The Annual Interest Rate Payment on Government Debt is $850 Billion and Rising Fast

Annualized intertest on US national debt from the BEA, chart by Mish

Note that interest on the national debt either stabilizes or drops during recession. 

This happens because the Fed slashes interest rates and holds them too low, too long, creating the next bubble that it eventually must react to. 

Social Security and Transfer Payments 

Transfer payments from the BEA, chart by Mish

Transfer Payment Notes

  • Transfer payments are redistributions of money for which there are no goods or services exchanged. 
  • Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps (now called SNAP) are examples of transfer payments.
  • During recessions transfer payments tend to soar in recessions unlike interest on the national debt. 

Transfer payments are also influenced by retirements so demographics come into play. That $2.88 trillion is guaranteed to rise from here.

Your Fed at Work 

Between February of 2020 and February of 2021, the US Treasury had a golden opportunity to refinance long-term debt at 2.0 percent or under, most of the time well under 2.0 percent.

The 30-year bond yield bottomed at 0.99 percent. That was the secular low. The decades-long bond bull is over.

It’s important to note the Treasury could not have refinanced at the lowest of those rates because the act of doing so would have tended to push yields up, but perhaps something around 2.0 percent on average may have been doable. 

Now the Fed is promising to hold yields higher for longer. The three-month yield is currently 4.66 percent. Lovely.

Fed Hikes by 1/4 Point as Expected, Commits to More Rate Hikes

On February 1, 2023, I noted Fed Hikes by 1/4 Point as Expected, Commits to More Rate Hikes

Your Tax Dollars at Work

Before a dime is spent on roads, build back better, infrastructure, or anything else, the first $3.7 trillion (transfer payments plus interest on national debt) has already been spent. 

Not to worry, they say we owe this money to ourselves. 

Yeah, right.

Correction: Between February of 2020 and February of 2021, the US Treasury had a golden opportunity to refinance long-term debt at 2.0 percent or under, most of the time well under 2.0 percent.

I previously said Fed instead of Treasury

A word about owing debt to ourselves

Apparently debt does not matter because we owe it to ourselves. Ridiculous.

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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Cocoa
Cocoa
1 year ago
The FED and CBs have managed this mathematical insolvency since 2007. Its quite amazing how they string out the inevitable default.
BDR45
BDR45
1 year ago
There’s no need for concern. NATO and the Biden administration is hell bent on WW3. It’s not going to be conventional. But the good news is that the Federal Government will collapse along with all the debt and other obligations. Why do you think the WEF is calling it the “reset”? Of course, those who are near missile silos, military bases, the pentagon, Washington DC will suffer, but depopulation is part of the agenda also.
Cocoa
Cocoa
1 year ago
Reply to  BDR45
They always say, the solution to a financial crisis is a zero sum war. US was in a tailspin, even after FDR instituted all the WPA projects and safety nets since the system was in massive deflation yet again. At the end of WW2 we were the benefactors of being the only industrial country left standing. So today, we are just experiencing the continuation of the total collapse and government insolvency. I don’t think anyone in USG or Western countries seriously think we can get out of this without massive default or financial “reset” solution that involves the rich staying rich and the rest of us going to hell in a handbasket.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Cocoa
This time around handbaskets will not be provided.
You either bring your own or do without.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago

Ultimately, as Dr. Franz Pick said: “government bonds are
certificates of guaranteed confiscation”. “People are brainwashed”. “The
fact is that the destiny of every currency is devaluation and expropriation.”

Our government is already broke.
The
Treasury is just “refinancing” (using asset swaps). Note: “The
basic idea behind “sterilization” is a situation in which a central bank
increases its holdings of one asset and decreases its holdings of another,
which results in little change to overall assets and also little change to overall
base money.”
That’s the theory behind MMT. See: Paying Interest on Reserve Balances: It’s More Significant than You Think — Scott Fullwiler
The error in economics is that banks are intermediaries. Never are the banks intermediaries in the savings-> investment process. See Richard Werner
Prof. Werner brilliantly explains how the banking system and financial sector really work. – YouTube
Powell eliminated required reserves and he destroyed deposit classifications. Powell thinks banks are intermediaries.

Under monetarism (which has never been tried),
the first rule of reserves & reserve ratios is that all money creating,
depository financial institutions (DFIs), should have the same legal reserve
requirements, both as to types of assets eligible for reserves, as well as the
level of reserve ratios.

There is no reason
for differential reserve requirements in the first place (something Nobel
Laureate Dr. Milton Friedman advocated, December 16, 1959).

