the king gets richer by controlling more land.
Isn’t this all just a way for Trump to funnel more taxpayer money (this time from Europe) into the hands of MIC shareholders?
Bingo. Finally someone who has considered the basics.
Yep, which is exactly WHY they are so upset that the EU wants to spend that ‘extra’ money on it’s own defense industry as well as infrastructure … neither one benefits persons in the US … bet is those infrastructure contract were to go to US firms there wouldn’t be much of an issue with ‘creative accounting’
There are hundreds of thousands of invaders waiting to invade from Africa or whatever third world hole, but the EU defense has been an abysmal failure there. Probably, because pea brains obsession with Russia.
Jon. I don’t disagree. But this was the Obama Administrsation that started this, with Biden the VP then as president continuing it and escalating it.
A lot of trump supporters want us out of Ukraine and out of NATO. The problem is our liberal media and your liberal media is feeding you the incorrect information.
Meanwhile all you are doing is blaming Trump for everything
I’m telling you the only people in America and it seems like now in the EU that want this war to continue are your politicians, not the people, and our Democratic party in America, with the exception of our resident asshole republican Lindsey Graham.
I know what your thinking, why is Trump asking the EU to spend more on defense?
Remember back in his first term he called out all of NATO then too?
Because after you do that he wants to pull America out of NATO
He got lambasted by our liberal media for threatening that 9 years ago.
Disband NATO and the EU can do whatever the hell it wants and rightfully so.
Before the elections of Trump I, mainstream media were going crazy that “Trump will abolish NATO, it’s the end of the world!!!”.
France and other Noncompliance Nations
France Debt-to-GDP: 113%Italy Debt-to-GDP: 135.3%US Debt-to-GDP: 123.4% * Added my me.When you’ve read the section above that says France is in big trouble
come back and click here:
*https://www.usdebtclock.org/
“French Government on Verge of Collapse Over Debt Crisis”
The last Fourth Turning War occurred after the debt collapse in the early 1930’s. We are nearing the 100th anniversary of that debt collapse with an astronomical global debt bubble. Conditions are setting up for the next FTW.
“Little Support and No Fiscal Room”
The FTW is coming, whether there is little support or fiscal room. In 1938, the effort had been to avoid war, as the WW1 allies were not prepared.
There should be debt forgiveness by countries the US owes but protects. This is one thing Trump isnt smart enough to try to negotiate. He is in the pocket of Putin still.
The jobs report was a total disaster.
Trump policies have been a disaster in his second term so far.
Who does the US protect?
They have 7 commands that span the entire globe.
The US does not protect anybody … it is trying to take over the whole world.
It is official policy to be at war with any state that in any way diminishes US full-spectrum dominance over the whole world.
Personally, I don’t give a rat’s as about Ukraine. My interests are: 1. not paying for the war, pensions or expenses of Zelinski’s government. 2. not seeing any American boys involved in the mess. Let’s get the US out of NATO and let Europe worry about Ukraine!
You’re actually paying for civil servants, teachers, and universal health coverage in Ukraine.
It was an American idea to exploit Ukraine against Russia. Policy papers about redeveloping Sebastopol appeared in the public domain in 2013. The CIA has been working on this continually since the end of WW2. Who do you think fomented and financed the violent and unconstitutional coup in Kiev in 2014?
Can you imagine?
We are paying for health coverage for ukraine and me and millions of other self employed are paying for their own health insurance in NY.
EU has been playing pax dumbfuckistan like a stradivarius since 1945.
Time to pay for that Ukraine defense they are so obsessed with.
The origins of the EU were all about reducing the possibility of war between its members – and (despite all its faults) has done a perfect job of that. As a result Europeans cannot see the need to continue maintaining a huge defence complex.
The US on the other hand, despite having absolutely no adjacent threats kept its going and couldn’t help creating all sorts of disasters around the world. If it hadn’t done this then surely Russia wouldn’t have had to try and keep up.
Trump isn’t mentally equipped to understand what the break of the EU would mean but he is (as always) acting exactly as Russia would like him to.
It is interesting seeing all the mockery from Americans about the EU. Where do we start in real comparisons – debt to GDP (US 120%, EU 82%), life expectancy (US 78, EU 82), democratic index (below almost all EU countries), happiness index, infant mortality (US 0.5%, EU 0.3%), murder rate (US is >10x EU), impartiality of judiciary, socialist nature of main family expense (Fannie and Freddie), socialist nature of farm subsidies. America – the world is laughing at you so much now.
