There was already huge support in Israel for a hostage deal. In the wake of prisoner executions by Hamas, outrage and protests have grown. Who is to blame?
Protest Background
WSJ: Hamas Executes Six Hostages, Including an American
Israel said Sunday it recovered the bodies of six hostages. They were executed in a Gaza tunnel only a day or two before Israel reached them, shot multiple times at close range.
In executing hostages, Hamas knows it is increasing pressure on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Many Israelis demand he make more concessions toward a deal because Hamas has rejected the past several.
Netanyahu Defends His Plans for Gaza
Amid protests and a crippling strike, Netanyahu Defends His Plans for Gaza. That’s a free link to a live New York Times article.
After thousands of Israeli workers walked off the job on Monday, angry over the deaths of hostages in Gaza, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said at a news conference that the war would only end when Israel had eliminated Hamas.
In his first news conference since the recovery of six slain hostages over the weekend — and after a day of labor strikes and protests across the country — Mr. Netanyahu defended his contentious plans for a continued Israeli presence on a strip of land in Gaza that he said was essential to Israel’s security.
Large crowds of protesters have broken through police lines near the prime minister’s private residence in Jerusalem. They’re now advancing toward his family apartment carrying coffins that symbolize the six slain hostages recently found in Gaza. There are still several more police lines between the protesters and the prime minister’s home.
Israeli control of the border area between Gaza and Egypt — known as the Philadelphi Corridor — will “determine our entire future,” Netanyahu said. He is effectively doubling down on one of his most contentious conditions for a postwar truce, which Hamas has already dismissed as a non-starter.
President Biden issued a one-word rebuke on Monday of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s commitment to reaching a cease-fire and hostage release deal, in the latest iteration of the White House’s monthslong effort to cajole and censure the Israeli leader.
As he exited Marine One on the White House lawn, Mr. Biden was asked a series of questions by waiting reporters about whether Mr. Netanyahu was doing enough to achieve a deal to get the hostages back. The president responded simply: “No.”
Protest Images
As tens of thousands protest in Tel Aviv to demand Netanyahu allow a prisoner exchange/ceasefire, Israeli forces are responding with stun grenades.
Easy to Place Blame
Netanyahu says any deal must include Israel’s right to destroy Hamas after a temporary ceasefire. Hamas, of course cannot accept such a deal.
But Hamas has demands that Israel cannot accept. And Hamas just killed executed six people to get what it wants.
So, if you want to blame Hamas, you have ammunition. If you want to blame Netanyahu, that’s easy to do as well.
The fighting will continue as long as both sides vow to destroy the other at the end of a temporary ceasefire.
Very Shaky Coalition
Politically speaking, Netanyahu is in a very shaky 3-way coalition.
The Wall Street Journal reports “Netanyahu’s coalition of right-wing, ultranationalist and religious political parties has mostly supported his hard-line stance in negotiations with Hamas. The prime minister’s ultranationalist partners have also threatened to topple the government if a hostage deal comes at the price of ending the war. Polls show the governing coalition wouldn’t be re-elected if a new vote happened now.”
Netanyahu is a corrupt politician who arguably belongs in prison. Others think Netanyahu is a hero. Take your pick or something in between.
Regardless, his government would collapse and he would be ousted if he worked out a deal.
Israeli Settlements
Britannica discusses the Israeli Settlement issue.
In 2019 the number of settlers reached nearly 630,000 (413,000 if East Jerusalem is excluded). Most of these newer settlers were motivated less by reasons of ideology or recovering lost property, however, than by cheaper housing and financial incentives offered by the Israeli government.
Stolen land is the best way to view most of these settlements.
Gaza Invasion
Regardless of how one views these things, since the October 7, Israeli invasion of Gaza, over 35,000 have been killed.
By mid-December, Israel had dropped 29,000 munitions on Gaza, destroying or damaging 70 percent of homes, destroying hundreds of cultural landmarks, and damaging dozens of cemeteries. Experts say that the scale and pace of destruction in Gaza is among the most severe in recent history. A severe humanitarian crisis has developed, with healthcare in a state of collapse, shortages of food, clean water, medicine and fuel due to the blockade, electricity and communications blackouts, and the UN warning of potential famine. It was widely reported that there is “no safe place in Gaza”, as Israel struck areas it had previously told Palestinians to evacuate to.Nearly all 2.3 million Gazans have been internally displaced and 250,000 to 500,000 Israelis were internally displaced, while Israel has detained thousands of Palestinians and said it lost 327 additional soldiers in its invasion as of 20 July 2024.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel will have overall security responsibility over the Gaza Strip for an indefinite period following the war.European Commission president Von der Leyen said there should be no long-term Israeli security presence in Gaza, and suggested a UN mandated peace force as a possibility; while U.S. President Joe Biden said, “When this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next, and in our view it has to be a two-state solution.” On 11 November, Netanyahu widened the split with the U.S. over postwar governance, saying that he was against the Palestinian Authority having a role there. On 12 November 2023, Israeli security cabinet member Avi Dichter described Israeli strategy in northern Gaza as “Nakba 2023”.
During the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip, numerous viral videos showed Israeli soldiers committing war crimes. A series of videos in mid-December 2023 showed IDF troops burning food, vandalizing a shop, and ransacking private homes. The Euro-Med Monitor recorded instances where soldiers deliberately stole civilians’ assets, including laptops, gold, and large quantities of cash.[382] Euro-Med Monitor also reported on soldiers recorded harassing corpses, dragging them, urinating on them, and amputating them. In a social media post, the Council on American–Islamic Relations condemned a video of an Israeli soldier stating, “Maybe I killed a girl, she was 12, but I’m looking for a baby.” On 2 January 2024, Palestinian diplomat Laith Arafeh condemned reports that Israeli soldiers kidnapped a baby from Gaza. On 24 February, a video went viral of an IDF soldier setting a residential neighborhood on fire while saying, “A little BBQ is great fun”.
North and South Gaza
An Israeli-occupied road dividing Gaza could last years, or even decades. The buffer zone surrounding Gaza appears to be permanent.
Does anyone really think Israel will leave? Why?
Why should any Palestinian believe Israeli occupation is temporary?
Sick of the Whole Damn Thing
Some of us a sick of the whole damn thing regardless of who is retaliating whom and why.
