What percentage of all income tax collection should the top 1 percent pay? Top 10 percent? 
Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data
Inquiring minds may wish to peruse a Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2024 Update by the Tax Foundation.
I downloaded their data and created all but one of the charts in this post. The Foundation calls it the 2024 update but the latest data is for 2021.
The bottom half of taxpayers, or taxpayers making under $46,637, faced an average income tax rate of 3.3 percent. As household income increases, average income tax rates rise. For example, taxpayers with AGI between the 10th and 5th percentiles ($169,800 and $252,840) paid an average income tax rate of 14.3 percent—four times the rate paid by taxpayers in the bottom half.
The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI of $682,577 and above) paid the highest average income tax rate of 25.93 percent—nearly eight times the rate faced by the bottom half of taxpayers.
Income tax after credits (the measure of “income taxes paid” above) does not account for the refundable portion of tax credits such as the EITC. If the refundable portion were included, the tax share of the top income groups would be higher and the average tax rate of bottom income groups would be lower. The refundable portion is classified as a spending program by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and therefore is not included by the IRS in these figures.
The only tax analyzed here is the federal individual income tax, which is responsible for more than 25 percent of the nation’s taxes paid (at all levels of government). Federal income taxes are much more progressive than federal payroll taxes, which are responsible for about 20 percent of all taxes paid (at all levels of government), and are more progressive than most state and local taxes.
AGI is a fairly narrow income concept and does not include income items like government transfers (except for the portion of Social Security benefits that is taxed), the value of employer-provided health insurance, underreported or unreported income (most notably that of sole proprietors), income derived from municipal bond interest, net imputed rental income, and others.
Average Income Taxes Paid 2024
The top 1 percent pay an average of $653,730 in Federal income taxes. The top 10 percent pay an average of $108,251 in Federal income taxes.
The Tax Foundation reports the bottom 50 percent pay an average of $667 but that is overstated.
Counting child tax credits, earned income, food stamps, and rent support, the bottom 50 percent pay negative taxes. They get much more back than they put in.
Income Taxes Paid Millions 2024
The top 1 percent contribute over $1 trillion annually. That is nearly half of what the top 50 percent contribute.
The bottom 50 percent allegedly contribute $51 billion except in practice as noted above they actually pay negative income tax.
Average Tax Rate
For all the whining about how little the top pay, on average that just isn’t true.
Warren Buffet is fond of saying his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does, but that is the exception (depending on how much he pays her).
Bear in mind these are Federal Income taxes. There are also state income taxes, payroll taxes, capital gains, etc.
Rising Fair Share
That’s a bonus chart courtesy of the Tax Foundation. It shows that the share of income taxes paid by the top 1 percent increased from 33.2 percent in 2001 to 45.8 percent in 2021.
2021 was heavily influenced by the pandemic which affected lower paid employees more.
Given the bottom half gets money back, and collections and there are also state income taxes, payroll taxes, capital gains, etc. what percentage is fair share?
Do we have a collection problem or a spending problem?
Watch Biden’s Head of Economic Advisors Try to Explain Government Borrowing
In case you missed it, please Watch Biden’s Head of Economic Advisors Try to Explain Government Borrowing
And If you are looking for some recommended reading on economic theory, I can help.
Define “income.”
Income: The earnings, wages, stipends or dividends of any person that doesn’t make large campaign donations,
Interesting the “Fair Share” point. I often debate this with progressives. I ask them to put a % or any rules they want to define “Fair Share” and they always refuse. I tell them that we will never then know. Turns out, they are triggered by that banker who makes $10M … but fine when LeBron makes $100M. So I ask them .. “Does anybody need more than $1M/year?” Since I assume their answer to be no … then we can get almost $200M in taxes from LeBron and Beyonce. I let them know “it will be for the children”. Needless to say, no answers when I continue pressing for reality. But “Fair Share” still sounds good to them.
“What percentage of all income tax collection should the top 1 percent pay? Top 10 percent?”
None. Of course.
No possible income tax will ever be compatible with freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Hence with any freedom at all.
No remotely legitimate government has ever levied an “income” tax. It was never even considered in the US, back when America still held some aspiration of being considered a civilized country. Only after its transition into a purely totalitarian terror state; with the rise to power of the progressive movement; did that kind of 100% STASI-level-spying-and-ratting-out-dependent nonsense appear. Right alongside the similarly illegitimate Fed. As well as alongside universal terror state funded indoctrination: Which by now has resulted in a captive indoctrinati so gullible and illiterate they don’t even recognize this. Instead mindlessly trying their best at high-jump-while-holding-ankles, while being oh so grateful as long as Massa promises to use even less lube on those mean mechicuns…
1000 upvotes
Watching encroaching fascist totalitarianism subvert America unopposed, is horrifying.
Its like passing a terrible accident.
Some won’t look.
Some will take a peek.
Some will look.
A few will stop to render assistance.
(Stuki) saying it is rendering assistance.
Silence is complicity.
