Smokestack Chasing, Would You Move to Tulsa OK or Greensburg IN?

Image courtesy of MakeMyMove

In a new version of “smokestack chasing”, 71 Cities and Towns Are Paying Tech Workers to Abandon Silicon Valley. And it’s working says the Wall Street Journal.

Back in October there were at least 24 such programs in the U.S. Today there are 71, according to the Indianapolis-based company MakeMyMove, which is contracted by cities and towns to set up such programs.

Because these programs specifically target remote workers who have high wages, a disproportionate share of those who are taking advantage of them work in tech—and especially for big tech companies. Companies whose employees have participated in one remote worker incentive program in Tulsa, Okla., include Adobe, Airbnb, Amazon, AMZN, Apple, AAPL, Dell, Facebook parent Meta Platforms, Google, IBM, Microsoft, Lyft, Netflix, Oracle and Siemens, according to a spokeswoman for the organization.

Some of those companies are perfectly happy with this turn of events. In April, Airbnb said nearly all of its employees could work anywhere they liked, and retain their full salaries. It’s even promoting its product as a way for remote workers to find temporary housing, says a spokeswoman for the company.

Tulsa Remote, the biggest of these programs by the number of people it has brought in, has a distinct advantage over most: It’s funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation, a philanthropic organization based in and focused on Tulsa, which spent $181 million on a variety of initiatives in 2020 alone. Almost all of America’s comparable programs must be paid out of local economic-development budgets.

By the end of 2021, Tulsa Remote had brought 1,360 people to the city. By the end of 2022, the total could be more than 2,400.

“This is the new version of smokestack chasing,” says Roy Bahat, head of the Bloomberg Beta venture-capital firm and a former economic-development official for New York City. “Smokestack chasing” refers to local governments’ bidding against one another to try to attract a factory, office or some other kind of infrastructure that will create jobs. “It’s like what Ohio did when it attracted a microchip factory,” he adds, referring to the more than $2 billion in incentives the state promised Intel to convince the company to locate its factory in the state.

Work Incentives in Tulsa

The Economic Innovation Group says Remote Work Incentive is Responding to Local Challenges and Spurring Economic Growth in Tulsa, OK

Tulsa Remote, one of the nation’s first and largest remote worker relocation initiatives, has brought more than 1,200 remote workers to the city since 2018 by offering a $10,000 grant and additional support services to eligible workers who move to Tulsa to live and work remotely from there for at least one year.

Early evidence suggests Tulsa Remote is generating real economic impact locally.

Tulsa Remote is estimated to…

Add $62.0 million in new local earnings in 2021—$51.3 million directly attributable to relocated remote workers and $10.7 million from the employment boost generated in the local economy.

Support approximately 592 jobs in 2021—394 jobs directly attributable to relocated remote workers and approximately 198 newly created full-time equivalent jobs based in Tulsa.

On its current growth trajectory, in 2025, the Tulsa Remote program is estimated to…

Add approximately $500 million in new local earnings.

Support upwards of 5,000 high-impact jobs, including thousands of relocated remote workers and at least 1,500 newly created full-time equivalent local jobs.

In attracting 1,200 remote workers, Tulsa Remote added another 592 jobs that it attributes to the program. 

MakeMyMove

MakeMyMove says Do What You Love, From a Place That You Love

Airbnb Welcomes the Move

On April 28, Airbnb co-founder and CEO Brian Chesky sent an email to employees around the globe welcoming them to work anywhere

Team,

Two years ago, the world was turned upside down. Our offices closed and we found ourselves working from our bedrooms, basements, and home offices. Despite everything, we had the most productive two-year period in our history. While it’s been an incredible two years for Airbnb, I know it’s been hard on many of you.

Today, we’re turning the page to the start of a new chapter. I’m excited to share our design for where and how we’ll work together going forward.

We started this process by asking a simple question—where is the world going?

The answer is obvious—the world is becoming more flexible about where people can work. We see this in our own business. We wouldn’t have recovered so quickly from the pandemic had it not been for millions of people working from Airbnbs. During the second half of 2021, 20% of our nights booked were for stays of longer than a month, and half were for stays of longer than a week.

Two decades ago, Silicon Valley startups popularized the idea of open floor plans and on-site perks, which were soon adopted by companies all around the world. Similarly, today’s startups have embraced remote work and flexibility, and I think this will become the predominant way that we all work 10 years from now. This is where the world is going.

We then asked, what are we solving for?

We want to hire and retain the best people in the world (like you). If we limited our talent pool to a commuting radius around our offices, we would be at a significant disadvantage. The best people live everywhere, not concentrated in one area. And by recruiting from a diverse set of communities, we will become a more diverse company.

