Xi and Putin Bind China and Russia’s Economies Further, Despite War in Ukraine
On the second day of the Chinese leader’s state visit in Moscow, Xi Jinping and Vladimir V. Putin declared an enduring economic partnership, in an effort to insulate their countries from punitive Western measures.
By Valerie Hopkins and Chris Buckley
March 21, 2023
MOSCOW — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia and China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, declared an enduring economic partnership on Tuesday, promising to bring more Russian energy to China and more Chinese companies to Russia as the two leaders sought to insulate their countries from Western sanctions and other consequences of the war in Ukraine.
The economic pledges, trumpeted by the leaders on the second day of Mr. Xi’s state visit to Moscow, were a sign that China would continue to do business as normal with Russia and that Moscow and Beijing were circling their wagons, economically at least, against any punitive measures from the United States or Europe.
As the two leaders met on Tuesday, Japan’s prime minister, Fumio Kishida, visited Kyiv in a show of support that put the geopolitical fault lines created by Russia’s invasion into even sharper relief.
It was a significant change for Japan, which has drawn a clear line on the war and joined with other Group of 7 nations to impose sanctions on Russia and provide billions of dollars in aid to Ukraine.
Embattled economically and isolated on the world stage, Russia has leaned heavily on China to make up for lost business since its economy was abruptly severed from the West. Mr. Putin’s economic outreach this week was a clear sign that Beijing was gaining leverage over Russia even as it gave its neighbor help, said Alexander Gabuev, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
in 44 BC Gaius Julius Caesar , arguably one of smartest-powerful ancient people alive,was murder in Rome .
He conquered modern France and partly Britain.
just short 80 years later Caligula , #3 Rome emperor (AD 37-41), wanted to to appoint his equestrian bud to the Senate, but he was assassinated before he could make it happen.
this is how it happens, fall of the countries: slow, and then very fast!
Avery
1 year ago
How does this dangerous clown get elected?
Are the people in South Carolina that brain-dead or are the elections fixed like Illinois!
he has ‘non traditional orientation’, thus he was compromised years ago, imagine being ga$y 40 years in USA for public figure!
same as Biden w/ his showers and sons and daughter
it was done by purpose. it is called control.
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
Western msm getting its rocks off this morning , Kiev attacks Crimea again !….Biden and Deep State must be pleased with themselves and the coordinates of the targets passed on to basketcase Kiev…..This is all taking too long, too much restraint by Putin, at one point corrupt Kiev will have to be wiped off the earth, gentle surgeons make stinking wounds ! Diplomacy is strictly forbidden by the US , Poland threatening to send in boots, jets and long range missiles only a matter of time…. and Russia still postponing the unpostponable….Putin has already been declared a criminal by a criminal court , better a big crook than a small time one….
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
Makes me wonder …What happened with those 4 tanks send to nazi Kiev by deluded Berlin ….Broke down somewhere between Kiev and Bakhmut ? No spare parts ? Time to send long range missiles stuffed with f depleted demockcrazy, there must be plenty of them….
david halte
1 year ago
War with a major country won’t be fought with a volunteer military. Conscription in the U.S. lasted from 1947 to 1973. The Selective Service conducted lotteries to determine the order of call to military service in the Vietnam War. Imagine Millennials staring at their phones for their lottery number to appear. In wasn’t long ago, as current high inflation and low unemployment levels were last seen in the 1970s. Upper middle class progressive mommies, that proclaim diversity, won’t be able to squirrel their progeny from service, as they did in the 70s. And every candidate can’t enlist as a commissioned officer. Like the episode on “The Simpsons” were Bart is drafted: no matter what talents or education draftees had they were sent to infantry.
France suspended conscription in 2001, Germany in 2001, Italy in 2005. Note that conscription is only suspended and not eliminated which means that it would not be necessary to pass a law to start the drafting people again. Scandinavian countries still do it as well as the Baltics and we can also mention Switzerland where all men must do military service that is rather extensive.
long live pax dumbphuckistan. we’ve been at continual war my entire first 62 years. i think the 50 year electric money experiment will make us all billionaires in no time, and trillionaires in a few years or decade. has amerika “won” a war for the amerikan people in past 75 years?
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
….. western msm nor Russia Today (on Rumble) is talking about the Bakhmut battlefield these days ….What s going on ? Weird, if you ask me …
bit of a pause. Russia waiting for UA to commit reserves to deblocking either Avdeevka or Bakhmut envelope, to concentrate on the other one.
Billy
1 year ago
This is one topic that brings out the passion in a lot of us. Everyone here seems like problem solvers so we all want to contribute and try our best. I find that very difficult when it seems that every nation has biased-one sided news. So we really don’t know the full truth.
especially when one has been western msm brainwashed…..
John C
1 year ago
I’m astonished at the casualness with which people talk about war, as if it’s containable: all you need do is bulldoze corpses and civil order returns to normal. I’m especially knocked over by your quote from the editorial board of the WSJ, for which page I wrote a number of left-baiting and SEC-baiting articles in the mid-to-late ’80s. Maybe it’s been too long since I read the thing. But what possible value can Americans hope to gain by tempting war for a trivial kleptocracy? In that southern arc, nominal per cap GDPs border on the Third World’s. Besides not having liberalized in the last thirty years, the populations appear never to have gotten over the visceral joy of murdering neighboring ethnic tribes (almost any tribe, it seems, considering the Chechnyans’ turnabout). In purely pragmatic terms, it’s hard to imagine a more poisoned gift to Putin than ownership of Ukraine. And this is our line in the sand–not just for Biden and his think-tank army but for the Wall Street Journal?
