Recession Evidence Piles Up with S&P PMI Services Leading the Way

Global Flash PMI courtesy of S&P. Yellow highlights and dashed line added. 

Faster Fall in US Private Sector Output Amid Weak Client Demand

The S&P reports a Faster Fall in US Private Sector Output Amid Weak Client Demand

  • Flash US PMI Composite Output Index at 45.0 (July: 47.7). 27-month low.
  • Flash US Services Business Activity Index at 44.1 (July: 47.3). 27-month low.
  • Flash US Manufacturing Output Index at 49.3 (July: 49.5). 26-month low.
  • Flash US Manufacturing PMI at 51.3 (July: 52.2) 25-month low.

Sharp Decline 

US private sector firms signaled a sharper fall in business activity during August, according to latest ‘flash’ PMI™ data from S&P Global. The decrease in output was the fastest seen since May 2020 and solid overall. The rate of contraction also outpaced anything recorded outside of the initial pandemic outbreak since the series began nearly 13- years ago.  

Though modest, the drop in new orders was the sharpest in over two years. New sales were weighed down by weak domestic and foreign client demand, as new export orders fell further and at a solid pace.  

 The rate of input cost inflation eased for the third month running midway through the third quarter, with input prices rising at the slowest pace for a year-and-a-half. That said, the pace of increase in operating expenses remained historically marked, with firms linking hikes in cost burdens to increased interest rates, and higher prices for a range of raw materials and transportation.  

Weak client demand and lower new orders led firms to scale back their hiring efforts, as employment rose at the slowest pace in 2022 to date. Although some companies continued to note challenges finding suitable replacements for voluntary leavers, a growing number of firms stated that uncertainty and rising costs led them to delay the immediate replacement of staff.  

Consistent With Recession

The entire report is consistent with recession, in contrast to ISM which allegedly covers the same things.

On August 3, I reported ISM Services Smashes Estimates to the Upside, S&P Services Is Deeply Negative

Given that the S&P PMI for services weakened further, from 47.3 to 44.1, the next ISM report rates to be interesting.

Negative surprises in ISM reports tend to result in a steep dive in the Atlanta Fed GDPNow forecast. 

Housing is also very consistent with recession. Note that the New Home Sales Crash Accelerates, Sales Down 12.6 Percent in July

Hello Recession Doubters

New home sales are down a whopping 38.5 percent since January!

When have we seen housing data this week when the economy was not in recession?

The S&P PMI report confirms. 

This post originated at MishTalk.Com

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Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago

In 2010, the PBOC’s RRR went to
18.5% – “to sterilize over-liquidity and get the money supply under control in
order to prevent inflation or over-heating”

As
I said: The only tool, credit control device, at the disposal of the monetary
authority in a free capitalistic system through which the volume of money can
be properly controlled is legal reserves. The FED will obviously, sometime in
the future, lose control of the money stock.

