What we could have done differently is obvious. Get citizens out before the military leaves. The current admin says they couldn’t do it because people refused to leave. It was their right to stay. Nonsense. if we can dictate that children have to wear masks for their safety, we can dictate Americans have to leave the country for their safety.
Webej
2 years ago
Still not seeing what was so terrible about Trump’s deal.
Any deal is based on good will and vague promises, and seems preferable to unilateral actions.
The time table was stymied by the intel services and their Russian bounties hoaxes and other subversions, as in Syria.
Any exit could have drawn up evacuation plans long before actually withdrawing forces, and could have been accomplished largely without depending on Taliban cooperation.
Agreed. Especially about the internecine subversions by those very same groups that are blamed for the start of this whole fiasco in the first place. It seems like Shedlock is once again overly fixated on bashing Trump. Seen another way, the critical element was the initial decision to leave and starting that process rolling. If Trump hadn’t opened the door would Biden have done it? Who knows?
On the one hand Shedlock praises Biden for the mess of the last few inches of the pull out but at the same time tries to paint Trump as an incompetent buffoon with respect to his “deal” which started the process. Why? Because Trump can be a blowhard about his own deal making abilities?
I couldn’t agree more. The praising of Biden for the loss of life he has directly caused is baffling, especially from a guy who is usually fairly even-handed and intelligent (at least on economics – unfortunately I can’t say that anymore about the politics content).
And yes, he does seem to be obsessed with bashing Trump. The quickest way to ruin a sound approach to economics and investing is to become overly emotionally obsessed (positive or negative) with a political angle. I’m coming here less and less frequently, unfortunately.
Mish referring to Biden: “But despite making a huge mess of the exit…” Mish did not praise Biden for the exit mess, just for the final act of actually pulling the last of the troops out.
I suppose in my comments I’m extending to refer to Shedlock’s overall coverage of this whole affair – at least as I see it – beginning with the “Credit Biden with a Brilliant Speech” article. I also found his discussion some time ago about Trump’s record on war to be disingenuous.
To me it seems like the praise is overly exaggerated in favor of the last inning as compared to that of the first five. I can’t help but think it’s just personal bias.
Biden was the only one who ultimately accomplished what matters: “He” got the heck out of there.
Anything else, absolutely anything else, is just continued slow boiling of America by yet another means.
Call_Me
2 years ago
“Indeed, we should have declared success, mission over, and left.”
Ah yes, unfurling a ‘Mission Accomplished’ banner would have been an important step for things to be done right. Something is a success if it is declared to be so!
Mish, I still say you and others are being too quick to declare that the U.S. is exiting the country. The current administration is still droning children to death and vowing revenge, so it is premature to state that the end of the 20-year quagmire is nigh.
You may well be right. But thus far, Biden has still done the right thing.
I’m still cautiously optimistic that he, in all his glorious senility, is still sufficiently stuck i the 80s (with that senile “colleague” of his…) that he recognizes there are only ever two sides in Afghanistan invasions: The side of the invader, and the winning side. If the current clownocrats really believe China is some sort of “threat”, the only Afghanistan policy, aside from the ideal one of 100% complete neglect, is one which aim to place China on the invading side, and “us” on the winning one.
If nothing else: More cool kit for God fearing, gun toting, pickup truck driving militia men, is always a good thing. Here, there and everywhere.
It has been argued that the Soviets would have been successful if the U.S. hadn’t been supplying arms and funding to the other side – certainly they would have come closer to ‘success’.
We’ll see what happens with only the mercenaries in place, but as of today it feels like the groundwork for a humanitarian crisis is being laid and the need for engagement by active military will return – something beyond drones, that is.
