Tempe police are investigating a fatal crash between a self-driving Uber car and a pedestrian.
Tempe Police says the vehicle was in autonomous mode at the time of the crash and a vehicle operator was also behind the wheel. No passengers were in the vehicle at the time.
Uber has paused self-driving operations in Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Francisco and Toronto, which is a standard move, the company says.
Bloomberg notes the woman was crossing the road outside of a crosswalk when the Uber vehicle, operating in autonomous mode under the supervision of a human safety driver, struck her, according to the Tempe Police Department.
Bicyclist or Pedestrian?
Several stories say a bicyclist was killed, others say a pedestrian. It may have been a pedestrian walking a bicycle.
Here’s the answer.
The fact remains that driverless cars have a better safety record than human-driven cars. Also, recall there was a safety driver behind the wheel who could have but didn’t take over.
Had this not involved an autonomous car, this would not be in any news.
These Tweets are from people who have the correct attitude.
This was bound to happen at some point and it is hardly surprising that Uber is the company. However, It’s highly likely no one is to blame but the woman stepping in front of a car.
Mike “Mish” Shedlock
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The texting airhead that rear-ended me a couple weeks back reinforced my deeply held view that the machine is going to win this one.
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Grumblenose, I would expect the car was aware of the lady, but if the code is supposed to assume every pedestrian is a potential accident, then the only solution would be to drive at 2-4MPH every time a pedestrian is within range.
If the lady stepped out without warning, I don’t know what any system, human or autonomous, could do. I was talking with my family about it yesterday — I was imagining a situation driving, even only 30 MPH down Michigan Ave in Chicago during a busy weekend. There will be pedestrians walking up and down both sidewalks, at intersections, and likely trying to run across the street not at crosswalks. If there is no safety in mind by the pedestrian, or is distracted and walks out into traffic, nothing will ever prevent that. Anyone in any situation can walk out in front of a car or bus at the last second and get killed without giving the driver any chance to react.
*brakes
Grumblenose – Less than one year ago I was in an accident. A lady pulled out without looking and crashed head on into me. I was lucky, only going 35 and slammed on the breaks, the car was totaled and I only sustained a wrist injury. Had I been going 65 or faster, I might not be here. If my car was an AV, it wouldn’t have made much of a difference in the outcome. Events happened too fast because of the other drivers bad choices. Tens of thousands die each year in car crashes, look it up. Should we stop people from driving? AV will reduce this number considerably. Technology builds on failures as much as successes. Again, this tragic accident stops nothing. As for me, I’m welcoming AV.
Story, with the last line being the most important:
Following yesterday’s market-moving report of a fatal accident involving a self-driving Uber car on the roads of Tempe, Arizona, legal experts immediately chimed in, saying this case presents many thorny legal issues – chief among which is the issue of who could be at fault.
Since it was the first recorded fatality involving a self-driving car, would investigators point the finger at the car’s human driver? Uber? The car’s manufacturer? Some combination of the three (or none of the above).
In the first hint at the investigation being carried out by Tempe police, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that the Tempe police chief said her preliminary investigation suggested that Uber wasn’t at fault. Police Chief Sylvia Moir described the victim, the possibly homeless 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg, as pushing a bicycle laden with plastic shopping bags when she abruptly stepped from the center media into a lane of traffic before being struck by the car.
“I suspect preliminarily it appears that the Uber would likely not be at fault in this accident, either,” Moir said.
Moir added that she “wouldn’t rule out” the possibility of charges against the backup driver in the vehicle, even though she said it appeared that neither a human driver or an autonomous car could’ve reasonably been expected to avoid the victim, who was caught on video abruptly stepping into the roadway into oncoming traffic.
A few months back Mish had a bad experience picking up a rental a car, and he made a big point of saying that he will *never* deal with that company again. In the US, you buy a ladder, there are warnings plastered all over it to make sure you don’t do something stupid and so that the ladder company can avoid liability. You spill a hot coffee on yourself while driving – you can sue someone. But, when a person minding their own business is run over by an autonomous car, Mish is concerned by which tweeters have the right attitude – yup sounds right.
Yes autonomous cars will get better. Yes they will replace human controlled cars. But being in the technology business I see how systems are tested and rolled out and called back and tweaked, and how QA fails, and how decisions are made, and I’d like to know how THIS test car ever made it out onto the streets …
Great points. But people like Mish who are fundamentally anti-working class will always sing the praises of such systems no matter how bad, unreliable or dangerous they are. Not to mention the societal impacts of the huge numbers of unemployed people that will result.
I wish you had a submit button instead of the enter button for submittal. No paragraph mode…………….Driverless cars will only work in environments where there are no humans whose choice of action can conflict with the driverless car’s ability to interpret and react to such choices. We had an accident a number of years ago where a trucker, fell asleep, and plowed into standstill traffic, killing a number of people. When this happens with driverless trucks the outrage will directed towards the industry as a whole.
