Faith in College Education Has Plunged, and That’s a Very Good Thing

The Wall Street Journal has an excellent article on Losing Faith in College Education

A majority of Americans don’t think a college degree is worth the cost, according to a new Wall Street Journal-NORC poll, a new low in confidence in what has long been a hallmark of the American dream.  

Skepticism is strongest among people ages 18-34, and people with college degrees are among those whose opinions have soured the most, portending a profound shift for higher education in the years ahead. 

“These findings are indeed sobering for all of us in higher education, and in some ways, a wake-up call,” said Ted Mitchell, the president of the American Council on Education, which counts more than 1,700 institutions of higher education as members. “We need to do a better job at storytelling, but we need to improve our practice, that seems to me to be the only recipe I know of regaining public confidence.”

Dr. Mitchell cited student debt, which has reached $1.7 trillion, and the 60% graduation rate at four-year colleges as two of the biggest problems undermining confidence in the sector. 

Storytelling and Student Debt

Student debt is not the problem. The cost of college for what you get is the problem no matter how big of a storytelling tale one spins. 

Making college free will not fix the problem. It would make it worse. Student debt cancellation would make the problem worse as well.

Worth the Cost?

Over 60 percent of those age 18-34 think it is. And unless you get a degree in a high-skill area, it isn’t. 

Most degrees qualify you to work at a low paying leisure and hospitality or retail job. 

Those earning more than $100,000 a year thought their degree was worthwhile, and it likely was. 

Sad Debt Stories

The Journal notes the plight of Danielle Tobias, a 50-year-old dialysis technician in Lorain, Ohio.

Tobias got a degree in equine studies and graduated with $85,000 in student loan debt. 

She got a job in her field of study giving riding lessons, something she could have done without blowing $85,000.

With free training, Tobias now works as a dialysis technician. However, her student loan debt has ballooned to $145,000. She has made peace with the reality that she will likely die without having paid off her debt.

There are millions of people in similar plights with equally useless degrees. And these are the stores people need to hear, not rah rah college. 

Changing Attitudes

Changing attitudes about useless degrees is a much needed step in the right direction. 

Free college and student debt cancellation would do nothing but increase the cost of education and perpetuate millions of students getting useless degrees. 

Message of the Day

College isn’t for everyone, at least at these nonsensical prices for what you get.

I propose making student loans cancelable in bankruptcy. It would immediately put a big crimp the mass selling of useless degrees.

I am also in favor of more two-year degrees, trade apprenticeships, and studying abroad. 

