When Does the Sizzling Economy Hit a Recession Brick Wall?

Greg IP one of my favorite WSJ writers says the Bond Market Forecasts Bad Economic News

Since the start of the year, investors appear to have reassessed the interest-rate outlook. Bonds have sold off, with the 10-year Treasury yield, which moves in the opposite direction to its price, jumping to 1.7% from 1.5% at the end of 2021.

Yet there are good reasons to think today’s sizzling economy may be just a temporary respite. Looked at over the longer term, real yields have been declining for decades. Olivier Blanchard, the former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund, makes this point in a new book, “Fiscal Policy Under Low Interest Rates.” In it he notes that safe interest rates—in other words, those on risk-free government debt—have been declining in the U.S., Western Europe, and Japan for 30 years. “Their decline is due neither to the Global Financial Crisis of the late 2000s, nor to the current Covid crisis, but to more persistent factors,” he writes. “Something has happened in the last 30 years, which is different from the past.”

Neel Kashkari, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, said in supporting higher rates this year that he is weighing two opposing risks. One is that high inflation becomes embedded in the public’s behavior, which would require even higher interest rates later on. The other is that after Covid-19 passes, the world returns to the pre-pandemic regime of low growth and low inflation. That regime, he wrote on the publishing site Medium, was driven by “demographics, trade, and technology factors. It is unlikely that these underlying forces have gone away.”

Slower population growth reduces demand for cars, houses and other durable goods, and the need for business to expand capacity. Lengthened life expectancy means people spend more of their lives retired, so they save more in anticipation. In combination, these effects tend to hold down interest rates.

A hit to productivity

Apart from population, the main contributor to growth is productivity, and that too appears to have suffered during the pandemic. While businesses stepped up digitization by investing more in e-commerce, cloud computing and artificial intelligence, productivity has still suffered because of Covid-19 protocols and restrictions, and sweeping changes in where, and whether, people chose to work. The recent rise in inflation suggests the U.S. can’t grow as fast as before without straining productive capacity. Some of those barriers to growth are likely to persist even after the pandemic passes.

Meanwhile, Chinese investment has slowed under the impact of its own Covid-19 restrictions and cooling property sector. 

What if investment and economic growth weaken, but inflation stays high? If inflation settles at, say, 3.5%, as some economists expect, then bond yields could also double to 3.5% with real rates remaining zero. In the U.S., though, high and volatile inflation eventually led to higher real interest rates, while in other countries such as Japan, stagnant growth and low inflation have gone hand in hand.

For now, investors think inflation is coming down, and will average 2.5% over the next 10 years, based on the yields on regular and inflation-indexed bonds. But Joe Gagnon, an economist at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, warns: “Bond markets have never predicted an outburst of inflation. So why would we think they can now?” He adds: “They respond very quickly when inflation starts to rise.”

Population Growth

Low Growth Factors 

One thing Greg IP failed to mention is unproductive debt. The US is swimming in it. 

He did mention productivity and demographics, two points I strongly agree with. 

But also mentioned one thing I strongly disagree with, the alleged savings glut in China. 

The Savings Glut Thesis: What is the True Net Savings?

Let’s review The Savings Glut Thesis: What is the True Net Savings?

Savings Glut?!

Former Fed chair Ben Bernanke says interest rates are so low because of Part 3: The Global Savings Glut

What is Saving?

Saving = Production – Consumption

Here’s a classical example. A farmer producers 100 bushels of wheat. He eats 10 of them and saves 90. But wheat rots. So he sells those 90 bushels for dollars. Those dollars are now his saving.

Personal Savings

Take a look at the above chart.

The three spikes are three rounds of Covid stimulus, the first under Trump and the second two spikes under Biden.

This money was handed out willy-nilly.

What was produced? The answer of course is nothing. 

Total Credit Market Debt Owed

Total credit market debt owed is $85.9 trillion!

That number comes from the Fed.

How much of that can possibly be paid back?

Something Happened

Something has happened in the last 30 years, which is different from the past,” says Minneapolis Fed president Neel Kashkari.

Yes, it has and the Fed is clueless as to what it is. 

The answer is unproductive debt is a huge drag on the economy. And the Fed needs to keep interest rates low to support that debt. 

This keeps zombie corporations alive and also spurs financial speculation, also a drag on growth.

When Does Recession Hit?

If the Fed does get in three rate hikes in 2022, then 2023 or 2024.  And it may not even take three hikes. 

