Excessive Force Charges
his civil rights section to be the lead prosecutors for the case which is being investigation by both FBI and DC Police @DCPoliceDept
The same US Attorney’s Office has also opened a homicide investigation into the death of Capitol Hill Police Officer Brian Sicknick.— Catherine Herridge (@CBS_Herridge) January 9, 2021
Amazing footage Inside the Capitol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfiS8MsfSF4
That’s a lengthy video but it takes in the entire episode.
Please play a few minutes at the beginning, then either watch the rest or skip to the 34:20 mark for an additional couple of minutes.
Those minutes following the 34:20 mark show in graphic detail the shooting of Babbitt.
Another Video
https://twitter.com/justinjm1/status/1347232173217230849
Other Frames Seconds Before Babbitt Shot
Ann Coulter Chimes In
I feel sorry for both the officer and the woman he killed, but it looks like he had to do it. https://t.co/zvA7fiVmy0
— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) January 10, 2021
That’s a reasonable, level-headed synopsis by Coulter even if one can debate a few points.
- Did the officer have to shoot?
- Should one feel sorry for Ashli Babbitt?
- Should one feel sorry for the officer?
Regarding point one: The officer did not “have” to do it. But was he reasonably justified in doing so in the heat of the moment?
Regarding point two: Should one feel sorry for a criminal who is shot in an attack, smashing glass and beating down doors, attempting to break into a room in the capitol?
Regarding point three: Yes. This one is clear. The officer should not have been in the position he was placed in.
Excessive Force Going Nowhere
The excessive force investigation is by Trump’s new Attorney General. It is going nowhere, nor should it.
Have to Happen?
This did not “have” to happen. But it did.
Why?
Trump encouraged it. Rudy Giuliani and others fueled it.
Be There, Be Wild
“Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” That was one of several Trump Tweets on December 19 promoting the day.
Placing the Blame
- Start with the perpetrators who broke into the capitol. Of course, that includes Ashli Babbitt.
- Second, blame Trump for promising a “wild” January 6.
- Third, blame people like Rudy Giuliani and others who encouraged others to break the law then stood like goons on the sidelines letting others do their dirty work.
Chaotic Moments in the Capitol
- “Nothing will stop us….they can try and try and try but the storm is here and it is descending upon DC in less than 24 hours….dark to light!” Babbitt tweeted the day before she died.
- In another tweet, she called for Vice President Pence to resign and to be prosecuted for treason, presumably for not being supportive enough of Trump’s calls to overturn the election.
- In the days before the shooting, Babbitt retweeted a number of messages from demonstrators headed to D.C. for the protests on Wednesday. One read: “It will be 1776 all over again…. only bigger and better.”
The above from Chaotic Moments in the Capitol.
1776 Over Again
Feel sorry for Babbitt if you want, but she is no hero. She was part of a terrorist mob that broke into the capitol egged on by Trump.
Antifa attacks in other cities may have fueled this counter-riot, but left-wing riots do not justify right-wing riots.
Sorry? For whom? For what?
Mish
I’m dropping this here. It should be obvious to us that we already have competing narratives about what happened at the Capitol last week, and what it really means.
Not that many minds have been changed.
Matt Taibbi is the journalist who best understands the way that we got here from where we used to be…..as a country….and why each us believes something different…..based on whether we value the NYT as an unbiased source….or some conservative source like Fox. Or some even more extreme source on the right or left.
It’s the media, stupid. Marketing has created a divided country.
For profit companies long-term sell what people will buy. Taibbi’s pines for a more neutral, news and facts oriented media source rather than one that treats content as a product highly customized for its audience, for better or for worse.
But nobody’s shown that Taibbi’s dream works at a similar scale. Fox saw a market opportunity and ran with it. And that success served as a template for everybody else in a time where media, new and old, was crushed by the commoditization that comes with no barrier to entry and a distribution model built on intra-market segment spread (shares, links, etc) rather than simple, choice-limited broadcasts. Of course, they’re going to optimize for engagement.
If there was a lot more money to be made by doing news and analysis that was geared towards an audience’s frontal lobe as opposed to the emotion centers, the Economist would be the dominant publication. But it’s not. It’s dwarfed by the media giants.
Just as people get the government they deserve, so it is true with media.
What we have now is many versions of the National Enquirer. Each one targeted with it’s headlines and articles to the people who want to hear “the facts” regarding what they believe.This is human nature, although when done without analysis, just serves the ego. Taibi maybe suggesting that there may be a better way to deliver the “news”, a way to motivate people to actually analyze the news to better understand the whole picture. Unfortunately, although the internet has made this a lot easier to do, very few actually take the time to do the critical thinking. Hopefully, that will change as time goes on.
“We’re coming for you”–no incitement
I hope Jr. gets prosecuted to the full allowed extent of the law.
OPINION
|
The Roots of Josh Hawley’s Rage
Opinion
The Roots of Josh Hawley’s Rage
Why do so many Republicans appear to be at war with both truth and democracy?
By Katherine Stewart
Ms. Stewart has reported on the religious right for more than a decade. She is the author of “The Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism.”
Jan. 11, 2021, 5:00 a.m. ET
Senator Josh Hawley on Wednesday, as the crowd that would storm the Capitol marched.