I do not justify or condone outrageous behavior by Hamas or by Israel.
I do suggest that US support for Israel, no matter what its leaders do is a huge part of the problem.
Fundamental Issue and Primary Objectives
The fundamental issue that negotiators try to bury is Israel and Hamas have vowed to destroy each other. Any truce is guaranteed to be temporary when total destruction of the other is the stated objective of both.
The US has been an enabler of Israel settlements which led to increased violence. Specifically, the US should stop looking away when Israel expands settlements in Palestinian territory.
This position does not excuse what Hamas did. But as with Ukraine, the US needs to step back and assess the ways our foreign policy have a marked tendency of making matters worse.
The Main Problem in a Mideast Deal is Getting Both Sides to Accept Lies
Meanwhile, The Main Problem in a Mideast Deal is Getting Both Sides to Accept Lies
Officials openly state the main challenge is to get Hamas to believe in a permanent cease fire without Israel offering that. That’s quite the admission, and challenge.
I wrote that on February 24, 2024.
Nothing has changed. But a deal based on lies cannot work.
The goal of the US should not be to get Israel and Hamas to accept each other’s lies, even temporarily.
Rather, the only policy that makes any sense is getting Israel and Hamas to change their objectives.
Biden has failed. In retrospect, has he even tried?
It wouldn’t matter. Netanyahu is a huge impediment to progress unless the mission is perpetual war.
Read what Truman said of “Zionism” and how the Zionists pressured him to support the creation of the State of Israel.
No Hitler, No Israel
If Hitler never existed, then all of this would never be. It would still be British territory as the Holocaust would never have been leveraged by the Zionists.
And likely there would just be wars between the Arabs and Persians (Iranians).
Now its a demographics war as Israel has likely slowed down the birth rate in Gaza and is trying to do the same in Muslim-occupied West Bank.
If you want to blame an historical event for the establishment of Israel, try WWI . . . or the Ottomans being on the losing side. That was the source of the Mandate promising a Jewish national home. As for Hitler, it’s interesting that from the 1930s until the end of the Mandate, Britain repeatedly increased restrictions on Jewish immigration, forcibly turning back refugee ships during the Holocaust. The material fact today is that Israel exists, and its population prefers not to be murdered. If you get bored babbling on this subject, you can take up the irredentist cause of Apache Indians and provide equal value.
The so-called Palestinians had no national identity before the Mandate years. They were Arabs who identified with their tribal masters. Skipping forward, today they are a religious/ethnic minority that hates the national state they live in. Bad for them, bad for the host state. Not completely unlike the problems in many other jurisdictions. Azerbaijan recently ejected its Armenians with less bloodshed than you might expect. But neither Jordan nor Egypt wants this crowd, despite ethnic affinities, and for good reason.
Should U.S. forces begin a barbaric campaign, – slaughtering thousands of innocent Apache Indians, there will be uproar. For good reason.
The problem today is the dictator Netanyahu’s criminal holocaust being conducted in Gaza, and those that support it.
Thankfully, Israel likely will collapse permanently as a result of this hardened savagery. Should the barely established, infantile pariah state somehow survive, the bill to rebuild Gaza, and now perhaps the West Bank also, will keep Israel’s population impoverished for decades.
Thank you for sharing your ignorance, genocide John.
Are all of you Israel-haters incoherent by choice? “Dictator” “criminal holocaust” “genocide”–the accuracy of words means nothing to you. But I understand: You hate Israel. May you live under the kindness of any of its neighbors.
Better the kindness of their neighbors than the barbarism Israel practices against it’s neighbors.
Sorry you haven’t learned the meaning of words is universal.
Which neighbor killed 150,000 Israeli’s this year, genocide John? Which neighbor slaughtered tens of thousands of Israeli children this year? How many Israeli’s were imprisoned without charge and raped by their captors this year?
Rational, moral people recognize Israel’s innumerable crimes, if they also hate Israel they have good reason.
“Zionist pioneers” came to Palestine after Theodor Herzl and the Kishiniev pogrom, establishing a Russian bridgehead in the heart of the British Empire. In WWI the Polish Jews supported Germany.
Truman and his Jewish friend store failed during the 1919/21 recession. The polls indicated that Dewey will Defeat Truman. His Jewish friend told him that if the US vote for a Jewish state in the UN he will get the Jewish vote. He didn’t. Truman turned his back on the newly born state. After Eisenhower kicked the French out of the Suez canal ==> France and Israel became best friends. The French exported Citroen Deux Chevaux, Peugeots, Fouga Magisters and Mirage3. The relationship was terminated in 1967 on day one of The Six Days War.
ZERO HEDGE INSIGHT………..SEEMS CORRECT
“Most all of our enlistees aren’t doing it for any sense of patriotic duty. Some are doing it for the GI bill, some are doing it because it is the only job that won’t fire them, being misfits in the private sector, others are doing it for the taxpayer funded tranny surgery. Then their is “the foreign legion” who are doing it to get papers for their parents. Few nowadays are doing it for love of country, and who could blame them.
One of my smartest friends and I asked that same question–why doesn’t every country hate us more? His take seemed spot on to me: Once we lose even more power, we”ll see how much hate is really out there.
Why is any actual “News Network” reporting on anything Biden has to say? Perhaps to deflect from, the new fraud in charge? Maybe because the MSM is so delusional, that they actually think America cares WTF he chooses to mutter moving forward?
“And I would like to remind my readers that Israel has exponentially more hostages than Hamas has, and murders them routinely, and rapes and tortures them constantly.”
https://x.com/caitoz/status/1830443769172496636
Either current or future hostages are going to die because Hamas is not going to stop. By eliminating Hamas at the cost of current hostages the future hostages are saved and the problem eliminated.
100% agree with all of this. I get the impression Harris’s instinct is to move in this direction but far too meekly. As for Trump…you must be terrified of him if you are a normal peaceful Palestinian.
Go to the SkyNews interview of Doctor Basem Naim, MD by Sky’s Mark Austin.
Naim stated that the concert goers and civilians were “invaders”.
At minute 2 into the 14 minute interview, Naim states he does not consider the “settlers” (i.e., civilians living in the kibbutz near Gaza) as being “civilians”, so that means they are treated like military targets by Hamas.