Now, I understand the anxiety of not seeing people in an office—how do you know if your employees are doing their jobs when you can’t see them? For me, it’s simple: I trust you, and flexibility only works when you trust the people on your team. You’ve shown how much you can accomplish remotely. In the last two years, we navigated the pandemic, rebuilt the company from the ground up, went public, upgraded our entire service, and reported record earnings, all while working remotely. It’s clear that flexibility works for Airbnb.

Anywhere Means Anywhere

The memo also said “You can move anywhere in the country you work in and your compensation won’t change. Starting in September, you can live and work in over 170 countries for up to 90 days a year in each location.”

Open floor plans in offices have morphed into no floor plans and work anywhere.

The Appeal 

The Tulsa metro population is over 780,000. I can see that. But Greensburg, Indiana, population 11,221? 

One Amazon engineer moved to Greensburg. The WSJ noted that he got $5,000 from the city, a year of free office space, gym membership and babysitting for his children, ages 1 and 3.

In general, work anywhere and incentive programs would appeal to several classes of people. 

  • Anyone paying exorbitant rents for small apartments in California.
  • Couples with kids or those wanting to start a family and are looking for a safer place or better schools
  • Those looking to move around and sample the world. Airbnb is particularly flexible in this regard.
  • Those looking for more affordable housing
  • Those looking to get away from it all. For some, small towns offer a better way of life. Others might want to be close to fishing, biking or other outdoor activities, 

Companies that insist workers return to the office will find many employees increasingly resistant. 

It’s possible a recession changes that. But demographics are also on play.

 Employment Levels in Retirement Age Groups

Age 60+ Employment

  • In 2022: 22.09 Million
  • In 2008: 13.46 Million
  • In 1999: 8.22 Million
  • In 1981: 7.21 Million

There are over 22 million people age 60 or over who are still working. We have never seen anything like this before, so don’t expect prior recessions to be a model for this one.

Why I Expect a Minimal Rise in Unemployment This Recession

Companies will struggle to fill positions of those retiring. That’s just one of the reasons Why I Expect a Minimal Rise in Unemployment This Recession

Covid permanently changed the office model. More accurately, covid dramatically accelerated work-at-home trends that were already happening.

Either way, things are not going back where there were. 

