Anti-Vax Talk Show Host Phil Valentine Dies, Here’s His “Educated Decision”

Phil believed he previously had Covid and thus was immune. 

Audio Excerpts

  • The Left freak out over vaccination holdouts.
  • I am making an educated decision on whether to get vaccinated.
  • So far, so good. Why in the world would I get the vaccine with a 99.5% survival rate?
  • Now that i’ve had it. I’m immune.
  • I took the [CDC’s] I got my Covid vaccine picture and I marked through the word vaccine. 
  • And I said doing my patriotic duty for natural herd immunity. I got my Covid-19 [laughter by Phil].

Vaxman 

Yahoo News reports “On his radio show Valentine would often sing a song called ‘Vaxman, a parody of The Beatles’s song ‘Taxman.’

Plea to Look at the “Dadgum” Data

He regrets not being more adamant about getting the vaccine. Look at the dadgum data,” his brother Mark Valentine said, as reported by NBC News.

More adamant about getting vaccinated?!? How could he be any more adamant about not getting vaccinated?

What about the theory “I got my Covid-19 [laughter]” so I am immune?

What About Ivermectin?

Apnews comments on Ivermectin.

Phil Valentine also said that he was “taking vitamin D like crazy” and had found a doctor who agreed to prescribe ivermectin, a drug primarily used to treat parasites in animals.”

OK Ivermectin has known medical uses in humans mainly for parasites. But self prescription to prevent Covid is at best experimental.  

Data on vaccinations is crystal clear. 

Message From a Libertarian

https://twitter.com/ydeigin/status/1429670595457961984

I’m a Libertarian. I don’t like being told what to do,” said the 53 year-old patient who died 9 days later.

Patriotic Duty

Congratulations to everyone getting killed doing their patriotic duty while simultaneously spreading Covid so that others have a better chance of doing their patriotic duty too.

This is the problem isn’t it?

Does your right to not get vaccinated infringe on the rights of others to not be infected by you?

Does your right to not get vaccinated infringe on the rights of others whose insurance rates will surely go up because you do not get vaccinated? 

Should those who refuse to get vaccinated also refuse to go out in public so they do not inadvertently spread the disease?

If the unvaccinated patriots do get sick, should they also refuse to go to hospitals where they risk spreading the disease to others while simultaneously causing insurance rates to go up?

Struggles at Drawing the Line

  • I struggle with the idea of talk show hosts promoting Ivermectin while rejecting as experimental vaccinations that tens of millions have taken safely.
  • More importantly, I struggle with precisely where these self-proclaimed patriots and freedom fighters should and do draw the line about their rights vs the rights of others.

I am not being facetious or flippant. It is a very serious issue about where to draw the line. 

A reader commented: “I have a nasty cataract in my left eye that I have been trying to get removed for sometime. Once again I hear from the doctor’s office no elective surgeries are being done. Trying to obtain routine medical procedures here in Florida during this Covid debacle has been daunting.”   

Vaccinations are proven to slow the spread of serious cases. Hospitals are clogged with severe cases of Covid, mosty from unvaccinated, needlessly draining supplies from others in need. ICUs are at capacity also due to people on a fool’s mission against the data.

If the unvaccinated only posed a risk to themselves, it would be one thing. But that is not what the data suggests. The more people that get Covid the more mutations occur, the more hospitalizations happen, etc. 

Furthermore, it is well within the rights of employers to require vaccinations and well within the rights of public health officials to mandate vaccinations in hospitals and nursing homes. 

The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that schools can mandate vaccines. Hospitals seem to fit right in.  

I wish more companies would require vaccinations. 

How can Libertarians tell companies they have no right to set terms of employment? 

If the alleged patriots don’t like it, it is their right to quit and stay home.

Don’t Like It? Stay Home

 “Dadgum” Data

Struggles with the line aside, please let’s discuss the “dadgum data”. 

  1. Dear Anti-Vaxxers Let’s Discuss the Best Covid Data That Exists Anywhere
  2. Covid Vaccination Rates vs Death Rates Daily and Last 7 Days 

OK, weight and age are factors. So what? 

The dadgum data overwhelmingly suggest Valentine would be alive today if only he paid attention to the dadgum data.

And it’s not just about the cumulative 628,000 deaths so far. Countless more will be impacted for the rest of their lives with Covid symptoms, lung impairments, etc., that never go away.

