Trump orders “a new and highly accurate CENSUS based on modern day facts and figures.”
Details Missing
In the absence of details, I have a difficult time envisioning how this is supposed to work.
Knock Knock
Who’s there?
The Census Department. How many illegals live here?
Let’s assume there is a procedure that works. Is the idea sound?
No, the Idea Is Unconstitutional
I don’t expect my opinion to be popular. But I don’t care.
Instead, I propose the constitution matters and Trump’s proposal is unconstitutional.
The 14th Amendment to the Constitution says “Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.”
Trump’s demand for a new census appears to align with a House bill that Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican from Georgia, introduced last month. That bill calls for not only excluding noncitizens from the apportionment numbers, but also a new census and round of congressional redistricting before the 2026 midterm election.
Sorry but neither the president nor a simple bill in Congress can override the Constitution.
2020 Flashback
The Supreme Court blocked the Trump administration’s effort to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census. The question, “Is this person a citizen of the United States?”, was ultimately not included on the census questionnaire.
This decision came after a legal battle over the administration’s rationale for including the question, with the court finding the stated reasons to be inadequate.
In Department of Commerce v. New York (2019), the Supreme Court effectively blocked the Trump administration’s attempt to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census.
Chief Justice John Roberts, writing for the majority, found that the Commerce Department’s stated reason for adding the question – facilitating Voting Rights Act enforcement – was a “pretextual reason” and a “distraction.” He highlighted that the evidence didn’t match the explanation provided.
The Court’s decision essentially said that while the Commerce Department could potentially add a citizenship question in the future, it needed to provide a “genuine justification” for doing so, according to the American Enterprise Institute.
The “genuine justification” idea seems flawed . The 14th Amendment is clear.
The constitution calls for the counting of persons, not citizens. This was for a very good reason. A very large portion of the population of the southern states were not citizens. They were slaves, who were very explicitly not citizens of the US.
Every census counted everyone, including non-citizens, since 1790.
If we want to change the constitution, I suggest we try do it in the proper manner, not by decree of someone who acts like he is a king.
Birthright Citizenship
In a related idea, Trump’s birthright citizenship idea is headed to the gutter.
For discussion, please see Appeals Court Rejects Trump’s Birthright Citizenship Executive Order
The Appeals Court ruling was 95 percent likely, so this is no shocker. But let’s review the case.
My positions will likely be purposely misconstrued to supporting voting by illegal immigrants. However, I support no support no such thing.
Instead, I expect presidents to honor the Constitution.
Sadly, neither Trump nor Biden did nor does. Biden openly flouted the Supreme Court on student loans. Trump’s radical positions on birthright citizenship are even more extreme.
14th Amendment
Section 2
“Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.”
“Indians not taxed”: This term generally refers to American Indians living within their tribal territories and not fully integrated into the state and federal systems.
Purpose: The exclusion of “Indians not taxed” was intended to acknowledge the distinct status of Native Americans at the time and their relationship with tribal governments.Historical Context: The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, following the Civil War, and aimed to address issues of citizenship and representation. The exclusion of “Indians not taxed” reflects the historical reality of tribal sovereignty and the limited integration of many Native Americans into the broader society.
Subsequent Legislation: The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 formally granted U.S. citizenship to all American Indians born in the United States, further clarifying the legal status of Native Americans.
The above is 100% clear to anyone not inflicted with TDS Type II.
And Supreme Court already ruled against Trump on including his census question.
This is a great idea. The census is used for a lot of things other than determining Congressional seat allocation, such as apportioning federal assistance to the states. Illegals shouldn’t be included in all such apportionments, and a count of the illegals would help prevent that. In addition, it would be good for all U.S. citizens to know how many illegals are in each state, so they can make voting decisions with that information in mind. Finally, if illegals know the question will be asked, they are less likely to respond to the census, which to me is a positive since they then will not be included in Congressional seat apportionment. You are entitled to your opinion, Mish, but this time it seems to me that none of your rationale for your opinion holds up at all. I am surprised, frankly. Not that you have this opinion of the Constitutionality of using this information for Congressional seat apportionment – that point is debatable. Whether or not it is a good idea to collect this information seems to me not really in question, though. Don’t libertarians think more information is better?
