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The Final GDPNow Forecast for 2022 Q4, What Does It Say About Recession?

GDPNow data from the Atlanta Fed, Chart by Mish. 

Chart Notes

  • The blue line is the base forecast. It is about all the public sees or hears about when the BEA releases its GDP reports, but it isn’t what matters most.
  • The red line is Real Final Sales (RFS). That is the bottom line estimate for the economy and what does matter most.
  • The yellow line is RFS to domestic buyers
  • The green line is RFS to private domestic buyers. It excludes government and exports.

Real Final Sales is the true bottom line performance for the quarter. The difference between the baseline report and RFS is inventories which net to zero over time.

Mainstream media follows the baseline number, not what matters most. 

GDPNow Current Estimate

Please consider the final update to the GDPNow Forecast for 2022 Q4 GDP.

The GDPNow model estimate for real GDP growth (seasonally adjusted annual rate) in the fourth quarter of 2022 remains 3.5 percent on January 20. The nowcast was unchanged after rounding following this morning’s report from the National Association of Realtors.

This is the last GDPNow forecast for the fourth quarter. The first GDPNow forecast for the first quarter of 2023 will be on Friday, January 27. 

Will GDPNow Hot Hand Continue?

Evolution of GDPNow Forecast from Atlanta Fed, annotations by Mish

The Blue Chip consensus is an expensive proprietary subscription. The Atlanta Fed is able to post some results with a lag. 

December data (reported in January) has been miserable across the board. That does not necessarily matter. What does matter is what the data is vs what the models expected. 

We have no idea what the Blue Chip expected. 

What If?

The GDP model has a very hot hand in 2022. But historically, it has had some pretty big misses on occassion.

If we assume the Blue Chip forecast declines just a bit on the recent reports and downward revisions on retail sales and industrial production, that would put its estimate at roughly 1.5 percent. 

Q: Is that recession territory? 
A: Yes, because it’s a baseline forecast and that’s not what matters. 

There is 1.5 percentage points between the GDPNow baseline forecast and Real Final Sales. Subtract 1.5 percentage points from the Blue Chip estimate and you are right at zero with incredibly weakening data across the board. 

New Home Sales Cancellations

The cancellation rate for KBH was an amazing 68 percent.

The New Home Sales Report Is Another Negative Revision Swamp in November

New Home Sales data from the Census Department, chart by Mish

November Revisions

  • August from 661,000 to 646,000
  • September from 580,000 to 559,000
  • October from 632,000 to 605,000

Recall my post on December 23, The New Home Sales Report Is Another Negative Revision Swamp in November

Negative Groundhog Day

Those revisions are on top of negative revisions in October and September, now lowered again. 

Is this a joke or what? Negative groundhog day perhaps? 

 What About Cancellations?

The Census Department does not subtract cancellations from its reports and cancellations due to rising mortgage rates have been huge.

To repeat, none of these revisions include cancellation and cancellation rates have been as high as 25 percent!  [Make that as high as 68 percent]

In declining sales environments and economic downturns (now), the Census Department dramatically overstates sales, even if we ignore revisions.

In economic upturns, the Census Department understates sales. 

Revisions

At economic turns, expect revisions. Heading into recessions, all of the revisions rate to be negative.

Expect to see negative revisions on jobs, more negative revisions on retail sales, and massive errors on new home sales that will not even be revised because the reporting methodology is outright flawed.

I will do a follow-up post later this weekend including a discussion with bond guru Lacy Hunt on the timing of the recession. 

Meanwhile, note another huge inventory build (assuming GDPNow is correct on that score), smack in the face of hugely weakening data across the board.

Wonderland Economy

Cast of Characters

  • Mad Hatter: Jerome Powell, Fed Chair
  • Red Queen: Janet Yellen, Treasury Secretary
  • March Hare: John Kerry, U.S. Special Presidential Envoy for Climate
  • Humpty Dumpty: President Biden
  • Alice: You decide 

In case you missed it, please see my Wonderland experience Alice Debates the Mad Hatter and the Red Queen on Timing the Recession.