Based on your handle, I am wondering if you returned from a hiatus. If so, welcome back. There is noticeably more chaff ’round these parts (although that is probably true in a lot of places)
LawrenceBird
2 years ago
The initial critical failure was with Bush/Rumsfeld not being willing to find a way to incorporate the Taliban/Pashtuns better into the new Afghan government. As to Biden, I’m really not sure what he could have done any differently. If he failed to get out it would have required at least 50K, probably 100K troops to be sent to the country as the Taliban would now be targeting the US presence, not just Afghan forces. 3500 troops at Baghram would not hold out very long. The back story on the airlift is that the US wanted to start it right away but the Afghan government insisted that would lead to collapse. So damned if you do and damned if you dont.
“The initial critical failure was with Bush/Rumsfeld not being willing to find a way to incorporate the Taliban/Pashtuns better into the new Afghan government.”
The Taliban have standards. Which makes them completely incompatible with any Vichy state the dead and decaying West would ever be OK with.
Rumsfeld et al’s idea of a Afghan government, was the former Afghan government: A bunch of puppets OK with spouting mindless progressive drivel, as long as they were provided unlimited access to steal all they could get their hands on. From both Afghans and American taxpayers.
whirlaway
2 years ago
Biden’s poor handling of the exit process is deliberate. It gives a perfect excuse for not bringing large numbers of Afghans back to US, people who helped the US during the occupation and whose lives are now in grave danger. It is politically not an advantage for Biden and his party to bring their Afghan allies as refugees to the US, as the Republicans would accuse them of letting in “terrorists”.
This is about the reason *why* Biden did whatever he did. It is clear he wants to avoid the political fall-out of getting large numbers of Afghan refugees. And a botched exit is a good excuse for keeping that number as low as possible.
Bungalow Bill
2 years ago
When you look at all these Trump deals from the NAFTA update deal to this, it has always been clear to me Trump is a man who knows how to project an image and sell everything he touches is the best when the truth is something far different.
Like all the childbrained so called “leaders”, in both “public” and “private” sectors in our fully financialized dystopia: He’s good at playing office. At regurgitating mindless jargon and punchlines which the stupid and well indoctrinated have been told is what great dear leaders say. And that’s also absolutely all that he, like any of the Fed-welfare dependent dunces are “good” at.
Doug78
2 years ago
I am sure that had we all or for that matter any of us had
been in power the withdraw from Afghanistan would have gone seamlessly better
than it actually did and I for one want to thank ourselves for our incredibly accurate
and insightful hindsight.
Let’s take another track that deviates from the CNNesque analysis.
The monetary cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars is estimated to be something
like $6 trillion however these estimates take into account projected interest
costs since the money was borrowed and pension benefits for veterans. First of
all interest costs are negative now and with a large military pensions would
have to be paid war or not so this widely circulated number is off by a good amount but nevertheless generates
clicks because it confirms what most people want to believe.
If we count up the direct costs it comes to around $2 trillion
which is still a lot of money but how was this money spent? It was spent on
military equipment and military personnel salaries and training. Much was also
spent on civilian salaries of all those who get contracts to study this and
that and whatever and who are surprisingly very well paid. Just about all the
military equipment is made inside the US by American workers. Most of military personnel
salaries are also spent within the US. Most of the civilian contractors spend
their money within the country as well. Consequently from an economic point of
view these wars have been a stimulus and a generator of many high-paying manufacturing,
research and service jobs especially in areas like the West coast and the Washington
area. Most of that $2 trillion in direct costs were spent in the US and not in
Iraq and Afghanistan and explains why we were able to sustain it year after
year as well as explaining why although deploring it so many in Congress felt
little pressure to end it because it was very lucrative.
The $6 trillion comes from the estimated $4 trillion is
interest on the $2 trillion borrowed going out to 2050 and we all know that the
real cost depends on inflation and real interest rates and in my opinion is
impossible to calculate.
The human cost is different of course but before coming on
with the expected emotional response please understand that I am very well
aware of those costs in ways most of you would not understand.
As for our position in the world nothing fundamental has
changed. George Friedman explains it very well here in this short podcast.