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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oee
oee
1 year ago
who is going to train the doctors? lawyers? corporate management? govt workers? teachers? artists? You have no idea what you are talking about .
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
I disagree with the premise that what has changed is attitudes; in my opinion, what has changed is the education itself. Once upon a time, a college student either learned specific job skills (e.g. engineering, medicine) or they learned to think critically and creatively. There are still disciplines that involve job skills, but the learning of those skills has been eroded to some degree via grade inflation, and a trend towards boosting ego and confidence as opposed to so much focus on actual skills. In addition, at all levels, education has moved away from favoring critical and creative thought, and towards group-think.
It is not all on the colleges, though. Part of the blame goes to the funding method in particular. Back in the day, college facilities were not nearly as nice as they are now, but tuition was more affordable. That meant that it was possible to work your way through college, using a combination of scholarships and part time jobs. Every day when you did your part time job, you were reminded of the cost of college, and also why you wanted that education, so that, one you graduate, you could have a better job than the part time one. Today, the price for college is much higher, but the cost is less immediate. Sign the paper, the tuition is all paid, and you have money in your pocket. It is only later, when they apply for jobs, that a student realizes that they have created a lifetime debt that will burden them for a long time, and they wish they had studied harder, and gotten more out of their educational opportunity.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl_R
In the mid 90s, I dropped out of an engineering program to go seek my fortune in the Dotcom gold fields. Had found the courses fairly challenging… had to force myself to work a little harder than was comfortable to get it done. Went back about 8 years later to finish up and it was a breeze. I even took classes with requirements out of order and didn’t have any trouble at all… while doing IT and dev consulting full time.
Either I got smarter in those 8 years, or the program got dumbed down. I’m betting on the latter.
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Perhaps some of both, but I suspect that the real reason is not one of the two you gave. College in general is easier when you have a goal, when you are interested in learning, and when you understand why you need to know the material. When we rush people straight from high school to college, they often enter with a warped view of the real world, not knowing exactly why they are there, or what they want to do with their life, and, as a result, they focus on things like fraternities/sororities and on partying, rather than on learning. I’ve always thought that the single greatest thing we can do to improve the state of college education is to require people to work 1-2 years after high school before entering college.
Sober1994
Sober1994
1 year ago
When a business starts up and needs money, they must submit a business plan.
I think prospective students need a plan of study and career path.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Sober1994
Tough to make such a plan when you’re a scatterbrained teenager hopped up on hormones. They should work till 25, then go to college.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
“I am also in favor of more two-year degrees, trade apprenticeships, and studying abroad.”
I am in strong favor of obtaining a degree by qualifying examinations for those studying under mentors or capable of self-study.
vboring
vboring
1 year ago
Mortgages have a disclosure showing how much your loan will cost.
Colleges could be forced to provide the same for each degree area:
This will cost $XXX, you’ll pay $YYY over life, and the jobs this degree will qualify you for currently pay $ZZZ. There is also non-monetary value to this type of education.
Let people make informed decisions.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  vboring
That would be too much like letting people see the amount of peanut butter cups inside all those layers of packaging.
Greenmountain
Greenmountain
1 year ago
It is likely you will ultimately end up with two systems – the elite colleges for the wealthy and gifted students who will engage in a four year on- campus experience – and something for the rest of us. that may include some on campus time, but will also include work training and apprentice programs. The ride that colleges are on is ending as number of upcoming students slows (less kids), US continues it anti-immigration stand, and employers realize they can get good employees w/o degrees. Makes grades 1-12 even more important.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Greenmountain
Grades 1-12 are already a disaster.
Toutatis
Toutatis
1 year ago
I think that the problem is not only that of “useless” diplomas, i.e. that do
not lead to a suitable employment. It is also that of another kind of useless diplomas,
those who are supposed to justify the job occupied by the people that obtained them, but do
not correspond at all to the job held. I am thinking, for example, of the many graduates in
“political sciences” which occupy the economic “think tanks”, and above all the military and
geopolitics (now with the war in Ukraine). Most of these people are completely
incompetent, and have no training in what they are supposed to explain.
We also realize this in France, in a recent parliamentary commission of inquiry about
the debacle of nuclear energy in France. Disastrous decisions have been made
by completely incompetent people, who have been warned of the harmful consequences of their
decisions, by technicians who have been looked down upon.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Toutatis
Are you saying the Centre d’Études Diplomatiques et Stratégiques isn’t working out so well?
Think of all the disappointed parents.
prumbly
prumbly
1 year ago
Russia produces 454,000 engineering graduates every year, which is nearly DOUBLE the number the US produces (238,000) – despite Russia having half the population.
China produces 1.4 MILLION engineering graduates per year…
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
Yes Russian engineering is well known for its quality not like the shoddy sub-par engineering the Germans do. Anyone who has a choice would certainly choose Russian engineering over German, Dutch, American, Korean or Japanese engineering.
Toutatis
Toutatis
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Even American astronauts go to ISS with a Russian rocket. The last American hypersonic missile test failed miserably.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Toutatis
And now they use SpaceX rockets. In October 2022 SpaceX even sent a Russian astronaut to the Space Station. The Russian Soyuz was ahead of its time but hasn’t been upgraded for decades now. That prowess is gone. The last US hypersonic missile test was a failure but that was just one program out of five run directly by either the army, navy or airforce plus the US has under DARPA four more hypersonic missile programs several which have had successful tests. That Russia was able to make a scaled-down ICBM into a hypersonic (the Kinzhal) is not very impressive. The Zircon is impressive but there has been only one published test so it is doubtful that it really exists operationally.