Read more and listen more from the serpent tongue mouths of Hamas and they say they do not recognize the state of Israel.
Hamas supporters do not want Israel to exist as well as view anyone that is not Palestinian as an invader.
So the Israel flag being flown at this weekends protest in Israel is viewed as the enemy of a group that these protesters are hoping to appease and make peace with.
WAKE UP SHEEP.
… worried about the hypothetical elimination of Israel, as Israel eliminates Palestinians in real time and prevents them ever getting a state. Curious.
It is a demographics war, as many on this discussion page do not want to admit it. Each is trying to grind down and wait out their adversary and enemy along that narrow strip land of Palestine or land of Israel (about 9000 square miles)
But you all cannot deny that even a “Medical Doctor” by name of Basem Naim wants to eliminate Jewish population in Israel since he views them as “invaders”.
So, you found one Palestinian promoting the eradication of Jews in Israel and then you rationalize the killing of thousands of innocent Palestinians to be justified.
White Americans also see Israeli Jews in Gaza and the West Bank as, obviously, “invaders.”
Are you implying that hundreds of thousands of white Americans should be killed also?
you cannot be that dense to not realize millions of Palestinians that want to see Israel no longer exist because they view it as illegitimate and an “invader” who stole Palestinian land
you cannot be that naive and smug
I agree with you. But you cannot deny that nearly all Israelis are perfectly comfortable with keeping land initially and subsequently denied to the majority Palestinian/Muslim population, nor how comfortable Israelis are with perpetual occupation even in the WB.
Now going after its own citizens. Probably same thing will happen in US. Enough of this crap already. Sadly, I don’t even think it’s barely started.
There is no moral equivalence when one side rapes and stomps on baby’s heads without penalty from their own leaders. Israel prosecutes its war criminals. Netanyahu is right to insist on the destruction of Hamas. Anything less would be like American letting Hitler and the Nazis go, only to create more mayhem down the road.
No moral equivalence between one side killing 1200 people and the other side killing 40,000 or more since Oct 7. No moral equivalence between one side that took the others’ land (and continues to do so daily) and the other side defending itself. We agree!
This is such ridiculous garbage that I’ll have to view your generally sensible economic stuff with caution. (I always have, of course, anyway.) There is, first and foremost, no such thing as “Israeli occupation.” Not of Gaza, not of Judea and Samaria, not of the Golan. Not of one square foot between “the river and the sea.” States that lose territory as a result of wars of aggression are s.o.l. under international law. Nor can the loser deed a nonexistent claim to a third party, as Jordan has tried to do. Israel made a grave mistake in withdrawing from Gaza in 2005. It was not compelled to do so. The Sharon government succumbed to the delusion, widely held among wishful thinkers in Israel, that a prototype of a Palestinian state would bring harmony. Instead it enabled the Arab population to select a bloodthirsty fanatical leadership founded on hatred of Jews, internationally, which made it a suitable proxy for deranged Iranian mullahs. To imagine cutting a deal with Hamas is to ignore this most important reality: that regardless of the cost to its own population, it aims to destroy Israel with the finality it delivered to the latest dead hostages. If you believe that this reality can be nullified by negotiation, you may as well believe any other lie that comes your way . . .that the Fed will rescue America, say.
Read what Truman said of “Zionism” and how the Zionists pressured him to support the creation of the State of Israel.
No Hitler, No Israel
If Hitler never existed, then all of this would never be. It would still be British territory as the Holocaust would never have been leveraged by the Zionists.
And likely there would just be wars between the Arabs and Persians (Iranians).
Now its a demographics war as Israel has likely slowed down the birth rate in Gaza and is trying to do the same in Muslim-occupied West Bank.
If you want to blame an historical event for the establishment of Israel, try WWI . . . or the Ottomans being on the losing side. That was the source of the Mandate promising a Jewish national home. As for Hitler, it’s interesting that from the 1930s until the end of the Mandate, Britain repeatedly increased restrictions on Jewish immigration, forcibly turning back refugee ships during the Holocaust. The material fact today is that Israel exists, and its population prefers not to be murdered. If you get bored babbling on this subject, you can take up the irredentist cause of Apache Indians and provide equal value.
Yes, I stated in my “babbling” consider around 500 years from now the “Native Americans” on Indian Reservations. How will they look compared to now ?
Yes, you are “babbling” AGAIN about what most of us know already about Jewish immigrants being turned away from British Palestine during the 1930’s.
But you have basically a 9000 square mile area where you have 2 very different cultures and religions in MODERN TIMES (not when Andrew Jackson was President).
And one culture and religion led by Hamas wants to wipe out the other since they view them as “invaders”.
Roll Tide.
“ States that lose territory as a result of wars of aggression are s.o.l. under international law. ” This is outright false.
Regardless, the war of aggression began when 1. the Yishuv demanded a part of a land overwhelmingly populated by Muslim Palestinians and 2. when Jewish militias began attacking and forcibly expelling the Palestinians from majority Palestinian cities including Jaffa, Haifa, Lod, Safad, Tiberius, etc… BEFORE the state of Israel declared independence.
As for “hatred of the Jews”, you will find the source of that hatred right there in 1 & 2, above.
Wear your swastika proudly.
Shoot yourself in your bunker proudly.
The biggest swastika in the Country likely is displayed in your yard.
The absence of a substantive response from you is noted.
Nazi (and medieval European) antisemitism is abhorrent and without basis. (Hating Jews for who they are.) Palestinian hatred of Israelis/the Jewish state is a perfectly predictable and understandable reaction to harms inflicted upon Palestinians. (Hating Jews for what they did, in the name of a Jewish state.)
Outrage Over Netanyahu’s Policy
what? This is new news? **rolls eyes**
NEVER AGAIN MEANT ALL HUMANS NOT JUST NAZIS ATTEMPTED GENOCIDE. israel is now the new nazis. apartheid, genocide, famine, polio. Amerika has to cut the cord to these idiot puppets we control.
Well it may be 100% true, but then in the definition of antisemitism here:
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
… contains the text:
“Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.”
I mean it’s perfectly fine to compare policy of Russia or Italy or Brazil or any other nation with the Nazis, but we also have to realize that one nation is more equal than all others.