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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76 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
oee
oee
3 years ago
All of your claims have been wrong; Robots are going to takeover-none productivity is barely if not declining in first half of 2022. Recession any day now. -the econ did contract in the first half of 2022. However, the econ did grow in the 3rd quarter which leads me to your other ascertion that the econ would contract for 3 quarters in a row. -which did not happen.
There wil be always be a recession because the business cycle has not been repealed. However, the expansions have lasted 5 year on average and 10 years during Dem Administrations. Kennedy-Johnson from 1961-1970; Carter from 1975-1980; Clinton from 1991-2001; Obama from 2009-2020.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
OT
Disrespectful coal mining protesters trying to save the town of Lutzerath, Germany from the Steam Shovel; leaving Police stuck in a tricky situation. Just some more fallout from the war in Ukraine.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago

Monetary
policy is backwards. Monetarism has never been tried. If you wanted to get rid
of inflation, you should stop expanding the money supply, indeed drain the
money stock, and then gradually drive the banks out of the savings business
(increasing non-inflationary velocity).

The correct response to
stagflation is the 1966 Interest Rate Adjustment Act. “while the aggregate of
time and demand deposits continued to increase after July, the proportion of
time to demand deposits diminished. Whereas time deposits were 105 percent of
demand deposits in July, by the end of the year, the proportion had fallen to
98 percent. These were all desirable developments.”

M1 peaked @137.2 on 1/1/1966
and didn’t exceed that # until 9/1/1967. Deposit rates of banks decreased from
a high range of 5 1/2 to a low range of 4 % (albeit not enough). A .75%
interest rate differential was given to the nonbanks.

And during this period, the
unemployment rate and inflation rates fell. And real interest rates rose. But then the FDIC raised deposit insurance.

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
see:

Analysis of bank debits as a
business cycle indicator 7-1-1963

We knew this already: In 1931 a commission was established on
Member Bank Reserve Requirements. The commission completed their
recommendations after a 7-year inquiry on Feb. 5, 1938. The study was entitled
“Member Bank Reserve Requirements — Analysis of Committee Proposal”

its 2nd proposal: “Requirements
against debits to deposits”
Member Bank Reserve Requirements: Analysis of Committee Proposal, Box 107 (stlouisfed.org)

After a 45-year hiatus, this
research paper was “declassified” on March 23, 1983. By the time this paper was
“declassified”, Nobel Laureate Dr. Milton Friedman had declared RRs to be a
“tax” [sic].

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta

Remember that in 1978 (when Vi fell, but Vt rose) all
economist’s forecasts for inflation were drastically wrong. Put into
perspective: There were 27 price forecasts by individuals & 9 by
econometric models for the year 1978 (Business Week). The lowest (Gary
Schilling, White Weld), the highest, (Freund, NY, Stock Exch) & (Sprinkel,
Harris Trust & Sav.).

The range CPI, 4.9 – 6.5 percent. For the Econometric
models, low (Wharton, U. of Penn) 5.7%; high, 6.6% U. of Ga.). For 1978
inflation based upon the CPI figure was 9.018%

[and Leland J. Prichard (Ph.D., Economics, Chicago 1933,
Statistics, Syracuse U, Phi Beta Kappa) using the transactions concept of money velocity, in
his Money and Banking class, predicted 9%].

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta

As I observed: Monetary flows’ propagation, are a
mathematically robust sequence of numbers (sigma Σ), neither neutral nor
opaque, which pre-determine macro-economic momentum (the → “arrow of time” or
“directionally sensitive time-frequency de-compositions”).

The “arrow of time” determines both maximum and
minimum values of a trend in the same direction. That’s how I predicted AAA
corporate yields in 1981 (as the RoC in M*Vt approached the prior reverse
trend’s 2 year limit). AAA Corporates yields rose to 15.49%. My prediction for
AAA corporate yields for 1981 was 15.48%.

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago

Economics is an exact science. But there’s not an economist alive that knows the GOSPEL.

You have to appreciate the ire of the gold bugs. Bond prices have likely topped because monetary flows have now bottomed.