Generally Russian’s engineering is not very good but in very limited areas like space it can be, or more appropriately, was decent. The proof is in the pudding they say. If Russian engineering was of world quality it would have been able to compete in the world market when the Soviet Union opened up but it couldn’t compete because Russians don’t make good equipment.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Interesting that you don’t mention the engineers graduated from the superb technical schools in India and Pakistan. /sarc
They still write most of our bulk software.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
They absolutely do not.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Yeah, you’re probably right.
A lot of it is done by Romanians, Poles, Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian, the Chinese, even Brazilians, etc., etc. etc..
Personally I like the Czech women engineers.
It’s not cost effective to pay $75k for an American engineer when you can get an honest equivalent (or better) in Eastern Europe for $35k.
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
The India Institute of Technology is likely one of the best universities in the world for engineering, and has been for a long time. Fortunately for the US, many of their graduates come to the US for the opportunities.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Especially on H1B visas that help keep American salary costs down.
While a few are very good, I wish that most had stayed home.
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
India Institute of Technology produces amazing engineers, but not that many of them, certainly not enough to influence American wages negatively. Many of them end as teachers at leading engineering schools, and they tend to be very good teachers. Some of my best engineering professors were from India. America needs many, many good engineers if they are going to prosper, and if some are from India, and others from India improve the education of American engineers, how can that be a bad thing?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
IMHO, it begins in basic arithmetic. Simply, the answer to a math problem is right or wrong. Get it wrong and a kid’s self-esteem goes down; and as we all know, self-esteem is CRUCIAL. That’s why all kids get trophies.
Next, the teachers–increasingly incompetent at teaching math, thanks to woke education.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Remember that Americans now have teachers that were educated years ago using the “new math.”
Toutatis
Toutatis
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Here in France, students have to take exams to become teachers in mathematics. One of these exams is an oral one, where the student has to give a lesson, whose subject is chosen at random. The most terrifying one is classical geometry (with triangles and circles) that most of them are unable to treat.
Dr Funkenstein
Dr Funkenstein
1 year ago
Bring back the jobs that were exported overseas so corporate pay could sky rocket. You don’t have a real economy or country if you don’t have a manufacturing base. Why depend on a country like Red China to sell you goods?
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
Well, that is the way capitalism works. As workers become aware of their rights and demand a seat at the table and their fair share of the company’s profits, the capitalist moves to other countries where the workers are not yet organized and can be more easily exploited. That is how you see the transition to China to Vietnam to Bangladesh and on and on.
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
Reply to  whirlaway
I think you mean, when workers demand more than free market wages for a job that does not have to be done locally, businesses either have to move their work to locations where free market costs are lower, or else the business fails due to competition from other companies who are located in lower cost areas.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
It is called competition. A shoe made in the US northeast would cost several times what the same shoe made in China would cost.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
Because they’re mean to Joe Biden, and therefore a fount of truth and goodness like Russia?
YourRobotOverlord
YourRobotOverlord
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
That is strange because I thought U.S. Industrial Production is at all time highs. Do we really want to go back to making plastics toys and TVs? Trying to protect low-value jobs leads to economic failure, just look at Japan. They tried to protect steal making and chip manufacturing, and they still missed out.
xbizo
xbizo
1 year ago
Spot-on Mish. The biggest misunderstanding of college cost is not tuition, but living costs. Only in America would we think that college should be some kind of free ride.
Without $2500 per month for room and board, tuition is $1000 per month at state schools and average private ones. And community college is free. There’s good return on that investment.
If only you could attend college from your parent’s home… Oh wait you can work from home now.
If you could work just 15 hours per week for that $1000 of monthly tuition and leave 30 hours for school. Oh wait, minimum wage is $15…
Guess it can be done without debt if you want to work for it and don’t have champagne taste.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  xbizo
Utter nonsense. Take a look at some of the work-study programs (aka cooperative education).The best of both worlds, and minimal student debt, and skills as well. Students learn in school and while they work in same area as their degree will be in.
Engineering??? Try here: link to ceas.uc.edu
xbizo
xbizo
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
No doubt some degrees are going to be better learned on-campus. While Mom & Dad still need to foot the food bill. Even for these degrees, find a way to get rid of the residency requirement.
Some schools now have 100,000 on line students and 15,000 resident students.
The professor can be disconnected from the location of the students. Example, if learning is better done in a cohort, there is no reason that a U of Cinci course cannot be proctored with a TA in Dayton and Columbus and Cleveland. Teach 120 students with a single professor and four TAs. Students commute from home and the cost per class goes down.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  xbizo
In most universities those TAs will likely be Chinese students, many of whom cheated on the TOEFL. In the first year of a graduate degree, they are seldom competent to teach first-year undergraduates. Good faculty will generally not want them near their classes. Doctoral students are generally doing research assistantships
That said, education at all levels could be greatly improved by having great teachers online, as guests from other universities, plus bring in guests from industry etc.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  xbizo
Not sure what state you live in, but tuition is a lot more than $1000/month at state schools.
xbizo
xbizo
1 year ago
Reply to  KidHorn
It ranges from $9,000 to $19,000 in surveys I have seen. I am paying $14,000 for my son at Liberty U. Should add $2500 in books and fees and say $1500 per month.
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
College has to be funded by the government since it is an investment in the future of our society and country. However, the barrier for admission has to be kept very high so only those with the right aptitude (and the right attitude) can get in.
The rest can go into trade schools where they can learn skills that are going to be useful to their fellow-citizens. After all, a plumber is far, far, far more essential to our lives than a hedge-fund manager is (in fact, we can really question if we need these critters at all in the first place).
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  whirlaway