Good podcast. Good perspective. Fielding equipment also allows all those researchers and contractors to prove out new weapons/designs. Creating high-tech, high paying jobs is good too. You can’t solve poverty by giving away money. You need something in return and high-tech can open new fields of study, new industries, and new products/services which raises our standard of living. If the war was initially justified, as suggested in the podcast, I think we all can agree it was just too long. I do worry about China though who might think they can advantage of America’s discontent and behave more like the Russians taking the Crimea and Ukraine.
The beginning was justified vengence. That is a universal concept understood by all cultures. Iraq was not. Iraq was an experiment that turned bad. As for Russia they did gain the Crimea but at the cost of making a mortal enemy of the Ukraine and Russia without the Ukraine is no longer a great power.
You’re not somehow better off by paying someone a million to dig a bottomless ditch, than you are if the ditch dug itself and you instead just threw the money in there. You have to also take into consideration the cost of all the hours of useful work, which did not get performed by those instead stuck digging your ditch for you.
The trillions spent, were spent on nothing useful (minus possibly some tech improvement. But even then, all that effort could otherwise be spent on improvement to tech more useful than building bomb craters and invalids halfway around the world. Still, given how dysfunctional civilian once-was industry is in the US, the military and MIC may, by now, add a smidgen more net value than having it wasted on battery cars and the like…).
Nothing useful, is not made somehow more useful, by taking Americans away from useful tasks, than by taking anyone else. Those trillions represents X hours of otherwise useful activity (or would have, if America was a free country allocating resources efficiently) which was instead bid away to instead engage in complete waste (at best). Hence were completely lost. Simply “following the money” like an accountant, like all the rest of Keynesianism, Monetarism and the other charlatanisms attempted passed of as “economics” in the DumbAge, as usual fails to see Bastiat’s unseen: All the otherwise useful activity which was NOT performed by those who were bid away to perform pure waste instead.
It all depends on how one defines useful. Keep in mind that Americans spend over $100 billion on pet care each year so that $2 trillion spent on Afghanistan and Iraq over twenty years represents 20 years of pet care costs. Cats do nothing but look cool and 95% of the dogs couldn’t herd sheep, hunt or protect your house if their lives depended on it. What is worth being protected from the bad people out there? As for taking Americans from doing other useful tasks I ask you what worth is an internet influencer or a telemarketer? Much of what people work at are not necessary nor useful to society as a whole. Efficient allocations of resources is a myth unless you beleive that cat video production which is enormous has any real value yet the market allocates resources to it.
Tengen
2 years ago
I always cringe when seeing comments from Bari Weiss. She was more of a neocon than most of her colleagues at the WSJ and NYT, which is really saying something.
Kick’n
2 years ago
Saw Rummie on Charlie Rose once. He was never apologetic. Never questioned his decisions. Sure signs of a narcissist. Churchill understood the Middle East. Ironically Bush had a BA in history. But by his own admission a “C” student. Also, the only president to have obtained an MBA. We could use a president who has actually served in combat and understands its the measure of last resort. Terrorists knew where to hit us; right in the pocketbook. These centuries old cultures are playing the long game. We’re not even a culture. We’re an idea called democracy bound by laws but not beliefs, customs, or traditions. But we are the land of milk and honey, if you can afford milk and honey…
Jmurr
2 years ago
Trump’s surrender deal did result in a ceasefire where no American military personnel was killed for an extended period of time.
The further American military personnel are removed from conflict with those guys, the fewer of them will die.
TexasTim65
2 years ago
Mish, I think the word subtle in this “The Patriot Act weakened Constitutional protections for individuals
and the rise a subtle surveillance state (as Edward Snowden first
exposed). ” under sells things quite a bit. It’s not a subtle surveillance state we live in now. It’s an all encompassing one that not even 1984 could have imagined.
Eddie_T
2 years ago
The movie Vice nailed Rummie perfectly with this scene.
Cheney and Rumsfeld both are going to be seen through the lens of history as the real bad guys in this continuing saga. Bush was a cut-out poster boy for Cheney, and Rumsfeld taught Cheney everything he ever knew…..that he didn’t learn from his wife Lynn.
We’re way too good at getting into these fine messes, and our exits are always only made when things have gotten so bad that there are no good options.