8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
Gold is backing up on 2011 high. After two and a half years of failing to move up, gold might give up.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
To buy gold, you’d have to count on a fall in the U.S. $. I think interest rate differentials will be too high for too long.

Dr. Franz Pick:
(1)”government bonds are certificates of guaranteed confiscation.”
(2)“The fact is that the destiny of every currency is devaluation and
expropriation.”
(3)“The difficulty with a debt that doubles every ten years is that the
interest compounds to the point that it can no longer be paid out of the
current revenues. Once the interest itself is debt financed, the compounding
accelerates.”

That’s why folks
subscribed to Dr. Franz Picks’ “Pick’s Currency Report”, a monthly newsletter,
and “Pick’s Currency Yearbook” (90 currencies each year).

The charges on debt are related to a cumulative figure; and
since the multiplier effects of debt expansion on income, the ingredient from
which the charges must inevitably be paid, is a non-cumulative figure, it would
seem that the time will inevitably arrive when further debt expansion is no
longer a practical or possible expedient, either to provide full employment or
to keep debt charges with tolerable limits.

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
Outside money isn’t sterilized by remunerating IBDDs. An increase in outside money artificially suppresses the real rate of interest. That has a profound effect on asset prices.
O/N RRPs are at : $2,090.523. That’s keeping the yield curve inverted (short-term rates from going negative). The economic engine is being run in reverse.
The Fed’s Quantitative Easing Gamble Costs Taxpayers Billions | Mises Wire
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
The Federal Reserve’s Balance Sheet: Costs to Taxpayers of Quantitative Easing | Mercatus Center
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
Economics is not a science.
Economics is a history.
Anything other than history is simply pulled from someone’s arse.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Nominal Broad U.S. Dollar Index (DTWEXBGS)
Market Yield on U.S. Treasury Securities at 10-Year Constant Maturity, Quoted on an Investment Basis (DGS10) | FRED | St. Louis Fed (stlouisfed.org)
The FED’s going to have to watch the fall in the U.S. $
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
LOL. To understand history is to understand economics. Both stagflation and secular stagnation were predicted in 1961. “Should Commercial banks accept savings deposits?”
Conference on Savings and Residential Financing 1961 Proceedings, United States
Savings and loan league, Chicago, 1961, 42, 43.

These were yesteryears’ “smartest guys in the room” (most
prominent economists of their time).

As the economic syllogism posits:

#1) “Savings require prompt utilization if the circuit flow
of funds is to be maintained and deflationary effects avoided”…
#2) ”The growth of commercial bank-held time “savings” deposits shrinks
aggregate demand and therefore produces adverse effects on gDp”…
#3) ”The stoppage in the flow of funds, which is an inexorable part of
time-deposit banking, would tend to have a longer-term debilitating effect on
demands, particularly the demands for capital goods.” Circa 1959

Unless, you want to manage your investments in a command
economy, then the commercial banks must be gradually driven out of the savings
business.

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta

Harvard professor Alvin Hansen called Mohamed El-Erian’s
“trifecta”: secular stagnation (based on the diminishing “factors of
production”), or as Martin Wolf is chief economics commentator at the Financial
Times, London says: “chronically deficient AD”. But it is really secular strangulation,
a chronic degenerative macro-condition (based on the Keynesian macro-economic
persuasion that maintains that a commercial bank is a financial intermediary).

“Disintermediation is made in Washington”.

As Luca Pacioli, a Renaissance man, “The Father of
Accounting and Bookkeeping” famously quipped: (debits on the left and credits
on the right, don’t go to sleep with an imbalance).

