Hooray! The Beat Goes On. More Support for Perpetual War

Henry Kissinger image from Tweet below

Kissinger Advises Ukraine

This is a reversal of #Kissinger position in the first weeks after the start of the #UkraineWar.Henry Kissinger advises Ukraine not to cede any territory to Russia.

Hooray! Perpetual War!

This news is just in the nick of time too, given the US withdrawal from Afghanistan that Trump promised but left up to Biden to do.

Phew! 

I was afraid that common sense might settle in and that Ukraine would negotiate a deal with Russia.

Who could possibly want that? 

The Beat Goes On

Clothes asides, here’s a timeless musical tribute by Sonny and Cher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS3O5zg290k

And the beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da
The grocery store’s the supermart, uh huh
Little girls still break their hearts, uh huh
And men still keep on marching off to war
Electrically they keep a baseball score

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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LawrenceBird
LawrenceBird
1 year ago
Dr. K said not long after his first remarks that people were reading too much into them and that he was not suggesting Ukraine give up territory.
Henry Kissinger: A curious aspect of this war is, it almost looks like World War I. If
one side clearly wins, then it will have profound consequences. I think
a negotiation is desirable. And I said so in Davos, and I was attacked
for it. But I think we will be heading in that direction.
Judy Woodruff: And your comments at Davos did draw criticism, attention. People were saying you were arguing for Ukraine to give up territory.
Henry Kissinger: No, but the funny thing is, I did not say that. What I said was, a cease-fire line should be drawn at where the war started. I think Russia should not gain anything from the war.
Judy Woodruff: Right now, Russia has almost complete control of the Donbass.
Henry Kissinger: Yes.
Judy Woodruff: They’re trying to consolidate that now. They have Crimea. If Russia were to say, OK, let’s have a truce, should Ukraine go along with that and let them have what they have got?
Henry Kissinger: It’s their country. And if they decide that, we would have to accept it. I would deplore it greatly. And I hope that decision will not be made.
mothman777
mothman777
1 year ago
There is no actual rationale for Kissinger now reversing on this issue, but his actual purpose can be adduced from tribal death cult scriptures quoted below, that being world domination and ultimately the extermination of all non-tribal members. In 1934, Leo Szilard, a tribal member himself, patented the explosive mechanism for the atom bomb in London, he then moved to America and furthered the research of another tribal member there who had patented the nuclear bomb, and created a dirty, salted version, the cobalt 60 nuclear bomb, patenting that version in 1950, he stated that just 400 of these devices detonated around the world would permanently exterminate all forms of life on the entire planet. And then of course, the patent was approved by the similarly criminally insane and these devices have actually been constructed, their purpose is obvious, the death cult threatened the Samson Option many years ago in Israhell where the secretive Dimona nuclear complex is maintained, and Putin has echoed the same threat on behalf of Russia, which is completely controlled by tribal interests as well, with Chabad Lubavitchers having been videoed wildly dancing and stomping in mass celebration waving both Russian and Ukrainian flags together to show their control of both sides when open hostilities broke out between Russia and Ukraine, both of which they state openly in video speeches recorded at their meetings are politically and economically controlled by them completely, with them really celebrating having forced the largely unconscious Gentile populations of these nations to destroy each other for their pleasure as part of ‘the great reset’. so prospects for the survival of life on this planet, at least in major areas, if not the entire planet, look bleak.
To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.
Libbre David 37
We beg Thee, O Lord, indict Thy wrath on the nations not believing in Thee, and not calling on Thy name. Let down Thy wrath on them and inflict them with Thy wrath. Drive them away in Thy wrath and crush them into pieces. Take away, O Lord, all bone from them. In a moment indict all disbelievers. Destroy in a moment all foes of Thy nation. Draw out with the root, disperse and ruin unworthy nations. Destroy them! Destroy them immediately, in this very moment!
Prayer said on the eve of Passover (Pranajtis: Christianus in Talmudae Judeorum, quotations from: Synagoga Judaica)
The Feast of Tabernacles is the period when Israel triumphs over the other people of the world. That is why during this feast we seize the loulab and carry it as a trophy to show that we have conquered all other peoples, known as “populace”…
Zohar, Toldoth Noah 63b
Happy will be the lost of Israel, whom the Holy One, blessed be He, has chosen from amongst the Goyim, of whom the Scriptures say: “Their work is but vanity, it is an illusion at which we must laugh; they will all perish when God visits them in His wrath.” At the moment when the Holy One, blessed be He, will exterminate all the Goyim of the world, Israel alone will subsist, even as it is written: “The Lord alone will appear great on that day!…
Zohar, Vayshlah 177b
And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
Isaiah 19:2 (three kingdoms existed in ancient Egypt but these kingdoms refer to consecutive time periods under different rulers, so ‘kingdom against kingdom’ cannot apply to just Egypt really as only ony one ruler existed at any one time, there were no other kingdoms in Egypt but one at any time, so the code word ‘Egypt’ actually means something quite different in reality, as the above verses show).
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Deuteronomy 20:16
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  mothman777
Well, there’s always that big tribal migration from Florida to Oklahoma.
And the really neat patent on a refrigerator Szilard and Einstein designed.
Etaoin Shrdlu
Etaoin Shrdlu
1 year ago

Isn’t that old devil dead yet? Hope he’s gone soon. Why even give him a forum?