Reducing war between its members? The people here think Russia is going to invade the EU.Personally I don’t. Do you? Apparently not .
And apparently you think if they do the creation of the EU is enough to defend against that. I have no idea.
Great. Then lets disband NATO
My guess is the loudest complainers about disbanding NATO are going to be American Liberals and European Politicians because they are shouting the loudest about funding this war. Somehow I doubt their grand kids will be sent over there though.
Not quite sure what you are saying. However, I think NATO is still necessary but a spending level of 2% of GDP seems about right given the level of threat. A problem is that the EU countries are not coordinated in their procurement of capability so that 2% is very inefficiently spent. Definitely something that needs fixing.
Ukraine is a different matter. Should Europe have considered it necessary to defend a non-EU/NATO country? The opportunity to stop things was lost when we did next to nothing when Crimea was taken. Very difficult to see a solution right now – the European “coalition of the willing” is a bit of an embarrassment.
I think there is only one person in the world who can stop this war. Putin can’t back down, Zelensky can’t give his country away. Only Trump has any leverage in this but he has decided not to use it (for who know what personal reason). By his inaction, I really think that guy has blood on his hands in both Ukraine and Gaza.
“The opportunity to stop things was lost when we did next to nothing when Crimea was taken.”
By which you mean when the US organized the overthrow of the Ukrainian government Obama didn’t like and the Russians living in Crimea (which had been Russian since Peter the Great) decided to remain in Russia?
I think you’ll find that Peter the Great never controlled Crimea – it was under the Ottoman’s. But hey, the MAGA narrative is that Putin is correct so let’s go with your version of history.
I think you made two overly-strong assertions. Back in 1991 the people of Crimea also voted for independence from the USSR. By 54% I think it was. As for “the US organized the overthrow of the Ukrainian government“, it is certainly true that the U.S. participated in helping the new government, instead of insisting that Yanukovich be put back into power. As for Yanukovich fleeing, much of that involved other people and not much organized by the USA. (But you can’t convince some people…)
The hand of V. Putin to control Ukraine and its government has been heavier and more evident these past two decades than what the EU or the USA has done.
But that sounds like you want it both ways. With all due respect, granted not a large sample but 2 of 2 europeans here say the European people don’t care about funding this war but that America & now Trump should be defending Ukraine and then Europe should not help out.
Wow. I’m convinced. Defund NATO
With 1 exception, Silicon guy below is right. The Obama Admin & who knows maybe helped funded by another Soros NGO overthrew the Ukrainian Govt so America is the one that once again started another war so I guess we owe it to the Ukrainian people to clean it up now.
But of course in America the media tells you and you Europeans as well that Democrats do everything right and those MAGA Trumpers and right wing Republicans do everything wrong.
Next you will be asking for NATO to come into the UK & France when your islamic migrants have taken over.
Are we supposed to pay for that too?
This conspiracy nonsense is one reason why the world is laughing at the US right now. Half of you have been sucked into this MAGA personality cult.
Anyway the facts are that the Yanukovych government was elected on a promise to start EU accession but then suddenly pivoted away from this. That is what triggered the maidan protests. He was then thrown out including by people in his own party.
Just perhaps – it was because the Ukrainians didn’t fancy ending up looking like Belarus.
Really interested to hear you thought on JFK, the moon landing, Sandy Hook etc. – I am sure they have great insight.
I cant help that you get brainwashed by the liberal media here and there about MAGA and trump voters. Not all the same.
I’m glad you think the islamification of the UK,France & Sweden is a conspiracy.
Best wishes mate.
Call me stupid but I became a big fan of our American diplomat George Keenan. He warned both of our parties, was it Bush Sr & Clinton about expanding NATO too close to Russia borders and he was right
When the soviet union collapsed I am wondering why they didnt join the EU? Was it the EU didnt want them? They didnt want to join?
How did the European people feel about that?
Where to start? 1914. They can all go to hell.
“Trump isn’t mentally equipped to understand what the break of the EU would mean but he is (as always) acting exactly as Russia would like him to.”