Senator Josh Hawley on Wednesday, as the crowd that would storm the Capitol marched.Credit…Francis Chung/E&E News and Politico, via Associated Press
In today’s Republican Party, the path to power is to build up a lie in order to overturn democracy. At least that is what Senator Josh Hawley was telling us when he offered a clenched-fist salute to the pro-Trump mob before it ransacked the Capitol, and it is the same message he delivered on the floor of the Senate in the aftermath of the attack, when he doubled down on the lies about electoral fraud that incited the insurrection in the first place. How did we get to the point where one of the bright young stars of the Republican Party appears to be at war with both truth and democracy?
Mr. Hawley himself, as it happens, has been making the answer plain for some time. It’s just a matter of listening to what he has been saying.
In multiple speeches, an interview and a widely shared article for Christianity Today, Mr. Hawley has explained that the blame for society’s ills traces all the way back to Pelagius — a British-born monk who lived 17 centuries ago. In a 2019 commencement address at The King’s College, a small conservative Christian college devoted to “a biblical worldview,” Mr. Hawley denounced Pelagius for teaching that human beings have the freedom to choose how they live their lives and that grace comes to those who do good things, as opposed to those who believe the right doctrines.
The most eloquent summary of the Pelagian vision, Mr. Hawley went on to say, can be found in the Supreme Court’s 1992 opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Mr. Hawley specifically cited Justice Anthony Kennedy’s words reprovingly: “At the heart of liberty,” Kennedy wrote, “is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life.” The fifth century church fathers were right to condemn this terrifying variety of heresy, Mr. Hawley argued: “Replacing it and repairing the harm it has caused is one of the challenges of our day.”
In other words, Mr. Hawley’s idea of freedom is the freedom to conform to what he and his preferred religious authorities know to be right. Mr. Hawley is not shy about making the point explicit. In a 2017 speech to the American Renewal Project, he declared — paraphrasing the Dutch Reformed theologian and onetime prime minister Abraham Kuyper — “There is not one square inch of all creation over which Jesus Christ is not Lord.” Mr. Kuyper is perhaps best known for his claim that Christianity has sole legitimate authority over all aspects of human life.
“We are called to take that message into every sphere of life that we touch, including the political realm,” Mr. Hawley said. “That is our charge. To take the Lordship of Christ, that message, into the public realm, and to seek the obedience of the nations. Of our nation!”
Mr. Hawley has built his political career among people who believe that Shariah is just around the corner even as they attempt to secure privileges for their preferred religious groups to discriminate against those of whom they disapprove. Before he won election as a senator, he worked for Becket, a legal advocacy group that often coordinates with the right-wing legal juggernaut the Alliance Defending Freedom. He is a familiar presence on the Christian right media circuit.
The American Renewal Project, which hosted the event where Mr. Hawley delivered the speech I mentioned earlier, was founded by David Lane, a political organizer who has long worked behind the scenes to connect conservative pastors and Christian nationalist figures with politicians. The choice America faces, according to Mr. Lane, is “to be faithful to Jesus or to pagan secularism.”
The line of thought here is starkly binary and nihilistic. It says that human existence in an inevitably pluralistic, modern society committed to equality is inherently worthless. It comes with the idea that a right-minded elite of religiously pure individuals should aim to capture the levers of government, then use that power to rescue society from eternal darkness and reshape it in accord with a divinely-approved view of righteousness.
At the heart of Mr. Hawley’s condemnation of our terrifyingly Pelagian world lies a dark conclusion about the achievements of modern, liberal, pluralistic societies. When he was still attorney general, William Barr articulated this conclusion in a speech at the University of Notre Dame Law School, where he blamed “the growing ascendancy of secularism” for amplifying “virtually every measure of social pathology,” and maintained that “free government was only suitable and sustainable for a religious people.”
Christian nationalists’ acceptance of President Trump’s spectacular turpitude these past four years was a good measure of just how dire they think our situation is. Even a corrupt sociopath was better, in their eyes, than the horrifying freedom that religious moderates and liberals, along with the many Americans who don’t happen to be religious, offer the world.
That this neo-medieval vision is incompatible with constitutional democracy is clear. But in case you’re in doubt, consider where some of the most militant and coordinated support for Mr. Trump’s postelection assault on the American constitutional system has come from. The Conservative Action Project, a group associated with the Council for National Policy, which serves as a networking organization for America’s religious and economic right-wing elite, made its position clear in a statement issued a week before the insurrection.
It called for members of the Senate to “contest the electoral votes” from Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan and other states that were the focus of Republicans’ baseless allegations. Among the signatories was Cleta Mitchell, the lawyer who advised Mr. Trump and participated in the president’s call on Jan. 2 with Brad Raffensperger, Georgia’s secretary of state. Cosignatories to this disinformation exercise included Bob McEwen, the executive director of the Council for National Policy; Morton C. Blackwell of The Leadership Institute; Alfred S. Regnery, the former publisher; Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council; Thomas Fitton of Judicial Watch; and more than a dozen others.
Although many of the foot soldiers in the assault on the Capitol appear to have been white males aligned with white supremacist movements, it would be a mistake to overlook the powerful role of the rhetoric of religious nationalism in their ranks. At a rally in Washington on Jan. 5, on the eve of Electoral College certification, the right-wing pastor Greg Locke said that God is raising up “an army of patriots.” Another pastor, Brian Gibson, put it this way: “The church of the Lord Jesus Christ started America,” and added, “We’re going to take our nation back!”