And Leonardo Da Vinci said it best: “Before you make a
general rule of this case, test it two or three times and observe whether the
tests produce the same effects”.

vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
economics for most of recorded history was studied in philosophy departments by scholars. only recently did it become a “science”. it is philosophical. nothing hard scientific at all. many modern amateurs don’t get it. i’m ok with that. like trading and investing in the special olympic competition.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
I haven’t yet met a gold bug that was not permanently bullish on gold.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
That’s cost some people millions of dollars.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
Well economics uses math, certainly has entanglement, its own form of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and undoubtedly can be a wave or a particle depending on how you look at it but I wouldn’t go as far as to call it an exact science.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78

Example: This how I denigrated Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s
“Black Swan” theory (unforeseeaable event), 6 months in advance and within one
day:

[1] To: anderson@stls.frb.org

Subject: As the economy will shortly change, I wanted to
show this to you again – forecast:
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:22:50 -0500
Dr. Anderson:
It’s my discovery. Contrary to economic theory and Nobel Laureate Milton
Friedman, monetary lags are not “long & variable”. The lags for monetary
flows (MVt), i.e., the proxies for (1) real-growth, and for (2) inflation
indices, are historically, always, fixed in length.
Assuming no quick countervailing stimulus:
2010
jan….. 0.54…. 0.25 top
feb….. 0.50…. 0.10
mar…. 0.54…. 0.08
apr….. 0.46…. 0.09 top
may…. 0.41…. 0.01 stocks fall
Should see shortly. Stock market makes a double top in Jan & Apr. Then
real-output falls from (9) to (1) from Apr to May. Recent history indicates
that this will be a marked, short, one month drop, in rate-of-change for
real-output (-8). So stocks follow the economy down.
And:
flow5 Message #10 – 05/03/10 07:30 PM
The markets usually turn (pivot) on May 5th (+ or – 1 day).
I.e., the May 6th “flash crash”, viz., the second-largest intraday point swing
(difference between intraday high and intraday low) up to that point, at
1,010.14 points.
Or
From: Spencer (@hotmail.com)
Sent: Thu 9/18/14 12:42 PM
To: FRBoard-publicaffairs@… (frboard-publicaffairs…
Dr. Yellen:
Rates-of-change (roc’s) in money flows (our “means-of-payment” money times its
transactions rate-of-turnover) approximate roc’s in gDp (proxy for all
transactions in Irving Fisher’s “equation of exchange”).
The roc in M*Vt (proxy for real-output), falls 8 percentage points in 2 weeks.
This is set up exactly like the 5/6/2010 flash crash (which I predicted 6
months in advance and within 1 day).
————–
The Federal Reserve’s first (and unspoken), mandate is to assuage any Treasury
market disequilibria.

“The Oct. 15th dis-equilibria was so profound and
unique that the Treasury did a joint staff study on it with the

(1) U.S. Department of the Treasury,
(2) Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System,
(3) Federal Reserve Bank of New York,
(4) U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, and
(5) the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

“Diminishing market depth and a surge in volatility were
both on display Oct. 15, when Treasuries experienced the biggest yield
fluctuations in a quarter century in the absence of any concrete news. The
swings were so unusual that officials from the New York Fed met the next day to
try and figure out what actually happened”

Link: “Diminished Liquidity in Treasury Market”

“(Bloomberg) — Trading Treasuries keeps getting tougher
and tougher.

For decades, the $12.5 trillion market for U.S. government
debt was renowned for its “depth,” Wall Street’s way of talking about a
market’s ability to handle large trades without big moves in prices. But
lately, that resiliency has practically vanished — and that’s a big
worry.”
———

Sometimes I document these events, sometimes not.

8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Look at charts, not at Charles Dickens. SPX weekly : at the bottom, a Hammer. At the top, a Hanging Man. They look the same, but
Hanging Man is bearish. It indicate selling at the top. Add the weekly cloud : it’s red and fat. SPX is under the supply line. SPX might be in distribution. Might is not good enough. It might popup. Prepare options for a bullish Tale and bearish Tale…
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
8dots, you have Great Expectations.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Surely, Humpty Dumpty would be sitting much closer to Alice–giving her a sly fondle when he thinks people aren’t watching.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
you can grab them by the Pu**y.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
humpty TRUMPTY. hat tip ny post.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
There’s been a number of negative 1st qtrs. after seasonal expansions. We got one this year.
There have been 6 seasonal economic inflection points (they
may vary a little from year to year) Example:

