GDP is -0.9 Percent, Second Straight Decline, But a Recession Did Not Start in Q1

GDP Data from the BLS, chart by Mish

Technical Recession?

There will be plenty of talk today about a “technical recession” or simply a “recession” starting in the first quarter based on two consecutive quarters of GDP. 

But that is not the definition, nor is it a good definition, nor did the White House change the definition change as scores of people on Twitter stated yesterday.

Real Final Sales 

GDP declined for two quarters but Real Final Sales (RFS) did not. RFS is the true bottom line estimate for the economy. The baseline number includes inventory adjustments that net to zero over time. 

Unless the BEA revises RFS into negative territory, don’t expect a Q1 recession declaration. 

The National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), is the official arbiter of recessions. It is highly unlikely to declare a recession starting in the first quarter with RFS at +1.1 percent.

GDP Numbers 

GDP Data from the BLS, chart by Mish

In billions of dollars, we see the same thing: Two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP but not RFS. 

There’s no Q1 recession in my book and I highly doubt the NBER will declare one either. 

Curiously, I believe a recession started in May. I will go over why shortly. First, let’s dive into the Advance GDP Report for Q2

The GDP Items and Key points that follow are courtesy of Rick Davis at the Consumer Metrics Institute. Thanks Rick!

GDP Items 

  • Consumer spending for goods was reported to be contracting at a -1.08% rate, down 1.01 percentage points (pp) from the prior quarter. 
  • The headline contribution for commercial/private fixed investments was reported to be -0.72%, down a material 2.00 pp from the prior quarter. 
  • Inventories subtracted -2.01 pp from the headline number, down 1.66 pp from the prior quarter. It is important to remember that the BEA’s inventory numbers are exceptionally noisy (and susceptible to significant distortions/anomalies caused by commodity pricing or currency swings) while ultimately representing a zero reverting (and long term essentially zero sum) series. 
  • The contribution to the headline from governmental spending was reported to be -0.33%, up 0.18 pp from the prior quarter.
  • Imports subtracted -0.49% annualized ‘growth’ from the headline number, up 2.20 pp from the prior quarter. 
  • Foreign trade contributed a net 1.43 pp to the headline number. 
  • Real per-capita annualized disposable income was reported to have decreased by $79 quarter to quarter. 
  • The annualized household savings rate was 5.2% (down 0.4pp from the prior quarter). In the 56 quarters since 2Q-2008 the cumulative annualized growth rate for real per-capita disposable income has been 1.15%. 

Key Points 

  • For this estimate the BEA assumed an effective annualized deflator of 8.86%. During the same quarter the inflation recorded by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) in their CPI-U index was higher at 11.02%. Under estimating inflation results in optimistic growth rates, and if the BEA’s nominal data was deflated using CPI-U inflation the headline growth number would have been -3.18%. 
  • Consumer spending on goods moved deeper into contraction, with the growth rate for all consumer spending declining by about a half percent. 
  • Commercial spending on fixed investment also began to contract, primary due to weakening residential construction. 
  • Real household income and savings rates continued to shrink. The consumer is in no position to quickly reverse the course of the headline number. 

Changing Definition?

Sorry guys, there was no definition change. Countless people on Twitter made the same baseless claim. 

NBER on Recession

Please consider the NBER’s Business Cycle Dating Procedure: Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What indicators does the committee use to determine peak and trough dates?

A: The determination of the months of peaks and troughs is based on a range of monthly measures of aggregate real economic activity published by the federal statistical agencies. These include real personal income less transfers (PILT), nonfarm payroll employment, real personal consumption expenditures, wholesale-retail sales adjusted for price changes, employment as measured by the household survey, and industrial production. There is no fixed rule about what measures contribute information to the process or how they are weighted in our decisions.

Q: Where does the committee obtain the data for the indicators that it generally consults in determining the dates of its monthly and quarterly chronologies?