prumbly
prumbly
1 year ago
And now we have the Bitch Queen determined to provoke China into a war. There is no real reason why she has to go to Taiwan, other than as a deliberate provocation. The big question is: why does the US want war with Russia and China? Personally I can’t see any benefit for anyone.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
A war would keep many serfs preoccupied.
JRM
JRM
1 year ago
Well now British Intel is reporting that Russia has amassed enough troops and armor into the Kherson region to keep pushing to Odessa!!!
Russia has deployed 3 pontoon bridges and have repaired one of the bridges attacked by Ukraine, so long for the WEST/Ukraine propaganda that Kherson is about to fall back to Ukraine control!!
Ukraine was forced to abandon two of the Ukrainian villages they captured near Kherson after a successful Russian counter attack..
I warned that once the Russian Naval Celebrations were over, watch Russia to go back on their offense!! Which were held on 7/31!!!
Jackula
Jackula
1 year ago
The establishment BS here in the US: “Russians are gonna run outta munitions”, “their financial system is gonna collapse”, “Ukraine is winning”. Please, the Russians have a good sized army way bigger than Ukraine’s, have one of the best run central banks in the world, they are a major arms manufacturer and exporter, and a major food and energy exporter. Russia’s biggest problem is demographics and all the US needs is patience
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  Jackula
“While Establishment Media Pushes Delusional Narrative on Ukraine, US Military Brass Now Recognizes the War is Lost”
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
I don’t believe either the Russian or the Ukrainian propaganda, nor any projections. If one side starts pushing the other one back, well that’s a sign of how things age going. After the initial invasion, it’s been some positive movement from both sides, and some negative. What will the map look like come winter? I have no idea.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Jackula
Europe’s financial system is about to collapse. And if that happens, the US will soon follow. Outside of Europe, what allies do we have? Australia, Japan and South Korea. All countries that can easily switch over to China.
Christoball
Christoball
1 year ago
Just another central bank war. We can all relax.
prumbly
prumbly
1 year ago
Back in reality-land, Ukraine is almost finished. Yes, I know our media keeps parroting unfiltered Ukrainian propaganda about how they just killed 100 million Russian soldiers, and how all the Russian high-precision missiles never strike military targets but instead destroy apartment blocks, schools, hospitals and churches. But in reality-land Ukraine’s troops are advancing backwards and those retreating Russians keep taking more territory. It should be obvious that Russia is winning this and they will do whatever it takes.
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
Now the establishment media is running the “Ukraine is winning!” (so we have to send more weapons to Ukraine) stories and the “Russia’s brutal attack continues!” (so we have to send more weapons to Ukraine) stories on alternate days.
hmk
hmk
1 year ago
Did Kissinger cite the rational for his change of mind?
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
99.9 years old. Who cares either way.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Too funny! I remember how many of you here were roundly applauding when Kissinger was quoted suggesting that Ukraine give up it’s battle with Russia, cede the land that Russia now occupies and have peace. [lol]
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
A negotiated settlement is totally unrealistic and would not solve the problem. It would just be a breathing spell for Russia to rebuild it’s economy and armed forces for further conquests. That much is clear.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Clear as mud. So we can never have peace because Russia wants to fight a never ending war. Total nonsense.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  KidHorn
As long as Russia tries to conquer land that isn’t theirs there will be war because the people in those lands that Russia covets fight back. It should be clear.
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
Poland was born in Paris 1921. HK : Poland was sandwiched between two mighty enemies : Russia and Germany. // Japan got the German
colonies in China, a bribe, in Paris 1921. Stalin was obsessed with Japan which stayed in Siberia while the rest of Wilson Expedition Force left. Stalin bribed Japan, a bone in the throat. He gave them a full control of Trans Siberia R/R in Manchuria, sent 70K Ruskies troops ” home” to Siberia to rot, made a trade with Hirohito : next time attack US, not us.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
Look.
This whole part of the world has been going to the dogs ever since the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth fell apart.
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
Iran, an observer state, might become a full member after SCO in Tashkent this weekend. SCO : Shanghai Cooperation Org. Nancy Pelosi counterattack. India is a relay station between SCO and US.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
Probably wouldn’t have these problems if the Warsaw Pact was still together.
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
1 year ago
Biden and Blinken covering up their crimes, Obama calling them nightly to make sure they stay the course….
all of these sheep who believe a word from democrats or republicans are actually able to vote….
that is the downfall of America….Dumbed down to the hilt
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
Captain, WWII started on May 10 1940, a right hook, bypassing 450,000 British Expedition Force threatening the Rhine since Germany invaded Poland. Germany let the Brits go through Dunkirk 7 miles from the Belgian border.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
8dots, WWII started on 13 March 1938 with the invasion and annexation of Austria (the Anschluss).
I suppose Brits like the 10 May 1940 date.
Most Americans probably believe it started 7 December of 1941.
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
Henry Kissinger: “Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control people.”
Epoch Times: “If left unchecked, multiple experts said, the U.N.-backed sustainability
policies on agriculture and food production would lead to economic
devastation, shortages of critical goods, widespread famine, and a
dramatic loss of individual freedoms.”
MPO45
MPO45
1 year ago
Reply to  RonJ
Excellent point, I will look into buying shares of ADM, may pull the trigger on Monday. For every crisis, there is a profit to be made somewhere.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  MPO45
Isn’t it more profitable to buy a home from a fresh divorce’ or a widow, or perhaps folks with a big medical emergency?
You know, motivated sellers!
Christoball
Christoball
1 year ago
Reply to  RonJ
Reminds me of China’s Great Leap Forward in which between 30 and 45 million Chinese citizens died due to famine.
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
Reply to  Christoball
“Indeed, several of the U.N.’s 17 Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs)
are directly implicated in policies that are squeezing farmers,
ranchers, and food supplies around the world.”
Except this time, the Great Leap Forward is apparently global. The Dutch farmers, Trudeau restricting fertilizer that is alleged to reduce Canadian crops by 30%. A Youtube video of American actress Nicole Kidman happily munching various insects. It is out in the open, that this is the intent for the future and not just in some far away land.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  RonJ