May
8, 2020. 10:38 AMLink

“In 2017-2019, the Fed’s balance sheet run-off shrank bank reserves held at the Fed from a peak of $2.36tn to $1.39tn in September 2019 when repo markets turned disorderly and broke out of the Fed’s desired rate corridor.”
Fed Balance Sheet Shrinkage Kicks Into High Gear In September | ZeroHedge
That was due to an interest rate inversion, disintermediation, a nonbank’s outflow of funds or negative cash flow. The FED’s Ph.Ds. in economics don’t know a debit from a credit. The NBFIs are not in competition with the DFIs. The NBFIs are the DFI’s customers. Savings flowing through the nonbanks never leave the payment’s system. But contrary to the DIDMCA of March 31st 1980, the banks are able to outbid the nonbanks for loan funds.
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
3 years ago
Note on inflation. I was camping in a National Forest Campground last week. There was a notice on the message board that the fee was going to be raised from $6 a night to $15 a night. This is for a campground with no trash service, no water, and of course no power. That works out to 250% inflation. On the other hand it has been a $6 for some years, I don’t know how many.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
And Biden throws another $300+ billion into the toilet. It will end only when politicians are held accountable on the guillotine.
Behead a few and change the attitudes of the rest….
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Quartering would also do it.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
This is probably the future of business. Limited profits and better prices for all. If all businesses effectively went nonprofit, they would be much more competitive and pay lower taxes. This is net deflationary for the overall economy.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
This is a joke, right? Mark Cuban is exploiting the Costco strategy (volume at a fixed margin) to make a great deal of money, and in the process bring down drug prices far more effectively than anything the Democraps can achieve.
Non-profits are NOT more competitive. They do pay lower taxes.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
If this takes off, the government will shut it down with regulations. The pharmaceutical industry owns congress. Including Cardinal and McKesson, who are the middle men for almost all drugs. Congress never allows anything that reduces their profits.
This is the real reason why the ACA was passed. The problem was never high insurance costs. Rather the problem was high health care costs. Insurance costs were high because health care costs were high. Not because insurance companies were making huge profits. As a matter of fact, a lot of insurance companies are non profit. The ACA insured that the real problem would never be addressed.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
“The pharmaceutical industry owns congress.”
The pharmaceutical industry also owns the FDA/NIH/CDC. According to the data, Aduhelm doesn’t work, yet got approval from the FDA.
Hydroxychloroquine+zinc, Ivermectin, Fluvoxamine, Budesonide, have good efficacy against Covid, yet they were obstructed by the FDA/NIH/CDC. The Covid shots aren’t safe, either.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
75% of the cable and sattelite TV ad revenue comes from the drug companies, which is why none of the TV networks ever cover the story. Iron Law: You work for whomever signs your paycheck.
blackswan
blackswan
3 years ago
Hi Mish,
Thanks for your insights. I was wondering what is your long term perspective on the economic regime we are in? I mean which of the 2 situations do you see:
  • inflation as being persistent and rates high in the future or,
  • back to persistent deflation and low rate environment (back to japanese style) after 1 to 2 years of transitory inflation.
I know you made numerous posts on the meaning of inflation, the FED and the bubbles in housing and SP500 etc etc but here I just mean inflation simply in the mainstream media sense i.e. CPI inflation. I ask because I want to know what’s your take on future level of rates. Cheers.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  blackswan
I was on a 1 hour videocast with Joseph Wang (former senior Fed QE trader) and Jack Farley moderating, discussing that today. Not sure when it is edited. Perhaps in a week.
In a nutshell, de-globalization and de-carbonization add significant inflation pressures. The Fed will be unable to launch another round of QE unless there is a severe credit dislocation. Housing is bad but nowhere near the credit event of 2008-2009. Rear recession or weak growth for years should crush the stock market.
For the first time in a long time the Fed, out of fear of stoking inflation, will be unable to provide much life support for the markets. The bottom in long-term yields is in, but at these yields a decent play for now.
Are you the same Blackswan that was on my old site for many years?
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
There’s no guarantee de-globalization is going to really come to pass, at least not to the extent you seem to be suggesting it may. As for decarbonization, let DeSantis get in the WH, and he’ll put some reality into the green revolution. Don’t get me wrong, going green is a great & noble goal, but subsidizing EVs for the next 10 years to the tune of $7,5000 is absolute ludicrous. What the WH should be doing is putting about $100B towards accelerating and building SMRs. Solar & wind are already cost competitive enough to continue their rise. And, Biden, as far as I know, isn’t doing anything to write home about to help ensure America becomes rare earth metals independent. All it does is try to push us away from China, which isn’t a bad idea.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Solar and wind are not cost competitive without subsidies.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Nope. Solar and wind are already cost competitive with fossil fuels and their costs will keep dropping going forward, while oil, gas and coal will only get more expensive.
I expect that the demand for fossil fuels will begin to drop by the next decade as renewables finally ramp up enough to make a dent in fossil fuel demand.
Till then, I will be happy to stay invested in oil and gas stocks which should pay me 30%/a minimum.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
“Solar and wind are already cost competitive with fossil fuels and their costs will keep dropping going forward.”
I agree with the first part, but there’s no guarantee about the later, at least not for 3-5 years. There’s going to be so much demand for solar in particular that the cost to manufacture the panels will probably rise rather than fall, especially if the US doesn’t do something like a moonshot to ramp up production domestically.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
You mean institute another money laundering operation involving solar panels, like under Obama???
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Increasing production in the USA will not necessarily drive solar panel prices down!!!
Since many workers are demanding $20-30 an hour pay!!!!
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
You could easily be correct. I understand that the closure of zinc facilities in Europe and assorted metal processors in China are temporarily causing substantial cost increases in solar panel manufacturing. But that is short term. In the long run, technology improvements will lower costs as they have for 30 years.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Hey; I have solar panels and a wind generator on my sailboat–at $4,000 plus $3,000 for batteries (every 7-8 years). It is very cost competitive compared to the alternatives (running the engine, using the generator, or dragging a long power cord). That said my 1000+ theoretical watts (on a very good day, 20 knots, long days with the sun overhead) fall far short of my typical use: 1000w per day.
Rest assured, though, I will tax the Inflation Reduction Act tax credit when I replace the panels later this year.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
You got a 30% subsidy on your panels.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
The Fed gov’t should put its money into stimulating innovation (of all kinds). Here are two suggestions that take the Space Race approach into a national/global competition:
A reward of $1/2 trillion for the development of a cost effective room-temperature superconductor.
The first prize of $10 billion for the first 18-wheeler with 100,000lb load to cross from New York to LA in five days, using the carbon equivalent of 100 gallons of diesel.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Agree with some of that.
“In a nutshell, de-globalization and de-carbonization add significant inflation pressures.”
I would add global warming/climate change as a third leg of that stool.
Also, I’m not sure what you mean by significant. I expect inflation of 3-5% for the rest of this decade. However, the biggest inflationary influence will come from energy and food.
Slow economic growth of 1% in the US. Not much better in the rest of the world.
I don’t see the stock market getting crushed, though high p/e stocks will revalue.
Some stock market sectors will do great. I expect oil and gas stocks to provide 30%/a returns for the rest of the decade. And I expect Hydrogen stocks to do well as the sector takes off in the US due to subsidies.
Both gold and cash will keep losing ground to inflation.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
“I don’t see the stock market getting crushed, though high p/e stocks will revalue.”
It will.
Due to passive investing. During GFC ETFs an irritant (around a $trillion or so total). Now? Don’t know, but a few years ago $5trillion and growing like weeds.
When investors go thru the 7 stages of grief EVERY index will be taken to the woodshed. Of course, some will fare better than others … and some individual equity will do even better. Good luck!
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
“and some individual equity will do even better”
And that is the key to success. Identifying which equities will do best. Or, more accurately, which investments will do best.
How are you presently invested?
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
I remember blackswan from the good old days.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
also Fedwatcher, and Ben franklin was right
blackswan
blackswan
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Thanks for your insights Mish, I really appreciate your common sense.
“Are you the same Blackswan that was on my old site for many years?”
No but I liked him, him and oldman. I have been reading you since 2005 and it’s only recently I decided to comment 😉
Cheers.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Yes, stagflation, business stagnation accompanied by inflation.
Financial intermediaries (nonbanks) influence the rate at
which money is being utilized, the flow of savings’ products into real investment
outlets. These nonbanks are incapable of either creating or destroying credit,
of directly adding to or subtracting from the money stock.