Mish: Clearly some of your readers go you one more. Your screed neglected “apartheid, genocide, famine, polio.” You can still do a fix.
Is it a measure of the low intelligence of the antisemites (posing as anti-Zionists) reading this site that my mockery of Mish just above got four thumbs up? Can there be four readers who recognized the paragraph as mockery?
The protestors in the streets of Israel are the typical bleeding heart liberals that every country has. They can be safely ignored as the large majority of Israelis are behind and support Netanyahu.
Do only protesters that agree with Jojo count? If the estimates are right, there are 500K-700K protestors in a country of 9-10mn. Maybe their opinions matter more than Mish posters’ opinions do.
They matter as much as the campus protestor’s here in the USA mattered, which is not really much at all.
A general strike was called by the leftists and was mostly ignored throughout Israel on Monday. Then the labor court invalidated the floundering strike anyway. The vast majority of the population support Netanyahu as does his war cabinet.
The article below uses a clickbait headline, implying significant disagreement among the War cabinet members, yet at the end of the article all members, except for IDF head Gallant, agreed to stand behind Netanyahu. That is a strong vote of confidence!
really sad to see netanyahu acting like a nazi. i just imagine the souls of the dead from hitler rolling in their graves………..the weird thing is he spent his formative years in suburban phillie.
what is ironic is the “left wing” protesters wave the Israeli flag, which is despised by Hamas supporters and the very group the chump and smug protesters seem to trust enough to want to make a peace deal
even Dr Naim, MD of Hamas said the state of Israel is a bunch of “invaders” in the SkyNews interview
you all think you can de-Hamas the Palestinian people like you de-Nazi the German people ?
you are fool if they all think you can, as you are dealing with people who think they are fighting a religious and race war going on since 1200 years ago
There was no race war before Balfour. You are incorrect, sir.
I see your point as it was not until the “white European Jews” started to settle in Israel under the Zionist movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Background
So before Zionisms birth, it was mostly “Sephardic Jews” (i.e., non-white European Jews) who lived in Palestine.
Not exactly. My point was that Jews lived all across the middle east in Muslim countries for 1000 years with but very rare incidents. Maimonides fled Spain to Egypt, where he became a physician to Salahadin who reconquered Jerusalem from Europeans. This “war” has not been going on for 1200 years. Only since Balfour.
Before Zionism’s birth, there were pockets of Ashkenzim, Sepharim and Mizrahim in Palestine. Their numbers were quite small… about 3% of the population. The other 96% became quite angry at being displaced, as anyone would be.
Israel needs to flood the tunnels with seawater and flush the terrorists above ground or let them drown. This is what they should have done at the very beginning of this engagement. Doing so would have saved tens of thousands of Palestinian lives and hundreds of IDF/journalist lives.
Israel/IDF should not worry about the fates of the hostages. The greater good is to neutralize the Hamas terrorists and take one of their primary weapons away from the, which is what the tunnels are.
100 hostages, of which 30-40 are likely dead anyway, cannot be allowed to dictate war strategy for Israel.
What you really mean is that Israel needs to kill or deport 7 mn indigenous Palestinians so it can take all their land. Amirite?
Its an existential matter. Been going on since the Bible.
Religion took over the battle when Ashkenazim Jewish people returned to Israel claiming their ancestors lived there 1500 years before.
But they look a lot more white then what Jesus Christ looked like with “bronze skin”.
That is similar to 700 years from now, how much will Native Americans in Oklahoma and New Mexico have association with their tribes, nations and status ?
Demographics is everything.
Ever see a “European or white Muslim” ? Hell yes, go to the Balkans or even southern Russia.
Oy Vey.
Nope. 1. No conflict before Balfour, and 2. Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel, but a minor threat. 3. Ashkenazi were created when Middle Eastern men married European women beginning in Rome BC, then German women. I have no idea what the rest of your post is supposed to convey.
You have no clue about “Demographics is everything.” ?
Yes, Demographics means race like skin color as in bronze versus white color of skin.
Maybe you should post somewhere else if you cannot understand this as it related to the current state of Israel and the Palestinian lands.
You are way off on your definition of Ashkenazi Jews. They emigrated to Europe to escape persecution from the Greeks and/or Romans, etc.
They did not mingle or procreate with Middle Eastern men while in Hungary, Poland and central Europe.
Sephardi Jews look more “Middle Eastern” than the “white European” Ashkenazi Jews.
Does a Bibi Netanyahu look “Middle Eastern” to you ?
Roll Tide.
Genetic studies show that Ashkenazi originated from Middle Eastern men and European women before the destruction of the second temple. They lived in Rome itself, voluntarily, and accounted for some 10% of the population in the BC era. Bibi is of Polish, and presumably, some Middle Eastern descent. I never claimed otherwise.
I have no great love for Israel, but flooding the tunnels seemed like an obvious thing to do right after Oct 7.
It was discussed over and over, apparently, in their War cabinet.
And they capitulated to the whining of the UN and others that doing so would pollute what little water aquifer Gaza has, making resettlement/rebuilding impossible when the war, then anticipated to be relatively short, was over.
There was also the fear that doing this might cause Hamas to let the hostages drown, then totaling around 240 people, and that they would then lose the support of a major slice of the population of Israel at a critical point.
Not to mention that flooding tunnels does not end the civil war. It changes the nature of it, perhaps more in line with Israeli preferences. However, I note that that all the condemnation of Israel focuses on what they doing to the surface of Gaza not the tunnels.
If Israel really means it when they say they are going to destroy Hamas, they are saying outright that they intend to destroy the entire population of Gaza, since the majority of residents there actively support Hamas. Thirty thousand is just he beginning. Three hundred thousand is just the first step. Maybe a million civilian casualties will be sufficient to meet Israel’s stated goals.
Whether they actually intend to actually achieve that is irrelevant. What matters is that they keep repeating that is their goal. Israel faces the certainty that sooner or later, someone that matters will say *no* and mean it. I exclude Biden of course for obvious reasons.
Yeah, it just bought Hamas more time to escape, etc.
What is ironic is the “left wing” protesters in Tel Aviv waving the Israel flag want to try to negotiate with Hamas who loath and hate that flag, and consider the population representing that flag as “invaders”.