The majority of people couldn’t get their precious crotch fruits into college, and would vote to remedy the unfairness.

Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  whirlaway
An excellent plan to keep the progeny of the elite managing the important stuff.
Their parents can afford the “proper” upbringing and preparatory schools to overcome “barriers.”
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
As if the present day is any different! The progeny of the elite manage the important stuff even now. The only difference is that the progeny of the non-elite are saddled with tons of debt!
Bigal
Bigal
1 year ago
Supply and Demand are out of wack in many aspects of academia and parents/potential students don’t understand what that means and the universities make more income because of it. Many parents/students are getting scammed because of it. Academia could fix but it is not in their best interest. Student loans are a scam reinforcing the problem ,when was the last time a loan officer approved a business loan knowing the probability of default is substantial? Why approve so many student loans? Because the banks still make money!! Follow the money to see why so many other parties keep the current college scams going.
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
1 year ago
I just had to look up equine studies.
“A nationally recognized program, the Equine Studies degree has four specializations: Equitation, Dressage, Show Hunters, and Combined Training. The curriculum expands to schooling, teaching, judging, horse show management, anatomy, first aid, and equine nutrition.”
No mention if it teaches you how to harness a team to the wagon, coach, or plow which might actually be useful if the Fed blows up the economy. 😉
Avery
Avery
1 year ago
Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if high school guidance counselors were on the take, especially from ‘The State Flagship’ universities.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Saturday Night Live – SNL
@nbcsnl
Happy Easter from former President Trump
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Graphic hoot of the day: US average test scores grades 3-8
Draw your own conclusions.
bennyhill
bennyhill
1 year ago
The cost of higher education skyrocketed when the feds took over in granting loans and they drastically raised the amounts you could finance. The collages soon raised the cost to attend. Professors began getting paid 100’s of thousands to teach!
Over the last two decades I have given lectures to thousands of kids in school. The basic topic I talk about is how to run a business and how to make millions.
Funny thing is I have no degree. I just worked hard and invested hard. I sometime think if I had gotten a degree I might have just settled in to some md paying middle management job.
When a young person asks me now what they should do I tell them to learn a trade and start their own business. Auto repair, Plumbing, HVAC, Electrician, or another high margin trade.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  bennyhill
Computer software is a good trade and doesn’t get your hands as dirty.
Plus you can often work from home and save on transportation costs.
Tools are cheaper too, but they don’t last as long.
Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
If you do it right, if you are in the trades (car mechanic, software coder, etc), to be really successful you are only on the tools for a few years.
Motivation is key.
The key is to start your own gig.
If someone is motivated and somewhat smart, they should do well, regardless of schooling.
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
Reply to  bennyhill
The cost of college increased dramatically when they changed the bankruptcy code to make it that you couldn’t eliminate college loan debt if you declared bankruptcy. Until that change, college loans were much, much smaller.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Too many easily obtained college degrees (at whatever cost) cheapens the economic value of degrees already earned. It was better when high school grades weren’t falsely elevated. These days, it seems that everyone has a 4.0 GPA.
I recently read an article about California UC admissions where our lawmakers are upset because UC is taking too many non-CA residents (they pay more) compared to state residents. A parent was complaining that their precious didn’t get into the school they wanted despite having a “4.0+” GPA. What exactly is a 4.0+ GPA anyway?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
FYI, 98.46% of schools have an average GPA below a 4.0 So, no, not everyone has a 4.0 GPA
As for the 4.0+ GPA, some schools grade with A+ at the top. An A+ is theoretically worth 4.3 points…
bobcalderone
bobcalderone
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Many high schools give students an extra grade point (A=5, B=4, etc.) for Advanced Placement courses, which are college-level work.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
I agree with Mish. Student loans should be subject to bankruptcy. Every person and company can go through bankruptcy and have their debt reduced or eliminated except for student debt. That in itself is not normal. Without being able to go through bankruptcy students end up being true debt slaves for the rest of their lives.
Another problem that has to be addressed is with Ph.D students where, because of the changes in the universities who have to spend more and more on administration and less on productive endeavors, the have to spend 10-15 years working for peanuts hoping to get a place as a professor one day. Most students of modest means can’t take that and drop out. Consequently those who can keep going making almost nothing are not the most gifted but are those who have wealthy families that subvention them enough to live a middle class existence while getting their diploma. It’s no longer the most intelligent who move into the faculty. It’s the ones with deep pockets.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
FYI Average time to doctoral degree can be seen here.
Typically, a PhD holder can command a much higher salary outside the university. I suspect many stay on because they relish the freedom of academia, get grants to buy out their teaching loads, and consult on the side.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