In the aftermath of the Jan. 6 insurrection, a number of Christian nationalist leaders issued statements condemning violence — on both sides. How very kind of them. But few if any appear willing to acknowledge the instrumental role they played in perpetuating the fraudulent allegations of a stolen election that were at the root of the insurrection.
They seem, like Mr. Hawley himself, to live in a post-truth environment. And this gets to the core of the Hawley enigma. The brash young senator styles himself not just a deep thinker who ruminates about late-Roman era heretics, but a man of the people, a champion of “the great American middle,” as he wrote in an article for The American Conservative, and a foe of the “ruling elite.” Mr. Hawley has even managed to turn a few progressive heads with his economic populism, including his attacks on tech monopolies.
Yet Mr. Hawley isn’t against elites per se. He is all for an elite, provided that it is a religiously righteous elite. He is a graduate of Stanford University and Yale Law School and he clerked for John Roberts, the chief justice. Mr. Hawley, in other words, is a successful meritocrat of the Federalist Society variety. His greatest rival in that department is the Princeton debater Ted Cruz. They are résumé jockeys in a system that rewards those who do the best job of mobilizing fear and irrationalism. They are what happens when callow ambition meets the grotesque inequalities and injustices of our age.
Over the past few days, following his participation in the failed efforts to overturn the election, Mr. Hawley’s career prospects may have dimmed. Two of his home state newspapers have called for his resignation; his political mentor, John C. Danforth, a former Republican senator from Missouri, has described his earlier support for Mr. Hawley as “the biggest mistake I’ve ever made”; and Simon & Schuster dropped his book. On the other hand, there is some reporting that suggests his complicity in efforts to overturn the election may have boosted his standing with Mr. Trump’s base. But the question that matters is not whether Mr. Hawley stays or goes, but whether he is simply replaced by the next wannabe demagogue in line. We are about to find out whether there are leaders of principle left in today’s Republican Party.
Make no mistake: Mr. Hawley is a symptom, not a cause. He is a product of the same underlying forces that brought us President Trump and the present crisis of American democracy. Unless we find a way to address these forces and the fundamental pathologies that drive them, then next month or next year we will be forced to contend with a new and perhaps more successful version of Mr. Hawley.
Katherine Stewart (@kathsstewart) is the author of “The Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism.”
Michael Moore has a hunch that the rioters must have had some help from inside the Capitol w/r to planning. He points to 20-30% staffing levels of Capitol Police on Jan 6th, as well as the ease with which the rioters navigated the confusing maze of unmarked offices inside the Capitol. This attack needs a detailed congressional investigation.
I’ve also wondered why information about the incitement or rioters’ plan was known, while the security came-up short. With advance concern, Congress may have also tweaked how it carried-out its task.
I am hoping Mish posts about the Parler situation. Anyone else find it ironic that after leading an exodus of conservatives (I am a conservative libertarian) on other social media outlets because fake conservatives hate that Twitter and Facebook have private property rights to regulate their own businesses, they flock to Parler as the freedom alternative. Funny how we find out Parler is dependent on the same machine they attack like Amazon, Google, Apple, etc…
Apparently, and I can confirm this after looking at posts on Parler, the free speech included rhetoric that included attacks on American politicians. Now they are gone because Parler didn’t realize with freedom comes responsibility.
The optics are not good. Big tech has caused many to forget about Trump and move to the more important topic of free speech. In the end, Trump is just a narcissistic idiot anyway, and history will not be kind to him.
Yes, there is no question that Google and Apple have the right to regulate what can be downloaded from their stores. Yes, Amazon can regulate what they host from their server farm. Yet, all of them acting at the same time, at the exact time that many were apparently jumping to Parler from Twitter, makes it look suspiciously like trying to eliminate a Twitter competitor. It’s not like Parler is the first to face the wrath of big Tech for supporting free speech. Gab Software went through similar issues.
I do support the rights of people to communicate as they see fit. When we lose the ability to have open, free communication, freedom dies. I do not use Twitter, and I don’t imagine I would use Parler, but to vote for free speech, I downloaded Parler software (which obviously can’t be uses for awhile), and downloaded Dissenter browser, and also terminated by Amazon Prime account.
Gab now appears to have been taken down as well. Hey, if China can prohibit speech it doesn’t like, why not here, too?
They wanted a revolution. People die in such efforts and in the fact these people think their AR-15s are going to crush a government with a trillion dollar defense budget shows a poor lack of judgement on the part of these people.
The best part of all of this is the ignorance of these people who fail to recognize Trump doesn’t even truly defend their gun rights. This is who you died for Ashli Babbit–the man who gave Feinstein her last orgasm.
Maybe the police and national guard should have been there in full shield with greater numbers, with horses and more fencing and barricades set up. just a thought. reporting is that request to do so were turned down over “optics”
Maybe the final optics of the whole episode was just the political hay that was the desired outcome.
Appalled,Embarrassed & Saddened!.
(1:09) Only 10 security guards with no riot gear??
(2:12) Were all part of history!..
(6:58) We gotta burn them!..
(35:07) No breached entry! No warning shot!
One killed unnecessarily due to Trumpism!…
There must be accountability!..
Invoke article 25 Today and silence Trumpism into political oblivion before this escalates out of control!…
This reeks of more than incompetence. Is that gallows still around?