Al it required, was creating selfish self absorbed boomer “flower” children whom the pigs could count on to look away, while the total subversion of the US into a toxic dystopia was undertaken.
You won’t see any boomers protesting anywhere, about anything.
Why would they when their mantra is “I GOT MINE.”
Some boomers protested the Vietnam war….. but now war helps to bubble their assets along with unlimited government spending so war is now good for them so ………. SILENCE
And INDEED you are correct fast bear. Silence is complicity
“Fair share” is Democrat Party propaganda. The politicians create grandiose domestic or military spending programs that the people didn’t vote for.
“Warren Buffet is fond of saying his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does, but that is the exception (depending on how much he pays her).”
Decades ago the CEO of Lincoln Savings was interviewed by 60 Minutes. He bragged that he was paying his secretary $100,000 a year. Then the Savings and Loan scandal happened.
Buffett pays himself only $100K per year (salary) which is well below the $250K threshold for “rich” that is often thrown around. Of course, he also gets a lot of things “free” to himself (they are paid for by the company) and he gets 99.9999% of his wealth from his shares appreciating.
If Buffett pays his secretary a market wage, he/she probably makes over $200K and maybe over $300K per year salary. Ergo he/she probably pays higher tax rates. Its very deceptive for Buffett to make the statements he does about this.
Keep in mind, a secretary for a S&P500 company CEO is not the same as a city clerk secretary. CEO secretaries have to know which calls to filter out, which to take a message, and which need to be buzzed into Buffett’s desk immediately — and they have to be somewhat diplomatic about telling a government bureaucrat that Mr Buffett is “in a meeting” even when the truth is “he’s avoiding your stupid call”. The “mere secretary” of a CEO is often an office manager who decides which VP’s get on the CEO calendar, and which don’t. Plenty of CEO secretaries can get a Senior VP fired.
High ranking executives tend to keep their secretaries long term, bringing them along if they change companies. Lots of Chairman Emeritus of companies have a clause in their contract to keep an office and secretary after the Chair/CEO steps down.
I doubt Buffett’s secretary is a mere phone message taker; and I would imagine he/she is very well paid
Agreed, the executive secretary for a Fortune 500 CEO is much more like a White House Chief of Staff position (who is the gatekeeper for his schedule), with some level of concierge service added. It’s a very valued employee.
MISH
Have you considered throttling comments (maybe a 30 day ban?) from the paid political agitators who keep posting comments that get -15 or lower feedback? Not one time -15, but over and over and over, comment after comment, post after post.
The community notes thing on X actually works to discredit people who post patently false nonsense. It is far from perfect, but its the best system for filtering garbage devised so far.
Maybe block for 30 days the commenters who get -15 (net) votes three times?
Maybe automatically hide commenters who get -15 (net) three times?
Disagreement is a good thing. Purposefully agitating is not
Fascist Behavior
That’s not how free speech works.
The best way to deal with shills is actually a process.
I. If someone is sprouting nonsense then expose it and educate people in the process. If you expose their tropes a few times the board will begin to see through them and a shill will need to move onto another topic/tactic. Since they have an agenda there are only so many approaches available to them.
II. For awhile to help remind people, make a comment “fake/ignore” and don’t downvote at all.
III. Once you educate a board to see through them and you don’t react at all, no comment/no downvote, believe it or not they go away.
Eventually you can train a board to render shills 100% impotent by just ignoring them.
Dear Fast Bear,
Don’t get all scared or worked up if random people start hugging you tomorrow.
Tomorrow is national hug an idiot day.
In that case, foreign propagandists would create user names and down vote all members who didn’t abide policy discussions promoting their country’s cause.
Corporations, political organizations, all parties standing to gain would do it.
Mish doesn’t block people by their user name.
I made several suggestions, and admitted none of them are ideal. I hope someone will take my idea and add to it — and eventually we will find a way to keep the paid agitators at bay.
People in the NYC area know where Soros lives. People in LA know where his activist son lives. No need for anything illegal … but some peer pressure applied to the sources of the problem would make life more pleasant for everyone else
F#ck Soros and his ilk
No need for bans. We have free speech. You are welcome to hit the “hide” button so you’ll no longer see posts from that person.
If you (or your company) reboots your computer every weekend, those “hide” features get reset on reboot – even assuming you “log in” to Mishtalk again. it forgets all the agitators who were previously hidden.
Rebooting and clearing old cookies is very basic / minimal cyber security, it is unreasonable to expect users to lower cyber security standards
Further, the cookie that is set is defective (it lacks a “sameSite” attribute, and thus does not promulgate). More lowering of cybersecurity standards.
There are at least two different logins using the display name “Casual Observer” (although it appears to be the same writing style?). Blocking one does not block the other.
Best solution is to block all comments and visit Mish’s site less.
BTW — Mish already censors what stories he mentions (LOTS of Biden tax proposals) versus what stories he “forgets” to mention (attorney Jack Smith admitted his office tampered with evidence collected from Mar a Lago)
“…Mish already censors what stories he mentions (LOTS of Biden tax proposals) versus what stories he “forgets” to mention (attorney Jack Smith admitted his office tampered with evidence collected from Mar a Lago)…”
Are you kidding?!?!?!?