Absolutely. Prof. John Mearsheimer has lately been calling Secretary of State Blinken “Netanyahu’s lawyer”. That’s how aggressively (if unsuccessfully) the U.S. has been prosecuting Israel’s cause.
It’s clear (at least to Mearsheimer) that despite all of the theatre, Biden is supporting not just Israel but Netanyahu. Perhaps the fear is that if Netanyahu falls, even more extremist Right-wing leaders will take over. That seems plausible.
It is not hard to imagine that Israel, feeling its very existence threatened, might use its nuclear weapons offensively. Israel could reach that level of fear and desperation.
As with Ukraine, the policy of doubling down on threats and escalation is not working yet continues. There does not seem to be a reverse gear.
On this Labor Day we are going about our day as if none of this will affect us. That’s reportedly how it felt throughout Europe on July 31, 1914. Does Biden and his people understand how quickly things can unravel?
“Perhaps the fear is that if Netanyahu falls, even more extremist Right-wing leaders will take over. That seems plausible. ”
Or perhaps the US supports Netanyahu’s approach and objective, but the Biden adminstration has to pretend like it’s seeking ceasefire to appease voters in an election year.
Bibi survived Obama/ Biden’s regime change team, which flew to Tel Aviv, by making a coalition with the religious parties and by appealing to the Sephardic Jews, the forgotten people, which are the majority. He doesn’t care about the theater of the arrogant progressive elite. Galant is a Trojan horse. When Bibi got a pacemaker he blew up the Iranian embassy in Damascus. He supports 70/80 bodies and 20/30 hostages hostages over Israel’s national interests. Perhaps he fears Al Sisi. Hamas letter target Galant as Israel’s weak link. In every war there are dead soldiers, wounded, prisoners of war and the unknown. Egypt had plenty. They erected the unknown soldiers statue in the Feradan on the Suez canal.The IDF is doing it’s best to free hostages and excavate dead bodies, but the hostages families never thank them and Bibi. They occupy a global center stage doing their theater, like divorced women. Bibi’s useless idiots.The bottom line : Hamas was defeated. Jasa returned to the stone age above and underground. Israel lost only 360 soldiers since entering Jasa in the last 11 months. No new Israeli prisoners of wars north and south. Hezbollah stalled.
“The IDF is doing it’s best to free hostages and excavate dead bodies, but the hostages families never thank them and Bibi. ”
One question: How many hostages were released by Hamas as part of the first ceasefire vs. how many hostages were released by the IDF?
Bonus question: How many hostages have been killed directly by the IDF?
No one answered! The answers are: 100+, 8 and 8. More hostages will be released through ceasefire. And maybe we don’t have to wake up to another 100 daily Palestinian deaths. Their lives matter too. I know. Shocking.
Well, it is time for the US to invade Yeman.
Another 20 year occupation, if the world lasts that long, coming right up.
Lindsay Grahm will see to it.
The Israel lobby in the US is too strong for the IS to not back Israel.
It is as if two fundamentally different cultures cannot live together in a napkin size territory. For peaceful co-existence, you need large space with well defined borders.
Else, natural law prevails.
Neither side is right, both sides are wrong, but right in their own way.
In paleolithic culture, the rules were simple: step outside your tribe territory, and you get killed.
This way, you can break down a conflict beside an emotional, spur of the moment opinion.
Its one of the largest conundrums in this world and perhaps universe.
You have European-looking Jewish people and you have the Palestinian people.
Add in the Nazi’s regime and Hitler, and you got what you got now.
But Zionism was created well before Hitler was wounded in World War 1, and is documented as complaining in the hospital that he wanted to return to the front line.
And Zionism existed well before Hitler having a Jewish family doctor and Jewish friends, and well before he cynically adopted antisemitism within the beer halls of the working class, in order to be more accepted for his nationalism views.
Roll Tide.
Religious zealots killing religious zealots. This has been going on for thousands of years. Let them figure it out.
Meanwhile we are one mistake, miscalculation or provocation away from nuclear annihilation of the world we know. And hardly anyone talks about it or will report and write articles regarding the suicidal reasoning and policies being executed on a daily basis.
Mr. Mish, Can you please start addressing this topic more and raising awareness? Here is a link to a expert in international relations and nuclear weapons. fyi
https://www.thepostil.com/one-mistake-away-from-nuclear-war/
Bibi supports Trump. He didn’t cave in to Biden’s : “Take it or leave it”.
Why do people have such short memories? This is a Western intelligence operation much like they’ve done, just about everywhere. The goal is to Bibi out before any new US president inauguration. This would be especially true if Trump appears to be on his way to victory.
These things just don’t happen, they’re not organic. History just doesn’t happen at these levels… it’s planned.
Some situations just don’t have a solution that each side can accept and this is the prime example. It will continue on till one or the other is gone I fear.
And it’s going to take far fewer nukes to end Israel than Iran, based on land mass.
I’m in the camp that says Iran already has bombs. Their design was provided by NK who has tested 5 bombs. This will allow Iran to maintain nuclear ambiguity just like Israel. There’s zero chance they haven’t had clandestine sites working towards plutonium over the last 10 years. 18 months ago, the IAEA reported that Iran had 80% uranium and that would have been from what was known / declared.
Nukes haven’t been the number one threat for decades. The real risk is biological warfare.
Agreed. I wonder how far Israel could be pushed before they would roll out their certain biological weapons at Iran?
Hamas is gone, caput. Iran shifted their activities to Jenin and TulKarm in the west bank, but the IDF crushs them. In his speech Bibi stated that for decades Israel was waiting for a legal cause to destroy Hamas. Hauge. ICC. Instead of three whore states there will be one flourishing United Holyland State, as in the UK, Italy and Switzerland, equipped with 200 nukes.
amerika is the last ally and israel is our puppet. once we let them go they are done for it
Wow, Biden has doubled his vocabulary to include “No” along with “Don’t”.
A true leader (person or country) would offer a painful compromise with plenty of incentives to take it (US funding to Gaza … more than a pier) and punishments (no more Israel arms) if they don’t.
Biden is a lame duck president who hoped to make a Gaza ceasefire part of his legacy. Netanyahu doesn’t need to pay any attention to him.