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
I strongly endorse Las Vegas, Nevada, US.
The city has a wide variety of indoor activities — day or night.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
For those that have access to South Park, season 25, episode 3 has a pretty hilarious take on this trend.
Call_Me
Call_Me
1 year ago
“One Amazon engineer moved to Greensburg. The WSJ noted that he got
$5,000 from the city, a year of free office space, gym membership and
babysitting for his children, ages 1 and 3.”
Is this the small-town equivalent of trying to bring an Amazon warehouse to a large city by offering incentives?
One wonders how such a program is sold to the locals, as that seems to be a lot of “free” stuff to hand to someone with no attachment to the area and is presumably much more well-off than most of them.
Call_Me_Al
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Call_Me
If he’ll move there for 5k, he’ll move to the next place that offers it.
Anon1970
Anon1970
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
The babysitting (full time childcare?) is likely worth much more than the cash bonus.
Housing in the SF Bay Area is very expensive, especially in suburbs with a decent public school system.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Anon1970
I’d be a little leery of free child care… especially in the Bible Belt.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
You’d prefer a California trans molester.
Dr_Novaxx
Dr_Novaxx
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Yeah that’s a good point Zardoz. You wouldn’t want your children to turn out to be God-fearing, and take the Bible seriously. That might cause them to honor their mother & father — and then they wouldn’t make very good hell-raisers.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr_Novaxx
I was more worried about them getting diddled by Rev. Badtouch.
Call_Me
Call_Me
1 year ago
Reply to  Anon1970
That was my first thought, but after a second reading I feel it implies temporary, incidental child care (babysitting for an evening) instead of full-time daycare. Still not a trivial expense, but some random coder must really be worth it to this small city. I wonder if there will be increased demands next year (as in professional sports).
Call_Me_Al
Call_Me
Call_Me
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Exactly – would be foolish not to!
Given his employer, it would be safe to infer he uses Prime and won’t be spending most of his paycheck in town. Really fail to see the end game, but not only was the incentive scheme posed, it was also approved, so there must be some people who are able to see the payoff.
Call_Me_Al
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
1 year ago
Long term, telepresence robots will enable those with geographic-based jobs to live anywhere. Think gardeners, roofers, and plumbers, for instance. This transition from a geographic world to an information world will look like the industrial revolution transition from farm to city. We’re already seeing the impact on the meaning and importance of national borders – that is, the edges of entities built to protect geographic (AKA “farm”) ownership. And ideas of legality: Behavior that was OK in the sticks wasn’t OK in the city. (And vice versa?) Ditto, the info world introduces geo-based people a lot of changed restrictions on behavior. Simple example: Is it OK to listen to a “pirated” copy of music?
Yeah, moving around inside the States will be important, but don’t forget the odd wrinkle:
1) It’s international. If you can arbitrarily live in Walla Walla, you can live in Laos, or places in between. If you live in Borneo, but were born in Latvia, and raised in Tanzania, who plays the role of protecting you?
2) This geo->info transition is and will not be error free. Early farm->city movement was a real mess, too.
3) Don’t forget this newly big demographic group of old people are affected by where their grand kids live.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
Just try to find hammer swingers who work “remotely.” The trans-geographic uber liberal nutcases who move to the sticks find out right quick just what the limits of cyber-b.s. really are. I speak from direct, personal, recent, current experience. Country living is not city living.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
hammer swingers were replaced by nail guns. i’ve known men who built houses without electric. all hand saws. they are mostly dead and buried. life in the sticks is really not too different from city life in the rich world, like pax dumbf**kistan. i lived all over. if country life was so tough, they’d not all weigh the same as cows. they ain’t lean and mean like the old days. you are living in a fantasy world.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
But they got guns… this means they’re tough as Rambo!
Mike 2112
Mike 2112
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Been out of power many times for multiple days in the cold Hudson Valley during winter.
It’s not fun but with a generator and wood stove we get by.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
For a while we had an iPad on a stick and wheels roaming around the office so people in the Korean office could have telepresence. It kept ending up in bizarre places because of some smartass and his twisted sense of humor. It got 86ed when they found it in the ladies room.
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
If ES weekly drop to Feb 2020 high area, to 3,350 – 3,400 area, to close Nov 2/9 2020 gap, it will give a headbutt to JP.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
You partially covered but did not really name a category who what been doing this for a decade, avant la lettre, prior to Covid, etc.
Singles looking to benefit from an American salary in low cost countries where they can simply stay in a pension or hotel, sock away money, have all the luxuries you want, travel, and generally hang out the big guy/girl, the world at your finger tips.
Webej
Webej
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
By the way, the next phase for this kind of highly paid remote work is wage arbitrage and paying people from the 3rd world much less for delivering the same work packages.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
Been tried since 2000, hasn’t really worked that well. I’m not quite sure why not. Language barrier is my best guess. All major programming languages are based on English
