Here’s the answer from Elon Musk’s Grok.
Temporarily Blocked
The Wall Street Journal reports Judge Temporarily Blocks Move to Fire Federal Employees During Shutdown
A federal judge temporarily blocked the Trump administration from moving ahead with mass firings of federal employees while the government is shut down.
Judge Susan Illston issued the temporary restraining order in a ruling from the bench on Wednesday, stopping the government from cutting federal workers at multiple agencies.
The Trump administration moved ahead on threats last week to lay off federal workers, sending reductions in force notices, otherwise known as RIFs, to about 4,000 employees at more than a half-dozen federal agencies, including the departments of Treasury, Health and Human Services, Education and Commerce.
President Trump has referred to the cuts as “Democrat-oriented” and has been seeking to increase pressure on Democrats to end the standoff in Congress over government funding. The shutdown started Oct. 1.
“Ordering any employee to work during a shutdown to administer a RIF process would directly violate the Antideficiency Act,” said attorneys for the American Federation of Government Employees and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. The Antideficiency Act requires agencies to cease most operations during a government shutdown, with only a few exceptions.
After OMB Director Russell Vought announced in an Oct. 10 social-media post that the RIFs had begun, the labor unions asked Illston to immediately stop the administration from implementing any notices during the shutdown.
Vought said in an interview Wednesday with “The Charlie Kirk Show” earlier in the day that the administration planned to increase the number of layoffs to more than 10,000.
“It will get much higher. We’re going to keep those RIFs rolling throughout this shutdown because we think it’s important to stay on offense for the American taxpayer and the American people,” Vought said.
Illston ordered the Trump administration to file a detailed accounting of all RIFs, actual or imminent, that are now blocked by her temporary restraining order, as well as the steps it has taken to comply with her ruling.
A Conversation with Grok
Mish: Does the The Antideficiency Act (ADA) prohibit firing of federal employees in the government shutdown?
Grok: Yes, the Antideficiency Act (ADA), codified at 31 U.S.C. §§ 1341–1342 and 1511–1519, effectively prohibits firing federal employees during a government shutdown, as it bans obligating or expending federal funds in excess of available appropriations.
Key Provisions and Reasoning
- Core Prohibition: The ADA forbids federal agencies from making expenditures or creating obligations (e.g., contracts, salaries) without congressional appropriations. During a shutdown, non-essential functions halt because funding lapses, leaving agencies unable to commit to future payments.
- Application to Personnel Actions: Firing an employee creates a legal obligation for severance, unemployment benefits, or potential back pay if the termination is challenged (e.g., via appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board or court). Courts and the Government Accountability Office (GAO) have ruled that such actions violate the ADA if they risk unappropriated expenditures. For instance:
- GAO decisions (e.g., B-323505, 2011) clarify that personnel actions like reductions in force (RIFs) or terminations during funding gaps are impermissible if they involve obligations payable from lapsed appropriations.
- The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) guidance during shutdowns (e.g., 2018–2019 and 2023) instructs agencies to furlough non-essential employees without pay but retain them on the rolls, explicitly avoiding firings to prevent ADA violations.
- Furlough vs. Firing: Employees are placed on furlough (administrative leave without pay), which is reversible once funding resumes. Firing severs the employment relationship, triggering costs that can’t be obligated without funds, as affirmed in precedents like United States v. Mitchell (1982), where the Supreme Court upheld ADA’s strict limits on unappropriated obligations.
- Exceptions: Essential employees (e.g., those funded by multi-year or no-year appropriations, like military or disaster response) continue working and can’t be fired under shutdown rules. Voluntary separations (e.g., resignations) are allowed, but involuntary firings are not.
Historical Evidence
- In the 2013 and 2018–2019 shutdowns, agencies like the Department of Defense and IRS furloughed hundreds of thousands but issued no mass firings, per OPM reports and congressional oversight.
- Violations can lead to personal liability for officials (fines up to $5,000 and imprisonment), deterring such actions—e.g., a 1980s case where NASA officials were penalized for improper obligations.
This interpretation is standard across executive branch guidance, GAO rulings, and legal analyses from sources like the Congressional Research Service (CRS Report R41759). Firing would undermine Congress’s “power of the purse” under Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution, which the ADA enforces.
The howls about activist judges will surface again because Judge Susan Illston was nominated by President Bill Clinton.
I don’t care about ad hominem attacks. Grok laid out a very good case and I will go with that.
What we want to happen is irrelevant. The law is what matters, and should matter.
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Has everyone in the administration gone mad?
Trump has little regard for the Constitution. He wants to be king and acts like he is.
Meh, it’s called “garden leave.” You give sufficient notice and the severence they will get as back pay will flow when normal funds are appropriated.
Hi mish, been a bubble since I said anything. I believe the SCOTUS has held the executive branch can fire any employee at will. Which is as it should be.