“…as if it’s containable: all you need do is bulldoze corpses and civil order returns to normal.”
This is what was expected of Ukraine, it wouldn’t be a problem but for Crimea and Georgia before it.
I appreciate your point, but when despots depend on our fear or complacency and get results, they push harder each time after.
Think of North Korea, Islamic extremists, Iran, China, not just Putin, just like we learn in High School, if you don’t stand up for yourself, more come after.
There was the sticky problem of fighting for independence so you can keep slavery. Kind of makes you lose the moral high ground even in the 19th Century.
I don’t think Russia or China care very much about your feelings. The US just isn’t a factor any more. The world has moved on, and the US is left in the dark telling itself how great it is over and over…
The problem is half the country thinks Trump was elected because of Putin. The 2nd Tuesday in Nov 2016 was the worst day in their lives. The first time they were denied a trophy. No matter how much Trump has been acquitted, they will never accept the facts.
Ted.Starchild
1 year ago
Question One: Oh, I suppose Russia will sit back and let that happen in
its backyard just like the US allowed Russian missiles in Cuba. Right?
Answer One: Wrong premise. Cuban missiles was nuclear “first strike” missiles designed to decapitate United States in single strike. Missile in article is conventional missile with slightly longer range. It can destroy few ammo dumps further from front lines and that is it.
Question Two: Would shooting down manned Russian aircraft near the Russian border stop WWIII or help start it?
Answer Two: Will stop WWIII. Because Russians see failure to retaliate as sign of weakness and invitation to apply more pressure on US. Without strong response Russians will do something really stupid sooner or later with full assumption that US will cave-in. And US will be forced to retaliate. For example Russian propaganda TV discussed invasion on Baltic States, bombing refineries in Netherlands, attacking US aircraft and US military bases in Europe. Just few days ago “expert” suggested that Russia should invade Turkey and to take back Constantinople (nowadays known as Istanbul, capital of Turkey). All those things are said with implicit assumption that no one dare to retaliate against Russia.
Honestly I have suggestion for Mish (and all other americans) to watch “Russian Media Monitor” either on Twitter or Youtube. That channel posts clips from major Russian TV propagandists with added English subtitles. After binge-watching those clips you will have better understanding about how Russia thinks and operates.
Russian Media Monitor is funny because it is a great example of how media pundits can get so wrapped up in the issue that their reasoning becomes more and more absurd. We also see something similar with TV pundits in the US with especially Woke views. The most rabid Russian pundits like their American counterparts also have the lowest viewerships.
No, I am saying that TV pundits in every country are so scared of losing their cushy jobs that they circle down into absurdities in their endeavor to make themselves stand out. Anyone with a backbone would have left that business long ago leaving only the scum to carry on on TV. I am sure you have noticed it. It is a characteristic of modern media and it is funny that Russian TV and mainstream TV in the West are in many ways dominated by the same type of personalities. Also I will like to point out that in both systems the number of people who watch their programs is very small. People get their news from other sources than from TV. I am sure you noticed it too. I am also sure that if you watch these programs you watch them for the entertainment value and not for information.
I wonder if the captive indoctrinati in Russia, is also so far gone, that they manage to contort themselves into regurgitating, that cruising around next to the US in military planes and shooting down American planes there, is some sort of reliably meas of promoting peace…….. I somehow doubt that, although I bet the Kremlin would love it, if people bought their silly propaganda quite that wholesale.
“…Russians see failure to retaliate as sign of weakness and invitation to apply more pressure on US.”
You’re absolutely correct, the more Putin takes without resistance, the more he will take.
Robert Kraft, owner of the N.E. Patriots had an interesting interaction with Putin, Google the story about Kraft’s Superbowl ring and Putin, it says all there is to know about Putin’s nature.
So Russia has TV feed that is as crazy as Fox and ONN and a few Republicans. The situation of the war in Ukraine will have made it obvious to even the most adventurous of those with actual power that the Russian military isn’t a world beater. I doubt they had any ambitions beyond NovoRussia.
Though any small states on the border would certainly be at risk if they poke the bear.
The US showed what happens to small states in the Americas that don’t toe the masters line.
=Russians see failure to retaliate as sign of weakness and invitation to apply more pressure on US.
teddy, my little obnoxious chicken shi$$t!
how is that Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq , etc doing ? still winning?
—-
have you been recently in Chicago, Baltimore, St. Louis, etc? Sunday evening perhaps? middle of some housing project?
——–
mo$ron.
do you even understand that 40+ mil of adults in USA are on food stamps ?? or 60% of Americans cant afford 1000$ emergency expense?
or fact that USA budget deficit will be 2+trln in perpetually? on top of already accumulated 31.5 trln gov debt $$?
alx
Portlander2
1 year ago
The sad thing is that the MIC is spending money on weapons that are too complex, too expensive, and require too much training, maintenance, etc. to use effectively in battle conditions.
Oh, and did I mention, we are out of the most basic things for Ukraine–artillery pieces and artillery shells? Yes, we need to go back to WW II basics! This war is effectively “disarmig” NATO, and Graham wants to effectively disarm us of our long-range missiles too?He’s insanse–wanting to double down on a losing strategy. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
In short, we shouldn’t be spending one more dime on the MIC until weapons development and procurement doctrines are overhauled so they reflect national interests rather than MIC profits.