Don’t you find it reminiscent of the Whizzo Chocolate Company’s Cockroach Cluster.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Cher that great Libertarian. I wonder why there are cows in the clip. Is there a deeper meaning to it?
Carl_R
Carl_R
1 year ago
I don’t know that there is an option that avoids perpetual war. Certainly, for Ukraine to cede part of their territory will bring temporary peace, but for how long? Russia, in recent years, has conquered Chechnya, taken land from Georgia, taken Crimea, and now has taken much of eastern and southern Ukraine. Why would anyone think “Ok, this is all they want, and they will stop now”? In fact, we already know that Russia wants part of Moldova as well.
Refusing to cede part of Ukraine may lead to perpetual war, but ceding part of Ukraine to Russia will also lead to perpetual war. This is a lose-lose situation, where there is no winning answer. Well, I guess there is one: If by some miracle, Ukraine manages to drive Russia out of Ukraine, we very well might have a peace that lasts awhile. That, unfortunately, is unlikely to happen, though.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl_R
There may be a bigger picture here than the remnants of the Soviet empire.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl_R
I have a feeling that the temporary peace obtained by Ukraine pushing Russia out would be considerable shorter than the peace obtained by returning part of Ukraine to Russia.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Fiona Hill: Putin’s Running Out of Time
July 14, 2022
A top Russia advisor to three U.S. presidents explains why the world shouldn’t fall for Moscow’s narrative that it can wait out the West in Ukraine.
One of the reasons why it’s so difficult to predict how the war in Ukraine will end is because Russian President Vladimir Putin has designed it as such. He kept the world guessing in the days leading up to the war; policymakers around the world are still trying to figure out when he might declare an end to his so-called special military operation.
Although the balance of play has shifted month to month since the fighting began on Feb. 24, Russia has recently seemed on the ascendancy. Its military has gobbled up much of Luhansk in the country’s east and is now seeking to make further inroads to the southwest in Donetsk, taking over the area known as the Donbas. But as FP’s Jack Detsch writes, Moscow’s forays into new territory have “left itself open to a counterpunch,” with Kyiv using U.S.-provided High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, to attack deep behind Russian lines.
I spoke with Hill as part of FP Live, the magazine’s forum for live journalism. You can watch our full discussion on video in the box below. What follows is an edited and condensed transcript.
….
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Your link goes to a crappy website reporting back to Facebook.
That said, Hill got one thing right. Putin is difficult to predict, as expected for a chess master and ex-KGB colonel. As cunning/devious as Niccolò Machiavelli, he does not play by normative rules.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
He is easy to predict. He will just keep doubling down no matter what. He is on a treadmill that he cannot step off because if he does he dies. When 2014 didn’t work out as he thought he doubled down by invading.
happypuppy888
happypuppy888
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Really? Please stick with your stock picks, at least those sound half-believable.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  happypuppy888
You gave a stock reply to someone who has never given a stock pick in Mish’s blog.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
No it doesn’t. The link goes to the article.
Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Link worked fine for me.
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Running out of time?! This “running out of ….” BS has been going on for months. Russia/Putin running out of money/options/weapons/manpower/steam/ideas/tanks/chips/troops/equipment/ammo…..
The only reason the media can continue to indulge in such BS is because the sheeple have kept on on buying it!
Is Russia Running Out of Money? – Apr 26, 2022 – Trustnodes
Russia needs to sell oil. It’s running out of options – May 9, 2022 – CNN Business
Russia running out of weapons, can be defeated by Ukraine – UK Secretary – May 9, 2022 – Daily Trust
‘Russia is running out of manpower’ and Putin may have to shrink his war aims more: national security analyst – May 16, 2022 – Raw Story
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is running out of steam, again – May 16, 2022 – Economiest
Vladimir Putin is running out of options to avoid defeat in Ukraine – May 17, 2022 – Atlantic Council
Crippled Russia running out of weapons as embarrassing war ending looms ‘Shockingly inept’ – May 21, 2022 – Express
Russia ‘running out of ideas’ in 3-month-old war. Can Ukraine win? – May 24, 2022 – Global News
The Russian Army Is Running Out Of Tanks For The War In Ukraine. These 60-Year-Old T-62s Are Proof. – May 25, 2022 – Forbes
Russia sanctions: Now the country is also running out of chips – Jun 2, 2022 – Basic Tutorials
Russia running out of troops and equipment as ‘catastrophic’ war hits 100 days – experts – Jun 3, 2022 – Daily Star
Time is running out for Russia, German economy minister says – Jun 2, 2022 – Reuters
Vladimir Putin running out of soldiers as catastrophic Ukraine invasion hits 100 days – Jun 4, 2022 – Mirror
Russian Army Running Out Of Ammo, But War To Continue For ‘Long Time’: Western Officials – Jun 22, 2022 – IBT
Russian Army Could Soon Run out of Weapons and Troops: Boris Johnson – Jun 22, 2022 – Newsweek
Russia will soon exhaust its combat capabilities, Western assessments predict – June 25, 2022 – Washington Post
Let’s add this one to the list!
Putin’s Running Out of Time – Fiona Hill – July 14, 2022 – foreignpolicy.com
LMAO!
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
LOL. Russia/Putin has been “running out of …” money/options/weapons/manpower/steam/ideas/tanks/chips/troops/equipment/ammo/…. for months now!
Is Russia Running Out of Money? – Apr 26, 2022 – Trustnodes
Russia needs to sell oil. It’s running out of options – May 9, 2022 – CNN Business
Russia running out of weapons, can be defeated by Ukraine – UK Secretary – May 9, 2022 – Daily Trust
‘Russia is running out of manpower’ and Putin may have to shrink his war aims more: national security analyst – May 16, 2022 – Raw Story
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is running out of steam, again – May 16, 2022 – Economiest
Vladimir Putin is running out of options to avoid defeat in Ukraine – May 17, 2022 – Atlantic Council
Crippled Russia running out of weapons as embarrassing war ending looms ‘Shockingly inept’ – May 21, 2022 – Express
Russia ‘running out of ideas’ in 3-month-old war. Can Ukraine win? – May 24, 2022 – Global News
The Russian Army Is Running Out Of Tanks For The War In Ukraine. These 60-Year-Old T-62s Are Proof. – May 25, 2022 – Forbes
Russia sanctions: Now the country is also running out of chips – Jun 2, 2022 – Basic Tutorials
Russia running out of troops and equipment as ‘catastrophic’ war hits 100 days – experts – Jun 3, 2022 – Daily Star
Time is running out for Russia, German economy minister says – Jun 2, 2022 – Reuters
Vladimir Putin running out of soldiers as catastrophic Ukraine invasion hits 100 days – Jun 4, 2022 – Mirror
Russian Army Running Out Of Ammo, But War To Continue For ‘Long Time’: Western Officials – Jun 22, 2022 – IBT
Russian Army Could Soon Run out of Weapons and Troops: Boris Johnson – Jun 22, 2022 – Newsweek
Russia will soon exhaust its combat capabilities, Western assessments predict – June 25, 2022 – Washington Post
Let us add this one!