This is more of Democrats protecting turf but ignoring separation of powers.
A lot of that stuff is untested and the recent cases would say that law isn’t valid.
Seems kind of chickenshit to fire people when they’re not around.
Hi, Mish, this rule of Law B.S., from anyone who falls for it, only applies to US, not THEM.
Money will exchange hands. Judges are on the take, too, right?
The entire system is based upon deal-making – – no matter the effect on those who elect them.
Elections are a sham of never-to-be-kept promises and now we are starting the Clown-show where they act like we MATTER.
When considering whether a decision is wrong or right it’s critical to look at the procedural context.
the judge issued a 2 week TRO. it’s holding things as they were while a preliminary injunction motion is being prepped (which itself isn’t permanent, but has a higher standard). she didn’t decide the issue permanently.
TRO is a balancing act between likelihood of success on the merit and the harm that would result if it’s not granted, and the more harmful the less merit there has to be. the movants submitted ecidence about what happens when federal employees in agriculture, head start office, HHS, don’t have resources using historical examples.
so all teh analysis of whether this statute allows it or doesn’t is not the issue that the judge looked at, or at least it was just part of the analysis to decide the motion before the court.
So, we can’t pay them and can’t fire them? Ok…
They are on paid vacays!
everything the demented egomaniac does is illegal.
Give me that list of Legal stuff that Biden rolled out (OH, I mean his HANDLERS ROLLED OUT). Give me that hard-hitting list.
We see your inability to even launch a real defense of Trump’s actions.
Thank god for Susan IIliston. Great verdict.
Executive authority resides with POTUS. No judicial overreach after recent SC ruling.
Just during that SCOTUS ruling
Still waiting for a mea culpa for all the times you have been WRONG on the legality of Trump’s action. Almost every case you have lost your head on was reversed by the S Court.
As far as Grok goes, do you know that lawyers have been sanction for copy and pasting from AI research because the AI software cited authorities that don’t exist and the answer was wrong. None of the cites included in your Grok could could be found other than CRS Report R41759 which is nothing more than a collection of historical papers.
Here is what Goggle’s AI research says:
“Legal Framework for RIFs
Permissible Reasons for RIFs: The ADA does not explicitly bar RIFs during a shutdown. Courts may uphold that a lack of appropriations can justify RIFs if agencies argue that budget constraints necessitate workforce reductions.
Excepted Activities: The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) has classified certain activities, including RIF planning, as “excepted.” This means that agencies can continue these activities even during a lapse in appropriations, which allows them to proceed with RIFs.”
The answer you get from AI depends on how you frame the question. You should run a question through different AI software and phrase your question in different ways, including in the negative, then lookup the cites to see if they exist and if they say what the AI software says they say if you want to post honest information.
Finally not all employees are entitled to severance (less than 12 months of employment, or fired for cause). Do we know if the reduction in force went only to employees who worked less than 12 months or were fired for cause? Most employees furloughed are entitled to unemployment benefits despite the ADA, so that is not a reason to enjoin RIFs.
But I get it, you want to dump on the Trump administration before you have any clue whether it acted properly or not
For starters I have been wrong very little.
Second I have admitted when I have been wrong.
Third I have on many occasions cheered Trump’s actions.
I say when I agree or disagree.
Fourth, you are a troll
Calling it a Troll is a promotion.
I’m still waiting for deepstate guy to launch his own rival blog, since he apparently is so much better at it, LMFAO
Mish,
Let’s talk about the ADA a little more. Trump ordered Dept. of War (DoW) to find funds to pay military servicemembers. Over this past weekend, funding that was being used to pay exempted DoW employees at Wright Patterson AFB was taken to pay military servicemembers. Those exempted civilian employees were given a furlough notice yesterday and then were directed to code their timecards for the 05-18 October pay period as “KE,” which is the code used to indicate furlough. However, these employees had worked October 6-10, were entitled to holiday pay for Columbus Day, and worked 14 Oct and part of 15 Oct. Why were the employees ordered to retroactively code their timecards as KE back to 05 Oct? Because the money that would’ve been used to pay them on 24 October for the 5-18 Oct pay period is gone…taken to pay military members. Ordering these employees to falsify their timecards is illegal, and ordering supervisors to certify those falsified timecards is illegal. Some Air Force people are about to be in violation of ADA, which is a criminal violation.
A better question is what these layoffs have to do with the shutdown at all, besides creating hostages for leverage. The administration’s arguments here are complete non sequiturs. This is just pure abuse of the RIF procedure.
Yeah looks like trump has no problem on punishing dem voters for voting dem. I worry about the voting info the states turned over to his administration. Combined. With what doge acquired who knows how it could be used against average citizens. .