Russia wants Trump to send even more weapons to Ukraine, to kill Russian troops, out of his frustration with Putin? That Russia, Russia, Russia, narrative does not sense.
Oh stop please, I can’t take this laughing. You’re right Trump is pushing Putin all the way … you could see the anger on his face as he clapped Putin all the way down the red carpet.
Trump at some level seems cognizant of the imperative to NOT have nuclear confrontation. That is a big WIN over the deep-state crazies that formulate and execute American foreign policy.
It’s not much of a compliment, since it’s common sense.
Its not easy to be vassal nowadays.
They have to look after themselves and serve the master at the same time.
Slave and master.
The EU should tell Trump and his tariffs to go to hell. The EU is big enough to stand on its own feet and learn to appease Putin instead of Trump.
That’s how India told US.
“Is an EU breakup Trump’s intent”?
> Isn’t a breakup of the EU a foregone conclusion at this point?
>> Militarily they “Individually” need way more numbers, and that will need to come from the individual entities themselves. A Per Country 5% figure should be heralded, but they would prefer to punt to the larger military Countries to protect them, along with America and the rest of Europe.
>>> I think Ukraine opened up a lot of eyes, as to how broke Europe, and especially the EU, actually are. They have way more to worry about in their own Countries, than to be throwing money down a rabbit hole because perhaps NATO & WEF Etc. Asked/Told them to. A long and painful Winter is coming, and many are not at all prepared for it financially and otherwise imo.
The attached report is pretty informative about the issues that the EU is facing trying to re-arm their defense industries. Page 87 poses the question as to what constitutes defense spending? Different countries have different definitions.
iiss_strategic-dossier_progress-and-shortfalls-in-europes-defence-an-assessment_092025.pdf
I have not read that, but I would guess they support all Countries participate in self defense of some value, but I could be wrong…
The report basically boils down to Europe has depended on the US for far too much & far too long for their defense needs. (why buy the cow when the milk is free?) Now with the US pulling back support, they are all in a frantic effort to improve their own domestic defense capabilities. It is also striking that they are now considering conscription of men & women into the military because nobody wants to join. It is mentioned that in the long run, Western Europe funding their own defense industries will be positive, but in the immediate future they will still have to depend on US weapons as they do not have the current industrial base necessary to produce those weapons on their own.
… Back in high school a teacher broached the topic of popular resistance to an occupation as an alternative to military fighting back against invasion … What do you think?
If the Europeans have a “ considering conscription of men & women into the military because nobody wants to join.” problem then maybe their governments should reorient their foreign relations to bow down and be subservient to Russia, and/or to their own Muslim populations.
They are occupied by the US, which is still building new bases and expanding old ones there.
Italy’s grand plan to meet NATO target: The eternal €13.5B bridge to nowhere.
https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-grand-plan-meet-nato-target-13-5b-bridge-sicily
Isn’t it already too late for Europe? They are overrun by millions of invaders with “No-Go Zones” and unsustainable debt loads. They are de-industrializing, de-militarizing, and just nation-state shells now with virtually no sovereignty wholly owned by the EU central bank, and its bloated marxist bureaucracy.
Owned by US master.
Puppets have to nod whatever master says.
Marxist?
The whole EU-cracy and most especially the central bank is neo-Liberal to the core.
Sadly, I do not see why the EU countries would try to deal with Trump. He is a liar and almost never keeps his word. Trump bullies the EU, and in contrast, rolls out the Red Carpet for Putin, it is hard to miss that Trump is not the EU’s actual ally. Trump attempting to force additional deficit spending on the EU is fiscally irresponsible.
The EU can get its energy from Russia far cheaper than it can from the US and as others have mentioned, the EU has problems that Russia simply does not need. For Russia, the EU is more valuable as a customer than a conquered land. The EU can supply Russia with needed Dollars and Euros to broaden its currency holdings.
Trumps foreign policy is a disaster in so many ways that it is not worth citing the myriad of examples. Putin continues to invade Ukraine successfully and resistance is weakening as Russia continues to take over the country ~ while Trump fails to have any coherent stance or plan to stop him.
Trump is the idiot that boasted that he would end the war on day one with one phone call.
Who does Trump work for?
https://media1.tenor.com/m/yWrkJoXDfLQAAAAd/israel-america.gif
The Russian central bank does not need Dollars or Euros. They buy gold.