There are some things you can only do in academia such as basic research. You can often do both in some cases and of course not everyone is motivated by money; something we forget in a blog dedicated to making money.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
You need to inform the IBM Fellows that they can’t do basic research any longer.
There are plenty of companies that do basic research in-house.
True, I don’t know of any companies doing high-energy physics in-house.
The facilities are expensive, but then they’re Government facilities, not university. .
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
AI WILL take away many jobs moving forward (both white & blue collar) . For the white-collars, few of those displaced will find equivalent employment. Student loan bankruptcy will have to be put on the table.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
No need to worry. AI will create jobs for all. Just ask ChatGPT
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Or ask all the people trying to rationalize accelerate development of automation/robots and AI technology. Almost everyone says some unknown kind of more and better jobs will be created. Don’t be afraid!
But everything I read points in the opposite direction.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Don’t be a killjoy.
prumbly
prumbly
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
The only problem with allowing students to go bankrupt is that man (most?) of them probably would do exactly that immediately after they finish studying. It would be a great way to clear their loans just before they start earning. Start work with a clean slate.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
If students can go bankrupt then those giving the loans will insist on the parents co-signing the loans. This definably make the parents look carefully on how and on what the student is spending their money on.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
Bankruptcy stays on your credit reports for I think 7 years. And you don’t just “declare” bankruptcy. You have to prove that you don’t have the assets to meet your obligation and are not likely to have them in the future. Your new college degree says that you DO have the potential to pay back your loans, so sorry, no bankruptcy for you.
Christoball
Christoball
1 year ago
Lets face it. Many parents, especially well heeled parents like to send their kids away to Universities to get them out of their hair. It is almost like kicking them out of the house but in a way they can feel good about. For the kids, “What goes on at Uni-Nursery stays at Uni-Nursery.
hmk
hmk
1 year ago
I know in Germany where college is free if you qualify ˇthey put students at the junior high level in either a skilled trades or college bound curriculum. I believe they have a data base on which skilled trades are needed and try to triage the students appropriately. Makes sense to me. Don’t understand why we don’t emulate that except for the free college part. My understanding is you can still attend a university if you don’t qualify for free tuition, but the paid tuition is also very reasonable.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
Sounds nice but basically your career is decided about when you are 16. Getting out of that predetermined path is very hard and if put into the trade path going to college is not going to happen. The colleges are free but they get their money from the state so they are very picky and won’t take a chance on a late bloomer.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Kids change a LOT during those years.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Very true.
It is hard to get out of the university path once you are on it, as trying to change to a trade path is very difficult.
At 18 or 19 you are already lacking 2-3 years of apprentice experience and not really competitive.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
Free education fosters the type of forever student, the kind that never want to leave the protective confines of university.
At their worst, they become activists fighting for issues nobody else can comprehend but them.
Then they move on to a Soros university, and future life in politics.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
Nowadays, Americans don’t want to acknowledge the factors of success since it would mean they are not born ‘equal.’ It is far easier to point at family wealth… Typically the important factors are evident well before 16, in terms of motivation, interests, and intellectual capacity, none of which are appealing to today’s woke ‘educators’.
Naphtali
Naphtali
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
Many years ago here in the USA we had a similar system in some states. I remember before the SAT we had the Regents. All questions were answered in longhand including mathematical derivations. Qualifying students would earn a seat at University. Most students in those days went to learn a trade. The percentage of seniors that went on to higher learning was very much smaller than today.
hmk
hmk
1 year ago
Well one lesson I learned the hard way, what other way is there, is that putting your children in a community college for 2 years will save a ton of money. Basically it is damn near free. I sent my daughter to our state university here in MI and after 2 years of f-ing around going from a double major to changing her mind to something else, I then sent her to a local commuter university and at least on saved room and board. She has a decent job now but never needed her degree for it. WTF. My son who had not decided on a career in hs was sent to community college per the recommendation of his his counselor. Up until then I had not even considered it. I must give him credit as he researched his choices for a major and wound up with a math degree from University of Michigan. Has a good paying job at an investment bank now. If you would have told me that while he was in hs I would have laughed at you. What I find odd though is when I tell other parents about going to community college first they tell me their children don’t want to. I would love to tell them to grow a pair. That is whats wrong with most kids today they are overindulged by parents.