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
It’s not the programming skills. It’s the communication skills that are the problem. When you can’t speak English or don’t speak it very well it makes it all but impossible to properly complete complex projects when the instructions are in English.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
The telecom equipment company on whose board I served did just fine with Indian engineers. The self-entitled California techno-geeks won’t know what hit ’em. That light off yonder ain’t the light at the end of the tunnel. It’s a train.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
They can do one thing: transport layer. That is a well settled and tiny fraction of what ‘tech’ is.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
They did a lot more than that, at one-third the comp of California engineers. Who, I might add, were insufferable as opposed to the ones we used who worked hard and very smart. We did well.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Should move to India then. You seem to not hate those folks and much as you hate Americans.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Californians are not Americans. I am on the side of every earthquake, every drought, every power failure, every forest fire, and every criminal THERE. Come to where I live, and it’s target practice. By the way, what high-tech there is in the western suburbs of Portland is full of H1B workers who aren’t snotty, lazy, and California entitled. Of course, they’re Asian, so you and your kind hate them because they work hard and succeed.
California is well on its way to becoming a Third World country. Highest poverty rate in America when the cost of living is included. In the end, you “progressives” couldn’t possibly care less about anyone but your smug, arrogant, worthless, white privileged, racist, terminally hypocritical and stupid, oblivious selves. No sympathy whatsoever.
effendi
effendi
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Back in 2020 I was at my other home (Cairo), met plenty of people with excellent English, asked one guy (petroleum engineer, late 20s, perfect English) what his monthly salary was, 600USD. Why would any oil company open a new refinery in the US (or try to when approval takes years and can be vetoed at any time) when countries like Egypt can do it in half the time at half the cost and then staff it with guys like that earning a fraction of what similar people earn in the West?
That guy or many others I met would have no problems being a remote worker, as more and more companies realise the potential of the few percent (a few percent of a billion is still tens of millions to take jobs) of third world capable of doing what their western equivalents are doing then a lot of those westerners might find they will need to drop their salary to match that 600/month guy or find themselves jobless. Can you live on 600/month in Indiana?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
It’s a question of the work ethic of the culture.
I have seen many work through language issues.
Synergy
Synergy
1 year ago
Reply to  Webej
How well did that work out for jobs outsourced to Russia? They can outsource to people in low cost of living areas within the US, have a better english speaking employee and pay less.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
1 year ago
I’ve been to Tulsa a few times but not Greensburg.
I’m personally not interested in moving to Tulsa but definitely some people are and would fit into a place like that. It’s obviously cheap to live but there isn’t as much to do as you think especially if you are coming from a big city and like the big city life or if you are from the West coast and like the mountains etc.
I’d move to small town Texas like Wichita Falls where the misses family is from before I’d move to Tulsa. Essentially the same place geographically and weather wise.
Esclaro
Esclaro
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
We lived in Bartlesville for several years and Tulsa has a lot going on. Museums, a symphony and a ballet company among other things.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Esclaro
I’ve never been in Bartlesville, but I-44 between Missouri and OK City is one of the best-kept scenic secrets in the entire United States. I drove through there 40 years ago, expecting it to be grim and being pleasantly shocked by the beauty. Not only that, but along an Interstate? Steinbeck wasn’t wrong when he wrote, in Travels With Charley, that the Interstates made it possible to drive 3,000 miles without seeing a thing. But there are some shining exceptions, and I-44 NE of OK City is one of ’em. Is Bartlesville still an oil & gas town?
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Funny. Considering how much people here complain about the coming catastrophes in the US, I would have expected a few people to talk about venturing outside the US to live and work remotely. But nada. Perhaps the US of A isn’t so bad after all.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Yeah its kind of like after every election when people on the losing side claim they are going to move to Canada or elsewhere. Never happens, at least in any meaningful way.
It’s actually harder to immigrate to another country than you think especially for working class people. If you are rich it’s no problem. So working remote from Canada or other places isn’t really feasible because most of those countries won’t readily take you.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
It’s almost always the liberals who yammer about moving to Canada. Not that they’re racists or anything, but what really scares ’em off is the taxes up there. Neil Young moved to the U.S. to get away from Canuckistan’s taxes.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Moving to another country is usually no problem as long as you bring stuff with you.
Five million dollars would be a good start.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I’m trying to figure out how to get into Canada, but they don’t seem to get that I’m bringing a job with me. Want me to have a job there.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Not even Canada wants Californians. LOL
Robbyrob
Robbyrob
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Canada? Health care groups call on premiers to make Canada’s collapsing health system their top priority link to cma.ca
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbyrob

I’d be in the border, could use my job insurance in the us if need be.

Anon1970
Anon1970
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Canada reported taking in over 400,000 legal immigrants in 2021, the highest on record. The last time the country took in over 400,000 people was in 1913 when the population was much smaller.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Anon1970

They take a lot of people for humanitarian reasons. Will be interesting to see if they assimilate, or rope off their own little areas and threaten outsiders like our friend Shooty McBangBang.

JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
In Portland, 5% of the population is black, but 48% of the shooters are black. Kinda like in Califuc*youstan. Something tells me you avoid Oakland. LOL
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Aww look! He knows his name. Good boy, Shooty!
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Zardoz, you may be of the wrong colour, or perhaps you speak only English or French?
jhrodd
jhrodd
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
My niece and her husband cashed out of the Bay Area and built a house in Baja, worked remotely through the covid years but now retired at 50 years old. It’s somewhat difficult with no address, thus no mail or package delivery. Water is trucked in but property taxes are about $500/year…
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  jhrodd
The Maldives had a push on to attract remote workers during the pandemic. Haven’t seen if they are still promoting themselves that way. Lots of nice places to live all over the world if you can work remotely.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Aren’t they supposed to be underwater soon from global warming. Might not be a great place to relocate if you have to flee in a decade or so from rising sea levels 🙂
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
That’s why you just rent for a few years; and then move to another nice location. Lots of nice places. Take advantage of them before they are gone.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
as one ages to old age, proximity to hospitals and NOT having to drive ever, is the best and safest way to get really old. unless one has a built in family who can administer ER level care. driving is probably the most dangerous thing rich world folks do.
TLinFL
TLinFL
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
That’s an important consideration. Also knowing that those hospitals are not owned by private equity.
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
You couldn’t pay me enough to live in either of those locations!
JimK
JimK
1 year ago
For remote work that can be done from anywhere, how long before Airbnb, etc, shift all hiring to India and other low wage countries where you can get 3 or 4 remote workers for the price of one USA employee… even one working in Tulsa?
It happened for thousands of phone based customer support jobs over a decade ago. I’m not sure all tech workers in this Silicon Valley diaspora have fully thought this through.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  JimK
That’s the fun part. All these techies with the 6-figure incomes think this will liberate them. In some ways it will, until the other shoe drops. So there you are, in East Nowhere, Nebraska, living like a king on your tech salary. Suddenly, you’re canned. Then what?
Jojo
Jojo
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Find another remote job.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Been hearing that for over 20 years. Hasn’t happened yet. We’re special, and you ain’t.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
So you’re a California techno puke, I see. Please stay there. America is too dangerous for you. You know, all them guns? LOL
Synergy
Synergy
1 year ago
Reply to  JimK
Worked out real well for jobs outsources to Russia. China likely next on tap. India getting friendly with benefits from Russia…
Globalization is over.
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
In terms of recreation, St. George UT is perfect for me. But it is expensive. For someone from SF or NY it would not seem so though. About 87,000 here with 127,000 in the county. Lots of services, but poor night life and restaurants.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
A function of age. When you’re in your 20s and 30s, “night life and restaurants” are biggies. That begins to change in your 40s. Besides, the big cities with “nightlife and restaurants” come with crime and mayhem and crazy “leaders.” We lived in Seattle for a long time, and spent a lot of time in Portland. Not now. Both of those cities are out of control.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
all depends. last time i looked around the globe, plenty of 40s and 60s live in big cities. it’s a big world with 8 billion stories in the naked city. everyone is different. no formula. some people would kill themselves in bumf*** amerika, some would kill themselves in NYC or london or tokyo. all the types with formulas for others is silly and arrogant and ignorant.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish

St George is really nice. I’d live there.

JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Just wait until you learn what they think of Californians. Oh, and in that neck of the woods they are armed to the teeth. 99.99% concealed. They can always figure out if someone’s a Californian, but you’ll never see ’em coming. Better stay in Sillycon Valley. LOL
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
You’re really spun up today. Wife ignoring your nonsense?
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
The other half is a better shot than me. That’s the short story. You should stay in Califuc*youstan. Think the men are dangerous? Better look out for five days a month. LOL
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
It all depends on your age. If you are a young professional programmer the big city is a good place. Lots of things to do, people to meet and a deep job market to started in. Later on if you have found the love of your life the suburbs are good for space and schools. After the kids have gone and the mortgage paid off you are probably in your peak earnings so you have more choices professionally and geographically. When you retire you have to look at distances from good health care so not too far from a good-sized city. In all the attractiveness of the big city wears out unless you are making enough to truly enjoy it and that takes a hell of a lot. Smaller to medium-sized cities are growing again. The West has a lot of room but the cities are far apart so the housing market is quickly saturated. The Midwest and the South have the space and the density of population in small towns and villages and they can absorb the newcomers without causing undue housing cost rises. California consists of two megacities with little of what Easterners would call countryside. The state is big but with few areas suitable for building. Great weather and scenery but it is overpopulated.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Don’t need to network anymore. If you get in LinkedIn, recruiters come to you.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
The best opportunities still come by in-person networking and those jobs never get to Linkedin.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
There are important issues lurking in this topic. The issues have to deal with the ‘kind’ of business and essential employee skills . Writing code takes skills different to booking AirBnBs, or making jet engines. BTW, in my biased experience, the most valuable employees are the innovators–in whatever industry/field. They are the future. They don’t start out in the east, or the west, or the north, or the south. They settle where their needs are best met, and they relocate when their needs are not met.
Society has become increasingly mobile with respect to location, more so in the few years. In the past, companies focused location decisions mostly on past history, market access, and cost (including everything from infrastructure, to housing cost, to gov’t subsidies). Then, for a while, nothing was more important than lifestyle–California and the sunny south. The outcome–as adverse consequences–is reflected in some of the comments below mine.
IMHO, the important location driver for my target employee group is attitudinal–the whole gamut from politics to sexuality. The winners will not be ultra-conservative or ultra-progressive communities–they are among the most-closed-minded at all.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
The “progressives” are ruining every city they control. No wonder people are leaving those places.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
YOU’VE been divided and conquered with lines like that. D v R. etc…………….turn off the idiot box and get out of the house. walk around the empire.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Bad bot. That response had nothing to do with what it was responding to.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
You’re staying in California, we hope. Trust me, it’s scary in America. We are armed to the teeth out here. LOL
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
That’s not entirely true.
We just want our fair share of what he’s got.
dtj
dtj
1 year ago
Tulsa is one of the places I’m considering retiring to after ruling out Sioux Falls because it’s gotten too expensive with all the new people moving in. Also thinking of Tennessee.
I would never live in an exurb again after trying it several years ago. I never felt more isolated in my life. 45 minute drive to anything. Hour and a half drive to nearest large city. People less friendly than in that large city. I’d rather buy a place on the edge of a big town than way out in the middle of nowhere.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  dtj
Here places to look at:
– Lawrence, KS
– Great Falls, MT if you can stand the winters
– Logan, UT
– Moscow, ID
– Baker City, OR
– LaCrosse, WI
– Eau Claire, WI
– Sturgeon Bay, WI
– Rapid City, SD
– Cody, WY
– Walla Walla, WA
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I am familiar with all those Wisconsin cities and would agree.
Marquette, Michigan comes to mind and even more so Traverse City, Michigan.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
Never been to Marquette or Traverse City, but have heard good things. The issue with WI is sky-high property taxes, at least in the Milwaukee area. It’s a big reason why houses are cheaper there. People think they’re getting a bargain until they look at the mill rate, if they bother.