A: Data for all indicators can be found and downloaded from “FRED”, the data website maintained by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. These are the search terms that will bring up each monthly series listed in the earlier FAQ:

  • FRED real personal income less transfers
  • FRED nonfarm payrolls
  • FRED real personal consumption expenditures
  • FRED real manufacturing and trade sales
  • FRED household employment
  • FRED index of industrial production

Q: The financial press often states the definition of a recession as two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP. How does that relate to the NBER’s recession dates?

A: Most of the recessions identified by our procedures do consist of two or more consecutive quarters of declining real GDP, but not all of them. In 2001, for example, the recession did not include two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP. In the recession from the peak in December 2007 to the trough in June 2009, real GDP declined in the first, third, and fourth quarters of 2008 and in the first and second quarters of 2009. Real GDI declined for the final three quarters of 2001 and for five of the six quarters in the 2007–2009 recession.

Q: Why doesn’t the committee accept the two-quarter definition?

A: There are several reasons. First, we do not identify economic activity solely with real GDP, but consider a range of indicators. Second, we consider the depth of the decline in economic activity. The NBER definition includes the phrase, “a significant decline in economic activity.” Thus real GDP could decline by relatively small amounts in two consecutive quarters without warranting the determination that a peak had occurred. Third, our main focus is on the monthly chronology, which requires consideration of monthly indicators. Fourth, in examining the behavior of production on a quarterly basis, where real GDP data are available, we give equal weight to real GDI. The difference between GDP and GDI—called the “statistical discrepancy”—was particularly important in the recessions of 2001 and 2007–2009.

Real Final vs Baseline GDP 

With the bottom line estimate of RFS at 1.1 percent, the BEA is not going to time the recession starting in Q1, nor should it, barring huge negative revisions by the BEA.

Kudos to GDPNow 

Data from GDPNow Forecast, chart by Mish

Recession Started in May

Yesterday, and for most of the past few months I stuck my neck out a bit on a recession call starting in May. 

My opinion was based on the likelihood of positive RFS for Q2. 

For  discussion, please see Based on Analysis of the Final Q2 GDPNow, a Recession Started in May

Real Final Sales

Most eyes are on the headline number, but that’s not what one should be watching. The important number is Real Final Sales (RFS). It’s the true bottom line number for the economy.

The GDPNow RFS estimate is 1.1 percent.

If accurate, that would rule out a recession starting in the first quarter. But it does not rule out a recession starting in May, my preferred starting month. 

Starting in May, retail sales floundered and housing fell though the floor. The RFS component of GDP fell from 3.7 percent to 1.1 percent.

That means -2.6 percent on RFS in May and June. That’s a pretty steep contraction. Strength in April negates a recession starting in the first quarter regardless of two quarters of negative GDP.

Looking Ahead

My May recession date depends on a couple of things: A GDP report from the BEA tomorrow that confirms GDPNow, and continued housing and retail sales weakness that I expect. 

How to Think About Recessions

Two consecutive Qs of declining GDP is a bad definition. Was there no Covid recession?

I look at it this way

  • 2 Qs of declining baseline GDP is insufficient.
  • 2 Qs of declining RFS is a sufficient but not necessary condition.

This allows for Covid as well as consecutive Big Down, Small Up, Big Down quarters.

The NBER could be far more timely, but their thought process is at least defendable. 

Looking Ahead Stage Two 

The BEA confirmed the GDPNow final expectation. Once again, kudos to Pat Higgins at the Atlanta Fed for an very accurate final call. 

If we get the continued weakness I expect, led by housing, look for the NBER to eventually time the 2022 recession as starting in May.

From a jobs standpoint, I expect a Long But Shallow Recession With Minimal Job Losses.

From a stock market perspective, I expect things will be brutal.

For discussion, please see Artificial Wealth vs GDP: Why Earnings and the Stock Market Will Get Crushed

For now, the market is cheering the likely end of aggressive hikes. However, a recession is baked in the cake along with declining corporate profits. 