It’s Mish’s flipping blog. HE writes about topics HE finds interesting!!!! If you don’t like it you are free to go elsewhere.
“When you tear out a man’s tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you’re only telling the world that you fear what he might say.”
George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings
What you are proposing is akin to Biden’s “misinformation” campaign.
If people can’t see through the occasional nonsense that some people post in the comments here then they will be susceptible to any “propaganda” they hear. Including propaganda you deem appropriate.
Not so. Biden or Jack Dorsey are not deciding who gets suspended. At least 15 people are collectively voting for suspending the idiot.
BTW, its funny that the political agitators are the ones commenting against this idea.
Where are these 15 suspension votes you speak of? I don’t see votes to suspend on posts, I only see up/down votes, or are you equating down votes to “I want this person suspended”?
Read the f#cking post in its entirety or shut up
So down votes = suspension votes in your view. You do realize the up/down counter is net of both up and down votes dont you? So by you logic as along as there are roughly 15 more people disliking a comment consistentally, then the commenter must have be a paid political agitator. SMH….can’t take an alternate viewpoint can you?
The problem is not that enough taxes are not being collected. It is too much government spending by an intrusive, bloated, all knowing central planning government bureaucracy that inflicts onerous regulations on everything while becoming captive of any industry that is supposed to be regulated. Most regulation becomes a way for mega corporations to control the rest of us minions to eliminate or buy out the competition. The end result is massive transfer of wealth to top 1%. However, trying to tax them more to recover is extremely difficult due to their enormous wealth and influence. Proposals to tax the rich are just window dressing. Smaller government with drastically reduced control is the only answer, but I expect I may just be spitting into the wind here.
To repast what I said below:
“…failed 44 year Reaganomics experiment, those “job creating tax cuts” have mostly created those jobs in China, Mexico & India.
We now have 44 years of compounded interest on the resultant borrowing.”
When wages go down, household debt goes up, so does entitlement spending, which then pushes the Fed to lower rates to service that debt.
Both household and government debt growth exploded @ 1980, at the exact time real wages bottomed.
As of 2020, real wages finally returned to their 1973 equivalence, that’s equivalence, not growth.
The only periods of real wage growth were under Clinton, then Obama. they were either flat or dropped under Reagan and Bush…. granted, likely attributed to left stimulative policies.
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I have poopy dove on ignore since he is a broken record and a troll. But I know what he would say: You can’t do anything about it so stop complaining. If he were to follow his own advice, he would unplug from the internet, yet he is here on a daily basis.
You forgot to mention the Canadian oil and gas.
wrong question for a society with centralized fractional reserve banking.
Tax passive / investment income, not earned income derived from labor.
Fire 2/3rds of the bureaucracy. Tax all the non profits. Cut taxes for everyone else.
Double tax bribes, kickbacks, lobbying expenses, campaign donations and fundraisers
BTW six000mile, I wonder if you considered how your pension / retirement gets funded if not via investment income?
Social security is a ponzi scheme. Politicians claim they invested the surplus, but they just “borrowed” it and spent it. Now they have to cut benefits and raise taxes to “repay” the money they already stole (both parties are guilty)
Private pensions, 401k, IRA, Roth, and annuities are all made possible by investment income
Willie, This is not a two party problem. It is a three party system. The 2nd Amendment gives the news media protection from government regulation for one reason. So they can blow the whistle on Government Malfeasance. But today the Dems lie and media convinces voters it’s the truth. When the Republicans tell the truth the Dems and the (MM) Majority Media convince the voters they are lying.
So…. lets sue the MM to recover the $3.5 Trillion they allowed the Dems steal from the SS and Medicare Trust funds.
As self important as they claim to be, the mass media are not a political party. They have big heads (arrogance) but as a group not much grey matter to fill those skulls with.
Freedom of the press was Ben Franklin’s idea (with lots of supporters). Franklin just printed random pamphlets under the pen name “Dear Prudence”? (I don’t remember the exact pen name he used, but it was close to that).
Newspapers aren’t necessary. A way for disgruntled taxpayers to speak is. X/Twitter (or something like it) is a great way to work around the mass media. I mention X only because X is trying (they are still human) not to censor like the mass media does. If you don’t like X, pick another.
If you tax investments in the US the investment money will just leave the US. Then the workers will get visit abandond factories for 8 hours a day.
The wealthiest in New York and California moved to Florida or Texas to save on their taxes. How much did state taxes have to go up to chase the wealthy out? Less than what Biden is going to tax them if they stay. The top 1% either own a jet or have easy access to one. They can be gone in 24 hours. I’m sure they are working on their exit plans right now. Many will also start moving their money this week. Worse yet, even if Biden’s plan never gets implemented the money will be gone and will not come back.
Cut spending.
Don’t let this nasty crook argue WHO pays for the stupid spending, just don’t spend it at all.