Pivot ↓ #1 3rd week in Jan. (1/30/2019)
Pivot ↑ #2 mid Feb. (2/13/2019
Pivot ↓ #3 May 5, (5/3/2019)
Pivot ↑ #4 mid Jun. (6/19/2019)
Pivot ↓ #5 July 21, (7/24/2019)
Pivot ↑ #6 2-3 week in Oct. (10/23/2019)
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
When assessing the state of the economy there is much to be considered. Could it be that stated CPI is artificially low for obvious psych-op reasons, but also to minimize COLA increases. Any adjusted GDP calculations based on a too low CPI calculation would give us an artificially high GDP number in inflation adjusted terms. The usual suspects always strive for higher GDP even if they have to fake it. They might build a bridge to nowhere, start a war, or perhaps even fabricate climate change. If there are not big enough numbers floating around there is nothing left to skim. At all costs the notion of prosperity has to be kept alive to entice new players into the current paradigm.
When I look at the lack of abundance on the shelves and in the marketplace; it is hard for me to believe we are in an economic expansion. There is just not enough goods and services out there to promote high GDP numbers. So not only is demand low, but supply is low also.
People are probably moving to a contentment stage of economic development out of necessity. Hopefully their spiritual side of contentment will be enhanced as well.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
There is a vast difference between contentment and resignation.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
“There is a vast difference between contentment and resignation.”
My post was meant to encourage contentment. Resignation I believe is one of the 10 stages of grief. Contentment is one of the most important stages of a successful life.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
correct. i’d also add, CPE which is what the fed likes, and seems more accurate. versus CPI. so many choices in rich world to replace high priced items with other items to feel “content”. i agree sir or madam, contentment is everything. the ancient wisdom of if you want contentment be content. if you want more, get more. just don’t confuse getting more with being content. in the super rich world of the past 80 years in USA, getting more is a simple task.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Could it be that stated CPI is artificially low for obvious psych-op reasons, but also to minimize COLA increases. Any adjusted GDP calculations based on a too low CPI calculation would give us an artificially high GDP number in inflation adjusted terms. The usual suspects always strive for higher GDP even if they have to fake it. They might build a bridge to nowhere, start a war, or perhaps even fabricate climate change. If there are not big enough numbers floating around there is nothing left to skim. At all costs the notion of prosperity (and fear) has to be kept alive to entice new players into the current paradigm.
When I look at the lack of abundance on the shelves and in the marketplace; it is hard for me to believe we are in an economic expansion. There is just not enough goods and services out there to promote high GDP numbers. So not only is demand low, but supply is low also.
People are probably moving to a contentment stage of economic development out of necessity. Hopefully their spiritual side of contentment will be enhanced as well.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way—in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.”
Opening lines of A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens
prumbly
prumbly
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
And what is the use of a book, without pictures or conversation?
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
Alice! What are you doing in an economics blog? My have you fallen.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
“During the whole of a dull, dark, and soundless day in the autumn
of the year, when the clouds hung oppressively low in the heavens, I had
been passing alone, on horseback, through a singularly dreary tract of
country; and at length found myself, as the shades of the evening drew
on, within view of the melancholy House of Representatives.”
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Nevermore, Lisa, Nevermore.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
A recession is when a society lives within it’s means. Boom times are when a society lives above it’s means and lives within it’s leverage capacity. Some of this is actual shifts in money events and some of it is psycological which leads to actual shifts in money events. By May of 2022 both were well along the way both psychological and actual.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
New home sales : up from 300K to 1,000K, down 50% of the move from 2010 low. That’s not deep enough. // The Dow made a rd trip to 2020 high and popped up.
The Dow might make a zigzag up, (a-b-c up) to a new all time high. On wave b down, SPX & NDX might make a rd trip to 2020 high, before popping up to a lower high. // Recession : when the Dow, SPX and NDX dive together in rd trip #2, racing each other, for fun and entertainment, recession during the slump, before rising to a new all time high in the next 4Y/ 7Y….
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
3 years ago
The GDP should be expected to fall further now that layoffs are in full swing.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Six000mileyear
Really? The 1st-time unemployment claims just dipped to 190K.
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