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
One of the few things Washington State has done right is the Running Start program. The last two years of college are done at the Community College, you graduate with the HS diploma and the AA too.
It also lets the students evade No Child Gets Ahead.
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
1 year ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
Was that a typo: “last two years of college“? college -> high school“.
And WA also was relatively friendly to home schooling in the 90’s. Probably still are.
Too, Running Start’s low age limit was relaxed for at least one pushy mother’s kid at the time. Probably set a precedent they may have hidden to the extent they could.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
Amen. It was easy to convince my son to go to CC to get an AA degree before getting a BS. My daughters on the other hand, would be too embarrassed to go to CC. Their dumb a$$ friends would make fun of them. When I talk to their dumb a$$ friends parents, they wish their kids went to CC instead of throwing away tens of thousands on rent and food.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  KidHorn
Plus you can’t get away with drinking anywhere near as much alcohol attending the CC from home.
jivefive98
jivefive98
1 year ago
I think y’all dont quite understand what college is really for. It isnt about learning at all. Most people, like me, dont work in the area of our degrees. Instead, college degrees are job certificates. They state clearly that, for four-whatever long years, you were reliably willing to do what you DIDNT want to do. In the 80s, I studied for tests, wrote papers and did lab writeups, when I really wanted to watch NBC Must See TV. Managers and business owners dont care what area you got your degree in, because everyone learns on the job anyway (even doctors and lawyers). A degree says you are more likely to be a better employee cause you have this cert saying you will do work you dont want to do — the very definition of work. Whether a degree is free or a jillion dollars doesnt matter. Higher education just saw an opportunity to rob a younger generation and took it (see Social security and Medicare). You’d do the same thing.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
Look at some of the work-study (cooperative education) programs and you will see a very different type of education. By merging theory and practice, these programs have a very high success rate with starting salaries reflecting 2-3 years of experience.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
My professor told me the purpose of college was to teach you how to teach yourself. I took it to heart and have found it invaluable in furthering my education.
jivefive98
jivefive98
1 year ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
Certain people knew how to teach themselves long before they got to college. Theres no time in college to teach yourself how to learn. I think you have to know it before you arrive.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
I learned how to do research, how to spot trends, how to prevent that knowledge, etc. Just doing the assignments taught me much. It’s true I already knew how to learn, but graduate school took it to a whole new level.
You did hit on a pet peeve of mine; time. No time to ponder what you’re studying. An important element that I use to this day.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
Same is true in the corporate world. There is no time to kick back and just think. One must always look like they are physically doing SOMETHING.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
It comes down to a choice between Facebook or Wikipedia (Frats/sororities or the library).
Generally, high schools do an awful job at preparing students for the real world.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
The purpose of high school is to teach you to teach yourself.
If you haven’t learned that before college there’s no point in attending college.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
This was absolutely true at one time. Until the Rockefellors, and their kind, began their philanthropic educational ventures. My grandfather, who only went through 8 years of school as that was all there was, actually became an electrical engineer for the company that brought us the C130. He designed the original instrument panel. And became a multi-millionaire selling pianos that he couldn’t play. A terrible grandfather, but still pretty impressive. He passed the tests after all the other engineers convinced their superiors he was up to par. Now, we have people who get confused by complex tasks like flipping a hamburger. I don’t blame the state though, they could have picked up a book. That’s what I did. However, my ability to learn was really enhanced by college. I was driven though. Had just got out of the army and obsessive behavior was part of my way of coping. Didn’t work well, but I did learn a lot of book smarts.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
I didn’t mean to intimate that college wasn’t extremely valuable, often mandatory.
It very difficult to do human anatomy dissection on your own.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
1 year ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
From the looks of it, all of our glorious leaders have learned how to give themselves lobotomies. 😰
xbizo
xbizo
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
This started in the 1950s or so when companies started screening based on having a college degree. If companies change this up to skill-based, and there is a movement afoot, it could revolutionize demand for a degree.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
I’ve had to hire and work with software developers for 35 years now. Have hired and trained hundreds. Computer Science graduates are the worst programmers out of all the technical fields we looked for. I would say math majors were the best.
CS majors need to be hand fed perfect requirements and then they write syntactically correct code. In the real world, you rarely get perfect requirements and you have to write code that others can look at and understand. A good programmer takes something complex and breaks it down into simple parts. A bad programmer creates unnecessarily complex code. CS graduates tend to way overcomplicate things.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  KidHorn