“Trump attempting to force additional deficit spending on the EU is fiscally irresponsible.”
Which would mean that EU spending for the war in Ukraine was fiscally irresponsible. It would have been far better to have honored the Minsk Accords.
RonJ wrote “to have honored the Minsk Accords.”
?What was agreed to in the Minsk Accords?
To judge by Wikipedia, the accords were forced on Ukraine by Russia. And the “failure to abide” doesn’t sound like it justified full scale Russian invasion, with a 1968-style “behead the government” invading force drop on Kyiv, almost 8 years later. ….
What Wikipedia says:
The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the Donbas war fought between armed Russian separatist groups and Armed Forces of Ukraine, with Russian regular forces playing a central part.[1] After a defeat at Ilovaisk at the end of August 2014, Russia forced Ukraine to sign the first Minsk Protocol, or the Minsk I.[2] It was drafted by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, consisting of Ukraine, Russia, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE),[3][4] with mediation by the leaders of France (François Hollande) and Germany (Angela Merkel) in the so-called Normandy Format.
After extensive talks in Minsk, Belarus, the agreement was signed on 5 September 2014 by representatives of the Trilateral Contact Group and, without recognition of their status, by the then-leaders of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People’s Republic (LPR). This agreement followed multiple previous attempts to stop the fighting in the region and aimed to implement an immediate ceasefire.
The agreement failed to stop fighting.[5] At the start of January 2015, Russia sent another large batch of its regular military.[2] Following the Russian victory at Donetsk International Airport in defiance of the Protocol, Russia repeated its pattern of August 2014, invaded with fresh forces and attacked Ukrainian forces at Debaltseve, where Ukraine suffered a major defeat, and was forced to sign a Package of Measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements, or Minsk II,[2] which was signed on 12 February 2015.[6] This agreement consisted of a package of measures, including a ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line, release of prisoners of war, constitutional reform in Ukraine granting self-government to certain areas of Donbas and restoring control of the state border to the Ukrainian government. While fighting subsided following the agreement’s signing, it never ended completely, and the agreement’s provisions were never fully implemented.[7] The former German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier suggested a mechanism of granting an autonomy to Eastern Donbas only after “the OSCE certified that the local elections had followed international standards”, called the Steinmeier formula.[8]
War has a way of eliminating pensions.
War is destroying the working young aged group.
There will be a real demographic crisis down the line.
Mish, far more interesting to your American readers: What is the USA currently spending, by Category (Equipment, Men, Pensions, Pentagon, etc.). I have zero interest in reading more crap about Politics in Europe.
We live there part time and NO ONE (we know people from Every Schengen Country) and NO ONE cares about Military spending but the REALLY care about keeping their FREE HEALTH CARE.
I am in one of the founding countries of the EU and Schengen zone, and everybody here pays for private medical insurance. The notion that everything is free in Europe is greatly exaggerated, and it is not the same everywhere. Some countries have more or less free tuition (we used to pay tuition even for high school students), but they limit entry to programs to better students. Medical systems and co-pays vary. Public transit is free or cheap in certain areas trying to have less car congestion, but in others you have to pay.
Even in countries with so-called free health care, there are mandatory contributions by way of what in the US is known as with-holding taxes. As a rule, such contributions (unemployment, disabilities compensations, widow & orphans benefits) here are called “premiums” since they go to separately financed insurance administrations, instead of “taxes” as in the US (where social security withholding is called a tax, but corporate pension withholding in contrast is also known as “premium” or “contribution”). A lot of this is just framing and ideology (and accounting » dedicated funding).
Ha ha! With their economy stagnating and migrants changing the demographics, we will see what sort of FREE HEALTH CARE they have in 20 years.
The EU is the political extension of NATO, with the latter’s purpose expressed by its first head as: ‘to keep Russia out, the Americans in and Germany down.’
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/natos-true-nature-exposed/
Agree with sentient. EU serfs are better off exiting that protection racket.
I think the USA should have compulsory military service. Lead by example.
Absolutely. And for several reasons. Let our youth see how it is in a lot of countries that make do on so much less than what we have. Might appreciate America a little more.
Rural 10 Yr old African kids walking 3 miles round trip to get clean water to carry home and are 14 year olds are pushing buttons on their keyboard & an amazon package arrives at their door in 24 hours. And Mommy & Daddy paid for it.