Slaves weren’t citizens, but were counted in the census as 3/5 of a person.
“I propose the constitution matters and Trump’s proposal is unconstitutional.”
That argument is a pure anachronism to today’s GOP. Seen what they are rolling over and allowing Trump to do to our country?
“Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.”
Sorry to tell you this but until 1924 Indians born on reservations were not considered US citizens. Hence the 1924 Indian citizenship act. The issue of counting lawful vs. unlawful immigrants is actually subject to debate because if the 14th amendment excluded Indians, it could certainly be used to exclude illegal aliens. The question is whether legislation is needed.
Heard the other day that a new poll showed Mandami leading all other candidates combined, for New York mayor. Even if all other candidates dropped out and backed a single opponent, they would allegedly lose to Mandami. The current L.A. mayor has been to Cuba a half dozen times under Castro.
Rules for radicals says to overwhelm the system, in order to overthrow it. Democrats have worked to overwhelm the immigration system for political ends, to impose their unconstitutional agenda on the American people. Democracy is the enemy of the constitutional Bill of Rights. Democrats are always parroting “our democracy,” when it is our constitutional republic. Democrats oppose free speech, religious rights, gun rights, fair trials. Constitutional rights.
The way the Census is worded in the US Constitution presents a HUGE contradiction. The US Constitution is about equal distribution of power, not only by checks and balances, but by specifying who may vote. By apportioning House of Representatives seats among the population rather than citizens, a state with a large non-citizen population will have a lower voter to seat ratio than a state with fewer non-citizens. The lower the voter to seat ratio means a greater the voice in government. If the Census method is allowed to stand, illegal aliens would have indirect power in the government by the crime of entering the country illegally. The crime of entering illegally cannot be encouraged or rewarded because of an oversight in the wording of the Census.
Mish, and fellow Mish-Ners: is Trump aiming at a California who has a huge “Population of Immigrants, Not Citizens” who are nevertheless considered in order to sway the number of Electorals in the College? I have no skin in this question.
What needs to be fully explained is: “what is TrumpCo’s Goal?”
Is it the way we “hire our leaders?”
Askin’ for a friend.
Mish-nary perhaps? Looking after the state of the ‘coal mine’ that is the USA
You can count everyone in the census, as it is useful information
BUT you should NOT base state political representation of illegal immigrants
Especially when the Traitors have thrown open the gates from the inside to the invaders
When you let in 30 million illegals in 4 years (yeah 12 million they know about and what is the ratio of those who snuck in uncounted to those they know about. At least 2 to 1) you have imperiled the Republic and those people should under NO circumstances be counted for purposes of congressional representation
Good thing for the census takers all illegals will answer they are here illegally when asked by the Census workers. Hahahaha
In 2020 PES of the census bureau transferred 5 seats from red states to blue states which causes the house to be much closer than it should be. The Democrats and the never trumpers in Congress held hearings and agreed that millions of US citizens were denied representatives of their voting choice. Nothing was done as the action benefitted Joe, the Democrats and the bureaucracy.
Was the response to the 2020 act of denying voters proper representation constitutional?
I believe this response is long overdue, but I would have preferred actual criminal charges or at least people losing their job, but neither happened.
Q: what was wrong with the census?
A: nothing
Now, if you want to complain – try complaining about gerrymandering in California, Illinois, New York, and MA
i’ve used the census from 1910 and 1920 to prove citizenship for myself to obtain italian passport. my grandfather was clearly identified in census as alien at his home addresses.
Yes, we have done the same seeking Dual Citizenship in Germany. My wife and I have DIRECT IMMIGRATION DESCENDANTS Bavaria, Germany.
GERMANY IS HOLDING OUR FEET TO THE FIRE with notary requirements, nine pages of application material and 50 plus Phone calls to our “Lawyer” (called “Advocates”) there.