The U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban
Affairs and the House Committee on Financial Services should pursue every
possible means for promoting the orderly and continuous flow of monetary
savings into real investment which makes a contribution to labor and materials
(not financial investment, the transfer of title to existing goods, properties,
or claims thereto).

worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  blackswan
The Fed CANNOT keep rates high for very long. To do so, will create a debt crisis in terms of the cost of annual interest expense. We’ll spend $600B this year servicing the debt. If bills, notes & bonds all stay above 3% for more than a 18 months things will start to get pretty bad.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Because the Federal government gets preferred lending terms I would imagine increased COLA costs and inflated contract expenses due to inflation are more significant than borrowing costs.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
The flip side of the argument is they cannot under any circumstances allow inflation to get out of hand. Out of control inflation is a death sentence for any fiat currency. It would be game over for USD.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
I don’t disagree, so this puts the Fed in a very tough position.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  blackswan
Think the Fed will save the economy? Think again. The Fed has lost control–unable to do what needs to be done because the result is lose-lose either way.
Note the chart, and the underlying Taylor Rule: essentially a commonsense approach to rational economics. A lender must be rewarded for the opportunity cost of lending–real risk free rate, inflation, and a risk premium (if appropriate). By sheer incompetence, the Fed has become the lender of first resort.
The impact of 2022 inflation NOT BEING INCLUDED in the Fed Funds rate will be devastating (a -6.6% real rate is massive theft from savers, and taxpayers) .
FYI, I am not a Schiff fan. That said, he consistently gets the theory right, but the timing wrong.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab

There will come a time (unpredictable) when it will be
impossible for the government (federal) to collect enough in taxes to pay all
of its expenses, including interest on the national debt. The Gov’t can of
course borrow an indefinite amount through the Fed. (concealed green backing)
given a few changes in existing law. But that would lead to hyper inflation –
i.e., a collapse in the credit of the Gov’t.

So the easy way, is the way the French did it in 1960.
Simply say that beginning Jan 1 (or any other date), new dollars will be
issued, and that each new dollar is worth 100 old dollars. Then follow that up
with a largely state controlled economy.

In 1960, the French economist / mathematician Jacques Rueff,
during Charles de Gaulle’s presidency, converted the old franc, to a nouveau
franc, equal to 100 of the old franc. However, even with this substitution,
inflation continued to erode the currency’s value, though at lower rates of
change, in comparison to other countries. And this new franc equaled 20 cents
to a U.S. dollar. The old rate was 5.00 to a dollar.