Putin Running Out of Time – Jul 14, 2022 – foreignpolicy.com

LMAO!

worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
“given the US withdrawal from Afghanistan that Trump promised but left up to Biden to do.”
What does Trump have to do with Ukraine? The Afhgan fiasco is going to be one of many screwups Biden is going to have to own.
Trump thought he was going to win the election, so there wasn’t anything wrong with him leaving that controversial pullout until a 2nd term.
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
I agree. In fact, during the Trump impeachment trial, the DONORcrat prosecuting team leader said they are using Ukraine as cannon fodder.

link to twitter.com

worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
So, Ukraine is supposed to give up territory just to end the Russian agrression? Then what? Is that supposed to bring Russia to the treaty table?
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Mish, stick with economics.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Maybe if we gave them Texas, they’d stop invading their neighbors.
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
The time for that has gone. Prior to Feb, they could have agreed to actually abide by Minsk and Minsk 2 accords, and the Donbas would still be a part of Ukraine, but with a greater degree of autonomy than the other provinces.

But US/NATO would have none of it. They used Ukraine as a stick to beat Russia with. They don’t give a damn what happens to Ukraine, because when you use a stick to beat an adversary, you don’t care if the stick gets broken.

FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
Kissinger ? Someone must have changed his diaper making him feeling fresh again …..
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Putin can change his own diaper for the moment.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Anyway, Donbass will probably totally liberated in August. This is a very populated place, with many Ukrainian fortifications. After that, in the west, Ukrainian resistance will be much more complicated.
Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Will take more than a month to remove the invading Russians from Donbass.
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack
they will never be rooted out of there….Ukraine needs to just give it to Russia, its why the Obama coup took place..
On Dementia Joe swear in the Ukrainians broke the cease fire and started pounding Donbas…..
Wag the dog
effendi
effendi
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack
Most of the troops fighting in the Donbas are locals. The Russian troops were invited by the locals. The Ukraine army has been shelling the locals who refused to bow down to the thugs who seized power in Kyev in 2014 and in February the Ukrainians were preparing a major attack. So Putin sent support to the breakaway republics. The Ukrainians have expanded the draft to 70 year olds, hardly a sign that they will win. Zelensky is coked up , paranoid and just wants to enjoy his 2 billion and his Miami penthouse when this is over. Most Ukrainians want it over, just the fanatics dream of winning against Russia. When they lose the various parts of Ukraine will chose their future with the predominantly Russian parts probably choosing union with Russia and the rest likely choosing to remain as a rump Ukraine. Russia will demand that they remain demilitarised. Bit like Austria after 1945. Putin is neither evil nor a saint, he is rational and is playing chess to the EU/US checkers and is toying with them like a cat does to a sickly mouse.
My biggest regret is that the West is pushing Russia to align with China. Madness when Russia should have been invited into the Wests team.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  effendi
China doesn’t “align” with anybody. China is playing the game of looking like it supports Russia but is really looking for how much advantage it can gain over Russia. Russia is China’s bi*tch.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
What it comes down to is that I and many others would not feel comfortable in a world dominated by the likes of Putin and Xi. To keep that happening then we must resist and push back. If we wait and say that it is far away and not my problem then Putin, Xi and the likes will gain enough strength to eventually overwhelm us and since I like us better than I like them I do not want that to happen then remaining passive is not a viable strategy. It is just hiding your head in the sand.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Irak and Lybia tell another story.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Sideshows only. This is existential. I thought you understood that. Europe sees it as existential as well as the US. Russia does also.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
If Europe falls it will be a good thing for me. Anyway, it is continuously falling since half of a century.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
I rarely read the political stuff here. Mostly people wasting time arguing about things they have no control over. However, I decided to have a look at this discussion. I got as far as your comment.
Your comment struck me as so incredibly foolish that I felt compelled to reply.
Why do so many here wish for catastrophes? Europe falls is good?
Anyway. I am done with this discussion. I can’t bear to read any more of it.
See you all some other time.
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Um. Well, there are factions in the US and Europe who see Ukraine as existential. Granted, those factions are heavy on the national-defense types. But they are a faction, at best.
If Ukraine had folded, as could be expected of a corrupt kleptocracy – expected by people who choose not to live in corrupt kleptocracys – you can bet that the media noises would be, like for the last 5 decades, “another failure on the part of the US military industrial complex.” (Gulf War 1 being an exceptional embarrassment to the media)
That said, I’m with you on both Putin and Xi. I’m just not particularly worried about either. But, then, I wasn’t worried about the Soviet Union, either.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
Someone has to worry about these problems because they don’t get fixed by themselves. Most people won’t worry until the problem is the next county over but by then it’s too late. Nobody in Europe was worried about Putin until he brought back massive death and destruction on the country next door and then it became their problem hence Europe’s violent reaction.
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Well, problems do, indeed, fix themselves often enough. (Digression: When I had my problem solving hat on, I noticed problems ate things they contact, spreading themselves thereby. Normally, that’s a bad thing, but I noticed I could solve a problem miraculously by simply putting the problem in contact with another problem. Poof. They “ate” each other! Two intractable birds with one stone. I wish I could remember a specific example to make the story clearer. Sigh.)
Too, it can be better to let the problem get close before dealing with it. You want the enemy’s supply line to be long and yours short, after all.
Anyway, in this case, Putin has hit the wall. It’s over. He’s not going west. And can’t anyway, as a glance at a map of huge, unoccupied, resource-rich territory due north of people-rich China can tell us.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
He can’t go west anymore because we reacted in helping Ukraine and putting on sanctions. If the West had not it would another situation entirely.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Rockwell and Lockheed and BAE see this as existential.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Then, the one thing ‘we’ must do is keep Russia and China separated. Not push them closer together, because then they have the ‘strength’ and landmass to achieve victory, economically and politically.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
China right now is looking at Russia and seeing a loser. I mean Putin talked big and couldn’t deliver. Xi on the other hand is looking to see what concessions the US can give him to slow go China support for Russia. Taiwan is off the table but maybe something else could be interesting.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
You have NO idea what China is seeing, and neither do I.