Policy should limit
all reserves to balances in the Federal Reserve banks (IBDDs), & have
UNIFORM reserve ratios, for ALL deposits, in ALL banks, irrespective of size.

I.e., Powell should
reverse course.

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta

The
FED’s correct response to stagflation/ even secular stagnation, is the 1966 Interest Rate Adjustment Act.

Waller, Williams, and Logan seem to agree. They “believe the Fed
can keep unloading bonds even when officials cut interest rates at some future
date.”

Lending/investing by the banks is inflationary. Lending by the
nonbanks is noninflationary (other things equal). Bank-held savings are frozen,
as Dr. Philip George (“The Riddle of Money Finally Solved”), and Dr. Leland
Pritchard demonstrated (“Should Commercial banks accept savings deposits?”
Conference on Savings and Residential Financing 1961 Proceedings, United States
Savings and loan league, Chicago, 1961, 42, 43).

Counterintuitively, to avoid a recession/stagflation, you drive the banks out of the
savings business (which doesn’t reduce bank credit), while tightening bank
credit. That’s the GOSPEL.

KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
I don’t think the treasury has the option to refinance anything. They can’t just pay off the bond holders principal and retire the debt. The only way it could work is if the FED purchased the debt and then volunteered to lower the interest payment or refunded the interest back to the treasury. Either way, it would be highly inflationary.
alexwest
alexwest
1 year ago
= 1 tln in debt service
to put into perspective..
according daily treasury statements rolling 12 sum taxes collected is about 4.2 trln$, and that before rebates.
dont pay much attention to monthly treasury statement . it is fake as $2 bil!
———
so we are talking about 25-30% of federal revenues to serve debt only. and federal budget deficit is never going to be less than 1 trln$ . ever
if it is not banana republic i dont know what it is!
JeffD
JeffD
1 year ago
Annual interest payments have gone up by $350 billion, while annual tax receipts have increased by $1 trillion. So, the Treasury is $650 billion ahead. I’m not seeing the imminent crisis.
Foodforthough
Foodforthough
1 year ago
Reply to  JeffD
That is true. This is more of a long term issue. But if the economy does go in the toilet and people start losing there jobs and company’s goes under. Though tax receipts could dry up quickly in a recession but the debt will be there and need to be paid.
alexwest
alexwest
1 year ago
Reply to  JeffD
=tax receipts have increased by $1 trillion. So, the Treasury is $650 billion
it is because money aggregates increased about 10 trln$ for last 2 years! it is CALLED DIGITAL PRINTING.
how IS that inflation (money printing) working out for you? eggs, meat, car prices, etc?
alexwest
alexwest
1 year ago
Reply to  JeffD
fed revenues +4 trln $.
25-30% of federal revenues to serve debt only.
is 50% of federal revenues to serve debt good for crisis?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  JeffD
By this argument the deficit should be decreasing. Guess what?
Also, how much of those increased tax revenues are from capital gains?
Sunriver
Sunriver
1 year ago
This isn’t doom and gloom. This is fact. Get the popcorn ready.
Politicians by 2028 will be throwing trillions of dollars at transfer payments to make them solvent. Annual deficits will be north of $5 trillion per year as the politicians try to save Government Pensions, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.
The tax base can not save these programs, so through a joint effort between the Fed and Federal government, fully expect 0% FED Funds/QE a go go, and deficit spending that will be Y.U.G.E.
Idiots will try to Inflate our way out of the debt. Yeah right.
$50 trillion Federal debt by 2030?
Im counting on it.
I’ve invested in OIL companies primarily over the past 2 years. Up big, and big deal.
This Republic of ours will be challenged over this debt issue.
Keep bringing it up MISH. It is NOT doom and gloom. It is fact and unbearable.
jivefive98
jivefive98
1 year ago
Reply to  Sunriver
Brazil is the country of the future and always will be. The US is about to be crushed by financial facts … and has been about to be crushed by financial facts since the 1980s. Try to remember .. for all the bluster about hated government and the world coming to an end, very few people actually want the US to come to an end. All that is left is dictatorship. The next disaster is just around the corner .. unless its not.
alexwest
alexwest
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
=All that is left is dictatorship.
no . it is europe /asia thing
Americans are too individualistic. USA will be broken in pieces in next 20 years. east / west coasts, south , mid western
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  alexwest
Needs to happen. Keeping the south in the union was the biggest mistake we ever made.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  jivefive98
Actually, it is Australia. Brazil is far too unstable.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Brazil has much better dance music and rum.
Karlmarx
Karlmarx
1 year ago
Reply to  Sunriver
Socialist politicians – basically all of them – always turn to inflation in the end. Argentina was a rich country as was Italy as was Venezuela as will have been the US of A.
When? Who knows. There are a ton of assets the fed government can sell to pay down debt and people have not revolted over moderate inflation.
Problem is that the politicians don’t have the cash to fight all of the wars on the horizon. I think this is starting to look more 1890s than 1970s but let’s see.
Glad I don’t have kids to worry about