Why didn’t we learn this from Vietnam? It’s the same script.
Even Robert Effin’ McNamara figured it out before he took the dirt nap. Too bad Bush and Cheney knew about as much history as my Blue Heeler does. We are doomed to forever repeat our past mistakes because we have the attention span of gnats, and a knowledge of history equivalent to that of an iPhone obsessed Gen Z high schooler.
I don’t think Bush was bright enough to realize what Cheney and Rumsfeld were leading him and the US into. I remember at the time of his election in 2000 he had barely been out of the country (I think to Mexico on vacation a couple of times). He literally knew nothing of foreign policy and a few months into his 1st term 9/11 happened and he was in way over his head once those 2 started whispering into his ear about the need for invasions.
Millions of voters who were dumber than Bush put their religious beliefs ahead of their economic interests in 2000. In 2004, they doubled up and gave him a bigger majority. But one doesn’t have to pass a civics test (except to qualify for citizenship) in order to vote.
“But one doesn’t have to pass a civics test (except to qualify for citizenship) in order to vote.”
Which is why the founders realized that the only state fit for a Democracy, is one small enough that the inevitable clowns in charge, couldn’t do much damage even if they wanted to.
The only army being one of regular Joe militiamen bringing kit they bought at the local gunshop (if they feel the fight was worth it), being a good example. No Fed, no income taxes, and precious few other taxes, being others. Ditto a revolution a generation. Just to ensure the leeches never got too entrenched and comfortable. Keep to those limitations, necessary ones for a civilized society, and government, even in the US, need not have been so bad.
Of course, following generations didn’t keep to them. So here we are. Waiting for the Taliban, and similars, to clean up the mess.
Going into Afghanistan in the first place was necessary. Iraq was not. Staying in Afghanistan past 2004 was not. Unforunately, it took Bush until 2006(?) to replace Rumsfeld with Gates who was at the least a realist about the situation(s).
I am sure that had we all or for that matter any of us had
been in power the withdraw from Afghanistan would have gone seamlessly better
than it actually did and I for one want to thank ourselves for our incredibly accurate
and insightful hindsight.
Let’s take another track that deviates from the CNNesque analysis.
The monetary cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars is estimated to be something
like $6 trillion however these estimates take into account projected interest
costs since the money was borrowed and pension benefits for veterans. First of
all interest costs are negative now and with a large military pensions would
have to be paid war or not so this widely circulated number is off by a good amount but nevertheless generates
clicks because it confirms what most people want to believe.
If we count up the direct costs it comes to around $2 trillion
which is still a lot of money but how was this money spent? It was spent on
military equipment and military personnel salaries and training. Much was also
spent on civilian salaries of all those who get contracts to study this and
that and whatever and who are surprisingly very well paid. Just about all the
military equipment is made inside the US by American workers. Most of military personnel
salaries are also spent within the US. Most of the civilian contractors spend
their money within the country as well. Consequently from an economic point of
view these wars have been a stimulus and a generator of many high-paying manufacturing,
research and service jobs especially in areas like the West coast and the Washington
area. Most of that $2 trillion in direct costs were spent in the US and not in
Iraq and Afghanistan and explains why we were able to sustain it year after
year as well as explaining why although deploring it so many in Congress felt
little pressure to end it because it was very lucrative.
The $6 trillion comes from the estimated $4 trillion is
interest on the $2 trillion borrowed going out to 2050 and we all know that the
real cost depends on inflation and real interest rates and in my opinion is
impossible to calculate.
The human cost is different of course but before coming on
with the expected emotional response please understand that I am very well
aware of those costs in ways most of you would not understand.
As for our position in the world nothing fundamental has
changed. George Friedman explains it very well here in this short podcast.
link to geopoliticalfutures.com
and the rise a subtle surveillance state (as Edward Snowden first
exposed). ” under sells things quite a bit. It’s not a subtle surveillance state we live in now. It’s an all encompassing one that not even 1984 could have imagined.