Eliminate 2/3rds of government headcount, permanently.
Don’t care what some senile Marxist thinks about who should fund his crooked lifestyle
“And that’s why you don’t put mashed potatoes in shotguns, because green technology isn’t Ukranian banjo malarkey! Come on man!”
Not to criticize but is not the question how to arrange my lifestyle so as to avoid paying taxes.?
What, working three or four jobs to make ends meet is not enough for average person?
Living off credit cards as average person is, just to make it thru another day.
Doubtful there are all that many posters here earning or having Assets that qualify then for that 1% designation.
If Fed chooses to do another stimulus are you really going to run right out and double down on Debt just to buy another widget?
The game of musical Debt assumption is coming to end. There are no more safe chairs to sit down upon. The long evolving storm is here. Do you know where your safe harbour is?
“I believe that our debt is the greatest threat to our national security.” -Admiral Mike Mullen, Posture Statement 2011
Normal government response is sweep it under carpet. Nothing to see here.
Second government response is kick can down the road. Well it’s far enough out of sight it looks small in the distance.
Third government level response is panic. Oh my God the Plebs are going to get upset, quick emergency solution and dammed the consequences.
Since the time of third level response fast approaches and if a person can call Government action before it happens they make a fortune. But if on wrong side they get detonated. This generally is a coin toss as to how things would get handled.
Personally I think better to sit this one out. Can always get back in after the fact.
Link: “Changes in Wealth and the Velocity of Money”
https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/review/87/03/Changes_Mar1987.pdf
What do we get for federal taxes? For most of us not much. Add state and local taxes, property tax and all the other taxes like sales tax and phone taxes and middle-class folks are pretty close to what Europeans pay in taxes. However, those Euros get a lot of stuff for the taxes that we don’t.
the US is still funding+fighting europe’s wars… they “feel safe”, and we pay the tab.
both sides of the swamp uniParty fully endorse this arrangement… you know, because ‘strategic interests’ and other vague BS cliches…
“Eisenhower’s presidency did see some tax rates above 90%, but that figure only applied to the individual income taxes of top earners. For married people filing jointly in 1953, for example, any income above $200,000 was taxed at 90%, above $300,000 at 91%, and above $400,000 at 92%.”
We could return to fine GOP values,
Not making an opinion response , but need a footnote here. $200,000 in 1953 is like $2,300,000 in 2024.
https://www.amortization.org/inflation/amount.php?year=1953&amount=200000
Using a CPI calculator instead of an amortization table, $400,000 in 1953 is $4,620,479 in 2024.
That’s about double $2,300,00.
When statutory tax rates were 90%, deductions were MUCH higher. Those people actually paid closer to 45% after all the deductions allowed by the tax code.
Today, the wealthy are paying 45% with comparably few deductions. We are already at the same net tax rate as the 1950s.
The problem is the government has grown much faster than the tax base, faster than GDP, faster than population. Its too f@cking big to be supported.
Slash the government headcount and payroll. Slash taxes. Limit government pension contribuions to the same limits as private 401ks and IRAs — public servants must be subject to the same laws as the public. No excuses.
Cut corporate taxes too … require companies to match retirement contributions in lieu of paying for the politicians war in Ukraine.
“When statutory tax rates were 90%, deductions were MUCH higher. Those people actually paid closer to 45% after all the deductions allowed by the tax code.”
If I recall, effective rates, even at that bracket, were much lower than that.
This was why Milton Friedman proposed the 15% flat mandatory tax, the wealthy would have paid more.
Now, most billionaires pay single digits, the advantages of having Ivy-league CPA’s.
.
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I was pointing out that the “90% top bracket” argument is a bunch of BS. It was never actually 90%, it was 90% minus deductions, which made it much lower in practice.
I repeat, yet again, that the real problem is spending. A bloated and corrupt payroll, lucrative government contracts to politcally connected, and absolutely stupid wars on every continent that US public school “graduates” can’t find on a map.
There is a local (to me) Ivy League college, and one of their idiot professors was on TV as a self-proclaimed subject expert on how much the other guy should be paying. This idiot works for the largest land owner (by far) in the municipality but pays zero property taxes. They have a huge endowment and pay zero income taxes. They demand to finance their buildings and stadium using tax exempt debt.
They are freeloaders. If the idiot professor had half a brain, he would keep his head down and STFU. We need more wealthy people building factories and hiring people for good wages; we don’t need more overpriced colleges teaching students to whine like babies.
Please stop arguing about tax brackets and lets focus on the excessive spending.
If additional revenue is needed (it isn’t) make the growing infestation of tax exempt organizations pay their share — starting with colleges and universities (don’t stop there, but start there). First lets get spending under control, even if the public servants don’t like it — its not there choice
The myth of “wealthy people building factories and hiring people for good wages” disappeared after 2001 when the Fed dropped the interest rate to around 1%. Instead the money went into inflating home prices and moving American manufacturing to the far East, and more to Mexico. America never recovered.
Proportionality
Lower class income <$28k, 20% of population.
