S&P 500 – What is the Pain Threshold for the Fed and Traders?

$SPX chart courtesy of StockCharts.Com, annotations by Mish

$SPX S&P 500

I expect those green boxes representing unfilled gaps to easily fill.

That bottom gap would represent a 30% decline from the top. It will easily fill, in due time.

What is a Gap?

  • A gap up occurs when the market or an individual issue opens higher than the high on the previous day.
  • A gap down occurs when the market or an individual issue opens lower than the low on the previous day.

I am a big believer in the theory that most gaps fill. 

Support Lines

The blue dashed lines represent technical support lines. I expect bounces at those levels. Indeed, there was a nice bounce off that level but the market is heading back towards support.

Expect another bounce when that top gap closes.

S&P 500 3700 Level

That 3700 level came up in a recent Tweet regarding the Fed.

Latest ⁦BankofAmerica⁩ Global Fund Manager Survey shows investors now believe Fed “put” is hovering around 3700 (for S&P 500)

Let?!

Key Idea

“The Fed cannot rescue markets while simultaneously trying to convince Washington that it is determined to fight inflation, slowing growth notwithstanding. In any case the pain threshold (if there is one) is much higher (lower asset values) than in Q4 ’18 imho.”

Speaking of let, please let this sink in: “In any case the pain threshold (if there is one) is much higher (lower asset values) than in Q4 ’18 imho.”

Pain Threshold Q4 2018

$SPX chart courtesy of StockCharts.Com, annotations by Mish

If IZ is correct, and I think he is, then the S&P 500 2800 level is in play and a return to the 2000 level is not at all out of the equation. 

The 2800 level would be a decline of 42%. That’s the minimum decline I expect from the top. 

A decline to that level should be expected, not shocking. And it would not even make the market cheap by historical standards, just reasonably priced.

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
The pain threshold?   I would say the psychologically important levels of 4000 on the S&P 500, and 30,000 on the Dow.   If the market goes below that, we can expect the financial and mainstream media to start having diarrhea.   
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
2 years ago
375 SPY, 130 $brent, Gold 2080, COMPQ 13100
Get ready little lady hell is coming for breakfast
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
It’s going to be a good year to continue to build positions in oil&gas, uranium, miners of all kinds, and pms. I don’t expect anything right now but bear market chop and maybe waterfall drops…..but I think the 2nd half of the year sees some recovery….with the commodity sector outperforming. We shall see.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Great insights on where the bottoms might be. I too believe mightily in gaps getting filled. It doesn’t always happen, but it damns sure does a lot of the time.
Christoball
Christoball
2 years ago
  I have a question??? comment or observation on trade volume.
  I noticed that volume on the Dow, S&P 500, Russel 2000 where “relatively” (plus or minus 10%-20%) flat the last 5 years despite price. The Nasdaq on the other hand has a declination mark about half way though that 5 year time period of lets say before covid and after covid. During this time I see volume nearly doubling after covid with the exception of a January 2022 decline. This somewhat makes sense because the Nasdaq had more irrational gains than the other indexes.
   Now when I look at Crude Oil I see that in the same 5 year period that trade volume has decreased by 50% after the covid declination point. So today’s oil prices are being supported by lower trade volume, even though consumption is recovering to pre-covid levels. I realize that oil is a consumable and not just a stock certificate. Are the big oil companies just using their own oil in house and not trading it??? Or is it that fewer gamblers are interested in trading oil??? Or am I reading the charts wrong and just don’t understand oil????
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Maybe I am just plain ignorant. To me those gaps represent significant unfilled expectations between two trading days. The market expected ‘A’ at the close of trading. At the next opening, something had changed (significantly), so the earlier expectation was unfounded, and opening prices changed accordingly. Were there unheralded changes in Fed policy, for example?  And how one ‘fills’ such information gaps (ex poste), I have no idea.
BTW, I expect there are doctoral dissertations on event studies covering such gaps (in retrospect).
IMHO, with respect to technical analysis (and the inherent assumption that the past predicts the future), there is more to be gained by understanding the fundamentals that drive valuation, whether politics, economics, or butterflies.
How  low can the market go? Regression to the mean (because statistically it must for the mean to occur), and then some to adjust for the override. That said, I lost a lot in the last recession when the Fed bailed out the markets. The drop, as bad as it was, was still far from the over-ride. Markets remained over-priced, and it only got worse. A hands-off crash will shock everyone.
ohno
ohno
2 years ago
So if it did become reasonably priced at 2800 does that mean it will ramp back to overpriced in 2 days? Lol.   I’d like to see 2k or lower.  Knock it off with this stupid crap.  
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
What happen to deflation ? 
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
2 years ago
Lurking.
Asset deflation?  Absolutely.
CPI?  Not so much, but wouldn’t be surprised at a few negative year over years at some point.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Now you’re getting it exactly right, Mr. Bennet.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
The idea is that, as you get asset deflation, that slows spending, which in turn slows the inflation rate. I don’t think the powers that be will willingly trigger a recession, so we shall see.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
2 years ago
excellent post mish.   keep up the information flow and analysis.    appreciate it.   
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
The reason inflation exists is because if derivatives that trade but never take delivery of commodities. If anyone in Washington wanted to truly get inflation down they would propose banning derivatives trading that doesn’t take delivery of end products.  This would bring down the price of everything on main street almost overnight. A few hedge funds would blow up but the Fed bails those guys out every year anyway.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago

I agree with Mish. The market can go much lower than most people realize.
The paradox is that most people realize that we are in an inflationary cycle in
most goods people need to buy whether it be good, fuel or rent yet they also
assume that the Fed will not raise rates much because of a quasi-religious
belief that the level of the stock market is the only thing that counts. At
some point what we thought was a given in Fed behavior might no longer be true.
We haven’t had inflation like this worldwide since the 1970’s and that is
something new to just about everyone on the planet. To expect that the central
banks will continue with the same policies when the economic environment is
rapidly changing and not in the good direction is not a reasonable assumption
and is based on self-deception. 

 

In a real bear market like in the late 1960’s and 1970’s all stocks went
down. Believing you are covered by your excellent stock selections is like
being at the best table in the best restaurant on the Titanic. In the end it won‘t
matter. In a long bull market everyone thinks they are a financial genius.
In long bear markets their hard-unearned wealth disappears. Does anyone remember
a Time magazine cover titled “The Death of Equity”? That was the feeling at the
end of that bear market. Ironically it signalled that the bottom finally had
been reached.

Scooot
Scooot
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
“To expect that the central banks will continue with the same policies when the economic environment is rapidly changing and not in the good direction is not a reasonable assumption and is based on self-deception.”
Judging by the previous post about Evan’s remarks it seems as if they still don’t quite believe it. However I agree with everything you said. 
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
“In a real bear market like in the late 1960’s and 1970’s all stocks went
down. Believing you are covered by your excellent stock selections is like
being at the best table in the best restaurant on the Titanic.”
In 1972, there was a group of stocks called the Nifty Fifty. “The fifty stocks everyone had to own and could never go down.” Well, they did. The 1973-74 bear market.
Christoball
Christoball
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
“Does anyone remember
a Time magazine cover titled “The Death of Equity”? That was the feeling at the
end of that bear market. Ironically it signalled that the bottom finally had
been reached.”
Mish said it well, something like  ” Bull markets end on good news, Bear markets end on bad news.”
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
The Fed can’t raise ‘rates’ because the higher interest on new issue debt would bankrupt the Federal Government–they re too dumb to cut back on wasteful spending. Higher yields would induce a drop in bond prices and stock prices that would decimate pension funds, 401Ks… And now inflation, which should be a determining factor in i-rates and yields, is out of control.
Further, there is no way of getting inflation back in Pandora’s box without taking a massive hit. There is a reason why central banks are accumulating gold.
TCW
TCW
2 years ago