All over this country, there has been a dramatic decline in the quality of life in the big cities. The “progressives” just hate safety and tranquility. Every big city on the West Coast is sinking into mayhem. So are Denver, Vegas, Phoenix, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Des Moines, Milwaukee, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, D.C. … it goes on and on.

jhrodd
jhrodd
1 year ago
Reply to  Mish
Marquette is nice but if you really have to freeze your nuts off in the Winter I’d go with Duluth, MN there’s just something magical about Duluth and the North Shore is a real trip back in time.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  jhrodd
I’ve been in Duluth twice. Old mining town that’s been fixed up. Really liked it, but I’m not sure I could take the winters. Same for Great Falls, MT, which is also a nice town, but the winters are colder than whale sh*t on the bottom of the Arctic Ocean.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
maine and new england stuck in time, in a good way. since earie canal built, they stopped growing…….. like going back 200 years compared to midwest, south, or far west.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Very much depends on where you are in those places.
jhrodd
jhrodd
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
30 below zero isn’t so bad as long as you don’t breathe through your nose, or your mouth for that matter.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  jhrodd
Not the best if you are driving a diesel truck.
ajc1970
ajc1970
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
As an Oregonian who lives near the Washington border, I don’t know how any of our cities merit recognition on a list of places to consider moving.
Along with California, the West Coast states are lost
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  ajc1970
Baker City is a vastly underappreciated gem, but yeah, the state income taxes are reason not to move anywhere in Oregon. Same would go for Ashland, but the taxes. We live on the WA side of the river, which means no income taxes and hop across to OR to evade sales tax.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  ajc1970

The Oregon coast is amazing, but the towns are full of tweakers and junkies. It’s sad.

JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Then you’ll just have to stay in California, which is where the zombies came from.
Robbyrob
Robbyrob
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
agree Oregon (west) is a homeless/junkie/displaced/vagabond/unhoused nightmare
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbyrob
There are many problems in those towns, but no one from Califuc*youstan should EVER get on any kind of high horse.
jhrodd
jhrodd
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I like Cody, WY and Baker City although there’s not much to see there. The best thing about WI is that it’s not Illinois.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  jhrodd
Fair point about Baker City. Small town (only about 2,500 people), but enough of the gold mining money stuck around, so the town has great bones and better restaurants than you’d expect in that location. Great place to live, but yeah, the scenery (Wallowas, or Steens and vicinity) are pretty long drives. True about WI, but it’s no longer the squeaky clean government state like it used to be. Chicago’s corruption has spread northward.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Eastern Oregon is another American Secret. I used to be a prolific contributor to a travel site until they became politically correct. I’d try to convince people to depart from what I called The Tyranny of the National Parks. Slow down and quit rushing from Olympic to Yosemite to the Grand Canyon to Crater Lake to Glacier to Yellowstone. Take your foot off the gas pedal, and adjust. I eventually gave up, and just as well. I’ve been all over the joint, and it doesn’t get a lot better than the places made famous by no one.
The following comes from a book I picked up along the way, and it’s true.
———-
“Out
here the atmosphere is so clear one can stand outside at night, reach
up, and almost touch the stars. The Milky Way carves an arc across
the heavens like a white sash. The sun shines at least three hundred
days a year. It gets hot in the summer and well below zero in the
winter. Almost without fail in the summer, a cool breeze arrives in
the early afternoon, and in winter the humidity is so low that even
below-zero temperatures are easily tolerated. …
“This
can be a lonesome country, eerily silent at times, especially at
night. When coyotes out there in the sagebrush start howling at the
moon, checking in and discussing the night’s activities with their
pals, they are only making plans to locate something to eat. You
might hear an owl up in one of the trees, his big eyes peeled for a
mouse for breakfast, telling everyone about it with his mournful
call. In the quiet of the night, howling coyotes and that sudden
mournful call of the owl can send a chill up the back of the
uninitiated youngster.
“Sometimes
the silence can be there in the daylight, too. And that is good. If
it is very quiet, you will hear the song of the meadowlark sitting on
a fencepost close by, or the scream of an eagle or a hawk circling
overhead, like those coyotes and the owl, hunting for some lunch.
When you see those things and hear those sounds, no matter how crazy
and mixed up this old world is today, you know goodness still exists
on this land – pure, God-given, natural goodness.
“If
it’s crowds of people, bright lights, car horns, angry drivers and
the hustle bustle of the city that you desire, this is definitely not
the life for you. I suspect most folks who drive Highway 95 in this
part of Oregon would consider it the most boring, desolate stretch of
road in America. We leave them to their thoughts, and wish them
Godspeed. In our haste today, it is easy to miss the beauty and
serenity of this wonderful land. For those people born and raised
here, for those who have lived their lives here, and for others who
have sought the solitude, this is their Eden.”