In 1960, the French franc, which was one of the weakest
currencies, overnight, became one of the strongest. Correcting policies
included plans to 1) balance the budget, 2) stabilize the currency, and 3)
eliminate currency controls.

The gold content of the franc increased 100%, & 1)
foreign exchange rates, and 2) France’s internal prices, reflected the
conversion overnight. Internally, prices dropped about 90 per cent, and the
foreign exchange value rose from about 0.238 cents per franc, to about 20.389
cents per franc.

Domestically, France was on a managed paper standard;
externally, on a modified gold bullion standard. With the new policies,
France’s economy strengthened, and the franc became fully convertible @
approximately its gold par, into gold for foreign exchange and into foreign
currencies.

With the introduction of the Euro, the franc in Jan. 1,
1999, was worth less than 1/8 of its Jan. 1, 1960 value.

At that point we’ll probably see:

Federal Reserve Board –
Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC)

The target is the underground economy (“the part of a country’s
economic activity that is unrecorded and untaxed by its government; the black
market”).

Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
I expect about 20% of the economy goes untaxed by the Feds. 87K new IRS agents will focus on it.
Sadly, the French solution is not beneficial to corrupt US politicians.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
I don’t know about comparing France then to US now. Back then France a back water economy (GDP < $100 billion) and franc’s global impact needed a microscope. US is world’s largest economy and possesses THE reserve currency.
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
Presumably it wasn’t the 100 old francs for 1 new franc that resolved their issues but the other policies you listed. Namely “1) balance the budget, 2) stabilize the currency, and 3) eliminate currency controls.” together with the increase in the Gold content. Wasn’t the franc conversion just window dressing?
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
3 years ago
The “Great Resignation” was one of my leading indicators the economy was topping. Housing is another topping indicator. Trouble in the retail sector and hiring freezes are enough confirmation for me to call the beginning of a recession for the average person.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Six000mileyear
There was a recession in Q4 of 2019 and Q1 of 2020. To me we are headed to a shallow recession at worst and 1% growth at best. The bottom line is all the stimulus the last 2.5 years overheated the economy along with low rates.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Yes, the repo crisis caused a deceleration. The FED’s Ph.Ds. don’t know a credit from a debit.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
The ‘repo crisis’ was a symptom of a greater problem. My question is when the greater problem gets out of hand. I think the Fed is finally losing control.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
$2K for u and me, $40K student loans jubilee, before Nov election. The young and the talented zoomers and millennial can pile more debt, mortgage debt, to forget. // The Yangtze river is drying. Europe might enter recession before China. If so, USD in accumulation will breach the 1999/2001 highs. // Gold, up $1000 between 2015 low and 2020 high. Gold retraced 38%. After a rd trip to the top, gold might retrace 50%-62%. // The Saudis and Putin will get paid in deflated RMB. // The FANG are gone. FB became META. Zuk : “META” is a dead female in Hebrew.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
The biggest and most immediate threat are the millions of evictions projected to happen between now and 2023.
If you thought tent cities were bad wait till it turns 10x worse. Anyone here from Indiana? What is going on there that people get evicted so much?
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
Eviction labs have been adding cities to their database over last 2 years so not surprising the numbers are increasing.
Also appears that evictions are only returning to pre-COVID rates.
Regardless, there are a lot of evictions.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  Jack
The numbers are bad now and it doesn’t even capture all the cities, easy to extrapolate that the problem is way worse than anyone thinks.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Jack
As someone who owns a vacant condo, I say that we haven’t rented it out after Oregon instituted rent control. Good decision, because then came the scamdemic, when Oregon, Washington, and California effectively stopped evictions for any reason.
Okay, that’s just an anecdote. Right? Wrong! Now hear this: 30% of rental units (at least) are supplied by small-timers. Not only that, but those units tend to be at the lower and middle end. The high-end stuff is corporate. Those guys have lawyers, and they just pass it through. Those like us? We look at this and say to each other: How bad do we need the money? Our answer is: Meh. Keep it unoccupied.
As more “progressive” blue states add rent control either in fact or between the lines, just watch what happens to supply over time. Think rents are high now? Just wait. This stuff moves in long cycles. I’ve been a tenant, a landlord, and for the past 30 years a homeowner. For the past 20 years, free and clear. I’ve watched it happen and I’ve felt it happen.
Think rents are high now? Talk to me in 2032.
Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
$10,000 student loan forgiveness? My daughter paid off the remaining $5,500 of her student loans last April.
Does that make her stupid or a good steward?
Can’t wait for the Medicare and Social Security bailouts that will occur around 2030.
Inflation anyone?
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
The Democratic Party considers your daughter a sucker. Not me. I consider her to be honest. In the long run, honesty wins. If not economically, then in self respect, which is worth more than money.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
Don’t understand why people are complaining about student loan forgiveness, everybody gets different tax breaks, different property tax rates, different sales tax rates, etc. Student loans in question are government subsidized loans so this is just another tax break that some will lose out on like everything else.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
So your message to a kid just entering college is: “I’m a Democrat, and I couldn’t care less about you. Pay up, sucker.”
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
No one forced anyone to take or not take a student loan just like no one forces anyone to move to Texas with a high property tax rate or California with a high income tax or Illinois with both.
The gas tax pays for roads and I doubt you’ve driven on every single road across the united states, were you a sucker for paying the gas tax? Again, some states have a high gas tax others lower. I went through college on a combination of federal grants and student loans, I paid the loans back in full and the grants were a tax gift which I’ve repaid 1000x over.