Casual_Observer2020
1 year ago
OT – more evidence that speculation in crypto assets are what are causing bank failures. Basically these high net worth account holders were funding bank’s speculation in cryptocurrency. Signature Bank had upwards of $60B (about half the bank’s assets) in speculative assets that are were not part of the NYCB transaction. The FED, treasury and FDIC are holding about $65B of Signature Bank that appear to mostly be cryptocurrency assets. So now they are basically bailing out banks that speculated in cryptocurrency and allowing account holders to get their money back. This banking crisis is being caused by speculation in cryptocurrencies by medium sized banks that took risks to get a better return. What else is underneath the covers ?
Bailing out the banks? Are the directors, the banks’ bondholders and shareholders bailed out? No, they lost everything and more because not only will they have the SEC and the Justice department on their tails but also a lot of civil suites are being set up. Would you want to be one of them now? I certainly wouldn’t.
They’re bailing out “depositors” dumb, or nonchalant and careless, enough to lend money so that “banks” could speculate. Amounts to exactly the same thing. No bailouts nor backstops nor “insurance”, would mean no deposits in anything but “Mish”-Banks (fully reserved ones. Audited hourly. Executive dresscode specifying prefitted noose, just in case of any hint of hanky-panky). Hence, then “executives” would not speculate.
Besides, those “executives” will not make depositors whole, no matter how many kangaroo-court “lawsuits.” Heck, they won’t even do all they possibly could to make depositors whole. Including such obvious doozies as selling off kidneys nor pimping their kids to pedophiles. Instead, these “executives” will still end up living wealthier than many/most of those who now will be forced to pitch in to bail “depositors” out by way of taxes, loss of services and debasement. Include malnourished children, who as a result will face higher prices for even basic food items.
The clowns/”executives” may now be a bit less well off than they were prior to their dimwittedness blowing up in their, or more like other people’s, face. But as some sort of deterrence, it’s not even in the same zipcode as simply stringing them up from lampposts. Which would be a lot cheaper too. As would simply leaving the yahoos handing them money (which, at least indirectly, includes me…) to take their/our losses and reap as they/we sowed.
Zardoz
1 year ago
WWIII Started a year ago when Russia invaded Ukraine because Russia got rejected and got their feelings hurt. Or maybe it was to rebuild the Soviet empire, the collapse of which Putin calls the greatest tragedy of history.
You can’t un-ring that bell. Whatever the cause, the current strategy of providing ammo to the Ukrainians to put into waves of Russians as they rush across open fields halfway across planet is a relatively inexpensive method of depleting Russia’s military capacity, so that we may ultimately defeat them with little loss of American life. This is an America First strategy all the way.
Don’t count on that. There is still plenty in stock with more in the pipeline. Also as in all big wars, the money going into new military technology in the US, Europe and Japan is quasi unlimited now.
“There is still plenty in stock with more in the pipeline.”
You’re living in a dream world. Ukraine needs the ammo now, the cupboard is bare, and the pipeline will be a trickle compared to Ukraine’s needs. We are, as usual, a day late and a dollar short of what’s really needed.
We had since 2008 to prepare for a war in Ukraine (after Putin’s invasion of Georgia). We blew it. Graham and Congress blew it. Ukraine is paying the price. And now Graham wants the world to pay the price–with WW III? He’s insane and dangerous. Ukraine will end no differently than Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. We need to face these facts.
A lot of money. For example a huge development, for many years, to build a plane for 1500 billions$ (at least), that can be shot by a missile that did cost 1000 less…
Rather it appears that Russia is running out of equipment–I mean they dropped fuel on that drone, and then crashed into it… It would’ve made more sense to just shoot it down. Unless, of course, dropping fuel had symbolic value…
In the sort of idiotopian sillyworlds where ambulance chasers have influence; “dropping fuel” is deemed and held and decided and felt and judged to be a “lesser” aggression than dropping something more useful.
You do realize that prior to the invasion, ethnic Russians were being ruthlessly attacked by Ukrainian forces in the Donbas region. Had been going on for years.
Who am I kidding? of course you didn’t know. CNN would never report anything not sanctioned by the US state department.
You mean when Russia invaded the first time, took over Crimea using “little green men” and tried to take over much more but got stalled? The war started started then. There has been attacks over the stalled point for years from BOTH sides but who invaded who?
By your thinking, the US did NOT engineer a political outcome in Ukraine that would further the interests of the US military-industrial complex., or you are naive despite your often-very-thoughtful comments.
You are assuming that influencing other countries is the domain of only one side. The reality is that every country is always trying to influence all other countries in order to what I guess one would call improving their position. The US, the EU and Russia were trying to influence Ukraine each one to their side and that is normal behavior for countries. What is abnormal is when instead of influencing by normal accepted methods a country invades with military force. When one country feels its influence is slipping away the normal reaction is to do something drastic like invasion but that is more often a temporary solution that creates a long-term problem because although you may get what you want the people you invaded gets a vote also and often they do not like being invade. Iraq was abnormal behavior by the US for example. The invasion was easy but the aftermath was not. If the truth about WMD had been known, no invasion would have taken place but that was hidden. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is abnormal too in that it created more problems than it solved because the population did not like being invaded. If someone with a brain had been in charge of Russia he would have looked at the long game and played on common history, similar language and customs and so forth. Basically sweet-talk them back even if it takes years to have them seeing you as family although separate. Instead Putin made Ukraine a mortal enemy for generations. During the US Civil War some in the British government were toying with the idea of recognizing and helping the South for geopolitical reasons. Abraham Lincoln got wind of it and sent a letter to Queen Victoria. In it he said the we are the only people on Earth who because of blood ties, shared language and customs and similar ideas of government have a natural inclination to like you. Do you really want to make enemies of us? Queen Victoria saw the long view and quickly cut off any talk and thought at Whitehall of helping or recognizing the South and we know that it was a wise decision. Putin turned what could have been his best ally into his worst enemy. That is why people just couldn’t believe that he would do something so stupid but he did. He turned a temporary setback into a quasi-permanent problem. He is really dumb.
