Latest Advance in Chimeras
Researchers in the U.S. and China announced earlier this month that they made embryos that combined human and monkey cells for the first time. So far, these human-monkey chimeras (pronounced ky-meer-uhs) are no more than bundles of budding cells in a lab dish, but the implications are far-reaching, ethics experts say.
In a glimpse of the potential effects, researchers at the University of Rochester in 2014 transplanted human fetal brain cells called astrocytes into young laboratory mice. They discovered that within a year the human cells had taken over the mouse brains. Moreover, standard tests for mouse memory and cognition showed that the altered mice were smarter.
Small Step Towards a Huge Ethical Problem
The Conversation says this is a Small Step Towards a Huge Ethical Problem.
The embryos, which were derived from a macaque and then injected with human stem cells in the lab, were allowed to grow for 20 days before being destroyed.
We have a term for this type of life form: a chimera, named after the fire-breathing monster of Greek mythology that was part lion, part goat and part snake.
This research clearly has the “yuk factor”, meaning it’s likely to provoke moral revulsion. If pigs or monkeys are eventually developed with humanised features, it could cause major public opprobrium, perhaps setting back public acceptance of science significantly
Moral status is the concept of treating life forms according to their interests and capacities. It is already one of the most contested areas of practical ethics. Recent work on “speciesism” makes a compelling case that we have wrongly assigned animals a lower moral status. Despite this, human-nonhuman chimeras will probably be regarded as “lesser” than humans, though by how much it is difficult to determine.
Question of the Day
Is Human-Monkey Embryo Combination OK?
Mish
“We have a term for this type of life form: a chimera, named after the fire-breathing monster of Greek mythology that was part lion, part goat and part snake.”
You saying ‘politician’ wasn’t a good enough term?
I am not very concerned. This was bound to happen (has likely been happening but didn’t catch the media’s attention). Scientists will experiment as will the secret research labs of many governments.
With Crispr, it is easy to make DNA modifications. Research scientists are looking to repair/fix/eliminate many diseases via DNA mods. For example, Sickle Cell with some success, which 60 Minutes and others have done stories on.
It is inevitable that the wealthy will get first crack at what is called “designer children” and will take that opportunity, regardless of any rules against doing so. There will always be rouge actors that will provide the services if you have the money, NK for instance. Suggest reading the famous SF novel/series “Beggars in Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggars_in_Spain)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggars_in_Spain)
As to using animals for organ replacement, this would be a relatively short-term event. Much work is being done on growing replacement organs on a scaffold that would not have the problem of rejection. Then there is the stem cell research that may be able to cause the human body to replace damage organs on its own. A related SF book is “The Reefs of Space” which is a part of the Starchild tribology. In these books the Earth is ruled by a brutal dictatorship and relatedly they have an island that criminals are sent to where their body parts are harvested over time for the benefit of the wealthy. Sounds plausible. no?
Or Larry Niven with the Organ Banks where too many speeding tickets gets you a death sentence and your organs harvested. SF writers foresaw these problems in the 50’s and explored the implications thoroughly.
Speaking of the magic of Crispr – DNA modification now easier and more controlled than ever!
A New CRISPR Tool Flips Genes On and Off Like a Light Switch
Shelly Fan
Apr 27, 2021
Get your stinking paws off me you damn dirty ape!
What do you call someone who doesn’t like simians?
Simienemy?
Not bad!
Events are in the driver’s seat. Or said another way: we are passengers in a car driven by a devil with his hair on fire, cackling loudly. I’m not sure where we’re going, but for now, I’m feeling comfortable in this handbasket.
“Researchers … transplanted human fetal brain cells called astrocytes into young laboratory mice…”
The “banality of evil” on full display.
Trust the science.
Trust the science… wear two masks!
Yes, even outdoors with social distancing after being fully vaccinated.
Soldiers with the muscular strength of chimpanzees will be forthcoming.
Yes, that the future monkey hybrid overlords will be far smarter and faster than me
And they said Planet of the Apes was fiction…
I wish to declare publicly that I, for one, welcome our Monkey Hybrid Overlords!
OT…just wanted to share this interview with James Carville. He gets many of the real problems with the Democratic Party……
He seems to say that the problem is image and that good marketing will overcome that.
Eddie, I read some of articles in the Pro Commerce Blog and I thank you for pointing me there.
The Revolution and Counter-revolution article was interesting to me on it’s take of woke vs hippy. I had recently read Abby Hoffman’s biography written by his brother after his death and I agree with his evaluation of him and his group. Thanks again.
Yes, Carville mostly thinks about winning. I think as far as winning elections, the marketing part is spot on…..but not so much in terms of actually governing. But he made some good points.
Glad you enjoyed Mike’s blog. He is a big picture guy who always has interesting things to say….although I disagree with him on Trump. As a young banker Mike was the guy who more or less invented Mastercard….and he gave away (to charity) most of the money that Stewart Brand and his bunch of hippies made off the Last Whole Earth Catalog. He has a very interesting CV.