Trump is “not quite right”. Strategic Monetary Gifting will end all of the folly and controversy about the “national debt”, resolve our deepest economic problems and rejuvenate profit-making economic systems.
are we still playing the game, “but they can’t do that !” ?
a body of law never to be recovered
Yes, Grok made good arguments. Additionally Grok could have referred
to 5 U.S.C subsection 5595 which codifies severance to Federal employees laid off.
Trump’s best argument is the Anti-deficiency Act (ADA) and Government Employee Fair Treatment Act of 2019 (GEFTA) contradict each other because back pay (required by GEFTA) is an obligation just as much as severance (prohibited during a shutdown by ADA).
With strong precedence, ADA should prevail; therefore, GEFTA would be struck down. Federal employees would then be exposed to unpaid furlough, which is still a savings to the taxpayer.
GEFTA specifically states “when funds become available” it doesn’t voilate the ADA nor does it obligate funds.
“When funds become available” generally implies a debt or obligation has been created. The case could be made that once the government reopens, Congress could retroactively terminate employees without furlough backpay, but appropriate severance pay under a new spending bill.
Firing people “triggers costs”? I mean, I guess. Seems like a stretch. There are probably reasons Trump can’t fire people willing nilly, but there has to be a better reason than “firing raises costs”.
I think i saw where he or the republicans passed the law in question during the last shut down
You know what else violates the Antideficiency Act (ADA)? Using military R&D funds to pay military salaries. It is unlawful to use funds appropriated for a specific purpose for any other purpose without Congressional approval. Defense funds are appropriated in chunks…R&D, Operations and Maintenace, Salaries and Benefits, etc. Trump is violating the “color of money” aspect of the ADA.
Democrats know this, but won’t touch it with a ten foot pole due to the political fallout.
The federal employees who are ‘lucky’ enough to keep their jobs are getting a 1% raise next year, and that raise will be based on just their base pay, not locality pay, which will remain the same.
However, everyone in the military or any federal employee involved in defense or law enforcement is getting a 3.8% raise.
The elite know it’s important to take care of the ones protecting them.
Trump is literally getting more and more out of control. My experience/thinking on this is if you let something get out of hand the situation gets worse and worse until they somehow go so far over the lind that (stupid) synchophants even quit enabling.
Yes – correct ruling! Not only legally but morally as it’s a retaliatory move: Trump has publicly stated that fed employees being laid off during the October 2025 govt shutdown are largely “Democrat-oriented,” & he has used the shutdown as a stated opportunity to target and eliminate what he calls “Democrat programs”. On Oct 14th Trump told a Cabinet meeting, “We’re only cutting Democrat programs,” adding that Democrats would “get a little taste of their own medicine”.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Just wait till democrats take control and start eliminating red state jobs and subsidies. I hope they start with farm subsidies.
That is never going to happen. Thanks to gerrymandering the Democrats will never control the House again.
The Democrats are likely to take the House at the next midterms.
And when it comes to gerrymandering, Democrats are experts. Look at IL and CA.
“The Democrats are likely to take the House at the next midterms.”
Outside a recession, good luck!
Dem gerrymandering . . . BOOM!
Supreme Court Signals Openness to Scaling Back Voting Rights Act – WSJ
All future elections will be rigged. The democrats will exist only as a bogeyman to frighten the tender trumplings.
Mish i agree with dems gerrymander to. I think at this point everyone is going full on. In that case the republicans will come out on top. Imo the more it is skewed to one side(rep in this case) the more disgruntled voters it takes to make a change. Hope im wrong maybe it gets so bad everyone says enough is enough and makes some sort of change for the better. I doubt it will be the republicans leading the charge.
Trump is gear in the republican machine. Surrounded by the project 25 crowd and finically back by the ultra wealthy. Its amazing how the average republican will continue to vote against their own interest. Worried about the slim chance they will have to use a public bathroom with some dude in a dress.
Anyway i ramble. Thank you for your site.
Poor Michael Madigan. For decades he hand painted the Illinois legislative district boundaries like Rembrandt for the same team that just put him in prison.
That’s fine, love to see Governor Fat@$$ campaigning in Arcola and Tuscola on an Amish cart.
There are no shortages of Canadian geese and that’s goes even hundreds of miles from the border.
haven’t they been tariffed as meat or fowl imports?
The Trump Treasury just shipped $20 billion offshore to prop up the Argentine regime and currency. This rescues Argentine soybean farmers selling exclusively to China. Trump is therefore subsidizing foreign farmers and China. So this is an anti-subsidy for US farmers, with US taxpayers’ cash, done to support a Trump sycophant’s otherwise-sinking regime. The fear in Trumpville, I speculate, is that a visible left counter-move in the Americas could signal a pendulum swing among other masses. Winning!
Just a favor from one dictator to another.
Both were democratically elected.