Correct. Everyone against the West assumes that everyone else is “playing fair”. BS.
Also, if you don’t like the West. Leave. We will see your children brainwashed into non competitive systems that are thrashing around in their death throes.
Your comment makes some sense , however , when Abraham Lincoln and queen Victoria wrote letters to each other , a criminal superfluous organisation, NATO is its name , did NOT EXIST ! That s the problem today !
The invasion started in 2014. To ignore that is to misinterpret everything that has happened since.
Everybody has invaded everybody else at one time in history. Everybody invaded Germany for centuries and that provoked the German principalities to unite and then they invaded everybody else. After WW II European nations got together to avoid another round of bloodletting and it worked for 78 years and then Russia invaded Ukraine and brought back the demonic behavior that Europe had renounced. Russia brought it back to the continent and the Europeans are very very pissed off that that they did it and they will not let this go unpunished. For them it is existential now.
They took back Crimea because it has belonged to Russia since Katherine the great. Kruchev gave it to Ukraine as a symbolic gesture, at a party where it wa rumored that he was drunk. Anyway it was irrelevant as it was all under the umbrella of the USSR. When the Cia instigated the Maiden revolution in 2014 the Russias rightfully reclaimed it. They have their Black Sea navel base there. Also most of the inhabitants of Crimea are Russia and are pro Russia. If you want to educate yourself self on this read David Stockmans article “Pearl Harbour my eye” It will enlighten you.
Russia is just the last conqueror of Crimea that contains a long list of those who had conquered it before going back millennia. If Ukraine kicks out Russia from the Crimea then it will belong to them. Before it was Russian it belonged to the Crimean Tartars most of which were deported from Crimea and replaced by Russians. Shall I go on? The Goths used to own Crimea too. They left it to invade the Roman Empire but they did like the weather there.
Right by conquest is not a Right. It is just a statement of fact and that fact can change when someone moves in or back in. If you can’t hold it you lose it.
Either your knowledge of history is shockingly deficient, or you are a stooge for the propaganda media. No one’s hands are clean in this mess. That marginally intelligent politicians, and politically appointed military leaders can determine whether millions of US citizens survive even a limited nuclear exchange should alarm any thinking person. This is NOT a video game.
Back in the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union, Ukraine signed an agreement with the Russian Federation to give up the nukes that were based in their country in exchange for security guarantees. We see how that worked out. Putin is a thug, a liar and a murderer. I’m surprised so many so-called patriotic Americans support him.
I’m against war but the Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves. Give them the tools they need.
People in Crimea and Donbass don’t think they are Ukrainians. A big part of the soldiers on the Russian side come from these regions. And they think also that they defend themselves.
You mean the referendum that Russia set up after they invaded Crimea and Donbass? The referendum that took place when the URSS fell showed different results but hey, a few thousand foreign soldiers occupying the area can do wonders for referendum results. Don’t you agree?
“People in Crimea and Donbass don’t think they are Ukrainians.”
Really? Have you seen videos of enthusiastic residents of Kherson meeting Ukrainian army? Those are same allegedly “pro-Russian” or “Russian” residents that allegedly love Russia so much. You should not believe everything that is produced by Russian propaganda.
Of course, there might be some pro-Ukraine elements still living there. But even as far back as in 2010, the region was 65-35 or 70-30 in favor of Russia.
Ignore the fact that Pro-Russians in Kherson are bleeding the Ukrainian military in Kherson…
Daily ambushes of Ukrainian check points and convoys all over Kherson..
This coming from the Ukrainian General in charge of Kherson, constantly complaining in interviews, that his troops have been under constant attack, after they retook Kherson..
These are attacks on the ground inside Kherson, not long range or short range artillery and missile attacks!!!
Ukraine never had nukes. The nuclear weapons stationed in Ukraine belonged to the Soviet Armed Forces and were controlled by Moscow, Ukraine could not even detonate them if they wanted to. Post 1991 Russia was recognized as the successor state of the Soviet Union retaining its permanent seat in the Security Council of the UN. Let’s not distort history.
Ukraine’s nukes were taken away because the West was worried that the corrupt Ukrainians (is there another kind?!) would sell the nuclear fissile material to terrorist groups in the black market.
“….the Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves. Give them the tools they need.”
And you have the right to give them, or Putin, or anyone, any tool you feel like. As do any other individual, or individuals.
But the US government has no right to give anyone anything. After all, not only they have nothing to give. When they talk of “giving”, what they are actually saying is “we’re going to take from Americans, in order to give our lobbyists 90% of the money, so that they can pocket 30% to 80% of it and pass the rest to some tinpot in some foreign country. “Giving” properly means giving your own stuff. Like Lindsey giving his lipbalm, perhaps. Only in trivially obvious charlatanian Newspeak, does “giving” mean taking from third parties without obtaining their explicit consent.
Besides, the US Government has no business doing anything whatsoever, aside from trading freely with all, and entering into entangling alliances with None. They just might have had a case to get involved, if Putins dark forces had taken Long Island rather than Crimea. Although even that would really be a more appropriate job for the local Long Island militia. No real reason to drag taxpayers in California into it.
Toutatis
1 year ago
In the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, the hawks were the military, and now it’s the politicians. Maybe the in the Pentagon the balance of power is better estimated.