I do see a map of the world though, and an alliance stretching across Asia. I also see a large part of the world turning against US hegemony, an increasingly divided US, vast debt, and a demented corrupt president who is laughed at even by US’ allies.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
What I see is Russia holding land that Russia got by what China sees as “unequal treaties”. I do know they want it back.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Agreed! And I see a CBDC yuan already in use ascending rapidly over the next 10 displacing the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency. And when that happens, we’re f’ed. I see a Chinese military already surpassing the US in key areas. In 10 years, I see US students going to China for some of the world’s best education / job opportunities. I see a Chinese economy pushing past ours in the next 5-7 years. I see a Chinese energy supply that is WAY more diverse than ours over the next 10-15 years, giving them enormous advantage.
And here in the US, we can’t even get our heads out of our asses to agree that China is on the verge of displacing us as the world’s superpower. The US, Japan, UK, Australia, Germany, France, India, SK, and Tiawan had better form a global military / economic alliance or we’re screwed. Yes, I included Tiawan, because we all know that Pelosi ain’t going to go there, because China would divulge all sorts of voodoo Biden crap that would bring him down sooner than the DNC wants it to happen.
There were good reasons not to like Trump as a person, but my gawd FJB is a national embarrassment. History will not be kind to FJB or those who brought his morally bankrupt goons into office. He’s going to let at least 8M illegals into the country in four short years. What kind of upward pressure is THAT going to put on rent? People, rent is 31% of CPI!!! And Laura Logon is reporting that FJB is giving these people SSN. That’s CRAZY!
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Chinese Communist Party Threat Is ‘Massive’: FBI and MI5 Directors
July 6, 2022 Updated: July 8, 2022
Leaders from the UK and U.S. domestic intelligence agencies delivered a rare joint statement on July 6, warning that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is the greatest threat to the international order.
“The most game-changing challenge we face comes from the Chinese Communist Party,” MI5 Director General Ken McCallum said. “It’s covertly applying pressure across the globe. This might feel abstract. But it’s real and it’s pressing. We need to talk about it. We need to act.”
McCallum described the CCP’s aggression as a “massive shared challenge” for the UK and the United States. He said the communist regime is organizing the whole of China’s state apparatus to systematically undermine the West and steal advanced technologies.
….
dmartin
dmartin
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
You can thank Biden in pushing China and Russia together. It was right after Biden targeted China with highly dubious claims of Genocide which our state dept attorney’s said there wasn’t evidence for that we saw the commitment between the 2 countries at the Olympics. Come to think of it, after Biden labeled Saudia Arabia a human rights violator, Saudia Arabia ran to China. The weaponizing of human rights by the Biden administration has been a one way ticket to have enemies come closer and piss off friends to go a work with our enemies! Lol
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
RonJ, WWII started when GB elected Churchill. Since Paris 1921 the war against Germany cont There were several regional wars between
the the wars, until the British elected an aggressive media guy, a fail Exchequer and the Gallipoli campaign. FDR couldn’t stand him…
but historians don’t care, because they need a legend.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
WW II started when Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland in September 1939. Winston Churchill became Prime Minister only in May 1940 eight months into the war.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Nope, WWII started when Germany invaded and annexed Austria in 1938.
Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
Suggest you stop with abbreviations, check your grammar, proof read your copy, then read it out loud to ensure makes sense.
This, or get better drugs.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack
TINA 2 FOMO 😉
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
History:
Technically WW2 is generally considered to have begun on 1 September 1939 when Germany invaded Poland. Britain declared war two days later. Churchill took office on May 10, 1940. EIGHT MONTHS LATER
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland together.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Afraid not. The Soviet invasion of Poland started on 17 September. After war was declared.
That said, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (to partition Poland) was signed in Moscow on 23 August 1939
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
A whole sixteen days after Germany. I understand why you want to whitewash Russia but nobody else does. Guilty is guilty. Moby Dick will win out.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
You are right about the ill-conceived Gallipoli campaign. Churchill used Australian and New Zealand troops for that reason. He tried the same thing in WW2, wanting Australian troops to defend India from Japan (and screw Australia). The Australian Prime Minister refused. Australian troops fought in New Guinea instead, to prevent the Japanese advance.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Actually, the Russian Economy Is Imploding
Nine myths about the effects of sanctions and business retreats, debunked.
By Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, the Lester Crown professor in management practice and a senior associate dean at the Yale School of Management, and Steven Tian, the director of research at the Yale Chief Executive Leadership Institute.
JULY 22, 2022, 5:56 PM
Five months into the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there remains a startling lack of understanding by many Western policymakers and commentators of the economic dimensions of President Vladimir Putin’s invasion and what it has meant for Russia’s economic positioning both domestically and globally.
Far from being ineffective or disappointing, as many have argued, international sanctions and voluntary business retreats have exerted a devastating effect over Russia’s economy. The deteriorating economy has served as a powerful if underappreciated complement to the deteriorating political landscape facing Putin.
That these misunderstandings persist is not entirely surprising given the lack of available economic data. In fact, many of the excessively sanguine Russian economic analyses, forecasts, and projections that have proliferated in recent months share a crucial methodological flaw: These analyses draw most, if not all, of their underlying evidence from periodic economic releases by the Russian government itself. Numbers released by the Kremlin have long been held to be largely if not always credible, but there are certain problems.
First, the Kremlin’s economic releases are becoming increasingly cherry-picked—partial and incomplete, selectively tossing out unfavorable metrics. The Russian government has progressively withheld an increasing number of key statistics that, prior to the war, were updated on a monthly basis, including all foreign trade data. Among these are statistics relating to exports and imports, particularly with Europe; oil and gas monthly output data; commodity export quantities; capital inflows and outflows; financial statements of major companies, which used to be released on a mandatory basis by companies themselves; central bank monetary base data; foreign direct investment data; lending and loan origination data; and other data related to the availability of credit. Even Rosaviatsiya, the federal air transport agency, abruptly ceased publishing data on airline and airport passenger volumes.
Since the Kremlin stopped releasing updated numbers, constraining the availability of economic data for researchers to draw upon, many excessively rosy economic forecasts have irrationally extrapolated economic releases from the early days of the invasion, when sanctions and the business retreat had not taken full effect. Even those favorable statistics that have been released are dubious, given the political pressure the Kremlin has exerted to corrupt statistical integrity.