Considering the 2nd amendment was put in to guarantee the people’s ability to guarantee their freedom of speech from an oppressive govt I have not problem with “assault” rifles and most of the people I know do not either.
It’s most likely the pedestrians fault, but this is still bad for furthering the use of autonomous vehicles. There’s going to be a battle between what the voters want and what industry wants. Industry wants autonomous vehicles, but the public doesn’t. This is similar to the gun debate. Most people want to ban assault rifles, but the gun industry pays for a lot of political ads.
Looks like it wasn’t uber’s fault, the lady walked into the car without notice. This isn’t going to stop anything.
“The fact remains that driverless cars have a better safety record than human-driven cars.”
Come back and say that when driverless cars have logged miles that are at least 10 percent of what human drivers do.
“Also, recall there was a safety driver behind the wheel who could have but didn’t take over.”
What a pathetic attempt to blame the human. The human was expected to take over only when the computer failed. In such situations, the reaction time would be slower than what it would have been in the absence of the automated system.
Why are you so anti-people and anti working people and anti American working people all the time????
“Waymo’s vehicles have driven 4m miles on public roads; the only accidents they have been involved in while driving autonomously were caused by humans in other vehicles.”
They were caused by the INTERACTION between humans and the AV. Virtually all traffic accidents, short of straight up vehicular crime, are caused by complexity-emergent interactions. Not one guy being baaaaad-baaaad-call-the-ambulance-chasers-to-save-us-all, while everyone else are “perfect.”
I agree.
At least on the trucking side, it looks like the A.V.s have someone sitting in the driver’s seat. Make no mistake, that’s only to shift liability in case of an accident.
Don’t expect any data. This is a belief of religious fervor for him.
Sadly, the pedestrian was dead and therefore unable to Tweet the “correct attitude”.
Spent a lot of years debugging complex high performance systems. Rules of thumb: 1.Don’t ship before you’ve killed every single bug you can find inhouse. 2.Ship and expect an explosion of bugs you couldn’t find inhouse. 3.If you don’t weaken, you can cut the failure rate in half every 18 months. 4.You’ll get two cycles of cutting the failure rate in half before you have to ship the next product and start all over again. If you fall off this forced march path, don’t worry about it; your troubles are over…your competitor(s) have won. AV is not plagued by throwaway; they’re going to win.
How do you know this when we pretty much have zero self driving cars on the road yet to have data to work from? Someone is a cubicle somewhere just made up these numbers.
I notice the insurance companies are betting on the computer: They swag 21,700 lives and $450 Billion saved annually. These people are not bad with odds and numbers…
First of all, when we are talking that “lots of driver-less cars will be on the road soon”, are we talking fully autonomous with NO driver at all? Or are we talking cars that drive themselves but with a “safety driver”? If its the former, no way in 2 years. I do not see by 2020 being able to get a ride in a fully autonomous car with NO DRIVER that picks me up at my house and takes me to the airport. Navigating city streets, potholes, kids running into traffic, 4 way stops with no lights, etc…. There are a BILLION little things that go into this! This takes a shit ton of technology! People are reading the SD car company press releases and taking it as gospel. There are basically NONE of these fully operational on the road yet they will be everywhere in 2 yrs??? And Mish, how can you say that they are way safer then human drivers? There is NO DATA to back this up! There aren’t really ANY self driving cars driving around in large numbers yet, but you claim they are safer then human drivers? Is this because that’s what the white paper on the car technology says ??? Without any proof in the field? You need a lot more data to make this claim.
Almost no chance this adds 5 years
Add 5 years to your driver-less car projections, Mish. This isn’t gong to be a smooth transition.
The question of the adoption of self-driving cars has little to do with safety and/or economy, but everything to do with culpability. Society wants a criminal and victim in all cases. The accused, whoever they are, can not “hide” behind autonomy. There are 1.3 million lawyers in the United States and they must be fed! What the heck will the lawyers do if there is no longer gain to be made from automobile infractions! What the about the cascading financial effect on the Department of Corrections, County Courthouses, Police Departments?
The incumbents and their lawyers are always right…at first. Henry Ford’s first business venture was in San Francisco, selling booster engines to local carriage companies, getting heavy loads up steep hills. It was a total bust: Noisy, scared the horses, sued left and right, etc. He packed up and went back to Detroit, restarting by just trying to put his little engine on a carriage without the horse. That’s where I think we are with autonomous driving.
https://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21737425-foreseen-and-unforeseen-consequences-self-driving-cars-will-profoundly-change-way
Mar 1, 2018 – Waymo’s vehicles have driven 4m miles on public roads; the only accidents they have been involved in while driving autonomously were caused by humans in other vehicles. AVs have superhuman perception and can slam on the brakes in less than a millisecond, compared with a second or so for human …
Where are the safety statistics on autonomous vehicles?