Personally, I want educated and productive people in society, it’s the price I’m willing to let my taxes pay over wars or oil & gas tax subsidies. Again, we don’t all get what we want and make trade offs.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
Um, they already got their education. They were already eligible for grants. You are a typical liberal. Screw everyone so your side can do better in a midterm election. Pathetic.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Yes. Conservatives never screwed anyone.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
You clearly do not understand how colleges and universities operate. First off, the quality of higher education is in decline. They also, in the most part; do NOT turn out educated and productive people. Failure begins with liberal academics being fundamentally opposed to commercial activity. Ultimately, universities are not held to a standard, and are irresponsible at the highest level.
What is needed?
Lower tuition, shorter time to degree, better quality graduates, better quality faculty working harder, reduced administration, degrees that lead to real jobs in the field, etc.
Interestingly, the fix is simple, and it eliminates the student loan problem. MAKE EACH UNIVERSITY/COLLEGE THE GUARANTOR FOR THE STUDENT LOANS USED FOR TUITION.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Let me add to that, Captain:
We need to curtain white collar visa by at least 90%. Big Tech & the medical industry are riding H1-B’s to record profits. There are ton’s of qualified American’s for all sorts of high tech / medical jobs that are going to foreign nations just to save money.
Stop onshoring foreign labor!!!
Rbm
Rbm
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
Im not saying i agree with student loan forgiveness. I will share agreement and general observation. People tend to complain when others get a hand out from the govment which they do not benefit from. Guess its human nature.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Rbm
Liberals refuse to see the moral hazard, which is why they are liberal. They have no morals.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
1) it’s inflationary. Now debtors will have an extra $10 to spend.
2) it adds to the national debt.
3) It’s giving money to those who need it least. Most of the money is owed by people with advanced degrees. They’re struggling far less then the average person.
4) It will add to out of control college costs.
5) it will encourage more people to borrow since they’ll think there’s a good chance of the debt being canceled.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
You can take everything you wrote and apply it to FEMA every time a hurricane blows through Florida. Those hurricane victims will now have extra money to spend, it adds to national debt, it’s giving money to people with insurance, it will add to costs of lumber and hotels, and people will rebuild if they know they will be bailed out again. Add earthquakes, forest fires, tornados and you are left with nowhere to live and that’s where student debt holders are right now.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
1) Because loans aren’t supposed to be forgiven, they are supposed to be paid back.
2) Because not everyone was eligible for the government subsidized loans (only poor people) and had to take private ones.
3) Because once you do it once, you establish the precedent and will asked to do it again and again.
4) Because it doesn’t fix the underlying problem that the government loans themselves created (making college more expensive) and could easily make it even worse with the idea of future forgiveness.
5) Because there are many jobs (like non-profit charity etc) that already come with built in loan forgiveness if you stay for X number of years or if you joined the military you get X amount toward college etc.
And none of that addresses the fact that many paid back their loans in full and future kids like my daughter may not get 10K forgiveness.
So absolutely no to forgiveness.
On the other hand, I don’t think the government should be in the business of making money on loans. So I would be OK with:
1) The interest rate on government student loans being set to 0% for all government student loans so no one sinks further into student loan debt.
2) To balance this, all future tax returns (assuming you get any) are immediately applied to your loans until paid in full so if someone decides to never pay, they can also never get a tax return. The government gets a first rights lien against the person so if they never pay, when they die, the government gets first crack at their estate.
3) The government exits the student loan business over the course of say the next 5 or 10 years. During that time they are allowed to make decreasing amounts of loans each year till it reaches 0 (so if this year they make 50 billion, next year 40, then 30, then 20, then 10, then 0).
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I have an idea, no student loan forgiveness in exchange for boomers giving up social security and medicare. After all, millenials are paying into both and it’s unlikely there will be any money left for them. Seems fair way to fix the debt issue. Boomers will just have to pick themselves up by their bootstraps…
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
Boomers paid for the generations before them (the greatest generation and the silent generation). Now younger generations are paying for boomers. It’s always been like that.
There will always be money left for them. It’s easy to fat finger some digital cash. The real question is what will it buy and how much. No one has the answer to that.
Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
Let’s just call it,
‘Cash for Clunkers’.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
Next up will be pension bailouts.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Recession. No recession. Doesn’t matter. Don’t care.
What matters is that we are in for a period of slow economic growth, probably for the rest of this decade.
And once we recognize that, then to identify which investments will do well in that environment.
I have been suggesting for many months now that energy is one area that will do well in a slow growth environment (no need to explain why as I have done it many times before).
Some here are appreciative and have probably acted on my advice. Some try to ridicule me and probably do not act on the advice.
That’s what makes a market. Differences of opinion.
The markets are struggling lately with the slow growth environment. But energy continues to shine.
Soon, I will be talking about some Hydrogen investments that I am making, as I think that Hydrogen will be another growth area through the rest of this decade.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
HJEN, LIT, QS, SLDP, TAN, ENVX, GWH would seem to be good green investments.
GOOGL. AI & PLTR should do well as AI continues to develop and starts to mature in about 10 years.
Utilities should do very well. I’d like to see SO drop some and then buy in about $65. I think we the two new nuclear power reactors at Vogle coming on-line in the next 9 month or so, they’re setup well to be a leader in the SMR arena that should start taking off with more licenses approved in the next 3 years or so.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe

Thank you so much for those investment ideas. So nice to see that here! I will have a look at each one.

MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
The easy money is to buy put options on home builders, based on the 2008 housing collapse, many of the homebuilder stocks will tank around late 2023 to early 2024. Save a link to this post and check back in with me in early 2024. I have bought put options on a few home building stocks.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
Interesting. Thanks.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Shanghai ==> dark as Beirut. Brussells superiority, darker.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
This feels like more like the hangover after the Y2K boom after so much money was created due to fear of Y2K by Greenspan. We are currently somewhere in the year 2000. It took 9/11 after the summer of 2001, in order to truly get a real recession. I suspect this time around will be more like 2000/2001 before 9/11. Lots of parallels between overcapitalization leading up to 2000 and during Covid. I also see parallels of a black swan event between the USS Cole bombing in 2000 and possible incursion into a NATO country by Putin. Similar levels of uncertainty after the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, Afghanistan missile strikes and this time around with Russia invading Ukraine. There was also an Asian financial crisis in the late 90s that caused problems. History may not repeat by it often rhymes.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago

No money stock figure acting alone is adequate as a “guidepost” for monetary policy. If you get a 200% increase in the primary money stock:

“Quantity leads and velocity follows” Cit. Dying of Money -By Jens O. Parsson

JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
The way I view it is this: Create too much money, and prices go up. Rising prices boost velocity, and it becomes a spiral. Create too little money, and prices go down. If they decline enough, velocity declines and it becomes a spiral. How’s that for the dumb version? The extreme cases: The great German inflation of 1923 and the Great Depression of 1930-1940.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb

As Dr. Philip George pointed out:

#1 “The velocity of money is a function of interest rates”
#2 “Changes in velocity have nothing to do with the speed at which money moves
from hand to hand but are entirely the result of movements between demand
deposits and other kinds of deposits.”
#3 “When the interest rate is zero the velocity of money will tend to zero.
This is because there is no incentive to move their accumulated savings out of
demand deposits.”
#4 “When interest rates go up, flows into savings and time deposits increase.”
#5 “Holding interest rates down does nothing to boost investment because the
problem is falling consumption.”
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
You know what? I think you are far and away the smartest person on this site. It might not be in your lizard/cultural brain, so let me say: Americans have a respect for raw intelligence that would shock anyone, sometimes even ourselves. I could go on, but I write too long. Suffice to say that I paid you the highest compliment I can pay, if that matters.

Now I get to complain. You do a lot of shorthand here. I could go on, but sometimes Occam’s Razor is best.