There is a different logic/mindset for mathematicians and programmers. Not many CS graduates could understand the intricacies of high-level finance, for example. On the other hand, the mathematician is likely to use a modern Fortran, with little/no interest in the user interface
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I used to run a group that wrote insurance software. Annuities mostly. You had to understand the math. The math wasn’t advanced, but you had to have a feel for it. There was UI coding involved also. Like creating forms and producing charts and tables. It was really hard to find people who understood the math and could code.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  KidHorn
That’s why they pay actuaries as much as they do.
Nonplused
Nonplused
1 year ago
Like most investments, the rate of return of college is highly dependent on what you pay for it. Next up would be the expected cashflows, discounted. Of course the terminal value is zero, so you don’t have to worry about that. But of course you have to go to college and take the right courses before you ever learn to do an NPV calculation. They don’t teach any of that in high school. They can teach high school kids introductory calculus, but not basic economics. Heck I don’t think they even go over basic debt financing in high school. You come out of high school able to calculate the trajectory of a ballistic projectile or solve a quadratic equation but not able to understand a basic interest table. Does the banking industry have anything to do with that glaring shortcoming? You bet they do.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Nonplused
And the Government and the Federal Reserve have no interest in high school graduates understanding finance or economics.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
1 year ago
I graduated with an MLA in History back in 97. Just as college was being overrun with feminazis and political correctness. I got my money’s worth, but most didn’t take their education. They acted as if just showing up made it all happen. Of course, college can’t be fixed without fixing the first 12 years. They have to work with what they get, and grades 1-12 are a joke. Not to mention you’re sticking people together who have mostly been under their parents thumb until college while their hormones are going crazy. I would have flunked out had I been 18.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
You fix the problem by holding k-12 schools accountable for what they do. Universities need to set, and stick with higher admission standards, not offer remedial courses to fix what should not be inferior education coming out of high school.
Some things that would make a big difference:
State-based education vouchers provided to each child regardless of income, for the average cost to educate said child in that state.
Merit scholarships
High-achiever schools
Tech scholarships for tech-based high schools and 2-year colleges
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Yup, the universities need to turn down the money.
My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
“…Making college free will not fix the problem. It would make it worse.
Student debt cancellation would make the problem worse as well….”
However, the same is true for making student debt ‘cancelable in bankruptcy.’
Admittedly, it would put a dent in lenders’ pockets, and they would be more cautious in lending, particularly to low-income students.
What does work?
Making universities and 2-year colleges guarantors for the student loans they receive. The analogy–products come with warranties of fitness for purpose etc. Similarly, in the service sector… Only education escapes responsibility. It begins with requiring institutions receiving Federal loan dollars to repay loans when students cannot.
The impact…
Crap colleges like U of Phoenix vanish overnight.
Universities will focus on recruiting quality students, providing quality education with emphasis on workplace skills, hiring quality faculty…
Degrees like ‘equine studies’ are reduced in size, become focused on the job market etc.
If a university wants to maintain ‘money loser degrees’, it must do so by self-funding them, making them more efficient, etc
,
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
The problem is the government can only cancel student debt that the government loaned. There is a HUGE amount of private loans out there. Imagine what those with private loans would feel like if those with public loans got theirs cancelled.
Also there is no way colleges and universities can guarantee the debt. Remember, many colleges and universities are public institutions (anything with the name State after it for example) and that means it’s the state tax payer on the hook, not the college / university. So you don’t really solve the problem by having them guarantee the debt because it’s just back on the tax payers again.
Finally, a HUGE amount of the loans taken out are for living expenses, not college expenses. So why would colleges / universities be on the hook for that.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I realize there are other sources of student loans, but private lenders could write the same conditions into their loans–making the universities responsible for what they receive.
Why should a state taxpayer be on the hook for a university offering a degree in equine studies, to thousands of students with little interest and limited intelligence, taught by people who have never worked in the equine industry, and no opportunities for employment?
Right now, universities are motivated NOT to reduce their costs. Making them responsible for living costs might increase the use of online learning, work-study programs, etc, shorter time to degree, more efficient use of time while in college…
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
People who choose a degree in equine studies made the choice themselves. Now they need to pay the cost of that choice. Welcome to adulthood.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