Oh do we so need a reality check.
Just like the ones who were sent to Vietnam Nam, right? Amazon was a river in their 4th grade geography books, like French Indo-China was a country.
I don’ know what you mean?. If you got from what I said was that we should be invading countries man do you project too much. Good lord man, wow.
I think the Vietnam War was probably one of it not the number 1 horrific & stupid wars America either started or got involved with.
JFK peace core type stuff was more of what I was referring too.
Let our kids see the world, NOT INVADE IT.
Please explain what you are inferring
Rotate members on congress for 2 year tours.
Compulsory Service = Slavery
Period
How do you view kids going to school since it’s compulsory? Is school a form of slavery too even if it’s in theory benevolent due to learning?
Or what about paying income taxes since those are compulsory? Are we all tax slaves to government spending?
There has always been a way out of compulsory military service (college, conscientious/religious exemptions, leaving the country, medical reasons) so I wouldn’t say it’s an equivalent of slavery.
Another way out was/is; And I don’t mean to upset PapaDave by bringing this up but somehow wealthy familes sons always seem to not be in a foreign land with a rifle in their hand at a much higher % than everyone else.
Sending a kid to school is unlikely to get him killed as long as the stoned trannies are kept at bay.
As a former slave, I agree.
Right up there with the old-time corvee = “Corvée is a form of unpaid forced labour that is intermittent in nature, lasting for limited periods of time, typically only a certain number of days’ work each year. Statute labour is a corvée imposed by a state for the purposes of public works.“
In the ancient world, they considered the following 3 things to mark tyranny:
This is why the Persian or Ottoman Empires are regarded as relatively (by comparison) enlightened or benign — the relative absence of such impositions and proxy rule.
What will happen to Borrell’s garden without cheap Russian energy they so gladly and pompously eliminated?
Lack of energy, raw materials and farmland was a primary reason the Wehrmacht went east. It is a perennial European problem. It explains, much further back, the age of empires. But it carries the cautionary tale of the World Wars and Cold War. And now it seems to be rearing its head again in some form, maybe plastered over with accounting worksheets, for now.
A few more PowerPoint slides will fix this.
No upvotes? Tough crowd, tough crowd…
Or maybe mentioning “PowerPoint” is giving some of you retirees bad flashbacks of how much bullshit you endured in your career.
LMAO, I gave you one lol
What lack of farmland?
The whole EU budget has been perennially plagues by agricultural surpluses. Right now they are turning land into swamps along the East European periphery.
Lack of energy is relative. China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan — all lack adequate energy sources, none are independent of raw materials imports. In Slochteren there is still a trillion m³ of gas that they are leaving in the ground because of “climate”; Norway is also part of Europe, along with Greenland.
The grandchildren and heirs of Nazi officials and collaborators leading many European countries dreaming of avenging their grandfathers doesn’t help.
The recent agreement at the SCO between Russia and China to build the Power of Siberia 2 pipeline will include port liquefaction infrastructure to serve Europe with LNG.
Thanks, did not know that.
“Ship it to China to ship it to Europe”. Truth is stranger than fiction.
…
My first few search attempts to learn more yields nothing. (I’m curious whether the deal mentions potential volume guarantees to Europe.). Do you have any links?
Europe will be lucky to get any (more) energy from Russia, much less guarantees. Their nominal rulers (Starmer, Merz, Macron, Von Der Leyen, Kallas) are threatening to wage direct war against Russia in a few years. While that seems implausible and perhaps improbable, Russia has less hostile customers for its energy resources.
All are part of the same death cult as rules Ukraine.
In most cases, by ancestry.
Last time this group conspired to have a war against Russia it did not go well.
Thank you, I did not know that…………..I have a friend asking me will that pipeline get blown up when its operational or just before?
That was a joke………….Kind of
It’s funny cuz it’s true!
I’m laughing with ya
Europe’s problem is of its own making. They should just refuse Trump’s demand that they waste money on “defense”. What’s the worst that could happen? They get kicked out of NATO? They should be so lucky. It’s just a system to make them surrender their sovereignty to the U.S. and pay for it. Of course, they’re so thoroughly propagandized they view as “protection “ their being using as weapons. This interview with a Finnish professor explains it well:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cooOW1qt7Ng&list=PLgfli1PY64h3bpPsycG1E1PquoujN9wII&index=2&pp=iAQB
I agree with you.