Finally, I am the grandson of immigrants who fled the Great German Inflation. #1-#5? Who am I to argue (see praise above)? Now tell me why he and his fellow workers were paid twice a day, allowing them to rush out and buy food before the prices went up? (see complaint above)

hmk
hmk
3 years ago
Covered here before but this is an interesting interview. I imagine this time bomb will contribute to the continued fubb the fed/democrats and republicans did and continue to do to the economy. https://app.hedgeye.com/insights/120295-webcast-deep-dive-with-danielle-dimartino-booth-lucky-lopez
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  hmk
Iron Law: Internet videos without transcripts are the worthless product of the terminally lazy.
hmk
hmk
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I try to listen to interviews like that will driving. There should be a transcript option to this stuff. I don’t know why its not embedded in the page with the video.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  hmk
Someone was too lazy to run it through speech-to-text and then edit what comes out. If it didn’t matter to the publisher, it couldn’t have been worthwhile.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  hmk
Great interview
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
Does anyone know the new definition of a recession? Asking for a friend.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Billy
Recession – “Something that only happens when Republicans are in charge”
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65

Our economy is merely advancing toward a more sustainable platform for future growth, thanks to the wise and benevolent leadership of Joseph Cornelius Biden.

Call_Me
Call_Me
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Realist, is that you? 🙂
Call_Me_Al
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  Billy
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
The economy is being run in
reverse. Powell eliminated reserve
requirements against commercial bank deposit liabilities. And the last vestige of
legal reserve and reserve ratio requirements against the Federal Reserve Note,
demand deposit, and inter-banks demand deposit liabilities of the Reserve banks
was eliminated in 1968. Today the Federal Reserve Note has no legal reserve
requirements, and the capacity of the Fed to create IBDDs has no legal limit.
These IBDDs are owned by commercial banks; they are bank free-gratis legal
reserves and can be converted dollar-for-dollar into Federal Reserve Notes. The
volume of IBDDs is almost exclusively related to the volume of Reserve Bank
credit. When Federal Reserve Banks expand credit, for example by buying U.S.
obligations, the balance sheets of the Banks reflect an increase in earning
assets and an equal increase in IBDD liabilities, i.e., free-gratis legal
reserves (not a tax).
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
For those of us sitting in the cheap seats, would you care to show why the economy is being run in reverse?
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Economists don’t know the:
the difference between the supply of money & the supply
of loan funds,

the difference between means-of-payment money & liquid
assets,

the difference between financial intermediaries & money
creating institutions,

don’t know that interest rates are the price of loan-funds,
not the price of money,

that the price of money is represented by the various price
(indices) level,

Banks aren’t intermediaries. As the economic syllogism posits:

#1) “Savings require prompt utilization if the circuit flow of funds is to be
maintained and deflationary effects avoided”…
#2) ”The growth of commercial bank-held time “savings” deposits shrinks
aggregate demand and therefore produces adverse effects on gDp”…
#3) ”The stoppage in the flow of funds, which is an inexorable part of
time-deposit banking, would tend to have a longer-term debilitating effect on
demands, particularly the demands for capital goods.” Circa 1959
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Example: As I commented on 12-16-12, 01:50 PM #1 when the FDIC’s
unlimited transaction deposit insurance was reduced to $250,000:

“We’re close to seeing the real power of OMOs”
“R-gDp is likely to accelerate earlier and faster than anyone now expects.
The RoC in M*Vt before any new stimulus is already above average. With low
inflation (given some deficit resolution), Jan-Apr could be a zinger”

Then we got the “taper tantrum” and subsequently
above average R-gDp and N-gDp growth rates by putting savings back to work (by
increasing money velocity).

My forecast for a: “Zinger” – a surprise, shock,
or piece of electrifying news.

So we had a “taper tantrum” and a temporary rise
in gDp:

01/1/2013 ,,,,, 4.4
04/1/2013 ,,,,, 1.6
07/1/2013 ,,,,, 5.1
10/1/2013 ,,,,, 6.1
01/1/2014 ,,,,, 0.7
04/1/2014 ,,,,, 7.0
07/1/2014 ,,,,, 7.1
10/1/2014 ,,,,, 2.6
01/1/2015 ,,,,, 3.2
04/1/2015 ,,,,, 5.0

That’s called a “predictive success”. “The only relevant test of the validity of a hypothesis
is comparison of prediction with experience.” – Nobel Laureate Dr. Milton
Friedman

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
See:
Dr. Philip George – October 9, 2018: “At the moment, one can safely say that
the Fed’s plan for three more rate hikes in 2019 will not materialise. The US
economy will go into a tailspin much before that.”
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
It makes no sense to curtail the building of new residential housing by raising interest rates. That’s destroying R-gDp instead of inflation.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
“Only terrorists talk about recessions before November 9th.”