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tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Mish, can you provide a reference for that Kashkari quote?  Thanks
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
The Total Credit Market Debt Owed looks quite a bit different if you use Log Scale as you should.  Not saying it changes the problem, but the Debt is only 1 of several problems, some of which you also covered here, like Demographics.
FooFooFed
FooFooFed
2 years ago
If your not a fan of Socialism then better start voicing your concerns to the powers that be and making your voice heard. The younger generation can’t afford anything, all assets and standard of living is moving away from them quickly. QE doesn’t work, if it did why do we still think it works. Growth over last ten years is flat. Fed solutions are a direct result of their inability to understand the plumbing of the system. If we don’t replace them with competent minds then Kashari and the likes will burn us down because we let them. Just look at the eurodollar market, how many at the fed understand the plumbing of it? Zero. It will be our fault in the end, that we didn’t do anything but dance around the Feds policies to protect our investments. 
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
2 years ago
Empire State Manufacturing Index
Prior … 31.9
Expected … 26.0
Actual … (0.7)
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
““Something has happened in the last 30 years, which is different from the past,” says Minneapolis Fed president Neel Kashkari.

Yes, it has and the Fed is clueless as to what it is.”

What
happened was an expansive monetary policy coupled with a restrictive fiscal
policy but the Fed members know all about that. The big difference is one that
they are blind too because they come within financial institutions and don’t
have a view from outside. What really changed was when Greenspan started
bailing out financial institutions. He started in 1987 with the stock market
crash. He then bailed out Long Term Capital Management in 1998 using the same logic,
that is it was a systemic risk and had to be managed. The Greenspan Put by then
was well established. The subsequent crises always followed the same rule. The
too big to fail would always be bailed out no matter what. That is what was new
thirty years ago. The Fed members come from these institutions and just can’t
imagine a world without Goldman, JPMorgan or the other top banks. The Greenspan
Put is central to their thinking and it is inconceivable to them not to use it.

KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
True, but I lean more towards monetary debasement. Happened with all empires going back to the romans clipping the edges of coins. The reason it’s not as noticeable as in the past is everyone is debasing at the same time. We think things are more valuable when in reality the value of currencies has gone down.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
How would you measure this debasement? If it is by inflation then we haven’t had too much abasement since 1981 compared to before. You could measure it by home prices like here. 
But the average home size has increased as well:
Needless to say our population has doubled since 1955 and the amont of land has remained the same.

We could
measure it by the price of a university education and the cost of healthcare
but both of those costs are highly tied to price-gouging oligarchic behavior
rather than the debasement of the currency. I am not sure that tying our currency
to gold, bitcoin or any other currency proxy would solve these problems.

Webej
Webej
2 years ago
A Thought Experiment
Imagine a society whose demography represents a pig in a python.
As the pig moves along
  • schools are expanded when they are childen
  • consumption reaches a boiling point as they hit 30
  • assets are bid up furiously as they (& their pension funds) age into their 70’s while consumption trails
  • house prices are out of reach to the young as the old invest in real estate
  • assets crash as they need to liquidate to finance old age or upon death
Ignoring all other variables (including authorities blind to the pig who cling to a stochastically balanced ensemble), this is largely what we see.
I would never call it a “savings glut”, but the bid for assets was inevitable, regardless of policy or ideology.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
“assets are bid up furiously as they (& their pension funds) age into their 70’s while consumption trails”
But consumption didn’t.
Not when “savings”, as in “withholding from consumption” has; due to financialization and implied Fed backstops; been replaced with “handing what I don’t consume to dilettante conmen in New York and in government, so that they can lavishly consume it instead.”
Then, what you are left with is NO savings. Just a Ponzi.
And with no actual savings by necessity having resulted in a complete gutting of once-was productive capacity. Such that nothing is anymore able to be produced.
Then, old age instead turns into preoccupation with ensuring government, as well as what was once a legal system, keep taking from someone else, in order to hand some of what I; ever so  self righteously; believe I am due, to me-me-me! Since, me-me-me never actually saved anything, but instead just kept propping up conmen living it up on superyachts and preening around at state dinners and paying off “constituencies.”
Latin America has been like that for decades already: A few gated communities full of rank nothings, solely preoccupied with maintaining “systems” of “law” and government channeling whatever wealth is being produced by others, their way. While their dilettante children gets handed various useless “degrees,” aimed at making them seem edumecated enough to justify them continuing to “lead”, in the exact same fashion. While everyone else should just shut up, work with ever dwindling capital, and pump their fists and cheer, for their “edumecated” dilettante overlords.
The US is no different, in any way whatsoever, from that. Just a bit later to the party; having started the decline from a higher initial starting point.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
2 years ago
It’s already hitting. The supply chain has delayed our product launch by at least 6 months. My company would treat me like a hero if I swam up to the cargo ships to retrieve our electronic parts.
TechLover1
TechLover1
2 years ago
It is interesting that the fed rates futures market is predicting four rate hikes this year and another one in Feb 23 as of today.
I do take this signal seriously as people are putting money and this is not traded by the retail investors. So this is a decent indicator of where the market participants expect the rates to be.
What I can’t wrap my head around is that how is this sustainable for the zombie companies and debtors in general including the governments (I do believe this is will be even more problematic for city and state governments than Federal).
We will see shortly how this unfolds. We live in interesting times.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
2 years ago
wonderful post mish.  keep it up.  
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Something has happened in the last 30 years, which is different from the past.”