There is a lag and recent layoffs not seen het in the data.
Recent layoffs continue to be on payroll for 3-4 months.
Then they become unemployment claims, unless they find jobs in the meantime.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Jack
That’s a big assumption / over generalization.
But, I would agree that most tech layoffs are finding work fairly quickly or can afford to sit out a while.
The next 3 months will be very key as to whether or not the contagion spreads broadly.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
every young techie i know laid off from robin hood and FB etc………has landed a job. i keep asking everyone i speak to. not one human have i found who is out of work, unwillingly. mish’s analysis on job market seems awfully wrong by all indications. another very sober thing per legit sources like economist newspaper is besides early retirement by geezers north of 55 there is more croaking off, too.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
The average of the 4 is 2.15%. Not bad IMHO. Seasonally adjusted 1st-time unemployment claims dropped to 190K which is just flat out bullish for the job market.
Outside of 5 or so major gonzo housing markets, residential housing prices haven’t gone into a tailspin yet. It’s kind of a draw to slight buyers’ market currently. The 30YFRM is close to dropping below 6% and this may happen by the end of the month. Once it reaches 5.5% by March, housing sales will begin to stabilize.
As such, the most likely scenario for 2023 is continued softness until late spring at which point the economy (including housing) stabilizes with a slight pickup in inflation by July / August.
If this comes to pass, it may take a 7% FFR to push the economy into a recession. The 12-month mark for the Fed raising the FFR is just around the corner. If JPowell has put on his Volcker big boy pants, he’ll raise the FFR to 5% in early February. Otherwise, he’s signaling the end is nigh.
shamrock
shamrock
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
2023 should be a banner year for private domestic investment, led by energy, transportation, and non residential construction. With helpful assists from battery and chip factories.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Cascade Springs, Utah Scenic Byway, Post #4 Moose
Lots of moose images
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Nice moose.
Did you see flying squirrel?
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Look at those puny antlers! He is not going to get any this season. Needs to take supplements.
Bohm-Bawerk
Bohm-Bawerk
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Great pictures Mish!
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Nice to see you finally got your moose shots!
I chuckled when I saw you took one of him going to the bathroom.
They reminded me of what it was like when I used to visit Algonquin park in Ontario in my 20’s and see them all the time when we’d canoe past them in swamps and streams. Never had any kind of incident of being charged but I also never went during mating season either.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
saw the same in Maine in my youthful years surveying and tramping and hitchhiking…………
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Never saw a picture of moose fertilizing his dinner table.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
FANTASTIC PHOTOS AND WRITE UP. THANKS FOR SHARING HERE.
Matt3
Matt3
3 years ago
If I read this right, you are saying that when real final sales are negative, that is a recession? Does that line up with the past recessions and how does that compare to 2022 Q1 and Q2 that had negative GDP? How much will real final sales drop in a recession that is mild or severe?
Looking at the chart below, I see recession of 2008 and shutdown of economy in 2020. Other than that, where are the recessions?
GDP makes more sense to me as a recession indicator as inventory builds and draw downs impact employment.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt3
The NBER uses a big slew of reports. But they are so late, with most revisions in, that in retrospect it is usually obvious.
Once they were so late the recession had ended before they called it.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
So true. The NBER makes predictions after the fact.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt3
Mish has been predicting a recession now for 9 months. What’s he’s saying is that he’ll eventually get it right.
Until 1st-time unemployment claims move towards 250K, then recession talk is just that. Talk.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Real final sales are down for a reason–the national (economic) psychology has shifted from neutral to negative–see house sales, declining profits, layoffs underway etc. The only question is how bad it will be. Given that the Fed is essentially emasculated… it will not be pretty.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
And I don’t really disagree with your point of view, Captain, but layoffs outside of tech have to pick up dramatically at some point for there to be REAL movement towards a recession. To-date, any decline in profits isn’t translating into layoffs outside of tech & banking, at least as far as I can tell.
IMHO, 190K 1st-time unemployment claims this far into a housing reset means things aren’t nearly as bad as one would expect. In general, a housing slump leads us into recession, and I’m not hearing anything layoffs in the housing industry. So there’s has to be a 6-8 week trend higher for there to be reasonable evidence that the labor market is softening towards a recession.