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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59 Comments
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Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
Look at the chart carefully. GDP declined in Q4 2019 and then Q1 of 2020.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Changing Definition?”
I read last night that Wikipedia changed their definition of recession and locked it out from editing.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Remember all these same sources “GOV’T” tied groups claimed Russia has collapsed, when even latest report from IMF admitted Russia is faring better than they had predicted!!! Even admitted the “WEST” is getting the worse of the sanctions!!!
So when they are talking about the US economy with numbers take it with a grain of salt!!!
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
I’m betting they are under immense pressure politically by the White House and establishment to spin a positive number for as long as possible..
Back in the day it was 3 Q in negative we were in a recession and one way they put it off Politically was have a positive Q in the second Q even if it was just .01% and the establishment would say we “Are not in a recession”!!!
prumbly
prumbly
3 years ago
Why is everyone so concerned about whether someone declares a recession or not? It makes zero difference to the economy.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Real GDI was up 1.8% in Q1. Waiting on Q2 GDI.
I agree with Mish that a recession will be shallow. Energy use will continue to increase. Oil and gas stocks are still cheap.
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
3 years ago
The quality of the thinking and discussion in this area is certainly clear. Arguing over a label. Lucky thing everyone isn’t doing that, ’cause we’d run short on food PDQ.
Q: What indicators does the committee use to determine peak and trough dates?
A: … There is no fixed rule about what measures contribute information to the process or how they are weighted in our decisions.
Well, that about sums it up.
Here’s a thought: Consider your house’s heater. The temperature goes below X and the heat turns on. Does the heat turn off when the temperature goes above X? No. Of course not. Otherwise your poor heater would burn itself out turning off and on a million times a second. Or whatever. So it turns off when the temperature goes above Y, which is higher than X.
Now, what are the X and Y of, say, GDP/RFS/whatever when we want to assign a “recession” label (AKA, turn the heater off or on) to the measurement? I don’t care.
The recession label is especially useless for predictive purposes. Too, it’s startling to me how often people use historically updated economic measurements to justify using the measure to predict things.
/Rant
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
I think the next six months will matter much more than the last six.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
And then what matters in 6 – 12 months from now is: Does rent & mortgage relief return? Do amplified unemployment checks return? How quickly does the Fed do QE again and pivots on rates? Is the Fed forced to stop running off bonds or can they run then off simultaneously as they fund soon to return profuse spending from Congress? My great concern is the Fed & certainly 95% of Congress have moved to a Modern Monetary Theory-based approach to managing the economy. I honestly believe this is the last downturn before the next one turns ugly, like depression ugly.
effendi
effendi
3 years ago
It doesn’t matter if the definition of a recession is what the NBER defines, nor the standard definition used in economic textbooks written by Nobel Laureates (2 quarters), nor your reasonable call of May.
What matters is that the US is in recession and the White House is lying about it and is doing everything they can to make it long and painful with the help of congresscritters from both colours of the swamp.
And by long and hard I mean it may never end until the US is dismembered as a broke carcass and then maybe reformed as a chastened nation or nations.
Ziggy
Ziggy
3 years ago
  • “For this estimate the BEA assumed an effective annualized deflator of 8.86%. During the same quarter the inflation recorded by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) in their CPI-U index was higher at 11.02%. Under estimating inflation results in optimistic growth rates, and if the BEA’s nominal data was deflated using CPI-U inflation the headline growth number would have been -3.18%.”
Lets take this a step further closer to reality. If the CPI-U understates inflation that consumers realize in their daily living by that same 2.16% (11.02-8.86) difference between the deflator and the CPI-U then the headline number would have been -5.34%. Is this premise way outside the realm of possibility?
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Ziggy
What really matters is comparability. The deflator has a long history. I didn’t recognize it at first because I’ve been away from federal stats for quite a while, but then looked it up and remembered. For purposes of calculating real GDP, you should not use a fixed basket, nor should you include import prices.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Actually, you should not include anything that would result in a difference from your projection.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Reply to  Ziggy
I believe “Real Inflation” is around 15-20%!!
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Those of us who are old enough to remember (along with Pepperidge Farm) will recall when Volcker raised rates in 1979. The economy faltered and started to go into reverse. The Carter administration tried to soft-pedal it, and wound up being the butt of jokes for not wanting to speak “the R word.”