Webej
1 year ago
The Army tactical missile system (atacms), touted as the 29th wunderwaffen game-changer, would actually make no difference. The Russians have become proficient in shooting down about 90% of the GMLRS rockets launched from HiMars and MLRS 270 systems.
Atacms would be easier to intercept and make the launch system more vulnerable.
Correction: They would change something. Russia has said they need a buffer beyond their own sovereign borders of a distance equivalent to the reach of any weapons systems in UA possession. Atacms would leave Ukraine even less & very little territory.
Toutatis
1 year ago
Probably Graham knows nothing about Sarmat RS-28 and some other toys that the Russians have.
More likely he does know, yet figures the US will prevail in any conflict, while the destruction of a few major US cities will reduce the number of democrats at the polls in 2024.
“Probably Graham knows nothing about Sarmat RS-28 and some other toys that the Russians have.”
Nuclear armed toys are completely irrelevant. In mass nuclear war there is only once outcome. Ant that outcome includes fact that Russia will cease to exist. This is one major reason why Russia will not start WW3.
“The RS-28 Sarmat (Russian: РС-28 Сармат,[4] named after the Sarmatians;[5] NATO reporting name: SS-X-29[6] or SS-X-30[7]), often unofficially called Satan II by some media outlets, is a Russian liquid-fueled, MIRV-equipped super-heavy intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM)…”
The Sarmat carries the Avangard hypersonic glide vehicle which is what people consider to be the sexy new weapon. The Sarmat itself is an upgraded ICBM and its importance is in what it carries. I should have said the Avangard and not the Sarmat. My mistake.
Yes that is right but there has been only one test of the vehicle that was rendered public so it is not sure if it works or not. China did do a very credible test of the same type vehicle and it went half around the world and came to only a few kilometers from the target. That was impressive. By the way the head scientist of the Avangard project in Russia is in prison for passing information about the project to the Chinese.
Biden could have walked away from it, and allow Ukraine to be a neutral country, but his neocon advisers told him: you can just kick in the door, and the Russian economy will crumble.
Apart from the Bidens’ obvious financial dealings now being uncovered and revealed to the public, no one knows how much, if any ‘dirt’ remains unreleased. What is clear, though, is the vast and ongoing coverup of the Bidens by US government insiders and the media.
That the groundwork for corruption (in the Ukraine) was done by Biden as vice-president- is important. One of the few times Obama was right–Biden can screw anything up.
Are you unaware of Hunter’s gig at Burisma? And how Joe bragged about firing the person in charge of investigating them? if you want US money, you have to fire him, said joe. Never seen the video?
You need to find actual news sources and stop watching CNN. Like everyone else has.
hmk
1 year ago
Mish they have not gone mad. Its their money masters who want this. This is the epitome of the corrupt crony capitalist political system. One start besides hanging them all would be a one term limit and elinimating any form of donations to these evil corrupt politicans.
Term limits don’ change the underlying issue: Russia and America are no longer able to compete at producing anything of value to anyone. OTHER than weapons and warfare. Hence, in ever more desperate spasms aimed at stay relevant, they are running around the world trying to militarise everywhere and everything; since only then do either one of them retain any remaining significance at all.
Casual_Observer2020
1 year ago
If Ukraine had missiles that could reach Moscow, it would be the end of civilization as we know it. Anyone supporting this idea is out of their mind. The better idea is to destabilize the government in Moscow and foment a revolution by Russians themselves.
If Ukraine had kept its nukes and not signed them away in exchange of territorial integrity guarantees from the US, UK and Russia at the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 then Russia wouldn’t have dared invading them.
It never had operational possession. No codes to actually fire the things. No ability to maintain them.
People were mainly concerned about the fissile material going underground, with regard to Russia, but even more with regard to the hopelessly corrupt UA.
Don’t need codes if you have the plutonium and missiles to put them on. It’s just a question of retooling and Ukraine had the tools to do so. The worry at the time was not that Russia would invade Ukraine. That worry came later. Free nukes will be a worry when Russia loses the war.
I firmly absolutely 100% believe that if Russia invaded Poland and the US stood by and did nothing that the rest of Europe would let Poland go. In other words without the US backing, the rest of Europe’s military is a paper tiger and the leaders in France and England would not risk Paris and London being nuked for Poland.
Yes it is so if Russia fires on them then it will get very interesting. Europe has two nuclear powers and most the others could make a bomb over the weekend. That you may firmly believe something doesn’t mean it will go that way. Putin firmly believed that the Europeans would do nothing like you did. He was wrong. Europe, the US and Canada are in a collective defense agreement for just that reason, to defend against invasion from the Soviet Union and its successor the Russian Federation. It is working as intended.
I love how you believe you can make a bomb over the weekend. One of the most complex endeavors in human history is now nothing more than a weekend of work. It would take months if not years for the rest of Europe to make a bomb. The material is very hard to come by and building an actual bomb from that material takes a lot more engineering than a weekend of work plus you need delivery systems etc. I doubt someone like Spain could make 1 in less than several years.
The Europeans actually have done nothing. All they did was stop buying Russian products and gave away old obsolete military stuff to Ukraine. The US is providing the bulk of the effort (money, equipment and military intelligence). If the US had done nothing the war would already be finished. Yes, the US is part of the alliance but the US is also not a part of Europe. Europe talks tough in the same manner that the small guy in the bar talks tough when standing next to his 6’4 friend.
It’s been over a year now. If Europe really believed in the Russian threat then every country would have upgraded it’s military significantly (man power and equipment). Yet none have done anything of the sort.
A bomb is easy to make if you have the plutonium and access to precision machine tools and Europe has both in quantity. The physics is well-defined as well as the mechanics. A weekend may be an exaggeration but if felt sufficiently threatened virtually all of the Western European countries with advanced economies could build a few much quicker than you think.