Me 2. And David, are the EU leaders just flat out lying about defending Ukraine? Will they keep funding & funding more of the war?
Like Sentient said, why the hell are they going along with NATO & America here? Makes no sense to me.
And the whole Putin will invade the rest of Europe? Really? The EU is an economic disaster and F the PC crap, the UK, France, Sweden for starters have a serious problem with an islamic culture that will never become Europeans. Oh sure Putin wants to inherit that mess.
Russian federation might not be nearly as big but its a large country with a declining population. No reason to inherit someone else headaches.
And last I read, while Europe is getting more & more of there natural gas & oil elsewhere they still get between 25% to 30% of it from Russia!
Trump did not start this war. He might not be doing much to stop it now either but neither did Obama & Biden.
So we have the European left pro war, the Democratic party pro war and everyone else wondering WTF is going on??
They know it’s better to fight Russia in some other country than their own.
You drank the cool aid too Senor?
Are you speaking for European citizens or European Politicians?
David Heartland just said he lives their part time and no civilian population cares about military spending. Well if they dont care about military spending why & how the hell do they care about the war?
Sounds like the politicians want this war and the people don’t.
Just like how the politicians keep dumping a migrant culture that has no desire to become European and basically wants sharia law in their own neighborhoods. But the people don’t want them.
But hey you get to speak for an entire continent.
Next are your going to tell me these new migrants are going to fight for the EU in Ukraine?
Many have had Russia (USSR) in their countries with tanks. It’s easy to sit on this side of the pond with no historical memory active, and say they’re wasting their time.
And they, in their day, were the masters of empires extracting stuff from foreigners in their hinterlands. So they know what both sides of that equation are.
Baltic states, Georgia. Ok………But this isnt Nazi Germany. My sister in laws mom remembers as a child in Italy nazi german soldiers cutting through their land. Not Russian. Didn’t Russia help us take down Germany in WW2? I have read Russia lost millions more soldiers than the United States did in WW2.
Lets see if the European leaders back up what they say. I am not convinced the people want to go along with it.
Are you?
The USSR hasn’t existed for 34 years. And remember that to a great degree it was run by non-Russians.
> They know it’s better to fight Russia in some other country than their own.
This attitude is an arrogant recipe to destroy other nations. When one power does it over and over and pushes up to another power’s border, the other power will make this same decision and start pushing back.
indeed, it is the lesson Russians learned in ww2, after the USSR lost 27 million people. Putin explicitly said they will “not allow a fist to take shape on their border”. That’s what nato did to Ukraine: build it up into the largest army in Europe west of Russia. Plus the biolabs and bases.
NATO preferred to expend Ukrainians to kill Russians than to let Ukraine remain independent and non-threatening, because the nato think tanks dream of breaking Russia apart and installing a dozen new Yeltsins . Lindsay, Nuland, and mccain’s ghost are loving this. They’re actually hitting Russia in the rear, while Russia thus far has not struck nato directly.
Better to do business. No future in war.
I need to correct myself on something. EU importing of Russia gas & oil is now significantly lower than the prior 25%
However, and we have no idea how reliable information from CREA is but in 2024 the EU imported & paid more fuel in currency than it gave to Ukraine in financial/military aid.
So I suppose in 2025 this is changing? I’ll believe it when I see it.
> Trump did not start this war.
Think of RICO or ”joint and several liability”. Blame everyone who helped stage the 2014 coup, build Ukr armed forces, and preside over joint NATO-Ukr exercises. Not just the senile scapegoat the mafia chose for presiding over the final escalation.
Trump is as guilty as anyone for the war. He still brags about arming Ukraine, which IIRC became the 1st or 2nd largest in Europe. During his term, nato published its exercises with its Ukr forces, to integrate them. To this day, the war continues because the west, nominally led by trump, wishes to continue.
I speculate but don’t know why Russia plays along with this charade of USA and Trump as mediator rather than instigator/perpetuator. I reject the proposition.
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As for Islam, Malaysia seems to be a successful multicultural country. If you’re not Muslim, you’re not bound by Islamic law. Its existence tells me multiculturalism is possible. However, I agree with you that rulers should not change their nation over their people’s preferences. I like the USA (sometimes struggling) ideal as a melting pot. But I don’t think every nation in the world must be “forced” to mimic us.