Pretty hard to call this protest non-violent when protesters were smashing out windows to enter. A couple of shotgun blasts from inside would have knocked a few of them backwards and ended the whole thing.
You didn’t hear shotguns by police in various videos posted? This was before the crowd went inside. Didn’t seem to deter anyone.
What were they shooting at? Ducks?
They are lucky they weren’t black. There would have been way more deaths and they wouldn’t have been allowed to even get near the doors. White privilege is a real thing. Even for groups that attack federal government buildings. The capitol police have some sympathy for Trump and his anarchists. Today we learned NYPD and the DoD told the Capitol police of possible attacks well before last Wednesday’s attack. So this begs the question why didnt they prepare or ask for more help. We know the Trump White House basically allowed the attack to occur. But the question remains why did the secretary of the army who was not in the chain of command end up calling the Capitol police a few hours after the acting heads Trump appointed didnt give the Maryland national guard authority to go in when governor Larry Hogan called them saying he needed approval from the powers that be and was repeatedly denied.
Yea, right. Looking at pics of riots this summer. Smashing into stores and looting. Destroying business’s. Didn’t see a lot of dead body’s laying around.
The officer who shot her probably regrets it in retrospect; Ashli probably would have regretted being so gung-ho if she could have any retrospect. A sorry saga indeed.
A regrettable way for a person to go. It would be great if people could pause at this pathetic human story without making a hero, martyr, villain, or such. Lots of people have fates they don’t deserve or didn’t earn, and there are enough people who brought on their own misery who one can still pity and reach out to.
I salute her ‘enemies’ who tried to save her.
Thanks for posting the video. I was surprised that the trespassers/protestors/trumpers seemed jubilant as they chanted “USA! wrapped in American flags and recording themselves as if they weren’t doing anything wrong – “making history” I think one of them said. What does you make of that?
Mish, thanks for mentioning her, she has been forgotten in main stream press. Just the opposite of all other protests a police shooting would be the headlines. Interesting that it’s ok because she is committing a crime. Will that be applicable in all future shootings….. I doubt it.
Hmmm who owns the media?
You may find that many Americans consider defending the nation’s capital is on a different scale than defending Walmart. But to each his own I guess.
The criteria for using deadly force is not whether a crime is being committed, but rather if there’s a credible danger. In this case I think there was. Who knew if the mob was armed or not. A large group of angry violent people were breaking in.
Immediately after she was shot a number of heavily armed police, previously standing 10 feet away stairwell show up. What were they doing until then?
Standing back and standing by, of course.
Trump’s army. The general had a breakdown after they put him on a no fly list
I was wrong@MishTalk
In response to Anne Coulter. I think the police were undermanned and under protected to perform with more “consideration” of the protesters. The police simply did not have proper numbers and lacked gear. It was clear they lost control.
I wonder if police under-manning that day was somehow influenced by Trump sympathizers within the Capitol Police organization. The fact that it was not safe was known ahead of time, including by legislators who asked their staff to stay home.
its possible but i’l stick with the official story for now that they were afraid of the optics of a stronger presence. they may have been scarred by the events of this past summer. until more info i’m picking hanlon’s razor
Not really sorry for babbitt except in the sense that she was clearly not of sound mind, so a mental health intervention might have saved her life. But there are 10’s of millions if others just as ill. It’s a masd delusion the likes of which humanity has probably never seen before. How can you bring that many people back to reality? One by one seems untenable.
I suppose we could look at the denazification of Germany 1945-1948 for ideas. I advocate Nuremberg-style tribunals for starters.
If you have 14 years of service in the Air Force, why would you not complete six more and get retirement? I wonder if her DD214 shines a light on her mental health.
Financial company Stripe stops processing Trump campaign donations. Corporate America starting to halt all political contributions. Maybe more of this will get the attention of the spineless Republican Party. McConnell and Pence should immediately step up and state there was no widespread voter fraud – it was just another one of Trump’s hoaxes.
Well said!.VPOTUS Mike Pence needs to show leadership and defend our Constitution and invoke the 25th Amendment today Monday January 1, 2021 to silence Trumpism and secure our Democracy for future generations to infinity & beyond!..
Sad but not surprising many leftists on this sub are going with “fuck around and find out,” and “play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”
An unarmed woman with six police behind her was shot through the throat and it’s a celebration. There’s no evidence at all she was climbing through the window or posed a threat to anyone on the other side.
A career criminal high out of his mind on fentanyl dies from that + pre-existing heart condition + COVID + panic attack while being possibly mishandled by the police (waiting for an ambulance) and it’s the basis for burning entire city blocks including multiple police stations (in which not one “protester” was shot). Democrat politicians by and large refused to condemn these riots and the press largely refused to use the term “riot.” Multiple “autonomous zones” were declared in what would have been rightfully labelled an insurrectionist move were it done by the Right but instead they are treated with kid gloves.
Hypocrisy and heartlessness is pretty much the hallmark of the left today.
The use of violence against ‘protestors’ should be avoided at all costs. It normally escalates things and everybody loses. For reasons at this stage unclear the the police were woefully underprepared to face these protestors. It should have never reached the stage it did.