xbizo
xbizo
1 year ago
Nice Highlight. An extra half billion dollars of cash (above say the 1990s) being funneled into the economy while trying to tame inflation. Not sure how that works out.
Nonpartisan
Nonpartisan
1 year ago
We are headed for chaos and it is hard to see any solution. Selfishness has largely replaced selflessness and we will kick the can down the road until the road ends in disaster.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  Nonpartisan
The world of man has been in chaos for 10000 years. Nothing new about that.
And there is always someone shouting out “the end is near”. It won’t be any different 10, 100, or 1000 years from now.
But with chaos, comes opportunity. Do you want to be the person shouting “the end is near”, or the person taking advantage of the chaos?
MarkraD
MarkraD
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
“Do you want to be the person shouting “the end is near”, or the person taking advantage of the chaos?”
Kyle Bass, Michael Burry.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  MarkraD
Yep. Kyle Bass is always predicting doom and gloom. Year after year after year. People pay attention to him because he actually got one call correct in 2008. But he basically has been predicting disaster every single year since 2005 when he formed Hayman Capital. Here is a tiny sample:
Michael Burry is the same:
alexwest
alexwest
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
it is esp funny about his calls of CHINA collapse! any year now!!!!!! lol!!!!!!!
1.5 bln people finally can work and make money and somehow they will all stop eating , working , having life!
yeah. his is just strange dude from Texas. probably never read a single book about china history!
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  alexwest
The sad part is that many people love to listen to the doom and gloom preachers. And then they never invest at all because they are too scared.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
What counts is the result in the long term. Making money, or preserving wealth? How is Kyle’s portfolio doing?
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
No. What counts is how “your portfolio” is doing. Or mine.
Mine is doing great because I won’t let these doom and gloom preachers scare me away from investing. Sadly, many here are too scared to invest.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Better move all your millions of oil profits offshore. Guess what the gov’t will scoop up first?
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Not worried about that Chicken Little. Too busy raking in the cash while you hide in your hole.
I’m 80% Canadian oils. 16% US oils. 4% other.
The US govt put a 1% tax on share buybacks. Insignificant. The Canadian govt will put a tiny tax on share buybacks; in 2024. Insignificant. The EU put a windfall profit tax on, and companies there are rapidly cutting back on exploration. That will make my US and Canadian companies worth even more. Gotta love it.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Exactly.
Never give a sucker an even break, opportunities abound.
TheCaptain
TheCaptain
1 year ago
We HAVE to not only have debt, but exponentially rising debt. Otherwise it would not be a debt Ponzi, but it is. Remember, Ponzis do not end slowly over time giving people opportunity to exit in one piece. Nope, they collapse. It’s just the nature of a Ponzi, and no, it won’t be different this time.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
Okay. Lets assume you are correct. But when will the collapse happen? 5 years? 50 years? 500 years?
You have no idea. No one does.
I assume that given your concerns, that you must be close to 100% invested in gold? Or perhaps you can let me know how you are invested to survive this coming collapse.
By the way; I have been listening to this story for over 50 years already.
MarkraD
MarkraD
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I’m amused with the fact that the market’s down as bad as it has been over the last year, yet main street is oblivious, jobs and wages are the best they’ve been in decades.
Looks like regular folks aren’t smart enough to listen & adhere to the rantings of Doomscroll armchair economists.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  MarkraD
That depends. Not everyone is down. I’m up big, two years in a row, thanks to my oil and gas investments.
What’s amusing to me is all the folks here who have been criticizing my investments for the last two years.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Over two years ago, I starting saying there was an increasing probability of ‘technical bankruptcy’ by central banks. Right now, markets are in a holding pattern, with few exceptions. Oil trades at the margin, always has, always will.
BTW, that probability is now much higher, and still technical. How much of the world’s debt was never saved initially, and why is that important? Hunt, I bet Kyle Bass knows.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Don’t care. What counts is what “you” were investing in two years ago based on your outlook. But since you never say, its clear you are too afraid to invest.
Yet you love to criticize those who say what they invest in (like me).
You have criticized my oil and gas investments for two years now. And I am up 140%.
Don’t try to tell me how you did. Because you don’t invest at all. Let me know when you finally start to invest and let me know what you are investing in. Then we can compare.
nrm
nrm
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Dave, I’ve been watching this for a long time also, but…
Clearly what we’re seeing now is different.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  nrm