The Fed’s already making excuses why they won’t significantly raise rates – link to finance.yahoo.com

Evans, in prepared remarks, laid out the case that price pressures still
stand to ease on their own without aggressive Fed interest rate
increases.
“Our present monetary policy setting is wrong-footed against the
current, sharp increase in inflation,” Evans said at a conference
organized by University of Chicago Booth School of Business.  However,
stripping out pandemic and supply chain effects that are likely to
fade, “by my reading underlying inflation appears to still be well
anchored at levels consistent with the Fed’s average 2 percent
objective,” he said.
Scooot
Scooot
2 years ago
Reply to  TCW
Transitory without saying so lol 
MPO45
MPO45
2 years ago
What I dont understand is why the “free market” is so dumb.  Based on the information on this post (s&p drop of 42%), I checked ALL the put options on SPY for all of 2022 and didnt find any significant volume except for Feb 28, 2022 where there are about 35000 put contracts trading at 220 to 225 strike level.     
You would think some enterprising profit traders would be jumping at the chance to take advantage of this amazing coming market crash opportunity but no one seems interested.  So if the free market is dumb that must mean everyone here is smart.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
The problem with learning by experience is you take the test before you learn the material. It is easy to make money in a rising market–like the tide, it lifts all boats. No one goes aground. A falling market, especially if the decline is precipitous, as the next one will be, is a whole different beast–if only because of its global scale.
Robbyrob
Robbyrob
2 years ago
While the rest of you are worrying about life in the present day, our stellar legislators here in Arizona are fighting for us like it’s 1953. Taking time off from their avowed goal of making it so difficult to vote that no will be able to, Arizonans are now at the forefront of fighting the “Chinese Communists” here so you don’t have to. No siree Bob, they are determined to take us back to a simpler time, when Commies couldn’t buy land, minorities couldn’t vote and no one paid any attention to the antics of the state legislature. The real problem here is if the Chinese can’t buy land in Arizona, the who are the Saudis going to sell it to?
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Reply to  Robbyrob
Many countries don’t allow foreigners to own land. And how are they making it difficult to vote? Is it voter ID? Do these same people who can’t vote ever fly on an airplane, drive a car, or have a job?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
2 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
hooey on many countries don’t allow land ownership from foreign folks.   total rubbish.   
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Robbyrob
Lol. Real estate would crash in a month if foreign flows stopped. It would feel like the early 2000s again for real estate prices before banks in China and Russia were allowed to launder money to the west 
MPO45
MPO45
2 years ago
You forgot the drug cartels, amazing how people dont know how the world works and what truly keeps things going these days.
FlyNavy1
FlyNavy1
2 years ago
Reply to  Robbyrob
Last time I checked you need an ID to buy a beer, fly, collect unemployment or open a nail salon.
Billy
Billy
2 years ago
Reply to  FlyNavy1
You also need an ID to get the vaccine. This is a big deal because the vaccine saves everyone’s lives. It seems strange to me that they care more to track who gets the vaccine then who votes. They also require IDs to purchase or sell crypto. Gee, I thought crypto was a great alternative to fiat.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Reply to  Robbyrob
This is the other side of the wealth effect from international trade. There was a time when Americans bought up Europe, much to the chagrin of the locals.
killben
killben
2 years ago
“A decline to that level should be expected, not shocking. And it would not even make the market cheap by historical standards, just reasonably priced.”
If the Fed is not in control then would the market get cheap at some point?
LawrenceBird
LawrenceBird
2 years ago
Mish – take a look at Market Cap vs GDP on a long term basis.   Falling 50% would only bring that to ‘rich’ historical levels.
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Reply to  LawrenceBird
I said that but I like your phraseology better, thanks
FlyNavy1
FlyNavy1
2 years ago
Reply to  LawrenceBird
The Buffett indicator.  Haven’t heard that one lately.  Mish, any analysis on this?
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