While it is true the crowd was mostly ‘peaceful’ it is obvious that some weren’t. At a certain point though the advance of the mob needed to be stopped or who knows what will happen. If you can’t stop them physically then violence and the threat of further violence can and in this case was effective.
Reposting this. The argument is being made that because Trump’s coup attempt was incompetent and unsuccessful it wasn’t a putsch or a coup-d’etat. I call that the Take the Money and Run defense. The bank robbery failed so no crime was committed. I don’t buy that.
My intended point was that all the righteous anger at the people who broke into the Capitol building is somewhat misplaced….that’s all.
The first thing I heard was a bunch of very liberal congress persons calling out for maximum law-and-order…..for them to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law…..which might make some people feel good…..but really does little to change anything…and tends to misdirect the responsibility, which lies higher up, as I said before.
Trump wanted to overturn the election…..I never argued otherwise.
But the same cowering congressmen who are so ready to throw some ignorant rednecks in jail for life….are far too cowardly to do anything to Trump and Rudy G and Don Jr.
I don’t agree. If trespassers are not held accountable they’ll be back. This is what happened in Germany
I have little doubt that if not for the actions of law enforcement we would have had dead legislators
They were there to overthrow a government. being incompetent is no excuse
What? No tanks, no recruiting the military? Seizure of TV and radio stations? They dont make coups like they used to. /sarc/ (You’re veering into deeply speculative opinion. )
She gave her life supporting the world’s biggest sore loser. Trump could give two craps about her…but that’s what she chose. I don’t feel sorry for her because this whole stealing the election narrative is based on racism and disenfranchisement of black voters in Atlanta, Philadelphia and Detroit. The black vote helped flip Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia….therefore the call it fraud.
For some unknown reason the spam filter tagged that. I undeleted it.
Thanks….long-term reader of your blog. I appreciate all that you do.
She didn’t giver her life. She was stunned and obviously did not calculate the possible risks or whether it was worth it. More of an unfortunate mishap than any larger than life drama.
And now Ashli is being used as a martyr recruiting tool…..Republicans have long nurtured the themes underlying this madness and have turned this into a cancer eating away at our democracy.
While the problem seems apparent, a solution is much more perplexing. Mish – any thoughts on the solution aspect? Unite behind democratic party, and work to keep the party centrist and broadly representative? With a failed Republican party, it seems it is important to focus on strength and unity of the remaining major party. If the Democratic party fragments we will have a much greater problem. The democratic party is the best option with respect to representing all Americans and strengthening democratic ideals.
The Republican Party should have reined Trump in long before we got to this latest episode. Rhetoric from politicians is perfectly acceptable. Outright lies to the level we have seen from our current President are a whole other matter. McConnell, Graham et al should shoulder a lot of the blame for what transpired. Spineless, sycophantic politicians that allowed Trump to become a demagogue.
Vote for the party that you think would provide better governance for the country. If you can stomach it and if you desire it, engage with the Republican party to promote change from within.
No matter what your political persuasion, no democracy is healthy with only effective party. But the Republicans need to clean their house.
Until the cancer is controlled, the republican party is toxic.
You’re side is getting ready to implode. When Biden resists the feral left they are going to go after him like wild animals. It’s going to be a bloodbath. When the smoke clears two years will be gone- nothing will have been done- the economy will be flat line and we will take the house and the senate. Politics are exactly like the weather. If you don’t like it wait around a while it will change.
Well, Biden just put Victoria (fuck the EU) Nuland on his National Security team so his Administration is guaranteed to be as venal and militaristic as all of his predecessors. The Democrats are just as beholden to the MIC as the Republicans. Unless your invested in Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, etc. this global domination foreign policy does not serve you well.
An extreme interpretation. She is highly experienced and I would expect has learned a few lessons along the way. A strong addition to the team.
As a liberal leaning voter your proposal stands to benefit my world view, but I don’t like the idea beyond a point. If a strong Dem party is a bridge to a better future, fine. But it isn’t itself the right future. We need a third viable party, some way for coalitions to form impermanently to drive the correct legislation through. The two party system is unlikely to properly service our future as well as it has – at times – serviced our past.
A split in the GOP to me (or either party really) is the way. Let them sort themselves out for a while. What comes out of it will be more sensible and oriented toward coalitions and not swinging the cudgel as Mitch has done for more than ten years. Then let the two less dominant parties engage in cooperative checks and balances. It can’t be worse than what we’ve got.
That would be the natural counterpoint to blm/antifa. That is where it came from.
I cannot find Babbitt’s Twitter acct
Someone have it?
Got It – Thanks
Don’t think it showed up in my reply, trying again:
twitter(dot)com(slash)ashli_babitt, aka CommonAshSense
Deleted I believe
Was still up when I replied. For some reason Maven eats the direct link, but the address I posed should work.
Ugh, I left out the second b in her last name.
twitter(dot)com(slash)ashli_babbitt
I watched the whole thing on live streaming…..from minutes before the crowd broke in. I have resisted watching the footage of the shooting. That wasn’t available in real time.
If I had to describe what I saw, I would never call it any kind of coup. Coups have some kind of organization.
This was the Attack of the Trump Retard Zombies.
Redneck barroom brawler types looking to duke it out with Capitol cops. No plan of any kind……just dumb people……who spent the last four years having a great time tailgating at Trump rallies….becoming almost famous on social media in their wacked out costumes and face paint.