Mindful of the dangers of accepting Kremlin statistics at face value, our team of experts, using private Russian-language and direct data sources including high-frequency consumer data, cross-channel checks, releases from Russia’s international trade partners, and data mining of complex shipping data, have released one of the first comprehensive economic analyses measuring Russian current economic activity five months into the invasion, with contributions from Franek Sokolowski, Michal Wyrebkowski, Mateusz Kasprowicz, Michal Boron, Yash Bhansali, and Ryan Vakil. From our analysis, it becomes clear: Business retreats and sanctions are crushing the Russian economy in the short term and the long term. Based on our research, we are able to challenge nine widely held but misleading myths about Russia’s supposed economic resilience.
….
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
WISHFUL THINKING sonny ! ….Instead of concentrating on a debt free, entirely self sufficient nation , I d suggest you ve a closer look at the dire situation, money printing , debt ridden, inflation suffering, resources lacking, climate change affected , western nations are in ….apart from the perspective of being annihilated in the imminent war with Russia, provoked by the very money printing , debt ridden , inflation suffering , resources lacking , climate change affected, utterly deluded fn West, at the end of its fn wits !
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
zero inflation in Russia now
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
That’s funny. The Russian central bank published that annual inflation fell to 15.9% in June, compared with 17.1% in May, Don’t believe me but take from the horse’s mouth. The inflation rate is written on the right-hand side.
In June it was 15.9% and if, as you said, at zero now that means in one month it dropped 15.9%. If true then I would say that a drop like that would indicate a total collapse of the economy. What do you think? Could it be that you are wrong?
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Of course I did not say that the annual inflation rate has come to 0, because it it contains the initial shock of February and March. It is the inflation of the last months.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
you said “zero inflation in Russia now”. The statement is simple and clear and false. You did not know Russia’s inflation rate when you wrote it. The Russian Central Bank says that inflation in February 2022 was 9.1% before the invasion. In subsequent months it shot up to over 17% and the RCB expects it to drop back down to 10% by the end of the year. That is a drop in the inflation rate to a still very high level and not “zero inflation” no matter how you look at it. Before you write a fact you should really check it out first to see if it is true or not.
Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Coincidence it is 0.00%.
Maybe more like a NA (i.e., info not available) lol.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Do Jeffrey Sonnenfeld and Steven Tian have any expertise in Russian economics, politics, etc? Both these guys are ‘management experts.’ Do they even speak Russian? Apparently, they depend on a ‘team of experts’?
The comment from FromBrussels2 is apropos. The West is also in a dire situation.
My point here is NOT to advance Russia, but to point out that all sources and opinions are very much in doubt.
When the subject at hand is politicized, critical thinking stops.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I’d wager they have more experience than you or anyone else posting here. Kneel to your betters!
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Thank Goodness!
You’re doing God’s work.
Of course none of your work is irrationally extrapolated.
Quick, someone in the Government send them more funding before it’s too late.
You can’t do research like this on an empty stomach.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
I’m Ukraine’s Foreign Minister. Putin Must Be Stopped
July 29, 2022, 1:00 a.m. ET
By Dmytro Kuleba
Mr. Kuleba is the foreign minister of Ukraine.
KYIV, Ukraine — Russia, apparently, is ready for a cease-fire. The door to negotiations, the Kremlin’s spokesman said last week, has never been closed.
No one should be fooled. Whatever its officials may say, Russia remains focused on war and aims to ruin Ukraine and shatter the West. The sight of Odesa, hit by Russian missiles just hours after a deal was reached to allow grain exports from southern ports, should dispel any lingering naïveté. For Vladimir Putin, a cease-fire now would simply allow his depleted invasion forces to take a break before returning for further aggression.
The truth is simple: Mr. Putin will not stop until he is stopped. That’s why calls for a cease-fire, audible across Europe and America, are badly misplaced. This is not the time to accept unfavorable cease-fire proposals or peace deals. The task instead is to defeat Russia and limit its ability to attack anyone again in the foreseeable future. With sustained and timely assistance, Ukraine is ready and able to do so.
No one wanted this war other than Russia, and no country in the world craves peace more than Ukraine. But a lasting, durable peace — rather than the time bomb of a frozen conflict — is possible only after Russia suffers a major battleground defeat. That’s why Ukraine must win. Only then will Mr. Putin seek peace, not war.
….
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
If they craved peace, why did they launch the anti-terrorist operation in the East?
Why did they send the Nazi Azov battalion to Mariupol after they voted to secede?
If they craved peace, why not hold up their end of the Minsk accords?
Why not accept Putin’s offer of a ceasefire on Feb 23 before the Russians crossed the border?
Why fire shells on Russian peace-keepers in Donetsk if you are not a member of a death cult?
What’s all this business with commemoration of Nazi’s and the Galician SS division, the nazi regalia, the ‘see you in Walhalla’ berserker identity?
Why the SBU persecution and torture of opposition figures, or death lists and murders of journalists?
Why amass 150K troops in the Donbas? Why the plans to run over Donetsk in a final solution?
Why all the nato involvement, trainers, academies, joint exercises involving defensive storming of the beach?
None of this sounds like live and let live.
Has Russia actually stopped a single grain ship? Let alone fire on them?
Or have they been announcing a humanitarian corridor to international water every day on maritime channels since the beginning of May?
Russia is not going to suffer a major battleground defeat … who will deliver on this?
Banging on about this means you are part of a death cult.
These people are leading Ukraine over the cliff’s edge, and the West is happy to assist.
Don’t believe a word from any of the people in this regime: they will say and do anything.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
I believe Dmytro Kuleba is on Twitter and other SM. You can go argue with him directly.
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
GREAT COMMENT !
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
When was the last russian advance?
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
  • I have never read more gullible bs, at least not this week anyway,….the West = fn US of A, does NOT want a ceasefire , the fn US wants WAR, creating division in Europe, WAR is business, any business and division creating is good for the fn US of A …..
Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Funny you should say thar the US wants war at the same time Russia invades it’s neighbors.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack
Not a war. It’s a “special operation”. Yuck, yuck.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack
What do you think of the American invasion of Somalia the third week of May 2022 ?
They’re calling it a ‘special operation.’
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Difficult presidential elections?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Now, let’s try to think this through critically… What is Dmytro Kuleba’s motivation in writing this article?
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
To lay out the facts.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
1 year ago
If Russia want the ethnic russian parts of Ukraine; then russia must 1.) allow all of those who do not want to be under russian rule to leave and 2.) pay for all the destruction in the remaining parts of Ukraine.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Six000mileyear