If you want to discuss the list of equipment Europe is providing and rather if is all the old stuff then let’s do it tomorrow. It’s late here and I am going to bed. By the way orders for military equipment from European countries to European companies is going through the roof. More on that later.
Alternatively, get past the media presentation of Putin as evil–the same media that presented Trump as evil, and global warming, and…..
At this time, the US goal should be to separate Russia and China, and vassal states. NOT FORCE THEM CLOSER TOGETHER.
Matt3
1 year ago
If you have noticed, the Republican likely seeking the Presidential nomination are not talking like the DC republicans. I guess they realize that the people that will vote don’t want endless war or an endless $ flowing to Ukraine.
Hopefully, some one will actually want to look at defense spending and rationalize this to what we must have and what we are willing to pay for. It’s filled with tons of waste. Last time I heard they had lost rack of $1 trillion!!
Doubtful but I can dream.
Directed Energy
1 year ago
We have allowed ourselves to get too far behind China for comfort, in too many defense arenas. Look at how much winning the Cold War benefited America, now it’s time to double down and crush China. This is not a joke, our way of life is at stake no different than it was the last time the red commies were a threat.
Defense spending should double immediately, with a “moon landing” effort to out-tech China.
The US couldn’t win in Vietnam or Afghanistan, so their chances against a far larger and technologically superior China are really not good. It will be just another humiliation after their failure in Ukraine.
Get your facts straight. The USSR and Japan were not at war and traded together during the war. After the war ended in Europe the USSR declared war on Japan and rolled up the Manchuria garrison which had not been able to receive supplies for quite some time because of American submarines and because Japan was fighting everywhere else except in Manchuria because they were at peace with the Soviet Union. It was a cakewalk.
I have read a fair amount of articles, one in particular by Peter Zeihan, that puts China’s military capacity into perspective. They are in NO way superior to ours, not even close. Quit listening to corrupt evil neocons. Don’t be brainwashed by propagand from the politburo. These people will lead us into terminal destruction to line their own pockets. They are traitors and should be dealt with as a traitor would be.
LOL, you do come up with some good ones now and then.
TexasTim65
1 year ago
The more advanced the equipment the US sends to Ukraine, the more terrible the price the Ukrainian people are going to be paying.
Make no mistake, the US and the rest of Europe are paying no price other than a small inconvenience of more expensive gas / oil and donating some old military surplus equipment.
But the longer this war drags on, the more Ukrainians that are bring killed /maimed and the more their country is being destroyed piece by piece. Sending long range missiles would mean that Russia would be sending long range missile strikes deeper into Ukraine to knock out the US supplied equipment. That means more deaths and more physical destruction of infrastructure etc.
Eventually there is going to be a lost generation of Ukrainian men once all the military aged men are dead / maimed.
war is business and business is good , ….especially so with a social/ financial system on the brink of collapse, always a motive for a good healthy war , history shows ….
You are in the camp of those wish Russia to take over Ukraine, the the Baltics, Poland and whatever else they can grab. When you lose a war and are occupied, the suffering doesn’t stop but has only just begun and it gets much worse. Europeans remember that. That’s why they support Ukraine. It’s quite simple.
I didn’t resuscitate it. Putin did it and the countries around Russia believe in it by direct experience with Russia. Why do you think they joined Nato as early as they could and why did Sweden and Finland are doing the same thing now. Are you accusing them of unjustified paranoia? I would say they know Russian intentions better than you.
Their politicians are being bribed by the CIA which has been standard practice for decades in Western Europe. Intelligent presidents from Eisenhower through Reagan and Trump tried to reduce tensions with Russia. Our current idiot president and some of his predecessors keep poking the bear.
I really don’t care whether they occupy Ukraine and attempt to hold it or merely affect regime change in Ukraine. There is nothing in the Ukraine that matters to me or my family.
As I’ve stated in multiple threads, if you want to support Ukraine and believe Russia is an existential threat, pick up a rife and stand a post. Or send them nuclear weapon and the blessing to use them. A couple million soldiers from France, Germany, England, Spain etc and/or Nukes from France/England entering Ukraine would end the war tomorrow one way or another (Russia capitulates, Ukraine capitulates, Europe is destroyed entirely).
Otherwise your basically like parents who keep giving their kids matches to play with and bandaging up their hands and bodies each time they burn themselves hoping that they master fire before they burn themselves to death.
It seems you don’t get it. More confrontation is clearly not working. Already-corrupt Ukraine is being worn down to an impoverished state.
Perhaps the US needs to try an alternative approach–go to the UN with a proposal to make Ukraine a neutral state under the UN umbrella. Enable to relocation of people as they desire. If the alternative is WW3–most of Europe will be destroyed.
Beyond the number of bodies, we can calculate exactly what it would cost Ukraine.
Russia has said they need a buffer beyond their own sovereign borders of a distance equivalent to the reach of any weapons systems in UA possession. Atacms would leave Ukraine even less & very little territory.
The US just wont let it go. We’re going to pay the price for these bullheaded jackasses.
Webej
1 year ago
1. The drone is flying in a de facto no-fly zone, where it is a belligerent. This is not some routine spy operation, the drone is acquiring target co-ordinates which the US command & control overseeing UA efforts uses to kill Russians.
Whence the indignation?
2. Were the US to shoot down a Russian fighter, there is a very good chance Russia would send a missile salvo to hit the base it was fired from, or, if a ship, sink the ship. They will be successful, since they have missiles which the US is not only unable to interdict, but even to detect.