We want the freedom to remain in Portugal/Spain/ITALY for years if we so choose.
Do not ask me why we seek this as Americans.
Mish, in this case, you are TOO biased according to a document that is inherently flawed when it comes to Citizenship. And, no, I do not CARE if Slaves were counted. Slaves have all but disappeared, except for: “Debt slaves, Work Slaves, Citizen Slaves & TAX SLAVES.”
Mish lets just say gerrymandering in general is the issue.
Imo it may just back fire on them. There are a lot of immigrants in farm country. Which is generally red.
I think trump just wants to use a new census so texas can justify redistricting.
The census was considered fit for purpose by the people in power in 2022. If someone wanted to challenge their view the census bureau left it open. The text from the census bureau is below.
“Although we strive to minimize undercounts and overcounts, we experienced them to varying degrees in previous censuses. However, we defer to policy experts and decision makers on whether the data meet their specific needs.”
The only way to change the “fit for purpose” census is to have another census.
Response: There was a problem with the census which was identified by sampling of data.
The democrats brought this about by letting in 20M illegals. THATS why it can’t wait till 2030. If u wanna count then be law abiding. Too bad we can’t string up mayorkas et al who brought this mess about.
Since the 80 s there have be times when either dems or republicans controlled congress. Either party could have passed reform. Could have always compromised. Its like neither party wants to solve it. I used to think republicans wanted the labor and dems wanted the votes. Thinking now both parties dont want to solve the issue. They want something to divide us during elections
Even now the republicans in congress are pretty much letting trump deal with it through ex orders. Which are pretty much temp laws.
It will never get controlled until the fines for hiring illegals are stout and enforced.
Right now business are placing the cost of enforcement on the government while benefiting from the cheap labor.
How do you get an illegal to admit they are here illegally when taking the census?
If the USA is a global empire, shouldn’t we include everyone in the census?
But they have brown skin, so application has been denied
This proposed new census isn’t the decennial census in the Constitution, which is explicitly controlled by Congress per Article 1, Section 2:
“The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. ”
The 14th amendment bit that Mish cites, as well as the original Constitutional language regarding slaves, is precedent that not all Persons need to be counted equally. Congress can decide who to count.
One note, given that one major party appears to be self-immolating: if the other party gains stronger control of both houses of Congress next year, they could force the issue.
The Constitution is a dusty old rag to conservatives, now that Trump has declared there is no use in abiding by its requirements.
Under Mish’s new 14th amendment “persons” standard … and since according to Citizens’ United, corporations are now legally “persons” … I think corporations should also be included in apportioning representatives!
Oh wait, they already own all the Representatives…
The wisdom you seek has been achieved. Well done.
Citizens United gave enough power as it is. We can’t fix this country before murdering CU.
It’s just a headline grabber for some attention.
There is no obvious way to do it. Even if someone comes to the door and asks they have no way to force you to prove your status (in fact in a spur of the moment spot check probably 99% of the people could not prove whether they were legal or not unless they carried multiple pieces of ID on them). If they simply mail a survey it has a snowballs chance in hell of being accurate.
What’s also funny is that he says he isn’t going to count illegals but he is apparently going to count someone like myself (here on a work visa) as being valid for census purposes which seems strange.
You’re white, correct?
Yes
But, you Tan easily?
No that’s him blushing
With a name like Texas Tim, if he wasn’t white I’d eat all of Texas’s ten gallon hats
I dont think its about counting illegals so much. I guess it may change number of people in districts. Imo that could go against them in say farm country.
I think hes doing it to justify redistricting in texas.
Mish the 14th amendment applicability to the census is an overreach by the judiciary. As you know it is intended to provide citizenship status to former slaves. Since Marburg v Madison and John Marshall, the judiciary has usurped the legislature and executive powers. At the writing of the Constitution there is clear legislative intent since James Wilson and James Madison maintained a diary and encapsulated each critical piece of the constitution. Furthermore, the Virginia ratification process provided legislative intent to the census and eventually pushed Madison to write the Bill of Rights. To understand the background further as the definition of what is a “person” at the writing of the constitution please refer to Emerich Vatel’s Law of Nations.