Average personal middle class income = $75k
Average income of the top 1% = $900k
Stocks owned by the top 1% = 50% – $25 trillion of $50 trillion total
There are numerous ways to use stocks for untaxable income, namely taking out loans against stocks and sometimes using that debt as a write-off instead of taxable cap gains.
Personally, I’d be happy to see the GOP take responsibility for the failed 44 year Reaganomics experiment, those “job creating tax cuts” have mostly created those jobs in China, Mexico & India.
We now have 44 years of compounded interest on the resultant borrowing.
Republicans will say it’s not their fault, it was “the Neocons” that did it.
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Some people claim that it was Regan to blame, but I know, it was their own damn fault.
there are 2 us tax codes. one for owners with tons of great goodies, and the other for employees who pay full boat price………
Not really a tax thing, but if I was walking 2 pit bulls down the street, drunken driving or sawing down a tree over the neighbor’s house, then I’d like to set up an LLC with $1 in the account for each.
Every penny collected that is above what it takes to run the government / provide services for American citizens is theft.
Apparently killing Russians and Palestinians is required by the US Government.
Think about taxes as payment for services.
High income individuals and companies are getting great service, we should pay for it.
Those taxes pay for the military to keep my borders where they are so I can keep making money, benefits programs to keep low income people from rioting, and a little spending on everything else a nation has to do.
Pretty good value for money.
Low income people could be better off with other systems of government. It makes sense for them to not have to pay for this one. Small payments from this government to them is a sound investment.
You’ve far outdone my usual downvote ratio, I have to pick up my game.
Upvoted.
I can not believe the elephant in the room is never mentioned?
Have you recently been to a region of the country dominated by the military. Besides the 800 bases, thousands of aircraft, submarines, tanks, missile complexes etc. See all those new cars there, you’re making the payments. Imagine whole regions of the militarized US, fully supported by your cash and cash stolen from your unborn descendent’s.
Lets call the corpulent bloated military what it is:
Welfare for motivation-less, ambition-less clowns; who can achieve by joining; a fairly limited, relatively pitiful, fairly secure life simply by following orders from one of their slightly more motivated droid companions.
We pay cumulatively about what countries in Europe pay in taxes and get shit all; while the worthless, ambition less military droids live in relative security. Its no accident those in the military;
GET ALLTHE BENEFITS YOU’LL FIND CITIZENS RECEIVING IN DENMARK?
Of course the thieving from the productive class to pay for this, in part necessitates a massive system of surveillance making certain, no one gets in the way of the cash moving from your pocket to theirs. And don’t forget, their secondary, dual purpose as a domestic cudgel, as Biden said, “You can’t fight f16′”s.
Unless you’re a vet on the gravy train, any sentimental appreciate feeling you have about the military were planted in your head by decades of brainwashing propaganda. Parasites can trick their hosts into accepting them and no “I do not thank you for your service.” Go to college learn a trade, start a business is the American way become productive. Get off you lazy ass and make yourself in something great. You can do better, millions do it everyday, you can to.
When it’s pronounced ‘milutrah’ in NoVa is usually the tell.
No debate whatsoever that our military spending is absurd, that said, I won’t agree on attacking those who serve in the military.
That’s tantamount to those who were drafted to Vietnam who were targeted for being in a war the MIC started.
The last time the military was defending the country is when the Brits were chasing Madison around Washington DC.
You’re making my argument for years now, and that is “Why not a Flat Tax”? You pay for consumption personally per purchase. As fair as a tax that we will ever get perhaps?
Bread and circus for the peasants, vast wealth for the Imperial Court. Since the Imperial Court’s wealth (top 10%) is driven by globalization and military / economic hegemony, they probably should pay more tax to support this. The peasants can mow their lawns and riot occasionally to scare voters. Seen under these optics, the Biden Admin at least has a rationale. If on the other hand we’re talking about the USA, then we’ve got a spending problem.
NFL and wings?
So, Internet, Netflix, Amazon Prime soon to be paid by government?
(Upvoted)
I have no clue how you got 4 upvotes in this forum, I’m the 5th.
Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen.
Töte sie alle. Gott kennt sein eigenes.
10 percent for the big guy. Everyone else pays more. Much more.
I thought you were Republican….?
We have a spending issue. We shouldn’t be talking about taxes until spending is under control.
“We have to pass this bill to see what’s in it”…Nancy Pelosi
Can you imagine removing her Botox and seeing what’s in THAT?
When you dilute the labor pool by cutting taxes for creating jobs in China over decades, entitlement spending goes up, fed rates go down to accommodate debt service.
However, maybe you can convince folks like Mish to forego their SSI retirement to help the budget.
Myself, I would prefer a flat tax on income. That said I don’t ever expect to see it. I also would like that all tax-free foundations be taxed because they are now just a means to remove your wealth from taxation, keep control of that wealth, employ otherwise unemployable family members and use it to often fund causes that are harmful. If you want to fund your pet cause fine, but do it with after-tax money.