Then what? Will Lindsay be calmed?
Not everyone has gone mad, but obviously we now live in a world of serial directed mass psychoses.
But they destroyed the drone in a reckless and environmentally destructive way.
This is the thing that really irks me about the Nazis. it wasn’t that they killed 6 million in concentration camps. It’s that they burnt the bodies instead of making compost out of them.
The drone was flying in international airspace over international waters. Drone has unquestionable legal right to be there. Attack on drone was gross violation of international law. Failure to properly answer sets very bad precedent.
No. Flying through ADIZ with restrictions published in advance.
Common for countries to declare a zone in open waters for a naval exercise — enter at your peril.
In this case the US is also a belligerent, just as it is in Syria or Iraq, since US never declares wars.
Mjs357
1 year ago
The only question left: Does Putin have anything left to lose or nothing else to lose? If he has nothing, he is most dangerous of course. Go ahead, test those red lines Lindsey… The “budget” is no budget no matter debt of deficit. The budget is a mere blank check to partisan special interests. The money does almost nothing to benefit our daily lives or our kids’ future.
HippyDippy
1 year ago
I wonder if Vegas has started posting odds on when this joke of a government will collapse.
Doug78
1 year ago
“Question One: Oh, I suppose Russia will sit back and let that happen in its backyard just like the US allowed Russian missiles in Cuba. Right?”
Since you are putting yourself in Russia’s head let me ask you to put yourself in Ukraine’s head and then ask yourself what would you do and why.
“Question Two: Would shooting down manned Russian aircraft near the Russian border stop WWIII or help start it?”
The shooting down of unmanned drones is fairly common and doesn’t lead to open war. Shooting down a manned aircraft may or may not depending on the circumstances.
“Question Three: Has everyone gone mad?”
That depends on your definition of mad which is highly subjective. Theses days Republicans think Democrats are mad and Democrats think Republicans are mad and they both think Libertarians are mad. Many thought Putin was mad to invade Ukraine but there is no reason to put it down to madness rather than to a gross miscalculation.
LOL ! Do you really want a list of American warcrimes ?! ”Only” a couple of million in the Middle East ! That enough for you ? As their skin was slightly darker than Ukrainians , that should be irrelevant of course …..Ignoramus , that s what you are ….
The US killed plenty of civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan to mention just a few. The poliburo keeps it quiet so the sheep remain blissfully ignorant.
Question Four : WHY did Putin invade Ukraine ?? Was it the consequence of yet another NATO=USA= CIA orchestrated coup with the one and only motive of debilitating Russia ?
Question Five : WHY did the US invade Iraq 20 years ago ? Got a few more questions but I ll stop here as I don t want to embarrass you much more …..Btw , ‘miscalculation’ is beginning to look more and more like a N(azi) A(dhering) T(errorist) O(rganisation) problem if you ask me ….but then again, I may be kind of biased , I admit …
I am sorry, you make me laugh all of the time with your silly remarks …..If you offered to leave(but didn t ), after 17 years of messing up, when Soleimani got killed , Putin s still got some scope left then….
America was lied to about WMD’s, a war was started under false pretense, but unlike Putin, Americans weren’t threatened with prison for protesting it, and, in case you missed it, we’re no longer there, we’re not annexing other countries.
America was lied to about WMD s, hahahahaha how f gullible, by whom were they lied to then? ! By the same deep state creeps waging war against Russia now ? People tend to get p*ssed when faced with the truth, don t they ? Smart guy .
Putin invaded Ukraine because he wants it obviously.
Invading Iraq was a big error but the object was never to be there forever not erase its existence as a people and a culture like Russia wants to do with Ukraine.
Really Halfra, you should stop making believe that you are a viking. It’s gone to your head.
Most of the people in the areas “invaded” speak Russian. The Ukrainian government is outlawing the Russian language, closing churches, arresting dissenters and imprisoning opposition politicians. Tell me about how Ukraine is a “democracy”?
Look up the “war crimes in the Donbass and see who, until the invasion, was considered the perpetrators.
Ukraine is totally corrupt and is the perfect money laundering location for our “elected leaders – both parties”. So to protect and grow the graft, Ukrainians and Russians must die.
Pretty piss poor rebuttal. You might want to try utilizing a fact or two.
How about you spend and support whomever you want with your money and your life? I have no interest in this fight and would rather see peace and less loss of life.
If we are the great democracy, then why don’t we follow what the people want?
yeah right, fools, relentlessly brainwashed by CNN …..most of them can t even indicate basketcase Ukraine on a map….Can you ? Btw Kiev is merely a two hours flight from Brussels, Why don t your Deep State mthr****** just stay out of our backyard ?!
Support came to the Ukraine from the US and Europe when Ukraine demonstrated by blood that they were willing to fight for their existence against an invader. For some reason you object that the US and Europe helps them and since they do supply equipment they obviously have some influence so what is the problem?
We had the power to end it by advising Ukraine that it will :1 remain neutral and not allow nukes into its country which Zelensky blatantly wanted to do. 2: stop the Ukrainian neo nazi Azov battalion from ethnic cleansing/genocied of the ethnic Russians in the current area of conflict, ie Eastern Ukraine. 3. Not instigated a coup in 2014 led and paid for by the CIA to overthrow a corroupt pro Russian leader and replace him with a courrupt pro US leader. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on earth, look it up. Alwasys in the top 20. Geez wherreever we intervene, we make life miserable for those countries citizens. Nothing but death and destruction. But I guess its worth it as long as the oligarchs and corrupt politicians here benefit.