It is more like 40 years.  First, we got the failure of the fiscal trickle-down policy of the Reaganites.   Its only success was to make the rich and the corporations even richer.    Then, we got the failure of the monetary trickle-down policy of the Wall Street Fed.  Its only success was to the make the super-rich and powerful corporations even richer and even more powerful.

vanderlyn
vanderlyn
2 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
bingo.   1965 silver default.   1971 gold default.   peak empire of guns and butter.    empires crumble.    the rest is eyewash.    
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
1980 was an inflation rate inflection point. The top of the mountain had been reached and it was down hill from there.
Steve Jobs wasn’t rich when he started Apple. A number of other entrepreneurs were not rich when they started, but are now. Just guessing, but i don’t think Steve Kirsch was rich before he invented the optical mouse.
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
“Lengthened life expectancy means people spend more of their lives retired…”
McCain died in office, not wanting to retire. Fauci is 80. Buffett is still running Berkshire. 
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
That report was referring to ALL people.   Not just Senators, high-ranking officials and billionaire investors!   LOL
astroboy
astroboy
2 years ago
OT, but does anyone have any thoughts on what a Russian invasion of Ukraine (probably just sending troops into the areas which are held by rebels at the moment) would have on the stock market or US economy in general?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
I suspect there is minimal impact on the US with Russian troops just occupying. After Afghanistan, the US won’t rush into conflict. Maybe a few economic sanctions so as not to offend Putin.
However,
1) What will NATO do?
2) What will Biden do for his family’s investments?
3) What happens when it heats up.
Christoball
Christoball
2 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
Internet scams will decline.
davebarnes2
davebarnes2
2 years ago
“When Does the Sizzling Economy Hit a Recession Brick Wall?”
When no expects it.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Reply to  davebarnes2
Alternatively, when the Fed can no longer keep interest rates at fairy-tale levels. Because the Fed has done so in the past, most people think they can, and will do so in perpetuity; when, in fact, all they are doing is postponing the inevitable debt implosion, thereby making it that much worse.  About now, I think the Fed is hoping (praying) for a soft slowdown and a fast recovery.
With inflation surging enough to drive risk-free interest rates to (note: based on the Fisher equation) +/- 8% (one year), a piddling 0.25% hike is a drop in the bucket. So what might cause such an ‘exogenous’ increase that the Fed cannot control it?  Not necessarily a black swan event; it could be as simple as an economic slowdown, with the realization the pig trough is empty.
The next question is how precipitous will the decline be?
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
2 years ago
When the Socialists run out of other peoples’ money?
Christoball
Christoball
2 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
Also when speculators run out of other peoples money.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
2 years ago

“The answer is unproductive debt is a huge drag on the economy. And the Fed needs to keep interest rates low to support that debt. 

This keeps zombie corporations alive and also spurs financial speculation, also a drag on growth.”

Nailed It.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
2 years ago
“If the Fed does get in three rate hikes in 2022, then 2023 or 2024.  And it may not even take three hikes.”
I’ll take the under.  Taper (supposedly) ending in March.  IF they manage this – the incremental Federal Reserve will want to assess (dawdle) to avoid any Market Tantrums.  
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
If the Dow goes below 30,000 and/or the S&P 500 goes below 4000, then all rate hikes are off the table, and we will get started on QE 6 (or is it QE7 or QE8?) right away!   
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Persistent low rates are because of persistent money printing by central banks. Interest rates are the price of money and printing has resulted in a glut of money. High supply = low prices.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
I’m not sure why the Fed is obsessed with keeping housing prices higher and higher. The only thing I can think is that most of the bonds they supported were all RMBSes. 
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Increasing housing prices resulted less from increased demand than Fed-driven lower interest rates. If interest rates increase, housing prices will slow/drop. Foreclosures will increase as equity disappears, inducing greater price decline–sounds like 2008? Associated mortgage-backed bond holders will take a bath. That’s what happens when loans are taken out at under 3% when the interest rate should be several times higher.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
A simple example for a 30 year mortgage for $400,000 at a Fed-induced 3% (monthly) interest rate. If the market rate increases to 8% (about where it should be nowadays), that bond becomes worth $172, 860.
Scooot
Scooot
2 years ago
“Neel Kashkari, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, said in supporting higher rates this year that he is weighing two opposing risks. One is that high inflation becomes embedded in the public’s behavior,…..”
I think this is the case now, people have the perception that there is no choice but to pay up, which will probably drive higher wage demands and fuel the price rise spiral. I do think the economy is going to slow, and maybe there’ll be a recession, but it’s far from certain that will temper inflation much, especially when monetary policy is so loose, and it will still be loose after 3 hikes. 

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