State taxpayers are on the hook for state schools because they are owned by the state. The same way state tax payers are on the hook for police brutality lawsuits (the cops don’t pay out, the tax payer does) and so on.
And just how could private lenders force schools to backstop their loans? Lenders don’t control schools in any way legally.
A jubilee would simply be the end of loans because no one would ever make one again.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Here is an example of why universities need to be held financially responsible…
Marine biology is a highly competitive field in which the supply of
marine scientists far exceeds the demand
. Federal and state governmental
agencies, the U.S. Navy, and the U.S. Coast Guard are important
employers, but the number of positions is limited. Local governments,
aquariums, zoological parks, universities, environmental advocacy and
conservation groups and publications; and private research laboratories
or consulting firms also employ these professionals. To get a critical
edge in the job market, marine biologists should complement their
knowledge of aquatic organisms and fishery science with a background in
wildlife management, mathematics, and computer skills.”
The chances of a student graduating and getting a job in the field are slim. The average base salary for a marina biologist in the USA is $47K, and most will need a PhD. Figure the cost of tuition and the student loan. “The average tuition & fees of the Marine Biology and Biological Oceanography program at those schools are $10,664 for state residents and $31,237 for out-of-state students,”
What are the chances of the loan being repaid?
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
With ChatGPT and upcoming future versions, the value of computer science degrees and software coding knowledge may plummet.
Many years back, in the 1980’s/90-‘s, I recall that IBM was known for hiring non-computer science graduates, including people holding degrees in non-technical areas like history, philosophy, teaching, etc. and training them for the openings they had, especially on sales and sales support. They felt these people were more rounded culturally wise, which at that time, they thought was better for the corporation.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Having a degree may or may not be relevant. The biggest problem is academia largely turns its back on future employers. It doesn’t matter what the field is. Faculty, who seldom have a real-world job, teach students what they know, which is more of the same that made them go into academia.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
“..the value of computer science degrees and software coding knowledge may plummet.”
Hogwash!
Computer Science degrees are fairly specialised; but if you can’t write software, you literally can not begin to aspire to possess even the the most basic functionality, in a world were data sets available/required for decision making are as large as they are today. You are left, no exaggeration at all, flat out illiterate. It’s as idiotic as that other feelgood fantasy of the Fed era: That you can be a functional general business manager/executive, without first being a very, very astute accountant. In both cases, you are flying completely blind. Completely clueless about the world around you and how to navigate it. Just cluelessly stumbling around misinterpreting random happenstance as cause-effect.
Back when America still were led/fronted by occasionally intelligent people; IBM, then later even Microsoft, focused enormous resources, and serious brainpower, on programming tools specifically designed to be maximally approachable by “business people”/accountants/actuaries etc. Based on the (now hopelessly romantic…..) notion that executives, managers and decision makers could, and did, think. Hence would want, even need, the tools required to accurately and completely extract the information needed to feed actual thought processes. The generation or two of decision makers which has since lived on welfare from The Fed rather than off of any form of meaningful work, did put a brake on that project. But that’s just a temporary anomaly.
At least unless living on welfare is specifically the goal, people making decisions need to be able to obtain accurate and complete’ish information about the world they operate in. As well as be able to formulate and test hypothesis based on that information. And comprehend, and formulate, models of processes, whether technical/industrial or “business” ones, etc. All of which requires the ability to formulate themselves clearly, completely and non-ambiguously. Which is just another way of saying: The need to know how to program.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
ChatGPT like web search before, helps if you don’t want to remember boilerplate coding features.
Writing complex business logic which means efficient database procedures is a challenge for many would-be developers, and by extension AI.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
Or they need to play poker very very well.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Complete nonsense. Even if AI somehow managed to work. It never has in the past. Who do you think is going to integrate it into business practices?
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  KidHorn
It presently will still need integrators but that is a short-term problem. Another year or two and integration will be figured out by AI’s.
Meanwhile, raw programmers are going to be going the way of the Model T.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Chat gpt is like having a junior dev that doesn’t get its feelings hurt when you ask it to rewrite. It’s going to get really difficult to get hired as a junior or associate dev.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
If you think finding a job as a marine biologist is difficult try finding a job as a pure astronomer.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
It would be a lot simpler if universities let students put in on a college credit card sort of thing that they would then pay off over time. Not any different than paying with a bank credit card, except the interest rate would be a lot more reasonable.

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