The current tax code is ridiculous. CPAs and other tax-preparers would riot if a flat tax is proposed.
So would the wealthy, as they are generally speaking, the largest consumers.
Flat Tax = Fair Tax As you pay, as you consume.
You are confounding a fair tax, such as a sales tax, with a flat tax which need not have anything to do with consumption. Unfortunately the poor have to spend most of what they get, the rich not so much.
It’s politically impossible to cut Medicare and SS. Too many votes there. But the millionaire class…..not too many of them. So tax rates will have to go up to pay the bills and interest on federal debt. If that doesn’t happen, in 5 years America will be seen as insolvent and who will buy our debt other than the Central Bank. The middle class is being obliterated and the lower classes will never climb up. There is no solution other than to raise taxes on people who can afford to pay more. We cannot keep printing trillions every year. I don’t think Mish offered a solution.
The solution is to cut spending. No taxpayer dollars should be spent on drug addicts, illegals, single parents and sex changes for military personnel.
Yes there are some that deserve help like the widows and orphans but they are a minority and private charity can take care of them. The undeserving poor like bimbos with 3 baby daddies are self induced problems.
As for income tax the only fair % is zero. Should be one man gets one vote and one tax bill aka a poll tax. Those too poor to pay such a tax don’t get to vote on how others tax dollars are spent.
The US Federal Reserve is a self-licking ice cream cone.
Inconvenient fact:
As of March 28, 2024, the top 1% of Americans held a record $44.6 trillion in wealth. This is more than the combined wealth of the entire middle class. The average wealth of households in the top 1% was about $33.4 million in the second quarter of 2023, while the average American household had wealth of $1.09 million.
Individual income taxes aren’t the problem. The problem is with the loopholes for corporations. A corporate AMT would go a long way towards solving tax problems. You have nearly trillion dollar companies paying close to 0%. Make the Corporate AMT 7% like Singapore. I would also have this apply to churches, non-profits, private universities and every other business that acts like it is not a business. The churches would be incensed but they would have no choice. So would universities and nonprofits. One reason wealth people are doing this wealth pledge is so they don’t have to pay taxes on it because it goes to a bunch of nonprofits who are supposedly doing good. But they are just masking as businesses too.
Tax revenues currently run about 16 percent of GDP from the Feds . Currently projected to go to 20 percent of GDP in the near future . What your saying is 20 percent is not enough for the feds . This does not include State and local taxes that take another big chunk . Do you really belive if the taxes being recieve went up that the feds would responsibly apply it to the deficit ? They would spend it and borrow even more on anything that they could conjur up, it would not go to shoring up stuff like SS or Medicare or making payments on reducing the debt . Going up on corporate and bussiness taxes would only increase the burden on the individual consumer who would have to pay for that increase in products and services to cover the increase costs that the companies would charge them .
He who pays the piper calls the tune.
Something to keep in mind when you want the other guy to pay more taxes.
Yeah, one dollar, one vote.
I have a better idea for taxes that would end all the fighting over it. Just make all levies, fees etc not a flat fee but 2% (or some percentage) of annual income. Switzerland does this and no one there seems to have an issue with it. If a person that makes tens of millions in income tax wants to speed in their Lamborghini and gets caught, they pay 2% of their annual income. This would apply to everything like license and registration fees at the DMV, registration fees for boats, planes or whatever. Corporations love to dole out bonuses and everything else as percentage of income. Let’s let government do the same to everyone. This would solve the whole tax problem in one fell swoop.
And there are loopholes galore with that. If I make 100 million/year and you want me to pay 2% annually to the DMV to register my Lamborgini then I will just register in my wife’s name or my kids name and save 99% of that 2 million. Or register in the name of my nephew who is in Africa and doesn’t work much so 2% of $1000/year is $20.
And no I don’t make 100 million but I do have things registered both at home and internationally in various relatives names.
Switzerland also encouraged citizens to rat each other out for turning the thermostat above 18 degrees C. I’ve lived there, and never would again. It’s extraordinarily chauvinistic and socially inaccessible to outsiders, unless you’re Marc Rich and could buy your way into the Canton of Zug while fleeing justice in the rest of the world. In the German section, the average Swiss is tediously self-satisfied and judgemental of everyone else on earth not born Swiss. If they lived up to their own self image, they would all be Übermenschen firmly ensconced in the Genossenschaft. Instead, they’re Swiss. They cheerfully hide the loot of dictators from every third world hellhole of human suffering on earth. Amoral scum. I cannot speak to the Italian and French sections, except that in all probability I would be happier in Italy or France. And France, Italy, and Germany all have much better food and friendlier people than Switzerland.
There should be a flat tax – same rate for EVERYONE. Tax is paid on gross income- no deductions. Corporations should also have a flat tax based on gross sales – no deductions. This would mean no free rides for anyone (companies and individuals)
That makes too much sense. So it will never get enacted. Every cottage industry wants their tax loopholes and cannot survive without them. LLCs, S Corps, writeoffs for this that and the other.
Whatever percentage covers spending.