Its entirely possible you are correct.But I doubt it. I listened to a lot of doom and gloom folks in the 70s and 80s. They were very convincing. I became very pessimistic. I was afraid to invest. Eventually I realized that the same arguments about the “coming collapse” were being repeated over and over and over, but the world kept moving on. Meanwhile house prices and stock prices just kept going up over time while these doomers kept telling us to wait for the “big correction”.I finally realized that I had wasted two decades waiting for the big collapse. Enough of that. For the last 3 decades I have made a small fortune by “getting in the game”, rather than being afraid of it. Every warning I hear today, I have heard for over 50 years. It isn’t any different to me. Sadly, I find that those who keep waiting for a collapse and have missed out on a lot of gains as a result, double down, and start “hoping and wishing” for a collapse, just to console themselves for all the opportunities that they have missed out on.

Gotgold
Gotgold
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Don’t fight the Fed or the trashury
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
The first investment is the means to escape. Without it, there is no escape.
And when will collapse occur” When the time is right, probaby least expected. We might be closer than you think, or not..
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Well. That’s enough wasting my time for today. Time to go live my life AND make the big bucks. Maybe I will drop in later today.
Till then, keep on screaming “the sky is falling, the sky is falling”.
Have a great day! I know I will.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
The key to proper Ponzi investing is to curtail greed and take profits early and regularly.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
FYI, Intragovernmental debt matters, because it’s rising just like public debt and is always paid off with new public debt.
So don’t let anyone tell you that the current $6.842T in IG debt tell you it doesn’t matter. It does. It slowly adds to US public debt and therefore mandatory interest expense Mish is talking about here.
alexwest
alexwest
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
=Intragovernmental debt matters,
it is SS revenues already spent. there is no real money in SS! or in Intragovernmental holdings.
according monthly budget statement there are on ‘on’ and ‘off’ budget on federal level.
‘off’ budget includes excess of SS revenues spent each year. instead of money gov put special type of bonds into SS funds!
it is all fake money/debt!
it has been for years this way.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  alexwest
In finance, all of the assets fund all of the liabilities. For the US government….
Karlmarx
Karlmarx
1 year ago
Reply to  alexwest
The “locked box”
Portlander2
Portlander2
1 year ago
Here’s the ultimate absurdity: Quantitative Easing (QE) flooded banks with excess reserves over the past decade. Excess Reserves is money just sitting around doing nothing. Now, with the inverted term structure, those same excess reserves are generating banks something like $200B/yr in unearned income. This is like helicopter money for banks. And what do they do with it? Well, if they don’t engage in stock buybacks, they engage in more mortgage lending to add to the real estate bubble or lending to the shadow banking sector to add to the stock market bubble. But this $200 billion flow does little for the real economy (or workers).
MMT says the Treasury doesn’t need to incur interest bearing debt at all to pay its bills. They point to the actions of the Japanese Central bank (“Abenomics”) to explain that monetizing all government debt –for Japan at least– can be done while maintaining, for many years, low or negative interest rates–without sparking inflation.
The problem here is that 1) the Yen is not a global reserve currency and 2) typically Japan has an export surplus with the rest of the world (not recently but Japan still has a huge buffer in dollar reserves accumulated from past surpluses). What Japan does with its debt is therefore largely internal to Japan. The Federal Government, on the other hand, needs to pay interest on debt incurred as a result of structural trade imbalances with other countries. Interest bearing debt is the cost the U.S. government must pay for the privilege of having the global reserve currency and having huge structural deficits with the rest of the world year after year. Without the carrot of interest, why would other countries hold U.S. paper in exchange for real stuff?
Perhaps the big question is: why do U.S. voters–the workers– tolerate a strong dollar in the first place, which is the reason for these structural trade deficits? Well, Capital rules the U.S. government, not labor. The dirty secret (if it is a secret) is that the U.S. spending deficit is simply a way for the public (taxpayers) to fund trade deficits to enable wealth holders to rack up profits from their immense and growing overseas investments in dollars. In short, government deficits plus the strong dollar is a U.S. Federal debt-to-private global profits scheme. Everyone in the world benefits from the growing global dollar supply (via U.S. trade deficits) except U.S. workers (and maybe workers in other regions like the EU who suffer from an over-strong currency). Other losers are U.S. State/Local government, and publicly financed activities generally (schools, roads, bridges….). Because domestic austerity is good for us!