Russia never keeps promises. That deal would last 6 months.

Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
“I was afraid that common sense might settle in and that Ukraine would negotiate a deal with Russia.”
——–
They can still negotiate a deal with Russia. That deal should be that Putin withdraws all forces from Ukraine territory based on the pre-2014 borders and pays for all the damages he instigated since the invasion start on 2/24/2022. Easy peasy, no?
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
What about the violated Minsk agreements, NATO s promise not to expand , Vicky Nulands-Fck Europe coup, the outrageous discrimination of pro russian regions by Kiev /US sponsered NAZI criminals ? Putin s restraint has been admirable, he should now indiscriminately CARPET BOMB the lying cheatin criminal corrupt Kiev pirate nest , just like NATO did in Belgrado in 1999….and US in Iraq, murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents ! SLAVA ROSSIYA !
Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Some people also believe that the earth is flat.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Whataboutism is always a weak argument.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Why not Ukraine’s 1914 borders?
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
No need to post anything more stupid than your usual.
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
MacArthur had North Korea on the run after Inchon. He then planned to go to the Chinese border. China then threatened to enter the war if U.S. troops went north of the 38th. MacArthur assured Truman that wouldn’t happen. Turned out, it did.
Kissinger changes his mind. What if Xi and Putin do?
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
Reply to  RonJ
The trend was up, don’t fight the trend : in Oct 1949 general Marshall lost China. After MacArthur dared, China invaded. China don’t need
Yankees in Manchuria. // After “I like Ike” nuke threats, a ceasefire. It lasted 70 years. // Putin dissected Ukraine. The invaded
territory looks like Italy. Russia might consolidate, bleed Europe for years, before signing a ceasefire. It might last like the one in the Golan Heights, engineered by the 100Y HK.
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
WWIII isn’t starting : a protracted war between Hezollah and Israel to bleed US, to diminish a major US ally, that what XI, and Iran might be
cooking in their kitchen cabinet. before Feb 2023 Xi election, as a diversion from China RE and banking problems. Sin is China.
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
WWII didn’t start out as WWII. It started out as Germany invades and occupies Poland.
SleemoG
SleemoG
1 year ago
Reply to  RonJ
Soviet Union invaded Poland almost simultaneously with Germany — forgotten history that Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Curiously though, UK and France declared war only on Germany not the Soviet Union although both violated Polish sovereignty.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  SleemoG
They saw Germany as the greater menace.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
We have basically a pervasive absence of trust, hence the military option is the only one left.
It was hard and long slog to get there.
That Olympic games are used as a covet to start a conflict is just a beginning.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Things are also deteriorating about Taiwan. Finally Pelosi decided to avoid it.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
“I was afraid that common sense might settle in and that Ukraine would negotiate a deal with Russia.”
If you negotiate to give land that isn’t yours to a country whose land it isn’t either then you are setting yourself up for ceding further concessions to the said country later on.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Serbia had to give a part of her land, and this was stirred by US. So why not for Ukraine ?
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Come on Dutoit. Ukraine is not Russia. Kosovo used to be Serb a hundred and fifty years ago but the Serbs abandoned it demographically and economically in their rush to control all of Yugoslavia. The result is that Kosovo is no longer Serb in anything. Time moves on and if you decide not to defend it you lose it and Serbia lost it long before Nato intervened. Russia lost Ukraine, wants it back but doesn’t have the resources to get it back. Although some Serbs dream on getting back Kosovo, Montenegro, Croatia and Slovenia you know that that will not happen.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
One should ask people in Donbass and Crimea, and maybe other parts of Ukraine, if they feel Ukrainian in anything.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
You should ask also the Chechens if they feel Russian and well as other minority groups in Russia who are dying in Ukraine in greater proportion than ethnic Russians.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
If they want to be Russian, they can move back into the country proper.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
What are you prattling about? The Donbas and Novorossiya were always Russians, the people are Russian, and the speak Russian.
The people voted overwhelmingly to secede in 2014, at which point the Nazi Azov and other battalions were sent in an ‘anti-terrorist operation’. The resulting genocide and domestic pressures is what forced Putin’s hand to intercede, knowing a blitzkrieg by 150K Nato trained and equipped Ukr troops was days away.
hmk
hmk
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
EXACTLY. I wonder why this isn’t well know. Since Zelensky is jewish there is no way he would allow a Nazi Azof battalion to exist. I have heard this from the MSM before. Its pathetic how dumb people are. They slurp up the useless propaganda from both the conservative and liberal media scripted out and supplied by their money masters. You would think people would wake up after the weapons of mass destruction lies from the war criminal Bush jr.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
If they are Russian then why are they resisting Russian forces? Could it be that they do not see themselves as Russian? Could it be that they do not want to be ruled by Russia? Russia invaded them in 2014 and Ukraine reacted and somehow you think that is not fair somehow. The massive uprising of Russian-speakers that Putin expected then did not happen. Perhaps you should ask yourself why so few of them want to live under the Russian system.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Russia did not invade Donetsk and Lugansk in 2014. They decided to be independent, and now they form a big part of the soldiers that fight in Donbass on the Russian side.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Total bull. You know it and I know it. Russian forces did the fighting while the men in Donetsk and Lugansk were and are canon fodder.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Dutoit
A part of a country can no more decide to be independent on their own than TX can decide to secede from the USA.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
They are not resisting Russian forces. These militia’s have kept the Ukr army out for 8 years. All these territories had overwhelming majorities vote for secession in 2014. The resistance comes from Kiev and the Western part of the country.
There was no invasion in 2014. Crimea seceded. The troops in Crimea were there already, in accordance with a treaty permitting 25.000 Russian troops in Crimea, a number which has never been reached.
The massive uprising happened already in 2014 when Ukr army units defected and joined the people in the donbas to secede and fight off increasing efforts by Ukraine to send in extreme-right berserkers and later on nato trained regular ukr army brigades.
If Putin wanted them so badly, why did he not recognize them in 2014? Instead he lost 8 years with the useless UN-mandate supported Minsk accords that were not executed on by France, Germany, Ukraine, and the LDNR (the parties to the treaty). He only moved when Ukr was on the cusp of a new genocidal operation. In the Ukraine in was perfectly normal to discuss on TV about eliminating the colorado’s (potato bugs=russians in Ukraine) — even the President talked of how their children would grow up in basements without the light of day.
Have you not read about the death lists for opposition members and journalists? Or the kidnappings and torture carried out by the secret police (SBU) against people who did not welcome the new right-wing ethno-state regime in 2014?
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Crimea seceded because it had a lot of Russians I grant than. Chechnya and others will do the same for the same reason. Have you wondered why Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan are not following Russia in their endeavor?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Most (all) wars are about treasure–that is taking territory. People try to justify such taking based on ethnology/ethnography and prior history, however, at the end of the day what really matters is subjugating the people and controlling the territory until everyone ‘forgets’ or accepts the new order.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
This is the problem with America’s wars. They take no plunder. Good, bad or indifferent, you cannot maintain an Empire without pillaging and plunder. It’s not sustainable without sufficient returns. Being “liked” because of large amounts of foreign aid doesn’t cut it.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
“given the US withdrawal from Afghanistan that Trump promised but left up to Biden to do.”
Um, Trump thought he was going to win, and there’s nothing wrong with him leaving the Afgan pull out to a second term. The election was stolen from him, so let’s stop sounding like a Biden apologist for what will be the MANY ‘I have to own this’ MISTAKES of Biden’s presidency.
Trump, who I don’t particularly care for, lost the election because:
  • States were allowed to modify election laws outside of their legislative process which WAS PATENTLY ILLEGAL and will have long-term consequences for our elections.
  • Zuck paid off people with $400M.
  • The entire big tech industry used Section 230 to make Trump look bad, which he certainly was capable of doing on his own, in terms of COVID. For two years, they’ve shut down alternative views, and we now know the shots don’t keep you from getting COVID which Joe Biden, Fauci, et al said they do. The coverup of the negatives (heart issues) has been massive, just stunningly massive.
  • The FBI looked past known, good evidence with regards to Hunter Biden. 40% of independence said they wouldn’t have voted for Biden had they known about the incremenating laptop.
  • Enormous swaths of corporate America colluded with dems & RINOs to push him out of office.
  • Hell, AZ has now established for a fact that almost 20,000 illegal votes were counted that came in after the official end date for them to be delivered.
Again, none of what I’m saying is really intended to support Trump, but it’s just stunning how willing America is to let all these criminal activities go unaccounted for. It’s just like the Wuhan lab vs zoonotic controversy. There’s overwhelming evidence it was leaked from the lab. And America and its allies don’t have the spine to punish China. It’s absolutely zonkers.
And finally, Mish, do you realize Biden has expanded the DACA assignment of social security numbers to new illegal immigrants. And they’re canceling tens of thousands of backlogged cases which is in effect amnesty?
My god. Just write your article and make your point without dragging Trump into the plotline.
SO, you think Ukraine should cede territory to Russia? What do they do when that’s not enough?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Let’s get this straight.
The election was not stolen from Trump.
The election was bought by the Democrats.
Just like the other elections.
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Please don’t make a fool of yourself and compare Putin to Hitler.
I can tell you right now how this will end. Ukraine and Russia will make a deal and Ukraine will lose territory.
What I cannot tell you is when this happens.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Perhaps somewhat like that. But I don’t think Russia is interested in territory beyond the Dnieper river. Along the south, of course, they will block all access to the Black Sea, and also establish a land bridge to Transnistria.