These people weren’t insurrectionists…..they were FANS. The Trump version of football hooligans…….out for a post-game party….with some hope of kicking some libtard ass.
Prosecuting these fools is pointless….as pointless as the death of their head cheerleader Ashli Babbitt. The responsibility lies further up the food chain.
Sorry Sechel That wasn’t intended to be a response to you….just a general comment.
They were being used by Trump in his coup attempt. Even while they were in the capitol building, Trump was on the phone trying to pressure senators to invalidate the election. Lots of them were simpleminded oafs and morons. Those in tactical gear with zip tie handcuffs were much more than that. While saying, “Stop the stem” Trump was busily trying to steal the election. A soft coup, or “autogolpe” .
Just because Trump staged a failed coup and was incompetent doesn’t change what happened.
Let’s not sugar coat this. Five people died because of these “fans” actions. What did they expect to happen when they stormed the Capitol building? That Trump would hand them MAGA hats? They knew what they were doing and deserve to be prosecuted.
If that officer Eugene Goodman had not led dozens of fools up the steps past the opened door to enter the Senate chambers, things would be a LOT different. I heard that there were two snipers trained on that door, so I imagine if they entered that door with legislators present i.3. important lives at risk, the blood of the infidels would have started flowing posthaste.
There definitely were some who had plans, zip ties, body armor, pipe bombs, at least a couple of guns. There was a lot of chatter on websites too. But some were also clearly caught up in the moment. But when you are presented with a potential threat you have go with the intelligence you have, not the intelligence you’ll get later.
Prosecuting all of these fools for terrorism is exactly what is called for.
Also I don’t think that it was an accident that the police were under-manned that day, and that the crowd had no problems finding specific legislators working rooms in the Capitol maze.
It was well organized.
They will be prosecuted, have no fear. But what’s going on now is akin to prosecuting brainwashed children and letting the adults who brainwashed them go free.
I commented on nothing but what I saw…..which looked about as organized as a street fight, or maybe one of these stupid gun rights protests at various state capitals we’ve seen.
I saw no command structure. I saw no particular objectives being carried out……and when the short period of time passed during which there was any real threat to the members of congress, there was no strategic withdrawal…..it looked more like an outing of country bumpkins visiting the Capitol, taking selfies of themselves holding the Speakers gavel.
What you’re saying is silly. Given the lack of security, a real coup could have taken out the entire congress, I’m sorry to day. Mile Pence could have been hanged, and Nancy Pelosi dragged through the streets behind a monster truck.
Yes there was a lot of shit-talk on social media in the days leading up to this……all of which was ignored…..that needs to be looked at……And there were wacked out individuals who brought various incendiaries and bombs to the city….but exactly NONE of it was used to any successful degree.
Organized?
Bullshit.
Oh yes, certainly prosecuting the instigators is much more important. However as we know the rich and powerful will get away scot free for the most part due to an army of lawyers their wealth can pay for. Prosecuting the rioters will be much simpler, and is a good deterrent. I don’t care if they have lives / families outside of this riot activity. You participate – and pay legally.
Totally Justified and the shooter got precisely the correct person if one had to make a choice.
This woman promised 1776 again Thanks to link by Sechel. I added three points to article.
The officer who shot her obviously had no picture of anything she ever said or believed and he obviously shot her only because she was the first to breach the doorway.
You now what would have helped? If Trump didn’t stage the event in the hopes of overturning an election , followed by better planning and more resources. Responsibility starts at the top, Donald Trump followed by the capital hill police and department of defense for not providing proper security. And you had militia types coming with helmets, hand cuffs and home made weapons. This was no first amendment protest. To blame the police is absurd, they were heroes.
Seems a big stretch to make Ashli into a martyr. Her social media was outed within a few hours of her death, it was full of Q style delusions. She also tried to climb through a window with multiple guns trained on her from the other side. We can question whether she should have been shot, but moving forward was foolhardy on her part.
The silver lining is that it dispels the notion that the MAGA crowd can count on the police being on their side. For years there has been a smug assumption that cops are all Trumpkins at heart and that isn’t remotely correct, nor is it true for the military. This reality check may prevent others from carrying out stupidly provocative acts.
They were protecting the #2 (Republican Pence) and #3 persons in line of succession behind a madman. It’s a pretty low bar to cross using deadly force to protect him from a crowd chanting to kill Pence.
“… For years there has been a smug assumption that cops are all Trumpkins at heart and that isn’t remotely correct…”
Well, “all” is obviously impossible. Even if you dispute a majority, how many “Trumpkins” in key leadership positions both in the force and the union would it take to control the police? I believe we’ve been there for a decade. And white supremacism is the reason we have professional police forces to begin with. 200 year legacy of that.
Drawing on 200 old (cherry picked) examples is not persuasive. Any evidence today that police would act outside of their mandates in a systematic way?
Participants in this insurrection do not see it as an act of insurrection, the problem is their source of information and understanding justifies their actions in their POV.
Plato’s allegory of the cave outlines this social mechanism, the source of information (Trump, Fox News, 8Chan, Russian trolls….etc) that led up to this, Plato also states that interrupting someone’s erroneous perception will be met with adversity.
The Asch conformity experiments further elaborate on how group-think in a closed group can reinforce extreme, wrong and even outright evil idea’s as “normal”.