Live long enough, kids, and you’ll eventually realize that the same old bullsh*t winds up in different sammiches. LOL

Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
United State Debt Report Card (DebtClock)
07/28/2008:
$50.5 Trillion Total Debt
$14 Trillion GDP (75% Public Debt to GDP)
$10.4 Trillion Federal Public Debt ($900 Billion FED Balance Sheet)
$14.6 Trillion Mortgage Debt
$950 Billion Credit Card Debt
07/28/2022:
$91.6 Trillion Total Debt (Conservative by any measure)
$23.5 Trillion GDP (144% Public Debt to GDP)
$30.6 Trillion Federal Public Debt ($8.9 Trillion FED Balance Sheet) –> ~$40 Trillion Federal Public Debt! How did that happen?
$14.4 Trillion Mortgage Debt
$1.2 Trillion Credit Card Debt
Seems like the building we are falling off of in 2022, is like 80 stories tall compared to the 50 story tall building in 2008.
Karlmarx
Karlmarx
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
Like i said earlier, once you take out government debt GDP has been flat since 2008
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Karlmarx
Debt is just a financing mechanism. Has its pluses and minuses. If a company produces X, the X is X regardless of the company’s capital structure. Trust me, there are reasons to prefer equity, but not always. As for government, I’m no fan of what’s happened to the federal debt level, but it does not affect the government component of GDP.
shamrock
shamrock
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
30.6 Trillion Federal Public Debt ($8.9 Trillion FED Balance Sheet)
–> ~$40 Trillion Federal Public Debt! How did that happen?”
No, the fed balance sheet is money owed to the FED, not government or federal reserve debt. $5.6T are treasuries most of the rest is mortgage backed securities. The $5.6T is part of the $30T in government debt, not an addition to it. There is NOT $40t federal public debt.
Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
Reply to  shamrock
Let’s call it a second set of books then. US treasury owes the FED. Payable apparently never. I don’t see the FED balance sheet ever going down by any meaningful value. Every ’emergency’ (so called) will be met with a quick increase in the FED balance sheet.
shamrock
shamrock
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
Well,yes. But it will be paid by borrowing more. How long that is sustainable is the question. I think at least 1 more generation.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
As they say in paratrooper school, after 100 feet it doesn’t matter much if it’s 100, 500 or 5000.
Only a question of the clean-up.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Today’s number nothing more than a work in progress.
Setting aside the 2020 recession (not typical) lets go back to 2008. It was Q3 before “generally” recognized as a recession (NBER did not make it official till December 2008). So, reaction to Q3 GDP advance estimate (-0.3%) released on October 30th, 2008?

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Stocks rallied Thursday, as investors cheered news of easier credit and a report showing the economy shrank at a slower pace than expected in the third quarter.

The Dow Jones Industrial average (INDU) gained 190 points, or 2.1%. The Standard & Poor’s 500 (SPX) index rose 2.6% and the Nasdaq composite (COMP) gained 2.5%.

Stocks seem to be in the process of putting a bottom in place, said Gary Hager, founder and chief executive of Integrated Wealth Management, citing the recent bear market lows hit on Oct. 10.

Looking forward, he said “We’re still going to see significant swings, but the volatility should start to decrease once we get past the election and get through the end of the year.”

GDP: Gross domestic product, the broadest measure of the nation’s economy, fell at an annual rate of 0.3% in the third quarter after growing at a 2.8% rate in the second quarter.

The drop was not as bad as expected, with analysts having forecast that GDP would slump 0.5%. However, the decline was still the worst performance for the economy since the last recession 7 years ago.