You should read the constitution and understand the history.
I don’t give a rat’s ass about Emerich Vatel’s Law of Nations nor will the Supreme Court.
The 14th is 100% crystal clear. And it supersedes what came before it.
Now what about this do you fail to understand?
Apportionment Clause:
Section 2 of the 14th Amendment mandates that representation in the House of Representatives be based on the population of each state, but it specifies that “Indians not taxed” should be excluded from this count.
“Indians not taxed”: This term generally refers to American Indians living within their tribal territories and not fully integrated into the state and federal systems.
Purpose: The exclusion of “Indians not taxed” was intended to acknowledge the distinct status of Native Americans at the time and their relationship with tribal governments.
Historical Context: The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, following the Civil War, and aimed to address issues of citizenship and representation. The exclusion of “Indians not taxed” reflects the historical reality of tribal sovereignty and the limited integration of many Native Americans into the broader society.
Evolving Understanding: While the language remains in the Constitution, the practical application has evolved. Today, all American Indians are generally considered citizens, and the term “Indians not taxed” is largely considered obsolete.
Subsequent Legislation: The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 formally granted U.S. citizenship to all American Indians born in the United States, further clarifying the legal status of Native Americans.
The above is 100% clear to anyone not inflicted with TDS Type II
And you might wish to reflect on the idea that the Supreme Court already ruled against Trump
It is screaming, “OUT DATED” Mish.
When did disenfranchising citizens become okay? Every citizen is now only a 90% citizen because of 30 plus million illegals counted the same as citizens. When the congress cannot act and the judges fail, it is the job of the executive to act as elected by the 9/10 citizen to regain them to full citizenship. Our system is balanced by the power of the executive balanced by votes and time. Congress by forming a majority and judges by numbers and term. Trump is the executive and acting on the majority of the 9/10 citizens that elected him. As the king(executive for his term) HE IS ONLY SUBJECT TO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
Mish needs to understand that his suggestion that the executive is overstepping his bounds does not understand that this is the result of God ordained system self correcting to restore full rights back to citizens. Since the courts and legislature failed to restore citizenship to 100%, it falls to the executive as elected. If the degrading of citizenship continues, OUR God ordained system fails. Without the correction, our country becomes just another state ruled by the select few who have narcissistic tendencies and are not elected but appointed through nefarious means. As dramatic as this sounds, this is the defining moment where God is laying before us a choice as a country. Either the God inspired system is restored,which has saved the world and been an ambassador for spread self determination to others, or we fail and the world goes to a darker place. I pray we can stay strong.
Its an interesting point, that the constitution was deliberately written to include non citizens to grant political power to the slaveholding states. Clearly not an oversight then.
Some of the framers of the Constitution owned slaves.
Slaves were brought in legally and at most numbered 4 million. The civil war made them legal American citizens. Slavery never should have happened. it was evil, though widespread around the world for millenniums. If the USA chooses to legalize illegal aliens, they should attempt to do so-but not with the votes of the illegals, nor the extra congressional votes from counting them. Slaves were not brought in to allow one party to win elections over the other party, or because some degenerate elites think America needs to be more divided and fighting amongst themselves so the elites can more easily control the population. We had a civil war, significantly over the slavery issue. Seems the folks pushing massive immigration might like to see that happen again.
Slavery is not a “past tense” sort of thing: it is still going on, it just hides in the shadows and disguises itself under other names.
You got it. Think of the forms we fill out to build a house. The Permitting processes. The paperwork. The DELAY tactics. We are working on an 8 Million Dollar project here in Oregon, just started a month ago – – after being submitted for local County approvals 3 YEARS AGO. The cost of applying: $750,000 to Lawyers and to the county.
WWI, WWII, and Vietnam were fought with slaves (conscripted). A worse form of slavery where you are told to murder strangers or die yourself, because some corrupt politician says so.