In short, the U.S. public is paying interest to bondholders (basically the top 1%) for the privilege of a system that disadvantages them by taking away their jobs and depressing their wages. No wonder inequality is growing in this country! The rich are getting richer, the rest of us poorer.
Oh, and for the privilege of containing inflation (which capital insists must be controlled at all costs) the most vulnerable and marginal workers get to lose their jobs when interest rates go up! Heads Capital wins, tails Labor loses.
No wonder the masses are getting resentful. Solution? I propose, as a first step: let the dollar fall until the U.S. is in balance with the rest of the world. That will immensely help U.S. workers and U.S. businesses across the board (Mains Street too). Then follow the Japanese with Abenomics and stop the absurdity of paying interest on public debt. Get the Fed on the side of the U.S. worker for the change, not U.S. banks.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Reply to  Portlander2
Wishful thinking. Not going to happen. MMT is here to stay at least until the CBDC yuan displaces the dollar as the global reserve currency.
KidHorn
KidHorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Portlander2
The US doesn’t prop up the dollar. Every country that protects their currency vs USD does. Once countries stop caring about the value of their currency in USD, it will be game over for us. Out choices will be massive austerity or hyperinflation.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  KidHorn
A side effect of hyperinflation is hyper-austerity.
Gotgold
Gotgold
1 year ago
Reply to  Portlander2
Good post
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
$853B/$31,000B gov debt = 2.75%
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
The Fed hike to cause a recession. The Fed will dump RRP . The gov and the Fed will twist their debt to the long duration, at lower rates. Transfer payments might rise to a lower high, but In 2025, president Gamala, – when the recession will be over,- will cut entitlements sharply and raise taxes. Our 250Y Empire might survive another 100Y, in a smaller form, if we avoid fighting China and Russia. We will let a rising power to express themselves. The world will be dissected. The pirates will kill themselves.
99 balloons all over US.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
99 Luftballons to be precise.
amalagoli
amalagoli
1 year ago
This is what happens when we have corrupt officials in charge. For years the Fed has done Wall Street’s bidding, fueling asset and debt inflation, enriching itself through insider trading in the process, while running irresponsible monetary policy to enrich the few. But now of course rising wages and lazy workers are to be punished.
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
1 year ago
golden opportunity
That opportunity would have taken an on-the-take-politician level of economic prognostication to exploit, eh?
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
“Not to worry, they say we owe this money to ourselves.”
During QE to the moon, the FED printed money out of thin air to buy treasuries in the open market, so now is the biggest holder.
It collects the interests, and then reimburses the treasury, minus own expenses.
They all believed they can get away with it until inflation bit them in the rear.
Bohm-Bawerk
Bohm-Bawerk
1 year ago
“That $2.88 billion is guaranteed…” Mish, replace that ‘b’ with ‘tr’
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Reply to  Bohm-Bawerk
Thanks
shamrock
shamrock
1 year ago
I’m confused by the statement that the Fed could have and should have refinanced debt to 30 years between 1 and 2%. Did you mean the U.S. Treasury rather than the Fed?
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Reply to  shamrock
Yes
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
“Note that interest on the national debt either stabilizes or drops during recession.”
So since interest on the debt is zooming up, we must not be anywhere near a recession yet. Or is it different this time?
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Oh, it’s definitely different this time. It’s 1977 – 1982 redux. Our debt has ballooned from $5.4T to $31.4T since August 2008 or 5.8x greater since the last recession. And, we can’t call 3/2020 – 5/2020 a real recession.
But this time around as you well know, we’ve got way more military threats, political division, social division, corporate division, climate division, fossil fuels divisions, and structural deficits of at least $1T+ nowadays.
It’s different alright, and as of now, no recession appears nowhere in insight. And, it’s a very state of affairs when we can say a recession is needed to cut back on the national debt interest expense. That just sounds freaking crazy!
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
No. It isn’t different. I have been listening to this story for over 50 years now. Its the same scary story, over and over and over again. Yet here we are. Still muddling along for 50 years.
I’m not saying a collapse cannot happen. I’m just saying that after 50 years of dire warnings, I’m still waiting.
The only thing I DO see is a continuous slowing of economic growth with each passing decade.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
worleyeoe, you forgot long division, which for most folks is the most difficult.
Widespread lack of mathematics is the main reason Americans are in this mess.
Most Americans can’t divide 31 trillion by 165 million, their calculators won’t handle these numbers.

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