But more importantly, the surprise will be on the western side, as Poland and Romania and perhaps Belarus too, gobble up parts of what is now Ukraine. What remains may be about a third of the area of pre-war Ukraine.

Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
Hitler no. Putin sees himself as a combination or Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great and Stalin all rolled up together. All three he admires and wants to emulate and has said so.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
You forgot Rasputin.
klausmkl
klausmkl
1 year ago
World War 3 is just starting. The Chinese and the Indians hate each other. China will take Taiwan very soon. A Global conflict is inevitable. Once again the landscapes of the world will be changed forever.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  klausmkl
As long as the USA is not involved, there will not be a world war.
No other nation has plans to become the boss of the world.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
But China may come in a very close second.
LM2022
LM2022
1 year ago
The Ukrainians want to fight for their country. Who are we to tell them not to? I don’t like the war either, and the amount of arms we’ve been pumping into the region makes me queasy – but Putin is a worldwide menace and if this war is the end of him, then maybe something good can come from this.
jhrodd
jhrodd
1 year ago
Reply to  LM2022
The Ukrainians in the Donbas are the only ones fighting for their Country. The rest are fighting for the US/NATO.
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Reply to  LM2022
“The Ukrainians want to fight for their country. Who are we to tell them not to?”
No one
But the US should not have fomented this mess in 2014. We helped topple a government that was Russia neutral and this is the result.
We have given Ukraine at least $40 billion.
Q: What has the EU done?
A: It gave Ukraine a loan for something like $9 billion.
Why is this more of a concern for the US than the EU?
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
Which Ukrainians?
A large part of the Ukrainian population were Russians living on territory that had been Russian for hundreds of years.
Suddenly, they found themselves outside of Russia with the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Ukraine never existed except as an administrative district of the Soviet Union, where they did not believe in nationality!
Hence the civil war, which claimed more dead than the civilian death toll up until now.
The people of DonBassa (LDNR) are also fighting for their country, and, in fact, their militia’s are taking the brunt of the battle on the front lines and the majority of the casualties.
You obviously have not seen the videos that are censored in the West, like the woman in a feature video by AP (Associated Press) after being rescued from the Azovstaal factory in Mariupol (AP later chopped off the second half of the interview to support the narrative), in which she says she will go to Russia at the first opportunity and never wants anything to do with Ukraine again. Or the women in SeveroDonetsk weeping as they welcome the Russians and begging them not to leave them to the Punishers (Ukr battallions) ever again. Or the people stuck for a month in a basement 2 months in Mariupol who said they heard soldiers, but then they heard them shout Allahu Akbar, so they came out, knowing they were saved because it was the Russians.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
My comment was in reply to LM2022, not Mish’s comment.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Russians? Allahu Akbar?
Let’s face it, the whole area has been going downhill since the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth fell apart.
hmk
hmk
1 year ago
Reply to  LM2022
Who has caused more deaths and destruction worldwide than the US? It’s okay when we inflict and instigate harm. The US instigated this entire conflict. We will fight this proxy war until every last Ukraian male has been killed and the country is in ruins. Meanwhile that corrupt war criminal Zelensky is getting rich beyond comprehension. Everything we touch turns to sh. If we hadn’t intervened in Afghanistan when the Russians were trying to quash the attempts of radical Islam from overthrowing The government we probably wouldn’t have had 911.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  hmk
Who more than the U.S.? Germany, Russia, Japan, China, and Cambodia for starters.
Dutoit
Dutoit
1 year ago
Reply to  LM2022
The problem is that in Donbass, most people don’t feel “Ukrainians”, as long as this implied, after 2014, that they had to forget their Russian roots, in particular the Russian language. A big part of the soldiers on the Russian side are militia from the two republics of Donetsk and Lugansk, mainly in infantry. It is also a fight between Ukrainians anf former Ukrainians. Maybe we will have also news from the half-million Ukrainians that fled to Russia after the Maidan coup (UN estimation), and also from the several millions Ukrainians that emigrated to Russia since 1990 (mostly for economical reasons), most of then having also Russian nationality.
Jmurr
Jmurr
1 year ago
Reply to  LM2022
They are doing it with our tax dollars.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
Reply to  LM2022
All those Putin wars around the world, not to mention military and intelligence infrastructure.
Now I can see where the problem lies: lack of mirrors.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Yup. I’m sure it has something to do with Putin’s 800 international military bases.
killben
killben
1 year ago
In other words Bears have avoided being slaughtered further in the nick of time.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
1 year ago

I was afraid that common sense might settle in and that Ukraine would negotiate a deal with Russia.

Who could possibly want that?

This isn’t about the Ukraine. Russia has lost around 80,000 troops while Ukraine has lost about half that in civilian and military casualties. Any negotiation should only start with UN-run elections in Russia and Putin being put in jail. Until then, carry on.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Peace is not possible if you believe propaganda put out by a corrupt country like Ukraine. A singular lack of truth and manipulated bias are a big part of the problem.
The far bigger problem is China. look at a map–the last thing we need is an alliance between China and Russia. Together they control Asia. Add in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
80,000 Russian troops? Where are you pulling that number from? Why are they winning? What are the casualties among the militia’s fighting on the zero line, fighting on their own turf (Donbas), where the people voted overwhelmingly to secede in 2014 (Mariupol, 98%; before the Azov Nazi’s moved in and took over after killing the police), which lead to the Ukr army units defected to defend their homeland.
The idea that the regular Russian troops are losing more men than the increasing number of decimated Ukrainian brigades … this is what we call ‘propaganda’.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Define winning.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Jojo
Destroying the enemy military, and moving on to political goals.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Looks like Russia is far from that definition by any measures.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Both sides are in demographic freefall, and are short of young men. But Russia’s population is roughly 5x Ukraine’s, and Russia has a long history of dogged persistence. For the U.S., the war is a weapons testing laboratory.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
1 year ago
Just because your a vegetarian doesn’t mean you won’t get eaten. And just because you are a pacifist doesn’t mean you won’t get attacked. We can fight them over there or fight them in our streets. Maybe peace will break out and we can all live in fantasy land.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
Fighting and maintaining overseas bases is a much more expensive option.
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
“We can fight them over there or fight them in our streets.”
Just like Vietnam
jhrodd
jhrodd
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
Yep. That “Yellow Peril” is apparently still a threat.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
The MIC was/is happy.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
I think that started with George Patton in 1945.
hmk
hmk
1 year ago
Spoken like a true neocon
whirlaway
whirlaway
1 year ago
“We can fight them over there or fight them in our streets.”

That is what the bloodthirsty Adam Schiff said, well before Feb 2022. This war didn’t start 5 months ago. It started with the coup in Ukraine in 2014, aided by US/NATO. Remember “Yats is our guy”?!

Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago

We need the military to keep unemployment down… might as well kill some people with it so we don’t feel stupid and wasteful.

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