WE ARE ALL SLAVES NOW: to the IRS.
I think it’s a good idea to not count non-citizens towards Congressional apportionment. I also don’t believe that non-citizens should be able to vote in ANY election, not only Federal elections.
However, there isn’t any feasible way to implement this technically.
To do this, everyone would need to be “chipped” at birth so all could be identified rather than relying on their testament.
Absolutely this will be the correct thing to do. It’s time to end aid and benefits to illegals, since when do we do this for any other criminal? Further for the allocation of funds, we need to know the numbers for whom are entitled and that doesn’t mean illegals. Finally, we are getting our act together.
Has the Bolshevik Left ever followed the Constitution? Yes-when it suits their Marxist goals. For the most part the left, and often the right, invoke the Constitution when it suits them. For the most part the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights is ignored. Our glorious and all powerful elites make up the rules, provide their own biased interpretation of the Constitution and decide.
The document is broad enough and flexible enough to allow for excluding illegal aliens based on a requirement of citizenship, without having to amend the 14th Amendment. That’s the ways it has always been done, especially in the past 60 years.
The Left ignored all laws and Constitutional principles when they illegally brought in 20 million plus illegals to subvert America-to change the composition, the demographics, the values, the culture of America. So having done so, you want Americans-traditional Americans- to go by the letter of the law to support a strict interpretation to allow illegals to be counted to increase the numbers of Congressional seats so that billionaire, oligarch elites can consolidate their power and control?
I don’t buy it. It is a matter of survival of America as was envisioned by the Founding fathers-the architects of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
My contention is to perform this count and, when compared to the “other count” (aka the offical count), we’ll have a true picture of the disparity being caused by counting illegal immigrants and we’ll have states seeing apportionment that they may now feel is wrongly going to California that would otherwise go to Wisconsin. Once you see how wronged you are you are apt to ask for, no, demand that things change.
Or not.
But count away I say. The unofficial census vs the official census. Cage match.
You have been down-voted so far – – by three absolute idiots.
“If we want to change the constitution, I suggest we try do it in the proper manner, not by decree of someone who acts like he is a king.”
No longer possible in the USA. Voting on a non-partisan but controversial provision exposes sitting Congressmen and Senators to losing their seats in the next election. America and the rule of law simply aren’t worth that loss of power.
“Indians not taxed”. Perhaps Trump’s team will argue through a loophole that Mexicans are technically Indians.
In a progressive heaven (earthly hell), you would be sent to jail for using the wrong word Indians. While there, you would have to write a thousand times a day: aboriginals, followed by indigenous…
The Constitution needs to be rewritten to eliminate such racial slurs! /s
Sure this is probably true
“ I propose the constitution matters and Trump’s proposal is unconstitutional.”
But I’ pretty sure the clear language of the constitution doesn’t authorize the federal government to tell you how much wheat you are allowed to grow on your own property for your own consumption, in a single state yet the courts magically found a justification under the interstate commerce clause in the Wickard case.
We are a full century past the point of the courts actually caring if the constitution allows something so why not this? You could make at least as good of an argument as in the interstate commerce example.
The Constitution says nothing about the amount of wheat you can grow for personal consumption on your own property. However, It clearly lays out the criteria for performing a national census. See the difference?
Its a moronic distinction, but sure I understand your point.
The constitution enumerates congressional powers. Telling you how much wheat you can grow is not among them which is why they had to invent a rationale around an enumerated power to regulate interstate commerce otherwise the court would have simply told congress
“Constitution is silent on this so do what you want”
In effect you are arguing congress can do anything it damn well pleases if the constitution doesn’t explicitly tell them they can’t.
Inventing a rationale here for a power Trump doesn’t have would be substantively the same thing.
They are illegal. They shouldn’t be here. They shouldn’t vote or be counted for census purposes. There are exceptions. The Constitution protects the right to life–except for the 50 million or so aborted babies. The Constitution protects Liberty and free speech–unless you offend someone or take a stance on dozens of other important issues that whoever is in power chooses to silence. But of course, we can’t make an exception for illegal aliens. We must follow the very strictest interpretation here.