“The Fed is not in control of everything, never was really, but belief goes a long way.”
Everything is based on faith. Faith in family and friends. Faith in religion. Faith in science. “Full faith and credit of the U.S. government.” It is due to faith, that there are not bank runs in the U.S.
If one looks under the hood, one can see the corruption underlying everything.
In 2005, Alan Greenspan praised bankers for getting people into homes they otherwise could not afford.
“Could not afford” was the operative phrase, not the qualifier, “otherwise.” It was a temporary illusion that they could “afford” the home.
The FED has a mandate of full employment. Employment tanks in a recession and takes years to reach full again. At which time, the economy is getting closer to the next recession, because it will be overheating.
Because of the business cycle, the FED can never keep the mandate on a perpetual basis. The FED mandate is nothing to have faith in.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
2 years ago
“The Fed cannot rescue markets while simultaneously trying to convince Washington that it is determined to fight inflation, slowing growth notwithstanding.”
While POTUS has nominated Powell for a second term, he has not been confirmed by Senate.  
Confirmation possible if Powell sits on his hands?? 
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
2 years ago
“S&P 500 – What is the Pain Threshold for the Fed and Traders?”
We won’t need Carnac …
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
2 years ago
Another day of curve flattening.
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Whatever the FED does will be a political decision, not economic. if the dems believe they can somehow salvage the mid terms, they’ll probably force the FED to try to rescue the S&P. If they decide it’s better to punt the mid terms and focus on 2024, the FED may focus on getting inflation under control and ignore the S&P. My money, based on the track record of the current administration, is on whatever ends up hurting the democrats the most.
thimk
thimk
2 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
Yes ,and to add another variable; who will be the next fed chair  Jerome Powell ?  Also I don’t see how the dems can salvage the mid terms no matter how much money they throw at it.
Sunriver
Sunriver
2 years ago
Pension plans would certainly fail en masses with the S&P 500 at 2000. My company’s failed in 2014. The only solution as an individual is to stay out of debt. 
Tex
Tex
2 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
“… stay out of debt.” I’ve had Zero Debt since Feb2003. Have since paid cash for what I own. I pay Visa statement in full each month upon receipt. For 20 years I have told no one who has listened to have Zero Debt, none could comprehend. An astounding, though not surprising, aspect of our Programming is that the vast majority of those making payments believe that they actually own what they’re making payments on: house, car, et al. Yeah, I understand the “possession is nine-tenths of the law expression,” but it means little without a clear title. Years ago I repossessed vehicles as a casual gig. Can’t count those who told me I could not repo their vehicle because they “owned it.”
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Reply to  Tex
I paid off my mortgage back in I think 2008. I never buy anything I can’t pay off when I get the next month’s statement. Not having any debt is priceless.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Tex
Years ago I repossessed vehicles as a casual gig. Can’t count those who
told me I could not repo their vehicle because they “owned it.”
Many years ago a car repo guy lived in the same apartment complex as i. One day, the person who’s car he was repoing, came out with rifle and killed him.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Sunriver
The Fed won’t let that happen. They will QE with one hand and raise rates a couple of times and we will be done. I see rangebound trading for awhile before the next base is formed. The Fed will risk inflation before crashing the market like in 2009. 
klausmkl
klausmkl
2 years ago
The Federal Reserve, US Treasury and Goldman Sachs are one entity. The employees  all rotate between the three. Figure the rest out for yourself. Don’t believe me? Go look lazy…..  
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Reply to  klausmkl
Since GS is now a bank, it, along with all the other banks is part of the FED. They became a bank so they could get tarp money back in, I think 2008. If you’re suggesting the banks, FED and, treasury all work together in secret. You would have to be willfully blind to not notice.

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