They have to get to a point where it can no longer be avoided that the source of their information is erroneous. (There are many documentaries of extremists which conclude this, they often only see the error of their thinking once incarcerated, or lives shattered)
Unfortunately for Ashli Babbit, she had to die while crawling through a shattered window in front of a crowd chanting “Hang Mike Pence”, but maybe some of her ilk can see why her death was pointless, why their approach might be fueled by disinformation.
Maybe.
A check now shows I did not delete any comments by@truthseeker.
I do not believe it is auto-deletion by any spam filter either because I can see those and undelete them.
My best guess, assuming they were posted, is they were in response to something that I did delete.
If someone replies to a garbage comment that I delete, every reply is permanently gone as well.
If that is not the answer I do not know what it is. I will have the Maven look into this in case I am missing something.
The police would have been justified in opening fire on everyone breaking into the capitol building and should have. This was domestic terrorism and should have been met with deadly force as soon as that crowd started breaking into the building. Full stop.
Yes! But …. they were all white and had support from within, so….
Easy to question the shooter with 20/20 hindsight, now that we know most of the rioters ended up being clowns looking to litter and take selfies. Unless/until we find out what the shooter was being told by his commanders, he could have reasonably expected the worst to be coming through that door after the first one got through.
which one is which? some came with home made hand cuffs. another killed someone with a fire extinguisher. yes some were just QAnon, others were white militia members blended in.
Agreed. If Tamir Rice was dangerous, Ashli Babbitt was Hitler, Bin Laden and Son of Sam rolled into one.
They could have used tear gas, tazers, rubber bullets etc.
SHOOTING AN UNARMED WOMAN, DEAD?
Some think that us justified, I do not.
Barbarism based on disparity of power and violence.
A hard rain is gonna fall.
Why do you care more about Babbitt, who was breaking the law, than Sicknick, who was sworn to uphold it?
Why do you hate the police so much?
This!
I don’t hate the police but that level of violence against an unarmed woman is wrong and disprortionate. I am anti-gun and anti-violence. It is not acceptable.
The whole thing is an example of a society in crisis with deep seated problems that are unlikely to go away anytime soon and possibly worsen.
A hard rain is gonna fall.
I’d believe you if you said Breonna Taylor. Go ahead, say her name.
I mention no names, its not a game of ping-pong or a relative issue.
Why no steps to lethal force? Mustard, tear gas?
Its shoot first ask questions later that is not the basis of a civil society.
I dont blame the officer, the culture and system is screwed and very few can see it as such violence is endemic.
A hard rain is gonna fall.
On the heads of the insurrectionists, most definitely. There will be weeping so loud you’ll hear it in space.
“SHOOTING AN UNARMED WOMAN, DEAD?”
If you’re at work, an angry mob threatening to kill someone inside shatters a window, someone crawls through and you have a gun…..do you shoot?
No.
“Wait! Let me trade out for rubber bullets!”
What a fucking joke, Caradoc.
Totally Justified and the shooter got precisely the correct person if one had to make a choice.
This woman promised 1776 again Thanks to link by Sechel. I added three points to article.
She was unarmed. Shouted words carry more weight than a human life and justify this action? Its not right.
How did the officer know she or anyone else was unarmed? “Excuse me officer. I’m going to illegally break into a secure government facility to voice “my right” to protest. I am unarmed but I can’t vouch from my fellow rioters so take your chances, I’m taking mine.” Not to mention that the Capital had the Electoral Certification documents and almost certainly classified information. Concerning classified info I am guessing that deadly force is authorized to protect it, especially top secret.
Now another officer commits suicide.
This was not a coup, or insurrection. A riot by a bunch of misfits.
No warning shots? Just shoot to kill on the first shot? Someone unarmed, not directly threatening the officer as is typically required for this type of shooting? And someone clearly without a weapon? Yes, disproportionate force was used.
Now the right has their George Floyd martyr.
As for two systems of justice, when will we see Corporations giving millions to MAGA, journalists agreeing riots are needed for social change, or congressmen kneeling in their honor?
Mish, you may not think there was election fraud and I don’t think there was; at least not on the scale Trump the MAGA crowd says, but at a minimum the legitimate concerns should have been offered and investigation. And there were many legitimate concerns.
Damn right, shoot to kill while defending an illegal assult by a mob on the government edifice containing virtually all of leading politicians.
Later this month, you had better believe there will be a large number of armed, ready to shoot to kill feds on hand for the inauguration.
By most standards of civilized nations, the degree of force was excessive. At least by our standards it was. She had no weapon and hell bent on property destruction and had at no time threatened the office. Hardly worth a death sentence. But we see cops over react all the time; this is no different and he should not and will not be punished.
Back tracked on the fraud, eh?
As far as being outraged by the use of force – the police were completely overwhelmed and had retreated to inside the building and were only tenuously holding certain areas in that building. No way was this anything but justified under those circumstances.
so i can break into your house
and while you search me to determine if i am armed or not
i can continue to enter
btw … Ashli Babbitt wasn’t just a woman … she was a Lady, maybe even a stable genius.
do you at all recognize your illness … and how it affects your rendering of realilty ?
Oh FFS snoozinjoe is FactsOnJoe.
Trump’s Department of Defense is labeling this a first amendment protest. having watched the video that description is laughable.