High Desert Promise, John Sackett Skinner

———-

p.s.: To quote myself: “There is no sky like a Western sky.”

Dr_Novaxx
Dr_Novaxx
1 year ago
Some of the comments remind me of a parable: A man desiring to move to an unfamiliar town asked one of the locals: “Sir, how are the people around here?” to which the local yokel responded “How are the people where you came from?” Somewhat annoyed by receiving an answer in the form of a question, the newcomer answered “Those people were annoying, selfish, and entitled.” The local then responded wryly “Well, that’s pretty much how you’ll find the people here to be.”
The moral to the story is this: If you want to find nice, generous, and caring people, wherever you are, then first become that way yourself. Otherwise become a hermit and avoid interaction.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr_Novaxx
That’s generally true, but there are definitely exceptions.
Dr_Novaxx
Dr_Novaxx
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Thank you for your comments Jack. My point is this: The Golden Rule works universally because human nature is the same everywhere.
You should try it!
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr_Novaxx
So you know, that’s how I have always operated. It’s a short list of exceptions. My mantra has always been that, apart from the random horrible, you generally get what you came for. That said, if you move to Boston, I would recommend against Charlestown. LOL
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
good stuff. read the great biographer robert caro(path to power about LBJ) description of the old money from NYC and CT heading out to west texas post ww2 to lock down the wildcatting business. the description of GHWB walking a poodle on a leash in shorts after his stint in the war, is very amusing. this kind of stuff has been around forever. nothing new. just a modern version. one of these modern money guys moving to oklahaoma or whereever might spawn anothe W the dumber even. a fake cowboy with a ranch for a prop to run for president. i’ve lived in flyover and SF and NYC, about even for 6 long decades. amerika is basically the same. rich world problems from coast to coast. the immigrants i’m now surrounded by are a blessing to the soul and gives me great hope. the russians and asians and caribbean folks surrounding me now are hard working and can survive on beans and rice for decades. a good and solid group of folks to be around. the flyover folks mostly fat and quite entitled. the neolibs in SF and NYC native borns skinny and workaholics and quite entitled. the same really. i find them to be basically indistinguishable.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Matches my experience, pretty much. The main difference I have seen is that the country people will help you out if your car gets stuck or there’s a tree down on the road (always in a pickup that inexplicably has a chainsaw on board), but are all up in your business about religion and politics, and will talk smack about you when you ain’t around. City people will ignore you, to the point of walking past you if you’re dying in the street. Both varieties of human will threaten your life over a car length on the highway.
I don’t care much for either variety. I try to live in places where I only need to encounter any of them on my weekly grocery run, and make friends with the critters around my place for company.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
great points. so true. native born amerikans have had 3 generations of entitled idiocracy with the 2 deadly combo of arrogance and ignorance. which part of usa doesn’t matter. one bit. i’ve lived in deep south, mountain west, and big cities of SF and NYC……………
the only decent ones seem to be the ones from other countries. i also vote in EU, besides Amerika. over there is another kettle of fish, but way better than Merika. this empire is crumbling and eating it’s own.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
My dad always carried on about Mexicans being lazy. I worked in agriculture for a while and got to know quite a few Mexican immigrants and illegals. Almost all of them were very hard working, solid people, good examples of what country people pretend to be. Things got a little dicey as you moved up the chain past foreman, saw some fairly shocking corruption and exploitation among the higher ups. Second and third generation, they started picking up that entitlement.
I also learned not to eat that innocent looking carrot salad they have at barbecues… it’s violently hot!
phil
phil
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
I’m in MX now. Vacay. The communication between folks here is a lot better than Berkeley.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  phil
amerikans are arrogant and ignorant. every world traveller knows this. i’m presently living in brooklyn surrounded by immigrants from every corner of globe. it’s wonderful. NYC has never had this high a percentage of immigrants since before the 1920s. it’s quite a difference from living among native borns in rich parts of NYC like upper east side or some suburb or exurb or country county from maine to CA. nyc is safe, too. if folks turn off the idiot box and do some actual research and living, would help them. some of the highest violent crime rates in our country are in rural counties and some busted cities like baltimore or new orleans………..all native borns mostly there. the immigrants in brooklyn are too busy working to do much harm. they watch out for the hoods too. reminds me of when i lived in sicilian hood in brooklyn in the 1980s………i still don’t get the flyover v city hatred and vice versa. i attribute it to the idiot box and fear of 3rd base fellas(all the native borns) who’ve never had any real worries in life.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Tucker told them we are the coastal elite, and should be hated for it. Don’t matter what we really are, that’s what they believe. And let’s not even start on the anti intellectualism.