The war has become a brutal battle of attrition with each side trying to outlast the other. I think Putin holds the key and at the moment it appears that he thinks Russia will outlast.
What should happen is that Ukraine becomes a neutral country, but that seems like a remote possibility as neither side is willing to buy in.
In this case I was merely replying to your question about ‘what would Ukraine do’ by stating that Ukraine has no opinion of it’s own. It’s simply a puppet at this point of the US and dances to it’s masters wishes.
Incidentally, the rest of Europe does that same because if the US withdrew from NATO and Europe was forced to defend itself, it couldn’t beyond using Nukes.
It is very nice to be against war in general. I am too. I am also against violence and if I see the neighborhood bully beating the crap of of you according to you I should express my sincere sympathy to you and just walk on by. Some do not believe in collective defense because it does generate obligations (on all sides) and that is difficult to manage. It would be nice to be left alone in splendid isolation but we live in a world with others, some not very nice at all, so like it or not we have to deal with it. Having friends and allies is much better than not having them at all.
Actually Europe can defend itself against Russia. It have easily the industrial plant and the population to do it. Thanks to Russia in several countries the population is for conscription if necessary. Most European counties dropped it well after the US did so the manpower potential in Europe is way more than Russia’s. We are talking about 500 million people vs 145 million. Who would win that contest?
“Since you are putting yourself in Russia’s head let me ask you to put yourself in Ukraine’s head and then ask yourself what would you do and why.”
Answer my question “Question One: Oh, I suppose Russia will sit back and let that happen in its backyard just like the US allowed Russian missiles in Cuba. Right?”
How the Flying F is that defending Russia. I asked a question. Answer it please.
“The shooting down of unmanned drones is fairly common and doesn’t lead to open war. Shooting down a manned aircraft may or may not depending on the circumstances.”
It was Russia that disabled a drone. It is the US threatening manned planes. Apparently you cannot read.
I took it that he was agreeing with you. Russia shooting down a drone won’t lead to war, but if the US shoots down a manned Russian fighter, it might lead to one.
As for the war itself, if I put myself in the heads of both sides, I don’t see any possible resolution, at least in the short run. Ukraine is willing to fight for it’s existence, and unwilling to leave itself open to further incursions. Russia doesn’t think Ukraine should exist, and thinks that territory should rightly be Russian. Russia might concede the right of a smaller Ukraine to exist, but only it they have no defense. Ukraine might concede part of it’s territory, but only if allowed to join NATO so as to be sure they don’t get invaded again. There is no middle ground on which to base a peace.
Your question is not a question but a statement that Russia will mirror what happened in the Cuban missile crisis when that was long ago with a different regime in Russia now. Then there was a Politburo where a small group would discuss and fight over actions to take. In Russia there is no Politburo and only Putin decides. Secondly and more importantly Europe is intimately involved since it is happening on their doorstep. Back then they were spectators. In all you can’t use that Crisis because it is not analogous. Putin would love to have to deal only with the US but that is impossible. There are other players who are very much involved and they are far from being inconsequential so Putin’s gambit was flawed from the start. So to give you an answer Russia reacted to what they saw as a bad situation and probably did an action, invade Ukraine, that is probably the worst alternative possible seeing that he did not obtain his military objectives and that the long-term economic fallout on Russia will result in it being fragilized to such an extent that it will become just a regional power among others.
Yes I can read and I can write too. Russia did disable a drone in international airspace and some in Congress threatened to escort future drones with warplanes. Maybe that will happen, maybe not. It really depends on backchannel negotiations and not on what some Congressman wants. Nevertheless the drones will continue to spy on Crimea from international waters and certainly pass on some information to the Ukrainians. By the way Russian drones have been flying off the coast of Norway, Denmark and Sweden for a long time now and we haven’t shot any down. Do you propose that we do?
It’s too far for a drone but I have heard of balloons coming by. Unfortunately they don’t stay in international air space but fly over the country.
wmjack50
1 year ago
The DC Administrative State 95% Democrat Party members always wants war and chaos to generate money to feed their life style of graft and bribery—Congress comes and goes But they are always there protected by civil service rules until they retire and their children step in
That is the problem—the spoils system schedule F of Trump wished to replace the entrenched Democrats with Conservatives to reflect his goals but the GANG weaponizes their agencies to defeat the will of the American people–These parasites will have their agencies closed and their life style ended
KidHorn
1 year ago
Graham and McConnell are bozos. Democratic leadership is terrible, but so is republican leadership. Our only hope is if DeSantis wins.
When caught in these really dumb ideas, Congressfolks should be required to wear Bozo shoes, a Bozo wig and a Bozo nose for an entire week. This must not be limited to only one Congressperson at a time.
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its backyard just like the US allowed Russian missiles in Cuba. Right?
So Russia has TV feed that is as crazy as Fox and ONN and a few Republicans. The situation of the war in Ukraine will have made it obvious to even the most adventurous of those with actual power that the Russian military isn’t a world beater. I doubt they had any ambitions beyond NovoRussia.
Though any small states on the border would certainly be at risk if they poke the bear.
Right by conquest is not a Right. It is just a statement of fact and that fact can change when someone moves in or back in. If you can’t hold it you lose it.
The Black Sea navel base is the number one reason they wanted Crimea. The history is just for cover.
The Russians have become proficient in shooting down about 90% of the GMLRS rockets launched from HiMars and MLRS 270 systems.
Putin pense que c’est
sa potion
magique par Toutatis!
Be enslaved by Russia, or go down fighting. Which would you choose?
The US killed plenty of civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan to mention just a few. The poliburo keeps it quiet so the sheep remain blissfully ignorant.