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+1 otherwise…
Jury still out on Malaysia. Wanna bet in 10 years that changes?
I agree America has to stop forcing other countries to be like us.
Both parties had a hand in this. But listening to people here or our American media they act like Trump started this .
Then we have Biden as a VP pillaging Ukraine oil companies at was it $50,000 a month for his sons oil business expertise?, you know that was a supposed total lie according to the liberal media, only to be proven to be true.
Hell how do the American people know Biden wasn’t bribed to keep funding this war his president started??
Yeah…I commiserate.
Anan7 wrote “… To this day, the war continues because the west, nominally led by trump, wishes to continue.”
No. It continues because Ukrainians want to continue fighting for their independence. This is not like the Eastern Front 1917 when Russian soldiers turned around and walked away from the front. There continues to be more Russians this week deserting to the Ukraine side than vice-versa.
[1] Trump started it.
NATO held scores of exercises in Ukraine during his first term, and participated in scores more. NATO trained continuously more brigades in Ukraine during the period. The CIA opened up 20 bases (and biological labs) along the Russian border. All kinds of military/naval infrastructure was being built. The secret police, military officer training, NATO interoperability, and bases were all being worked on. Trump oversaw the build out and arming of the US proxy army in Ukraine.
Trump gave lethal aid where Obama was cautious, mentioning that Russia would always have escalation dominance.
[2] The EU leaders are all bought and paid for American puppets, increasingly at odds with their own population (and reality).
[3] Is Europe an economic disaster? Where I live the technology essential for producing high-end chips in Taiwan and China is under American sanctions. The value-added EU (not all of Europe) manufacturing base is bigger than in the USA. That’s why Europe sells more stuff to the USA than vice versa (Americans sell mainly commodities such as soy beans and LNG; and forced NATO purchases of American weapons). The debt/GDP ratio here is 43%; the debt/revenue ratio [the relevant metric: debt is serviced from revenue, not from turn-over] is 101% (in the US it’s north of 740%); the trade export surplus is 13%; there are shortages in the employment market;
With reference to what a British diplomat said describing NATO, it looks like what Russia wants = The USA out of Europe, NATO broken and Europe down and subordinated to Moscow.
That said, it is unknown just how much the new Lord of Europe in the Kremlin will demand of Europeans, beyond deference.
Call me stupid but I became a big fan of our American diplomat George Keenan. He warned both of our parties, was it Bush Sr & Clinton about expanding NATO too close to Russia borders and he was right
When the soviet union collapsed I am wondering why they didnt join the EU? Was it the EU didnt want them? They didnt want to join? Granted I am sure America would have fought against that but I am thinking from what I here from the few Europeans I know and folks here that here we are in 2025 and some would have been ok with Russia in the EU.
Makes me wonder.
Thank you
Get kicked out of NATO, then invaded by Russia. Hooray?
Aren’t you the guys saying Russia’s having a hard time of it in Ukraine? Now they’re going to roll across Poland, turn left and all the way to Portugal? Which is it?
EU is a museum nowadays.
500 years of hegemony has ended.
They are irrelevant to the world but still pretending
as a powerhouse.
As each country’s economy is too small, they have to group together and still not enough they have to follow the more powerful master USA.
Grouping together got them EU-cracy, hardly a step up.
But it is high time to kick the American invasion force out.
I agree with you.
You would be surprised at how many Americans would love to get American soldiers out of foreign countries.
I would rather see them protect our own dam borders. And yeah clean up our freaking city ghettos. In DC(oh by the way the african american mayor of DC thanked Trump, its on record) but hey the virtue signalling white liberals got a bus in from their million dollar homes to DC and a protection detail to complain about a military takeover. Whatever.
Do you know how many Americans where shot, stabbed or killed in Chicago, Baltimore. DC before trump, St Louis, Memphis & New Orleans last month? All democrat run cities for almost 60 years. 60!
But we can’t clean that up because virtue signalling white liberals consider that a military takeover.
Here’s an idea. How about some people stop trying to take other people’s stuff. Then we can all get along just fine. It’s been happening for a long time the west salivating over Russian riches.
Bingo. Totally agree.
Carry that suggestion to Moscow. The big problem right now is Russia intruding and destroying Ukrainian stuff.