This is for the Supreme Court to decide and not me. Nothing else to say.
Trump can probably count whomever he wants, when he wants. However, only the count made each 10 years, under the guidelines laid out by the Constitution, actually means something for allocating seats in Congress and the other purposes laid out by law.
Do you understand what happened the last time Trump tried this?
The Supreme Court stopped it.
Your understanding of the Constitution and how it works is pathetic.
The Constitution is indeed very clear on the requirement to count persons independently of immigration status. In fact, this way of counting is general practice across countries. In the courts, Trump will have to argue that “undocumented immigrants” are not “persons,” which would hew close to a version of the Nuremberg race laws of 1935.
Oh? Which other countries count illegal immigrants when they decide which district gets how many representatives? I am very curious.
My best understanding: Countries that use population data (US, Canada, Australia) include the undocumented (if they get picked up by the census; for obvious reasons, the census doesn’t count many of the undocumented). Some countries use registered voter data (UK). Other countries (Germany) fix the number and don’t recalculate after a census.
Have any of them received a massive influx in a very short time engineered by a party in power that looks very much like it was specifically made to gain electoral seats? I would be interested in examples.
Exactly! There are AT LEAST 20M illegals in the US. And not a DAMN one of them are allowed to vote legally all though a small % of them do try.
In 2019, it was widely reported that at least 11.3M illegals were in the US. Add Biden’s ~10M, and you’ve conservatively got 20M illegals.
So no, the founding fathers would have never expected such an event to occur, when they created the constitution. The exact same thing can be said about birth right citizenship & anchor babies.
Whether we like it or not, AI & robotics are starting to destroy jobs that are clearly showing up labor statistics, and this is only going to accelerate over the next 5 years, and within 10, we’ll be in full meltdown mode.
At present, it’s estimated that about 250K illegals work on farms. While that number seems low to me, I certainly don’t expect anywhere near that many working in the farming industry within 10 years.
There are all sorts of reckonings coming due to AI & robotics, but the last thing we need is to start acting like illegals should have some sort of protected status, which includes being counted in census data.
Accurate census data is used for all sort of things, but I’m not aware of anything that constitutionally relates to ensuring illegals receive public assistance, voting or any other rights given to US citizens.
I imagine they would have to argue intent, and find something in the historical record that suggests they didn’t intend to include non-citizens. Thats probably hard to do, but the pavlov’s dog “Trump is Hitler” on everything is getting tiresome.
The Constitution was written long ago in a different time by people who would be boggled by today’s world. It is essentially obsolete and should be rewritten to bring it inline with modern technology and sensibilities.
That comes after the bloodbath.
Arm yourself.
That’s pretty dark.
“boggled by today’s world”… I think they’d catch up pretty quickly!
You know this how? Did you maybe ask an AI what they might do? Whew, what a dumb statement!
You have some good things to say. But your assertion that minds from our past…of reasonable intellect couldn’t cope today seems odd to me.
Maybe counting them as 3/5ths of a person, combined with the gerrymandering, would get him over the line.
Trump’s goal is not only to marginalize the illegals, but to make himself look good at any cost — presidential, even. His tactics, varying over time but integral in intent and purpose, show him as a man who is unwilling to compromise in any except the most dire of cases. Compromise, a talent of the average politician, brings a frown to his face.
It begs the question: Is Trump REALLY a politician? He works in the political arena, so you might say, axiomatically, he must be.
But his borderline unacceptable behavior (not criticizing him; just making a neutral observation) is such that no real politician would be caught doing it. Trump’s success comes both because of his audacity in life and because of his refusal to play game by others’ rules. It is no surprise that in the high-media-age of the 21st Century, the new lord is a New York media-pit snake charming press baby.
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Dark . Sport. Blog is my website — come by and visit!
It will right the wrong for Congress.