The government screws you and I, why shouldn’t it screw the wealthy for a change?
We’re way beyond what’s fair or reasonable. Interest on the federal debt is now the 2nd biggest item in the budget, more than Defense, Medicare or Medicaid. Only SS is more. In 4 years Interest will be by far the biggest item in the budget if rates stay near where they are now. It’s a crisis and the elephant in the room, and almost no one in charge is talking about it.
It’s going to be absolutely devastating to the “Hookers and Blow” economy when it all collapses.
Like Elon cutting a large headcount and twitter still working fine, I want the Federal Govt to cut 40% across the board EXCEPT for SS/Medi/Medi.
3 or 4 entire departments need to be eliminated and/or combined as well.
This fixes A LOT of problems
I want congress and entire staff paycheck tied to meeting budget/spending. When the debt limit gets hit, paychecks stop and Federal Govt automatically shuts down
This fixes A LOT of problems too
THEN the Federal Govt budget is tied to previous year’s GDP growth/shrink. 4% growth, then the budget can grow a mathematical estimate of what the GDP will yield in additional tax receipts. If it shrinks by 4% then so does the next year’s budget by the same mathematical calculation.
This fixes A LOT of problems too
This is NOT that hard. WE don’t DESPISE these people enough.
“…I want the Federal Govt to cut 40% across the board EXCEPT for SS/Medi/Medi….”
Ummmm……no it doesn’t. You could fire every single federal employee and every single person in the military and the budget would still be in a large deficit. That’s how much mandatory spending eats up.
I’m not saying that cuts aren’t needed for the areas you suggest, but cutting everything except SSI/MEDICARE/MEDICAID is literally a rounding error. It gets you no where.
40% of the $800B defense budget isn’t a rounding error. That alone is a huge cut
Nope, cut all military and fed employees and you still have a yearly deficit. The math doesn’t work unless SSI/Medicare/Medicaid is on the chopping block.
“Pay your fair share” “for the greater good” and to “protect vital US national security interests,” because “diversity is our strength” and, “you know, the thing!”
You forgot…”We have to do it for the children”
95%. Government needs money to build that high speed rail from San Francisco to Los Angeles that in 15 years has built 1,600 feet for a mere $11,000,000,000
For those distrustful of a 3rd party publishing tax data, you can get tax data direct from the IRS.
Go to the IRS website and then to their SOI section (stands for Study Of Income). There is a section for individual taxes. Lots of interesting data for a number of years. Data can be retrieved in a pdf format or Excel format.
You can compare , for example, tax data for 2017 (pre Trump tax changes) vs tax data for 2021.
Taxes. Nothing you can do about them.
People here make lots of suggestions. They won’t happen.
People here complain a lot. Like that will ever change anything.
No politician or government is going to make your life better. Only YOU can do that.
So; forget your suggestions; stop complaining; and focus your energy on improving your life.
I’ve done all of those things and my life has improved (I’m in that top 2%). Now what ? What’s your take on the US debt situation ?
Same answer. Focus your time on things you can control. Your productivity drops to zero when you focus on things you can’t control.
Nothing you, as an individual, can do about the debt. The vast majority of the public either doesn’t care about the debt or they don’t understand it. You are fighting a battle you can’t possibly win so why worry about it. The only rational thing for you to do is to position yourself in a way that mitigates the negative effects of the massive debt loads the govenrment carries as much as possible.
If you still feel strongly about it and want help, the Fed government does accept donations to help pay down the debt.
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/government/public-debt-reports/gifts/
You can do something about taxes. I don’t manufacture or employ locals as it is cheaper for me to do that overseas. And then the government and socialists wonder why so many jobs and manufacturers are now no longer local and think the solution is to raise taxes to subsidise local production and end up making yet more problems.
Smart. You focused on what you can control.
But it hasn’t changed taxes.
“Our new Constitution is now established, and has an appearance that promises permanency; but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.” Benjamin Franklin -from a letter he wrote in 1789.
Franklin wasn’t the first to use the phrase related to the certainty of death and taxes. Similar phrases have been used many times throughout history so Papa is correct in my view.
Taxes aren’t going away. The best thing one can do is to figure out how to pay as little as possible or to defer payment as long as possible (make that deferred payment work for you). Health savings accounts, IRAs, 401ks, college savings accounts, etc are all great ways to avoid or delay taxation.
Use what’s available to your advantage!!!!!
“ Use what’s available to your advantage!!!!!”
Agree. Control what you can. And don’t worry about the things you can’t change.
Then move on to other things you can control.
What the Crypt Keeper should have said is this:
1) Bottom 50% will pay NO Federal income tax.
2) A balanced budget Constitutional Ammendment will be passed.
3) Then and only then will equitable tax burdens, across all income levels, will be deemed fair.
So they destroyed the middle class to get cheaper stuff from overseas and now there are not enough people left to pay the taxes.
Half the population pays no net taxes due to poverty?
Exactly. And with the tax loopholes for entrepreneurs whose companies eventually go public, they pay NO TAX on their founders stock. It is like trying to squeeze water from a rock. Eventually there is nothing left to take.