But HEY, inflation is still at 6.5% so this means the labor market is still tight. I think the signal of recession or not comes in the March / April timeframe. Last, the most important metric, IMHO, to watch is the 30YFRM. If it moves fairly quickly towards 5.5% and then onto 5% by late spring / early summer, then we’re going to skip a recession, because residential housing will begin to stabilize, thus eliminating the usual precursor to a recession.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
IMHO, this recession will be one for the record books. First, we see overpriced, high risk, interest rate sensitive businesses exit–the higher the leverage the faster low-hanging fruit fall. I’ve learned to be patient. Plus this time, the failure will be truly global. Gold seems to be making a move.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Yes, sir! And, I totally agree with you, but I think it’s going to take more time than most expect for a REAL recession to arrive. I see the economy stabilizing by late this spring / early summer, then a gradual rise in inflation that forces the Fed to move the FFR towards 7%. I think what you’re expecting hits within a year from now. Maybe that aligns somewhat with your timeline. I just don’t think it’s around the corner. There’s still too much services inflation that has to be beat down, IMHO.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
exactly correct. i have read mish for many years and found him insightful as hell, especially on r/e. but playing the game of the NBER calling a “recession”, seems a real suckers game and next to meaningless for any market participant like most chaps and ladies on this blog. i much prefer the old nomenclature like panics and depressions and runs……….and the recession is when my neighbor loses their job and house and depression when it is me.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
PS. thought mish calls shadow stats nutjobs, their scoring GDP to old measurement, we never have recovered from the Covid enduced panic depression. just an FYI if he sees this. i personally love slow downs for opportunities. of course the currency debasement of my 100 USD in my wallet is very apparent the past 5 and 10 and 30 and 50 years. we call that inflation.
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
Perfect chart on new home sales, Mish…
The run up to 2008 was massive. Current run up is mild in comparison. Looks like we are close to normal volume now and good chance the bottom is in as we have few months around this number. Maybe a decline under 600K to come, but I think possibility is small without another shoe dropping.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  xbizo
When the debt ceiling is held hostage, and the other side doesn’t blink, a big shoe is gonna drop.
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Love to see it happen. Doubt it will. Republicans will submit. Don’t see an argument that will play publicly. If it happened, Yellen would stop payments to voters to bring pressure.
But if we can experiment with trillions of helicopter money, why not experiment with halting the outgo and see what happens? No doubt we would learn that life goes on…
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  xbizo
You’re presupposing rational motives. If these people are rational, they’re hiding it really well.
I’m not really interested in experiments… I’m more interested in civilization hanging together until after I shift off this mortal coil. My life is good, and I want it to stay that way.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Nobody is going to default government debt payments. To think that’s in the realm of possibility is just absolutely ludicrous. Yellen can put a lot of things on hold for the next 6 months, before things get dicey which they really need to IMO. The House has to get back to passing budgets out of conference, so they can spend a few months haggling over how to slow the growth of federal outlays effectively and hopefully without tanking the economy. One thing is clear though, the total lack of budgetary restraint shown by Pelosi, Schumer & the uniparty RINOS must be replaced by fiscal responsibility.
lamlawindy
lamlawindy
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
There may not be an “honest default,” no. More likely are “de facto defaults” in the guise of statutory changes like using Chained CPI to adjust Social Security COLAs and/or tax brackets.
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Big potatoe be much better …..
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Are you describing Russia as the “Big Potato”??
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
Thank you for weighing in, vice president Quayle.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
IMHO, a 25% reduction in gov’t would be a GOOD thing.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  xbizo
When the 30YFRM dips below 6% and stays there, then the bottom is in, agreed. We’re very close now. The only way housing will get materially worse is if the drop in inflation stalls out. That will spook the fed and bond investors, giving the 30YFRM legs to rise back towards 7%.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  xbizo
not if you make it a log graph. recent runup past decade was massive too. i’m loving seeing the crash now.
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
but there is no crash. prices are sagging, but not being cut in half as in 2008. No increase in foreclosures, flood of supply on the market. Supply still tight.

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