I don’t see how Israel can survive. The Shias ‘got their number’ as to gradual grinding attrition, not fast 6 day wars. The UltraOrthodox make babies, don’t want to work, and refuse military service. The Secular/Labour Jews are realizing that it isn’t their country anymore – and they tend to maintain it and they might be emigrating en masse. Netanyahu doesn’t want peace because he might go to jail but he might be the only one to put together a coalition government. The Settlers are Jewish Terrorists. Tourists won’t visit. North Israel may become barely habitable due to rocket attacks.
Good Luck With All That.
Bibi was blaming Iran’s cauldron, but the real threat is Egypt’s Al Sisi.
Egypt supported Iran and Hamas as they moved weapons, people, construction machines for extending their tunnel system and more through the Philadelphi Corridor.
Therefore, it is time to evacuate the Gaza Palestinians into the Sinai desert of Egypt. Then Israel can clear Gaza of the Hamas terrorists w/o having to listen to the whiners complain about civilians that Hamas is hiding behind getting killed..
Return [or not] of the Palestinians from the Sinai can be discussed after Hamas is cleaned out of Gaza.
England has a similar problem and we will too. Islam wants the whole world enough to kill to get it.
I come to your country because you are tolerant.
I violently protest to overthrow your government because I am not.
Yawn…. Yes, the peaceful west never did anything to anger those nasty muslims. They hate us for our freedoms.
“The fighting will continue as long as both sides vow to destroy the other at the end of a temporary ceasefire.”
And there’s nothing ANYONE can do to stop this. Nobody.
Well, the situation would change materially, if Khamenei were somehow thrown out of power & replaced with a secular government that signed a peace treaty with Israel. But we all know that’s not going to happen. It’s more likely that Israel will get nuked at some point along with the USA.
“Specifically, the US should stop looking away when Israel expands settlements in Palestinian territory.”
Mish, does this mean you support Biden’s sanctions? If so, why? I thought you were anti-sanctions, because they don’t work.
What EXACTLY should the US do? Stop giving financial & military support? Like seriously. Jump in here and give us your thoughts on the silver bullets?
I can’t reply for Mish. But, yes, emphatically, Israel should not receive one red cent or one US bomb as long as they continue to steal the last remaining possible pieces of the Palestinian state from the Palestinians. Seems too many Israelis want the whole damn pie. They take it piecemeal via settlements, until the Palis respond, then the Israelis bomb them to bits and take more of it. It needs to stop. At least the US should stop aiding this horrid crime.
I’ve posted this before as an explanation of the benefits that Israel and the USA get from woking together. I know this is quite a jump above the paygrade of a mouse (or three) but read it slowly and try to understand what is being said. Then you won’t have to make more stupid posts.
Q. What benefits does the US receive from the aid it provides to Israel?
A. The United States receives several key benefits from the aid it provides to Israel:
1. Israel serves as a stable democratic ally and anchor of stability in the volatile Middle East region, allowing the US to advance its interests and counter threats more effectively.[1]
2. A significant portion of the aid (over 75%) is spent on purchasing US military equipment and services, boosting the American economy and supporting thousands of high-quality jobs across the country.[1]
3. Close military cooperation and intelligence sharing between the US and Israel helps enhance American security capabilities in areas like counterterrorism, missile defense, and cybersecurity. Israel has pioneered cutting-edge military technologies that benefit the US.[1][3]
4. The US maintains access to strategically located stockpiles of weapons and equipment in Israel through the War Reserves Stock Allies-Israel program for potential use by American forces in the region.[1]
5. Providing aid to Israel helps maintain its qualitative military edge over potential adversaries, deterring regional conflicts and promoting stability in line with US interests.[1][2][3]
6. The aid fosters ongoing collaboration between US and Israeli defense industries, facilitating valuable research, development, and sharing of expertise that enhances American national security capabilities.[3]
In essence, the aid strengthens the US-Israel strategic alliance, bolsters American influence and deterrence in the Middle East, supports the US defense industry, and provides tangible security benefits to the United States.[1][2][3]
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-benefits-does-O.SXzF0GTvqVTJjS8a54.g#0
False.
I can’t believe anyone believes this drivel. It is the opposite.
We’ve lost the thread because of the fear of weaponization of the antisemitism accusation and AIPAC’s sidestepping of FARA laws.
Shameful. I’m American, not Israeli. You?
And yet our politicians must believe what I posted, for else they would not continue to support Israel.
I don’t know if you are an American citizen, but if you are, you can always run for office on your personal beliefs. I doubt you will win or even get much in the way of votes though, which will show you something that you could learn form.
Three reasons: 1. being accused of antisemitism, 2. AIPAC and 3. evangelical support for Israel, primarily among Republicans. I say again. We are violating our own laws to defend what Israel is doing. The US continues to isolate itself on this issue. We are damaging ourselves, our reputation and legitimacy, our ability to exercise diplomacy.
And again, then run for office, join the Dem “Squad” and see if you can effect change with your logic. The audience here is too small to have any effect on anyone, regardless what anyone’s opinions may be..
You’re arguing with antisemites. So am I, so I’m going to stop.
Jordan is 80% of historical disputed lands which means Joran IS PALESTINE. The Palestinians have had many chances over the years to agree to a state, but they’ve said NO. These are INDISPUTABLE FACTS.
Hamas does not want peace. Thus, from the river to the sea is their mantra which means they want the Holocaust 2.0 / final solution.
You can’t negotiate with terrorists. There will never be peace in the middle east.
Disputable in every way. In 1948, the Palis were offered half of their land. After that, they have only been “offered” regions under Israeli control, never a state.
Jordan was never disputed. It is not/never Palestine. Regardless of your red herring, Palestinians lived in Palestine since the dawn of time. They are DNA traceable to Canaanites and Israelites. Closer to ancient Israelites than Ashkenazi and Sephardi, by the way. Isn’t it immoral to demand they move from their lands? If it’s not, shouldn’t the same logic be applied to the people that haven’t lived there for 2000 years?
Funny you seem concerned about “river to the sea” and hypothetical “genocide” when “river to the sea” is in the Likud charter and Israel always kills many more Palestinians than in reverse. Very odd.