He did a lot for SF, much of which is not widely appreciated anymore. His brother does what I do, before retirement anyway, as did his grandfather.
I’ve always enjoyed listening to Carville speak. Fun and funny guy. Met him and his wife Mary back in ’94. Nice folk.
Not concerned. At some point some animals will evolve to become human-like species anyway. We evolved from them and are just at a different point in time in our evolution. For those that are concerned, I would say get out more and see the world. Humans haven’t exactly been great for the planet. Maybe some other smarter species could do better.
Scientists have developed transgenic mice where they have added a gene present in humans that cause the embryonic brain to grow and to fold making the mouse much more intelligent. The scientists use them to study what makes intelligence. I for one do not want to see highly intelligent rodents escaping out into the wild. First of all since they breed like rats they will take over the dumb rodents and soon become predominate. Secondly they know that humans have waged a war of extermination against their kind as well as having conducted absolutely terrible experiments on them. They would conclude that no peace is possible with humans and plan and act accordingly. We could be living on borrowed time with the danger coming from a totally unexpected source.
Scientists Create Smart Mouse — Addition Of Single Gene Improves Learning And Memory — ScienceDaily
…intelligent rats… hahaha ….I am sure you know that Belgium has some internationally famous comic writers Tintin, Spirou, the Smurfs, Lucky Luke, Bob et Bobette etc…. but there were also the amazing “Nero’s adventures” written by Marc Sleen, Nero being a ordinary flemish guy, winding up in crazy situations all of the time, your comment reminded me of the album ‘Het Rattenkasteel’ (Rat’s Castle), with indeed intelligent rats trying to take over power…hilarious!….written in 1948 !
I noticed my electric bill has mysteriously risen lately. I suspect intelligent rats underground are tapping into my line. I also suspect that they use my internet to visit dubious sites while I am asleep.
More likely your neighbor has plugged into your power line and is mining crypto 🙂
Aiiii! Intelligent rats mining crypto? No wonder crypto is ballistic. There are billions of rats buying them!
Put a million rats at a million typewriters for a million years and they will eventually produce a Shakespeare sonnet.
“Put a million rats at a million typewriters for a million years and they will eventually produce a Shakespeare sonnet.”
Thanks to the internet (humans typing on websites everywhere) we know this is not true 😉
Belgium is well know for their comics and its humourists. Raymond Devos was a genius at comedy.
Don t know R Devos, flemish people don t have affinity with french speaking humourists….We are a weird country, I am afraid …
Fritz Leiber’s Fafhard and the Grey Mouser stories from the 40’s and ’50s have a witty and hilarious tale where rats have a civilization below the decadently wonderful city of Lankhmar. Seriously with CGI today those tales would make great movies or series.
“If people breed like rats – if they have the maximum number of children they physically can with no restraint – they and their children will be forced to live and die like rats”
We could become like the Naked Mole Rats who live underground, are vegetarian and are highly matriarchal where the workers are sterile males serving the females. Looking at how things are going in the world I would say that’s our future.
Yikes! I have discovered that there is a mouse controlling my cursor.
Not too worried about rodents but watch out if we make super ants! Ants are incredibly strong and probably, amoral. Humans will make nice feed for their lavre.
What if the rats and the ant make an alliance to destroys us? We are cooked I tell you!
I have no such worries, I know cultures that breed like rabbits, even though the planet is a cesspool, and running out of space. Intelligent rats could be an improvement.
Pinkie and the Brain —
“Wat do you want to do tomorrow night, Brain?”
“The same thing we do every night, Pinkie…Try to take over the world!!”
Science is amoral by nature and you can always find a scientist who will do immoral deeds because they are blinded by their need to discover. If something is found possible eventually it will be used. We cannot expect scientists to police themselves just as we cannot expect ourselves to police ourselves. The only thing we can do is to pass laws that are hopefully moral and set up a good enforcement system and cross our fingers that we can catch the bad ones before they do too much damage..
I agree. Witness COVID, for which there is some evidence it came from a lab.
But regardless of whether COVID came from a lab, the “gain-of-function” research is something that has been done in the past. And this sort of research could lead to something like COVID or worse.
Yet, I believe this research is occurring mostly as a result of government support. So, in theory, the 200 governments in the world should be able to control it. But on the other hand, all it takes is one wealthy government to support it.
Agreed.
Awful, like I already expressed ….Now off topic , but not less awful; Jim Cramer’s ads popping up here, loving Crypto (and Tesla of course)…..Makes me wonder, are those guys being paid to influence fools and the markets in general, or what ?
Yes.
Yes they have algorithms that detect fools and send them ads.
How would they know I am a fool ?? …. after all I am just a inconspicuous fool, not a pedantic one…right ?
You left yourself open and I just couldn’t resist. I hope you can find it in your circulatory pump to forgive me.