The rich will say that they pay a lot of income tax (the honest ones). This is true. However, the US is the 3rd lowest payer of income tax (only Mexico & Chile pay less). Everyone else on the planet pays more income tax as a percentage of GDP than we do. So yes, the rich pay a lot of tax, and they should pay even more. Or go live in Europe where they pay a hell of a lot more tax than Buffett.
Right…because governments do such a great job spending money…Not!
Had any drinking water today? How about breathed in some fresh air today? Had a criminal break into your house and attack your family today? How about your last plane ride? Or the last time you went on a major road? Or went to the hospital? You think God just put all these things in your lap?
Nobody minds paying for those things with their taxes (or they shouldn’t)
But the US spends 1.19 trillion a year on welfare (across 80 programs) at the Federal level. That’s wasted tax dollars because we get zero, none, nada work for that. That’s what needs to change. People on Welfare need to be contributing some kind of work.
Everyone receiving welfare should be required to work 40 hours every week. There are enough jobs – even if it’s only picking up trash, mowing grasses and cleaning. If people stop receiving free day care then they wouldn’t be having all these children because the parents would be responsible to pay all expenses to raise them.
The overwhelming majority of human existence is supported by oil and farmland, neither of which cost humans anything to get started. People of all shapes and sizes are riding free in this world — half of Americans pay no Federal income tax at all. If you think people dont work enough now, just wait till computers and AI replace more workers. There might be a LOT of people on “welfare” in the next 30 years. Maybe even you.
Who is coming up with this daily b.s, that this criminal degenerate is supposedly saying?
And the “wealthy” invariably becomes the middle class.
Nope. The Wealthy STAY wealthy. The REALLY Wealthy, grow WAY more wealthy. Politicians in their pockets and plenty of Tax advantaged deals for the REALLY Wealthy that help ensconce the RW as such.
Their Kids / Heirs have to really mess it up and lose their wealth for that not to continue to be the case.
In a world of 8 billion humans capital is more valuable than labor. No surprise that those who work, save, and invest become wealthy.
You got the invest and become wealthy part right. But what’s going on now is the rich don’t have to work anymore or save. They borrow or inherit and system goes haywire. The haywire phase just started but since the uber wealthy are now fleeing for tax havens, eventually the haywire phase will lead to a crash.
It is misleading that the IRS doesn’t count as income the EITC, welfare, and other items that contribute to a negative income tax rate. It sure sounds like income to me.
And oh yeah, Social Security is going to run out of money in a decade or so. I want to know when welfare payments are in danger of running out of money. Why doesn’t Congress debate that?
We have a $34 Trillion dollar debt. Roll back Trump and GWB tax cuts on everyone. Don’t cut SS period and figure out how to cut Medicare by being more efficient on HC. Next is war. No war that lasts more than 90 days without Congress declaring war. No war using debt. Part of declaring war should be a war surcharge tax on every citizen, rich or poor. You quibble using percentages and only focusing on income tax but none of that talk solves the debt problem.
Here’s an idea, get rid of 20% of federal employees. The wait six months and do this again. Cut defense department and all department budgets 10%. Eliminate all payment to foreign governments, to anyone here illegally and stop the war spending.
Get the Federal government outlays down to about 17% of GDP. This is a historical number. Less would be better.
Medical spending is over 1/3 of the federal budget. You’ll never fix the deficit without throwing some medical and pharmacy executives in prison for price fixing.
Why should it take 90 days for Congress to declare war? Congress took only hours after Pearl Harbour to declare war and with the exception of Korea the US has not had a single war since WW2 where the start of hostilities by the US has not already had weeks or months of US preparation for military action.
A week should be more than long enough and it will make it much harder for presidents to engage in military action without explicit Congress approval.
And for the duration of a war every member of Congress, the president and his cabinet and every officer in the military should only be paid the same wage as a Sargent. If there is a good reason for the nation to go to war then they shouldn’t mind such a sacrifice for the War Effort should they?
I’m not sure if the US has ever ‘officially’ declared war since Pearl Harbor. The 90-days you speak of was for the funding bill for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. We haven’t declared war…we are just fostering other countries to fight their wars.
Did Joey ever ask Hunter to “pay his fair share?”
Hunter sells art to the wealthy. They know the biggest and best way to launder money is through art. If it is to some foundation, it is all tax deductible.
Yes he did, FJB made sure Hunter paid a cut to the Big Guy. After all ice cream isn’t cheap and nor a dementia meds.
Hey Mish, my memory is that a couple of years ago. You asked if anyone had data about the cost of lumber now or then versus the building boom in 2005. If that is the case, let me know. I’m Putting together pricing to build this summer and I have my files from 2005 handy. so I can give you real numbers or actual receipts if you would like a comparison.
I’ve contacted you twice through the years about robots in my day job and both times you gave a response to my email but I don’t remember what email I used back then. So if you’re interested in the data plse let me know here. if not, no need to reply. Thank you.