“You can’t negotiate with terrorists”. Of course not. That’s why 100+ Israeli hostages were released through negotiation, the PA recognized Israel through negotiation, the Brits reconciled with the IRA via negotiation.
But please tell us more.
One possible silver bullet: The IDF overthrows Netanyahu and concludes a cease fire with Hamas and Hezbollah. Massive U.S. aid package quickly follows to help bring order and start rebuilding Gaza.
And WHY would they try to do this? I doubt Galant could muster enough internal support in the IDF to effect such an adventure or even be foolish enough to try as he would be executed for treason when he failed..
Destroying Hamas is impossible. Israel is just creating the next generation of Hamas. They know that and it is the purpose of the effort.
So what should Israel do? Capitulate to the Hamas terrorist technique of hiding among civilians that in all honesty, are no more innocent than the terrorists?
Let’s hear your workable plan for Israel Jon.
Step one, move Israel to the dessert in New Mexico.
Step two, make them pay for the land this time.
Hey – what do you got against New Mexico?
NM one of the greatest states in USA
they the smart israelis know it’s over. they are running out of there to brooklyn and miami. we welcome them here in brooklyn. just leave your idiotic zionism behind. be an amerika firster.
As that has ZERO chance of ever occurring, do you have a plan B that might actually be workable or do you you just like to hear yourself whine?
Stop blocking their statehood and return their stolen homes. When Israel takes its boot off Palestinians’ neck, there will be hope. The hate for what Israel did to Palis will have to dissipate slowly. That’s a good start..and the only way forward.
OK, so even if the Palestinians swore on a stack of Korans to play nice and stop hating Israel, hating Jews and shooting rockets into Israel, this has ZERO chance of occurring, what else you got?
Since you state that this is “and the only way forward”, then it seems that all that will happen is maintaining the status quo or moving backwards.
Well, since the conflict started when Israel took Palestinian land and homes, the most logical way forward is to (partly) undo the damage. Israel should stop interfering with them getting the remaining 22% of what they would have had. Stop blocking their state. It is the moral and just compromise, and generous to Israel because they get to keep the other 78%. Continuing to settle the West Bank (steal more of Palestine) is certainly counterproductive to peace. Who wouldn’t strike back?
As for terrorists… The Brits made peace with the IRA (without dropping 80,000 tons of bombs on Belfast). So, it can happen. Try something in the direction of justice and accepting that the Palis have a right to self-determination too.
Stop talking about this 2-State solution. It isn’t viable and isn’t going to happen EVER. The vast majority of Israelis are against it as are their politicians. What the USA, EU, or the UN want is of no consequence.
As long as the Palestinians are corralled into Gaza and the West Bank, they CANNOT ever have their own state. Corralled is the correct word. WHERE would the population of Palestinians expand to as it continued to grow? Once they outgrew Gaza and the West Bank, where would this state expand to?
Would the Palestinians accept managed population growth in order to not outgrow the land that is presently allocated to them? I doubt it because unlimited and unfettered population growth is a human right.
Of course, along with lack of water and natural resources, future population growth is not anything we hear the world’s politicians mentioning as issues of concern. WHY not? Because the politicians are just looking for an easy out to the Palestinian quagmire.
“Declare Gaza/West Bank a state and then leave us all alone!. Let the UN and their Arab brethren provide unlimited welfare to them.” Yeah, that’s the ticket to quote a Jon Lovitz line.
The Palestinians have to be forced out of Israel, as the settlers are slowly doing. As long as they don’t come to the USA, I don’t much care where else they go.
that part of world has always been ruled by empires. today it is USA empire. UK had it for a few short decades. before that it was ottomans, persians, romans egyptians…………tomorrow it will probably be china or persia again. israel cannot survive. they are too small and weak. the location geographically is too strategic. 100 mile land bridge of 3 continents.
This is why Israel needs to get aggressive and take over Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, at a minimum.
First he wants to expel the Palis from the WB, now he wants to expand Israel to take over other countries. Have you ever considered that maybe you hold extremist views yourself, Jojo?
[Shrug] Many may consider them extremist but they make logical sense.
There can never be one. Jews took Palestinian land and pushed them off into camps forever. No one nation can do that to another without severe on-going consequences. They will suffer those consequences forever.
You have to ask whether Israel is part of the US nuclear umbrella. An active part. Who would they be targeting?
Israel has its own atomic weapons so they don’t need ours.
Israeli and French scientists built their nuclear forces since the 1950’s.
6 now or another 1000 in the future. That’s what naive protesters can’t seem to accept.
The war must continue until all Palestinians (or Israelis) are killed. That is what you imply.
That’s the same logic of linear extrapolation in securities bubbles.
Personally, I do think Bibi’s goal is to destroy as much of Gaza as possible, rendering it as near uninhabitable as possible.
True. That is prima facie evidence that Netanyahu is an unrepentant War Criminal worthy of life imprisonment and the stripping of all his assets. The SAME Justice should be served on the entire government of War Criminals running (and RUINING) Israel AND those in our US Government aiding and abetting Gaza Genocide.
Of course I do not see that happening any time soon.Just watching how our government officials are making fools of themselves trash talking China gives anyone with two brain cells to rub together an intense desire to vomit. The financial greedballs running (and RUINING) the US and Europe, never mind their reality challenged, intellimoron trained barking seals like Marco Rubio, have reached a level of STUPID (SEE: the latest Sean Foo Economy Expert U-tube video) that is mind boggling.
They are a bunch of Baghdad Bobs trying to UNJUSTLY demonize China’s JUST policies. The scapegoating of China by American and European War Criminals will backfire massively on them. They will REAP what they have sown.
“For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.” — Proverbs 4:16-17
Funny how not one single middle eastern nation is willing to accept Palestinian refugees, these are the people that know them best, what does that tell you?
That’s because they are serving their purpose just fine. They are the Islamic Equivalent to Israel, a nation that isn’t wanted in the region. With one minor exception, they are pushing a value system that requires that Israel be destroyed.
That Israel can no coexist with them is not Israel’s responsibility or creation. The Arab world has created a simple situation that requires Israel to address it. The Arab world could address it, fix it. They wont, so Israel is required to. That is what they want and that is what they will get.