– Joe

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Yes, kind of funny how they are doing their best to avoid talking about recession (or redefining), but I’m OK with that.
The alternative (as in past slow downs) is a rush to push out more wasteful fiscal stimulus that only serves to kick the can at best.
Deficit was over $700 billion thru first 10 months of FY2022 … projected to be around $1 trillion for FY. No doubt POTUS would like to brag about keeping it under $trillion.
I expect a lot more stimulus down the road, just not in the near term.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
True enough. Their insistence on not seeing what’s in front of their face is going to come back and bite them.
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
3 years ago
You american warmongers, with your senile president, controlled with consent by a utterly criminal Deep State mafia , seem to be doing quite fine when compared with the fckn EU, run by corrupt and/or deluded idiots saying yes to their bribing/blackmailing ‘frends’ at the other side of the pond, ‘frends’ salivating and prospering on a eternal war perspective, whether against provoked Russia or just another invented enemy , so articles about PMI , interest rates , recession or whatever you come up with are totally irrelevant ……NOW everything is about your fckn war with Russia, a armed to the teeth nuclear nation ….You ARE fckn idiots after all, are you not ? ….Yes, ALL of you , after all YOU elect YOUR criminals and you don t seem to mind WHAT they are up to , since 2001 in particular….
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
It must be Schnapps Time in Belgium. LOL
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
….Enlighten my Schnapps clouded mind then , if you can , which I doubt…..
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Only when you wake up, take a couple aspirins, and become coherent. LOL
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Seems to me that Europe’s problems started with the EU green welfare state. Keeping in mind that the US has the same green welfare state, the result of Hollywood and liberals taking over the universities, and education in general. Liberals are going to look really f’n dumb when it turns out that ‘climate change’ is the result of precession of the equinoxes.
Do I need to add /sarc?
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab

The EUROZONE — froze savings, by full guarantees of
bank-holding company debt (“Bull By the Horns”, pg. 113 Sheila Bair). That’s what killed it.

The accounting error is that banks aren’t intermediaries. An increase in bank-held savings shrinks gDp. An increase in FDIC insurance shrinks gDp.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
Why would anyone save when interest rates are NEGATIVE? Imagine having a negative opportunity cost for forgoing consumption. It is irrational, bank-holding companies and accounting errors do not change that. The result is borrow, borrow, borrow, with a massive dislocation of risk and return, and misallocation of capital.
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
In case you can’t borrow tomorrow I suppose. But I get your point.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
THAADS to Japan & S.Korea, but not to Ukraine…
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
BUD for u, but alcohol is illegal in Brussells
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
From our side of the pond it looks like Klaus Schwab lives in your backyard. Besides, I don’t buy gas imported from Russia, do you?
We also don’t disagree that we have a senile president. We are currently putting people in positions who don’t qualify just to prove to those types of people that we aren’t racist, xenophobes, sexist, discriminate against the senile, etc.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Moose and Squirrel evade you yet again, Comrade Yoda, while you make toilet emails for stupid americanskis! Fearless Leader is not pleased!
radar
radar
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Did you drink the whole bottle?
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  radar
I want to know if he ate the worm. LOL
radar
radar
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Ha, I bet he did!
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  radar
A real American man drinks the mezcal and eats the worm. Europeans sip cognac. LOL
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
There are two subject that can separated.
1. The self-harm heaped by the Atlanticist-wined elites on their own population.
2. The ease by which the sheep can be coralled, which is timeless and universal.
I am not sure which is more depressing.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Economy has 2 hurdles dead ahead.
1) heating costs
2) student loans
Student loans is the interesting one. The $1.7 trillion burrito has been sidelined with deferment for over 2 years. Current deferment ends August 31st. POTUS under tremendous pressure to “forgive” some / all of debt before mid terms. No way he wipes it all away (current talk of $10K for those making less than $150K), but with decision … means everyone else has to (finally) start paying again. POTUS could punt past election with deferment extension, but liberals won’t be happy.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
If they “forgive” student loan debt, they will trigger massive future defaults.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
LMAO. Why would anyone ‘… (finally) start paying again…’? The rest of the debt will be forgiven in 2024, or sooner.
Every taxpayer making less than $150K, who repaid their student loan(s) needs to revolt and deduct $10K from their 1040.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Plus every future student too. My daughter is 14 and will be headed off in 3 years. She should get a nice check for 10K for tuition otherwise she starts 10K in debt behind everyone lucky enough to get 10K forgiven.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I have a 14 yo daughter too. About to enter 9th grade. My other kids have no debt. I made or am making sure they graduate with no debt over their heads. I’m such an idiot.
jiminy
jiminy
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I can’t wait to pay her bills!
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
If they forgive a penny, it will piss off everyone who doesn’t have debt and the majority who have debt are likely democrats. Forgiving is a dumb idea. Which is why I think they’ll forgive.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
Add in the future students too who will start 10K behind everyone who gets 10K forgiven. The government will have to hand out 10K to every future student to even the playing field.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
And every college will raise tuition by $10k, so effectively the government will hand every university $10k for every student and students will be no better off.

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