Anywhere near end of recession?
Anywhere near market lows?
Oh, and about that initial print of -0.3%. Here are the revisions to Q3:
November 25th, 2008 … -0.5%
December 23rd, 2008 … -0.5%
February 27th, 2009 … -0.5%
July 31st, 2009 … -2.7%
July 30th, 2010 … -4.0%
July 29th, 2011 … -3.7%
July 31st, 2013 … -2.0%
July 30th, 2014 … -1.9%
July 27th, 2018 …-2.1%
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
2008 recession is a bad comparison. That one was due to years of loose credit policy by the entire banking system. I think today is more like the year 2000 when the economy was overheating due to Y2K policies by Greenspan and years of overinvestment in tech. I think we will settle back to 1-2% growth faster than people think — all things being equal. 2000/2001 recession culminated in 9/11 which caused a deflationary collapse in the whole economy.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
“2008 recession is a bad comparison.”
Opinions vary.
In 2008 country only had to deal with a housing bubble. In 2022 an EVERYTHING bubble.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
LMAO. ”I think…’ based on what, exactly? ‘A loose credit policy’? Oh, that it was so simple.
2022 has 12 years of fiscal insanity, resulting in the greatest dislocation of risk and return in financial history (2008 was a winner in the irrationality race.)
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
I don’t think you can really call this a normal recession. It is more reminiscent of overcapitalization similar to the year 2000. There was a recession due to this but it was due Greenspan cutting rates going into Y2K and too much capital being made available by the Fed because of it. This time around it is because of Covid-related policies by both the Fed and federal government. Covid was more like a 9/11 type event but then there was so much reflationary activity from it, that there was an overshoot on economic growth. Going down YoY doesn’t mean much in light of that.
FWIW, I think unemployment would have to rise appreciably for this to be considered a recession. That happen in 2000 and 2001. So far it hasn’t happen yet and doesn’t appear that it will unless the companies driving productivity growth see reason to stop hiring AND start layoffs. This is why I stated yesterday that my definition of a recession is now based on unemployment and related numbers like mass layoffs and state numbers that are reported via the WARN act.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Agreed, this will NOT be a normal recession. What will make it different is twelve years built on faux debt with real interest rates close to zero, or negative. Example: irrational assets like Bitcoin would likely not exist with rational/intelligent investors with an understanding of risk and return tradeoffs. It is easy to make money in a rising market–so easy no one is worried about why an asset class is rising. Assets become irrationally overpriced, and people convince themselves it is NORMAL to make 25% on your house in one year…
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Yup. I figgure if I’m very frugal and budget the money I can quit working and just live off the cash-out refi every 2-3 years. /sarc
Fud
Fud
3 years ago
This is what Investopedia said for years (taken from Wayback Machine July 2018):
What is a ‘Recession’

A recession is a significant decline in economic activity that goes on for more than a few months. It is visible in industrial production, employment, real income and wholesale-retail trade. The technical indicator of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by a country’s gross domestic product (GDP), although the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) does not necessarily need to see this occur to call a recession.