Frenetically searching the Constitution’s 1rst amendment allowance for physical attacks, property destruction, murder & threats of murder….or maybe it’s somewhere in the 2nd amendment that apparently gives us the right to bear arms solely for the purpose of overthrowing government when we don’t like who has won an election…..still looking….still looking…
When did the Department of Defense have anything to do with labeling it? That’s for the department of “Justice” (sic)
it was a planning memo
The military said they wouldn’t get involved in the election process. They didn’t say anything about enforcing results which made me nervous. My money was on them having to show up at some point. So here we are… Let’s hope this conspiracy shit ends. DT was supposed to be bringing down the cabal. So where are all the prosecutions? Idiots…
“After all these years he could at least post my comments and tell me what he disagreed with and why.”
I have no idea what Truthseeker is even talking about. I was editing images all night and if anything was removed a spam filter got it.
Now that I have a post out today, I will see if I can find what he is complaining about.
Do more economic posts such as capital flight we are starting to see out of the U.S. now. How low will the dollar go?
Mish and the commentators are all correct. HOWEVER,
when 50% of the population have no apparent standing in court…
and when 50% of the population have no apparent positive visibility in the public press….
then I would urge all parties to be very careful.
the lacked standing, law and facts. let’s be clear. they had nothing on their side except a belief in a set of lies.
they lacked standing….
‘……they lacked standing’. Not here to argue facts….only the consequences. The consequences could render ‘facts’ irrelevant.
Plentynof people to be rendered irrelevant … their life insurance policies too.
they lacked standing in some courts but argued in other courts. more than a few judges in dismissing the case specifically spoke to the facts and law not supporting the allegations. interestingly enough in court the lawyers refused to utter “election fraud” because they know the penalty of uttering false statements in court and they had no proof. there’s this pesky thing known as rule 11 sanctions and lawyers committing perjury in court. judges hate it
Under 11 the most they would get is cost to file and attorneys fees. It is rarely assessed because in civil hearings it is subjective. The video in Georgia where the election chair stopped count and sent observers home and counting resumed shortly there after without observers after they pulled bins of ballots from beneath a cloth draped folding table. Georgia’s law requires observers to view the count. That being against their election laws making it fraudulent and the root of that is fraud or election fraud. Now the perjury thing is patently absurd. Attorneys are not sworn and you cannot perjure yourself unless you are testifying under oath. Try again spanky. Where’d you get that law degree out of a box of craker-jacks.
You, of course, have some sort of evidence of what you just alleged – right? Right? You know – evidence that would be presented to a judge. In court. In the course of pursuing a lawsuit.
You have that, right?
And, BTW, the evidence is not just “I heard a guy say…” type of thing – right?
And when 50% of the population believes in fiction and when in court presents no evidence and resorts to violence … BRING IT THE FUCK ON.
Fiction is not entertained in court.
I’m going to agree with that. If you attack half the nation demeaning their choice for president dismiss them as hayseeds and insult and deride them while demonizing law enforcement our border sovereignty and attack the capital in much the same fashion as just happened threatening lawmakers who were voting on a supreme court nomination sooner or later something is going to snap. And if you think it’s bad now keep pushing and see what happens.
The officers should have been given rubber bullets, tear gas to manage the mob, and support from other agencies. Leadership CHOSE to let this mob into the property.
the officer were outnumbered. they had insufficient bodies and equipment to do the job. this was a huge intelligence failure but don’t blame the officers. these guys were heros. their actions saved the lives of legislators who were at risk of being killed by an angry mob
officers
I’m not sure they are all heroes. There needs to be an investigation as to whether some of them were on the side of the insurrectionists.
ANTIFA is not an organized group in the way proud boys and boogaloo boys are. they are simply the boogeyman of the far right.
…just an idea?
Antifa is not a highly organized movement, nor is it merely an idea. Antifa is a loose affiliation of local activists scattered across the United States and a few other countries.
“Despite the media portrayal of a deranged, bloodthirsty antifa… the vast majority of anti-fascist tactics involve no physical violence whatsoever. Anti-fascists conduct research on the far right online, in person, and sometimes through infiltrations; they dox them, push central milieux to disown them, pressure bosses to fire them…
“But it’s also true that some of them punch Nazis in the face and don’t apologize for it.”
They say words matter. And that’s clearly true. Defenders of Donald Trump claim he bears no responsibility, that everyone’s an adult. I don’t agree. He’s an authority figure and not just any authority figure. He’s the President, the most powerful man in the country. He has to know or should know that not every man and woman listening to him is able to fully able to act and think responsibly. What Trump did in encouraging sedition was plain irresponsible. I’m guarding my language. If unrestrained I would say a lot more.
She fucked around and found out.
A repeat attempt at insurrection will result in many more such people.
Can we start shooting people who declare “autonomous zones” in major US cities? No? Oh, right, wrong political side.
The current DOJ has zero credibility. Donald Trump has completely politicized and weaponized it. It’s really sad. We are back to Nixon era, maybe worse. All the work Edward Levi performed was undone by Trump and Barr.
As far as Ashli Babbitt. She embraced QAnon. Many had no idea what they were doing there and believed they would get new orders once they got to their target. This is Jim Jones level cult stuff.
Holder is mah wingman selling military grade rifles to the mexican drug cartels lied about it and then pled the 5th. Yeah I doubt Trump was the first to weaponize the AG and guess what he won’t be the last.