If we show up in a little town, all that happens is the houses get too expensive for their high school educated kids. Best to just pay more for housing in a place that welcomes us.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Are you trying to imply that your posts are an example of intellectualism?
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Most of the people I grew up with in flyoverland can’t string a comprehensible sentence together to post on a blog. It’s all relative.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
There is a wide area between intellectualism and rednecks.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Generally, but I’ve met a few people that are both.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Stay in California, worthless “progressive” thing. America doesn’t want your kind here.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
You’re gonna be seething about this for your whole Saturday. That’s enough screen time for today. Go outside and play before you start kicking the dog.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
I’ll head outside to my rifle range with the targets of Californians at 200 yards. My biggest decision will be whether to practices with the AR-15 or the AR-10. One is named Hillary and the other is named Beto. LOL
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
I advise you to stay away from America, given how much you hate it. Stay in San Francisco and lick feces off the sidewalks. You are NOT welcome in my country. By the way, my country is full of Kyles. Stay away. We don’t want your attitudes, your infections, your behavior, and your California crap.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Ooooh… did that sting your tender bottom? Such a reaction! Go watch Tucker and be soothed.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
ha ha ha. you are a nit wit. the great and brave men in flyover. like uvalde police. too funny. only the half wits think there is any difference between NYC or AZ………..
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
What’s wrong with California? You’re driven to bring your unwelcome self to America?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
love california. lived there for years. same with AZ and SC and NYC and other places. just observing no differnces in native borns city or flyover. i was born in amerika. why don’t YOU leave.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Can’t you see he’s entitled to be here because reasons?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
the really funny part about modern life, is we are at the smallest percentage of people moving about this country of ours. i chalk it up to what the economist and other researchers attribute this to. rich world. no need to pick up stakes and leave where you are. a blessing really. 3rd base living for native born amerikans. ain’t the 30s. where men were hungry and had to bum a ride, on box cars or hitchhike, to search for work and food. out of hunger. far cry from that. our poorest are obese.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
I will stay because, unlike you and your kind, I don’t hate this country’s guts. You are too cowardly to take your “democratic socialist” self to Venezuela or Cuba where you belong.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
bwaaaahhhhhhh. you and your kind. too funny. thanks for the laugh old sport. you have been HAD. i have been to cuba. didn’t care for it. it’s a kind of like MAGA cult instead of Trump name everywhere, it’s Che and Fidel image in every store, restaurant and “advertising”………….
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Intellectualism is an overused term. Based on an example from a distant past, it is everything they cannot understand.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
I meant “the exercise of the intellect”. Liking to think about stuff and figure it out. Liking to learn and apply stuff, and change things so they work better… the anathema of conservatism.
I don’t see it much, but I could see it becoming fairly meaningless with overgeneralized use, like communism and socialism have.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
You are the anti-intellectual here. Not to mention the “democratic socialist” who’s too chicken to return to Venezuela with Bernie Sanders and Joe Xide, to beg for oil.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
dude, you are cracking me up. i’m starting to catch on, you are all sarcasm. entertaining us with sarcastic idiocy. hat tip to you. you got me. “too chicken to return to Venezuela……..”. so funny.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Calling ’em like I see ’em. Your racism trumps your communism. LOL
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Zardoz
As viruses go, I vastly prefer covid to Californians. The former is irritating for a couple of weeks, but at least it knows we don’t like it and then it goes away. LOL

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