They said NBER doesn’t require two consecutive quarters, so the 2020 steep and short COVID recession can still be called, but the people saying the current two in a row satisfies the “technical indicator” are correct (when using meanings from before the Orwellian redefinitions of everything from “vaccine” to “woman”). Now, even Investopedia has memory-holed the “technical” part and reworded the page to say two consecutive quarters is a “popular rule of thumb.”
Matt3
Matt3
3 years ago
If we are in recession or entering one it matters not. We are heading in the wrong direction and are not correcting. That’s bad.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt3
What makes you say we are not correcting ? Maybe we were in a bubble BECAUSE of all the money that thrown around by the government in 2020 and 2021.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
O/N RRPs are not recorded as subtractions from both reserves and the money stock as they should be. The FED’s technical staff has made a colossal mistake. The Gurley-Shaw thesis is nonsense (that there is no difference between money and liquid assets).
See: Liquidity Theory of Money by Radcliffe: Statement, Radcliffe Report and Evaluation | Economics (economicsdiscussion.net)
The nonbanks are the economic generators. The welfare of the banks is codependent upon the
welfare of the nonbanks (who put savings to work). The time-frame of any policy change, using interest rate manipulation as its monetary transmission
mechanism, under an ample reserves regime, is unknown and unknowable. The FED has lost control.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
“The Gurley-Shaw thesis is nonsense (that there is no difference between money and liquid assets).”
Well, you need to explain cryptocurrencies (I’ll likely agree with what you will say, but if the masses think otherwise). Doug Noland often speaks of the “moneyness” of assets (due to central banks stepping in repeatedly to bail out whatever asset in trouble. Much like how prior to 2008 recession subprime mortgages packaged into mbs and getting stamped AAA. Good as “money” …)
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Congrats on the May recession call. Ironically, your previous post was about the Inflation Reduction Act which has close to a trillion dollars in spend. Where do we go from here? Good times again or the recession blues?
Stocks seems to be climbing, not sure if that’s on Fed news or the Inflation Act or maybe both.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
Stocks are celebrating the return to ‘situation normal’. Unlimited gov’t spending, QE, and negative real rates–make it easy to make money.
shamrock
shamrock
3 years ago
The GDP deflator is different than the CPI, always has been. The GDP deflator does not count the price of imports or exports. It also measures all goods produced and consumed domestically, not just a sample basket like CPI.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  shamrock
Goods and services.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  shamrock
The gross domestic product implicit price deflator, or GDP deflator, measures changes in the prices of goods and services produced in the United States, including those exported to other countries. Prices of imports are excluded.
Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
The way things are going during this POST WWII monetarist experiment for the Roman Empire Version II
The comparison of the 2 year bond yield to the 10 year bond yield WILL NOT be the main leading recessionary indicator.
It appears that the: FED Funds Rate VERSUS the 10 year bond yield, WILL BE the new leading recessionary indicator!
Impossible to invert in the United States you say? I wouldn’t count on it.
Karlmarx
Karlmarx
3 years ago
Gotta disagree with you on this one Mish (and i rarely do)
I know that the boffins at NBER are a kind of self-appointed body that “officially” determines a recession, but that wont happen until we are in the middle of one – or later.
But…..
While GDP is measured using consumption, it is really supposed to be a measure of the total monetary or market value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country’s borders in a specific time period. The key word here is produced.
Based on that, we could probably argue that the US economy has likely not been out of a recession since at least 2008.
Since its difficult to find production data (believe me that is what i do for a living), the good Keynesians at BEA just substitute consumption, which can grow based on stuff completely unrelated to domestic production.
Since we don’t have statistics to calculate when a recession really happens, seems the two quarters of falling GDP is a perfectly good substitute. Easy to understand, and never a good sign of a strong and robust economy no matter what the White House claims.
So as far as I’m concerned, we have been in a recession for 6 months now.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  Karlmarx
I simply state the NBER will time this as May. My own opinion carries little weight.
But 2 Qs is a bad definition. Was there no Covid recession?
I look at it this way
2 Qs of declining baseline GDP is insufficient.
2 Qs of declining RFS is a sufficient but not necessary condition.
This allows for Covid as well as Big Down, Small Up, Big Down quarters pegged at the first Big Down.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
I simply state the NBER will time this as May. My own opinion carries little weight.
That’s a VERY fair comment. You’re calling it like you see it, and you are using traditional yardsticks. Moreover, you’re not doing the sky-is-falling thing, which we always hear when the economy is declining. You aren’t the NBER, and you are not responsible for how the NBER treats this. I’m skeptical of what I see as your sanguine outlook, but I take it quite seriously.
Karlmarx
Karlmarx
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
That’s what is great about economics. There are few right and wrong answers 🙂
As to the Covid recession, there were two consecutive quarters of falling GDP so it was a recession
Thetenyear
Thetenyear
3 years ago
Kudos to the Atlanta Fed?
As I just posted under “Based on analysis of the final Q2 GDPNOW, a recession started in May”; the ATL Fed data shows that GDPNOW peaks early, trends down over the posting period and closes closer to the lowest estimate than the highest estimate. Mish’s 2Q chart is a perfect example.
Anyone with the knowledge, firepower and data of the ATL fed should always nail it one day out. Their track record prior to one day out is not good.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  Thetenyear
The data changes so will the estimate. I agree that the GDPNOw preliminary estimate appears to be garbage, but if the BEA reported GDP monthly it would be close.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Mish, can you dive deeper into the deflator? Why does NBER use the one they use? What’s the history behind it?
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I have no idea. I would rather they use the CPI.
My estimates of Real Retail Sales is based on the CPI because know one knows what the hell the GDP deflator will be.
But it’s not the NBER that sets the deflator. It’s the BEA.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
No explanation from the BEA? How long have they used that deflator? Has that deflator changed? How did it figure into prior GDP calls?