A truly offensive comment. Two questions/comments:
“The Palestinians need to move” to make space for the Eastern European immigrants. – Jojo
Again, curious as to whether you would be happy to apply your own logic to Germany 1930s in relation to German Jews? See, Jojo, we don’t allow things like that these days. It’s considered “bad form”. This is the second time you are advocating for policies that the civilized world outlawed because they were immoral and because the Nazis did them.
Perhaps you believe Israel should be allowed to fall to a similar moral bar?
AGAIN, over and done with. That all you got?
Focus on today and situations that can be changed. Whatever occurred in the past cannot be changed.
Well said. Thank you for saying it.
What I see constantly out there in the denial-of-Genocide water carriers is a consistent effort to distort reality. I don’t think it is about some pretense of empathy. Posters like the one you just responded to, though they do not like to admit it publicly, consider empathy a “weakness”.
Read more:
August 31, 2024, 07:40:17 pm
The moral imperative of an arms embargo on Israel is not just Capitalist Heresy to the Biden (AND Trump) Social Darwinists ‘R’ US; it is TOTALLY “OFF TOPIC”!
soberthinking.createaforum.com/geopolitics/war-provocations-and-peace-actions/msg2315/#msg2315
None of the Middle Eastern nations will take in more Palestinian refugees and Jews have been expelled from 109 countries. That’s why they both need a state.
Religious zealots killing religious zealots. This has been going on for thousands of years. Let them figure it out.
Meanwhile we are one mistake, miscalculation or provocation away from nuclear annihilation of the world we know. And hardly anyone talks about it or will report and write articles regarding the suicidal reasoning and policies being executed on a daily basis.
Mr. Mish, Can you please start addressing this topic more and raising awareness? Here is a link to a expert in international relations and nuclear weapons. fyi
https://www.thepostil.com/one-mistake-away-from-nuclear-war/
Nope. Jews and muslims lived pretty well together for 1000 years. This problem only started when zionists, mostly secular, quasi or fully socialists demand a piece of land inhabited by others. This isn’t a religious quarrel.
“In 1910, records show approximately 50,000 Jews living in Baghdad, which had a population of just over 200,000. By 1949, an estimated 130,000 Jews lived in Iraq, primarily in Baghdad, Basra, and Mosul.The Jewish community of Baghdad ran a variety of religious, educational, and social welfare institutions.The recovered documents provide a vivid and unparalleled record of Baghdad’s Jewish communal life from the end of the Ottoman era to the early 1970s.” – Iraqi Jewish Archive.
china took in the most fleeing jews from german nazis. that is just a fact. that most westerners are ignorant of. go study it. a great story.
I know at least two personally. But I didn’t know your claim. I’ll check it out. Regardless, I was rebutting the notion that this conflict is hundreds of years old. It is not. It dates almost precisely to the Balfour declaration whereby a piece of what would have been a Palestinian state was carved out for recent arrivals, without consulting the majority population (96% Muslim before Jewish immigration in the 1880’s and 66% Muslim by the time of partition.) Jews living among Muslims was just fine. Zionism caused the conflict.
NO government is going to use nukes. If one is used, it will be something that was stolen by criminals or terrorists.
STOP trying to spread FUD.
You mean like the criminal terrorists of the U.S.S.A? The ones that dropped 2 atom bombs on Japan?
Keep watching your Hollywood movies.
the jews fared much better under muslim rule of that area then they have under christian rule. (pax amerika rules israel. if we cut off the funds and military backing they are DOA). study history. this area is strategic for thousands of years. a 100 mile land bridge between africa/europe/asia. israel experiment has failed after only a few decades. they are too stupid and vile. i pity them immensely. most of the hasidim in brooklyn think this way. i can assure you.
The bombings will continue until they stop hating us! – Israel. (Maybe they hate Israel because Israel took their land and bomb them… just sayin’)
Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Does it matter?
As can be seen with the Settlers continuing incursion on the West Bank, the goal is to force the Palestinians to get up and move somewhere else. If they don’t do that they will be forced to do so by taking away the land they live on. Such is life.
I think you finally realize Israel’s guilt in starting this conflict. Do you object to the displacement of Jews from many places in Europe in the 1930’s? I do. Such displacement was immoral. Aren’t you advocating for the same immorality that was imposed on European Jews? I hope no one ever comes to displace you. I suspect you wouldn’t be so nonchalant.
What has happened is past. There is nothing anyone can do to change it.
The American Indians once owned all of the USA until it was taken away from them by a more powerful entity and they were constrained to reservations. Similar changes of ownership have occurred throughout history across the world, over and over and over again.
It is the height of foolishness’ to believe that the lazy, UN welfare loving Palestinians, where a majority appear to hold the belief that they are “refugees” and who advocate for dissolution of Israel and the death of Jews on a regular basis, can live inside of Israel borders.
It can’t be done and Israel appears to be finally coming out and saying we are not going to tolerate the presence of the Palestinians that want nothing more than to kill us any longer.
Gaza is no longer livable by more than a relatively small number of people. It wasn’t livable before but with the help of the UN trucking in 500 trucks of FREE food and supplies EVERY SINGLE DAY, the Palestinians took advantage and expanded their population to an unmanageable 2.5 million people prior to Oct 7th!
Gaza is a geographically limited space of 25 miles x 7 miles. It is an
area with no water resources, no natural resources, no real sewer or trash disposal resources and no government among many other limitations.
It is time that the Gazan’s were removed as the first step to moving all non-citizen Palestinians (West Bank) outside of Israel borders. They should not be allowed to rebuild or resettle Gaza. Hopefully, this is the goal of Netanyahu and his coalition.
This is ridiculous. Netanyahu is dead, the new Hitler.
Oh, Jojo… I can explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you. Signing off… Ma’salamah… Shalom…
Hmmm… “the past is the past”. Once again I’ll ask Jojo if he will apply his own principle to forgetting Oct 7th? He seems to propose principles, only to ignore them when inconvenient. Or maybe principles only apply to the people Jojo likes? What say you?
3blindmice,
If you want a good source for information check out simplicius76
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/sitrep-9224-zermak-on-escalation
Netanyahu has been sponsoring Hamas for decades while talking out of both sides of his mouth. He wanted this to happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2zadQBJj20
Misconception 2: Building Up Hamas – קריסת הקונספציות (conception2023.co.il)