Yes: A forced-choice hypothetical scenario constructed by a lawyer to train other lawyers in how to dodge difficult, common sense decisions when confronted with one. Throw the switch, dammit.
Tempe Police says the vehicle was in autonomous mode at the time of the crash and a vehicle operator was also behind the wheel. Maybe vehicle operator was on facebook at the same time. Both crashed.
Now there’s an optimist. An even better plan: Stay off the spot you’re destined to die on. You’ll live forever.
“But human drivers kill just 1.16 people for every 100 million miles driven. Waymo and Uber and all the rest combined are nowhere near covering that kind of distance, and they’ve already killed one.”
““This is another major illustration that the technology we’re talking about is evolving over time and not necessarily road ready for wide deployment,” says Bryan Reimer, who studies human behavior and driverless vehicles at MIT.”
https://www.wired.com/story/uber-self-driving-car-crash-arizona-pedestrian/
I’m not going to say that the 1st quote proves driverless cars are less safe but Mish also has no business claiming they are safer at this time.
This, along with his statement that the pedestrian was “highly likely” to be the one to blame (poor taste), comes across as him digging in his heels in his belief he is right about how quickly this stuff will be ready.
Absolutely; would you not?
Mish said “The fact remains that driverless cars have a better safety record than human-driven cars.” Do you have numbers on that Mish? Maybe something along the lines of deaths/miles driven?
A friend of mine killed a kid on a bike in Colorado some years back. The kid was riding east, barely upright, while waiting for a noisy, accelerating 18 wheeler going west to get past so he could turn west too. He likely never heard my friend’s pickup approaching from his left rear and whipped left into the pickup with no warning. A.J Foyt in his prime couldn’t have avoided hitting him. I’ve thought about that accident for years now. I think I finally see something that might have prevented it or at least have minimized the damage done: Autonomous driving.
who’s at fault is the ONLY question because it’s ALL about the money. and with a plethora of sensors including surround video, it won’t be difficult to determine the at fault party.
even at this relatively early stage in the autonomous vehicle, my money’s on the pedestrian/bicyclist being at fault (and i’m *not* a betting man).
Depends entirely on whether we’re Post-Singularity. If so, I’d expect the autopilot to branch to, “I don’t have a clue who this guy is; he hijacked me two miles back.”
But even at a leisurely 2 G bit clock rate, the algorithm can probe over 600 million alternative option paths, picking most likely in each case, while I’m trying to signal my foot to begin moving toward the brake pedal.
A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
No one stops this train. Self-driving cars in 2020.
It’s obviously a group suicide; hold the wheel straight and decelerate asap
“Who’s next in the Tort lineup, the code writer?”—AWC
SILLY RABBIT, you’ve forgotten Capitol Hill’s TRIX to maximize Corporate earnings: “Loophole would protect self-driving car companies from lawsuits”
http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/14/technology/self-driving-car-senate-loophole/index.html
As a pedestrian, I have almost gotten hit by not paying attention. I backed up off a ledge once taking a picture. Fell several feet. Adjusting my radio the other day, I easily could have slammed into the rear of the car in front of me. My knob has a flaw – sometimes it operates in the reverse direction, I was looking at it and not paying attention. This would not happen with self-driving.
I have come close to running someone down in a crosswalk at night because they are wearing dark clothes in a not well lit area and just walk into the street, not realizing that even at 20mph, it takes some amount of time to recognize the need to stop and then to do so. Too many people don’t think.
Did the driver have any time to react? People do dumb things. Most of the time it does not matter.
“The real question here is WHY the human overseer did not take control of the car in time? In all probability, the person was blissing out, texting or playing video games and not paying attention to the road, as they should have been. If anyone is to be held responsible on the car end, it is this person. “
You shouldn’t think so hard. If a pedestrian or bicyclist violates the law then the responsibility for any problems that happens rests with them. If you suddenly dart out from between cars, then you are at wrong.
I once hit a bike rider coming out of a gas station onto a one way street. I was looking in the direction traffic was coming (from the left) to turn right. As I started to do forward, a bike rider came from the opposite direction and I wound up knocking them about 10 feet out into the road. Luckily for them, the traffic was far enough away that the person did not get run over. Their bike was destroyed though. A police report was filed and I was assured that this was all on the bike riders shoulders because they were riding against traffic. The rider found a lawyer and tried to sue me but the case was thrown out of court as again, being the bike riders fault.
The real question here is WHY the human overseer did not take control of the car in time? In all probability, the person was blissing out, texting or playing video games and not paying attention to the road, as they should have been. If anyone is to be held responsible on the car end, it is this person.
In the long term these cars will be safer. And the stock market and housing will be at their right pricing. But the short term is where we live. Do people get to know that Uber is testing on particular streets? What is the exorbitant penalty that Uber and the car company and the software company have to pay?