If there’s a long history of using that deflator, and if it hasn’t changed, probably nothing to see there. On the other hand …

JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I looked it up myself, then remembered from my old days. The deflator has a long history, and makes conceptual sense when applied to GDP.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
This is silly. Seems like technically recessions never exist because at the time of their occurrence, they haven’t been designated. At which point the recession will be over. So the economy is never actually in a recession. It can only have been in one. Pretty sure many who went through the great depression knew they were in a depression at the time.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
The Fed wants cover so they can keep raising rates, and Senile Joe has obvious reasons. Exactly the same thing happened when Volcker started raising rates. This is Carter Redux. Not an exact copy, but quite close.
jivefive98
jivefive98
3 years ago
There is no way you can ramp up energy prices, which touches almost everything, and on top of that a mortgage and rent surge, and a natural gas/fertilizer/electricity surge, and not define somehow, somewhere, a recession, or whatever you want to call it. If we have to wait till Q2Q3Q4, I guess we wait. By that time, if natgas prices arent coming down ($1.24 per therm in Chicago in July — never been that high before), the recession, or whatever you call it, will be Q1Q2Q3Q4Q1Q2Q3Q4 over and over.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  jivefive98
That or people will be cold. Might be a good idea to start taking cold showers to get used to it.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  jivefive98
Have no idea when the NBER makes its determination.
I made mine months ago pegging May as the most likely date.
April retail sales were simply too hot for a Q1 recession.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
This winds up being a dive into the weeds. I have a hard time seeing two quarters down, but basically throwing out the first quarter because the first month of Q2 had a blip up in retail sales. That said, the next quarters are what will really tell the story. Recession starts and finishes are rarely, if ever, seen for what they are at the time. Even the biggies of ’79-’82 and the Panic of ’08 eluded the “experts” in the beginning.
One colloquial way you can tell it’s going down is to check the “this time it’s different” stories. “New rules?” There are never “new rules.” We’ve been inundated with that foolishness again this time. Recessions are far more alike than they are different, the main differences being their severity. You have a sanguine view of this one; from what I think I can follow, you think the labor market is so tight that this recession will do little more than reduce the hiring backlogs. I think those backlogs are less than what they seem to be.
In essence, you’re projecting a sort of surgical strike, or a neutron bomb of sorts. I hope you’re correct, but I have considerable doubt.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
How many of those April sales were from orders taken in previous months? With the covid/supply chain delays, I suspect accounting systems intervened. Recognition of a sale when goods left the warehouse/customer was actually billed could easily muddle the data to make April look ‘hot’.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
“April retail sales were simply too hot for a Q1 recession.”
April not typical month. Calendar effect in charge. 5 Fridays (payday) 5 Saturdays (good day shop for durable goods). Plus, Easter middle of month compared to early April for 2021.

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