Is that a sneaky plug to say that you’re supporting this site by deliberately not installing an add blocker? 🙂
At least he appears normal somewhat. If he had been getting ads for Japanese Octopus sex then I would have been worried about him.
Well we eat octopus so it’s only normal that they eat us.
I had to google it.
I have a friend who is a Japanese woodblock artist..I’m going to have to ask her if she knows about this. 🙂
When I think of octopus I think of ceviche. It makes a great addition to ceviche if it’s fresh. We used to get it in Mexico.
My wife saw that recent octopus documentary movie, and now I might never be allowed to eat it again, dunno.
I love the stuff and have eaten it in all forms. My wife is from the seacoast of Brittany and they eat anything that swims in the sea and anything that can crawl up out of the water. We hit a milestone. Who would have thought that Mish’s blog would contain an image of an octopus having sex with a Japanese woman.
I hope I’m not in trouble. I didn’t think about that until after I posted the print.
I hope Mike thinks it has redeeming social value. He’s an artist himself. I hope he understands that I didn’t intend to appeal to anyone’s prurient interests. 🙂
Those 19th century woodblock prints were a big influence on some of the Impressionists, like Toulouse Lautrec .
Octopus or squid?
Evil knows no bounds. +++
If they’re docile, I expect something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Lost_C%27Mell.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Lost_C'Mell.
If they’re not, I expect something like the pigoons from this book:
The Island of Dr. Moreau is real.
Back to the house of pain!
First, I even question the premise that it would be beneficial to the human population to be able to grow unlimited “replacement” organs for transplant in the first place. That’s one problem.
Then you have the other problem, of creating some animal population with an artificially enhanced intellectual capacity, but no place to “fit in” in any existing system that exists. What would “smart monkeys” do? Sit around and happily wait to have their organs harvested so old humans can get new ones? Forget the “yuk factor”…it’s simply morally reprehensible.
I’m pretty sure if most species of animal on the planet right now had any idea about the Big Picture, they’s find it enormously depressing at best, and at worst it might make them hate humans and want to see us all wiped off the planet.
Human mythology has these stories that apply here. One is the the story of The Fall, where Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Good and Evil and come to realize that they’re naked and so forth. This is a pretty clear analogy. It is an explanation of what happened to our ancestors when we began to reach some intellectual milestone that allowed us to “see” the future and the past, and ourselves as separate from our environment.
In medicine we have the Hippocratic oath….which stated simply says “First, do no harm.” It isn’t at all clear to me that building genetic hybrid monsters, because we can, is not a violation of that oath.
I have dogs…that I love….They are, in a very real sense, innocents, who always live in the moment and have no concept of the things that worry humans…..I don’t think I have the right to change that, now matter how it might benefit me. It strikes me a profoundly wrong.
Not sure, but you might have heard this story about the development of the atomic bomb,
Oppenheimer got all the nuclear physicists in the country together in a secret meeting to discuss whether they should propose the bomb to the government. The grand old man of nuclear physics Neils Bohr, was asked if he had any problem with it.
He said no, because frankly, at that time it seemed impossible from a strictly technical standpoint. Only minute amounts of fissile material had ever been made. How could they possibly get enough to make a bomb? He wasn’t worried about it, because he thought it couldn’t happen.
We know how that worked out.
Oppenheimer, who was a great patriot, ended up being hung out to dry by the government he worked for, accused of being a communist because he became more circumspect about nukes in the post war years…and he committed suicide at his house on the beach down in St. John.. A cautionary tale.
If Bohr had said not to go forward, the US probably would not have had a nuke program at all….and since everybody else who got the tech got it from us by hook or by crook, now we have a planet with a lot of aging fast breeder reactors that can melt down in a power failure…..and we still have plenty of those.Not to mention enough bombs to kill the entire population of the planet.
Scientists are mostly very smart people….who should perhaps think about the potential CONSEQUENCES of their research.
…because enough will never be enough as long as money can be made in the process! That s how the Sapiens Ape has managed to destroy 3/4 of the eco system in a matter of years and will just continue on this path to self destruction… for money… the pandemic being one example, a rather simplistic one…we ain’t seen nothing yet I am afraid…
Yes. This is an example where government and international action would be very useful. Why would anyone do this? Creating a species that is sentient but will not be treated as such is immoral. Maybe we will be our own undoing, like Icarus flying too close to the sun.
This is inevitable. I’m not concerned right now. Or likely in my lifetime. But, eventually some country will make an army out of genetically engineered organisms. Then it’s time to worry,
My first thought is WHY? What benefit do we derive from this research? It won’t be long before these embryos are implanted in some poor macaque until one takes hold, then what? The ethical issues are huge and with no obvious justification.
It’s just a first step on a long road to creating a monkey with five asses.
IMHO this all about organ harvesting some people want to live forever.
Not sure I need a monkey with five asses, but a chicken with 8 legs and a cow that is 100% ribeye would be pretty nice.
Just what we need; More politicians!
This is less astonishing than a society that can’t tell whether someone is a boy or a girl.