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TheCaptain
TheCaptain
2 years ago
If you are vaxed then you are safe from the unvaxed.  So thank you very much for thinking you can vote on my medical decisions but no thank you.  I can think for myself and it is my right to make my OWN medical decisions.  If it doesn’t work out for me, so be it.  We are all dying from this disease called old age anyway.  And by the way, when you finally realize that the vax attacks your immune system as claimed by Dr. Robert Malone and Dr. Luc Montagnier, so be that as well.  Those are men of science who are not controlled by government money.  I’ll take their word over Fauci every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Billy
Billy
2 years ago
Mish,
Do you mind running a story that explains the process that a doctor goes through with his patient about the risk/reward before deciding to get vaccinated or not? I’m finding that most of my friends are rather confused about this and there is an alarming rate of people who never had that discussion. I even heard of doctors who didn’t even do proper research before offering to vaccinate. Those are the type of doctors who who blindly trust their big pharma reps. We all know those are the types of doctors that led us to the opioid addiction epidemic with Purdue Pharma. The same one that exposed the FDA getting paid off, ruining trust with many citizens. 
Billy
Billy
2 years ago
A UK study came out with a range of 19-40 people per million are experiencing heart issues from the vax. I find this number far different than that. 
I personally know about 200-300 people who are vaccinated. 1 who is 49 years old gets an elevated heart rate of around 180bpm as soon as he does any moderate cardio. 
I person who is 53 who received the 1st shot and had a rapid heart rate for over 8 hours. She refused to get any more shots. 
One person who experienced similar symptoms and is scared to get the booster 
Another (I know it’s extremely rare and I confirmed it with an eye surgeon  who ran a report in a database) who lost 100% vision in one eye and could only see 20% in the other. 
I did research a Korean guy who had to retire to to the same problem. 
There also seems to be a few pro soccer players who have experienced major heart issues after getting vaccinated. 
So why isn’t this being talked about in a non-biased way for us to discuss?
Billy
Billy
2 years ago
Can someone please tell me this statistic?
What percentage of people in the hospital who tested positive and died of a different cause?
Informed
Informed
2 years ago
What did they do to prevent the manufactured covid-19 virus? No isolation and no zinc that can block the mRNA pathway when zinc is in the cell. Who says you can’t get sick twice from same virus?
What really peas me off is that this argument closely follow mainstream lies say unvaccinated are causing problems. 
Look at other forms of media such as medical experts including inventor of mRNA. They all indicate vaccination has potential killing of population over long term. The variants are from the vaccinated population trials Brazil India etc… and the new variants which will be endless.
What sense is there to vaccinate kids? The statistics as you ended with support the argument that this demographic should not be vaccinated.
Just lookup dr Mercola and dr Vladimir Zelenograd on bitchute for a balanced argument.
Furthermore vaccination passports is the next step in this politically motivated control on the masses globally. They take one small step at a time until we’re all in regret of choices we’re coerced to take. What happened to freedom first. There are many ways to skin a cat not just vaccination.
Morr314
Morr314
2 years ago
Bud: ‘You can’t come in here!’

Lou: ‘Why not?’

Bud: ‘Well because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But I’m not sick.’

Bud: ‘It doesn’t matter.’

Lou: ‘Well, why does that guy get to go in?’

Bud: ‘Because he’s vaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But he’s sick!’

Bud: ‘It’s alright. Everyone in here is vaccinated.’

Lou: ‘Wait a minute. Are you saying everyone in there is vaccinated?’

Bud: ‘Yes.’

Lou: ‘So then why can’t I go in there if everyone is vaccinated?’

Bud: ‘Because you’ll make them sick.’

Lou: ‘How will I make them sick if I’m NOT sick and they’re vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But they’re vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘But they can still get sick.’

Lou: ‘So what the heck does the vaccine do?’

Bud: ‘It vaccinates.’

Lou: ‘So vaccinated people can’t spread covid?’

Bud: ‘Oh no. They can spread covid just as easily as an unvaccinated person.’

Lou: ‘I don’t even know what I’m saying anymore. Look. I’m not sick.

Bud: ‘Ok.’

Lou: ‘And the guy you let in IS sick.’

Bud: ‘That’s right.’

Lou: ‘And everybody in there can still get sick even though they’re vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘Certainly.’

Lou: ‘So why can’t I go in again?’

Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘I’m not asking who’s vaccinated or not!’

Bud: ‘I’m just telling you how it is.’

Lou: ‘Nevermind. I’ll just put on my mask.’

Bud: ‘That’s fine.’

Lou: ‘Now I can go in?’

Bud: ‘Absolutely not?’

Lou: ‘But I have a mask!’

Bud: ‘Doesn’t matter.’

Lou: ‘I was able to come in here yesterday with a mask.’

Bud: ‘I know.’

Lou: So why can’t I come in here today with a mask? ….If you say ‘because I’m unvaccinated’ again, I’ll break your arm.’

Bud: ‘Take it easy buddy.’

Lou: ‘So the mask is no good anymore.’

Bud: ‘No, it’s still good.’

Lou: ‘But I can’t come in?’

Bud: ‘Correct.’

Lou: ‘Why not?’

Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But the mask prevents the germs from getting out.’

Bud: ‘Yes, but people can still catch your germs.’

Lou: ‘But they’re all vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘Yes, but they can still get sick.’

Lou: ‘But I’m not sick!!’

Bud: ‘You can still get them sick.’

Lou: ‘So then masks don’t work!’

Bud: ‘Masks work quite well.’

Lou: ‘So how in the heck can I get vaccinated people sick if I’m not sick and masks work?’

Bud: ‘Third base.

Forgive them Father for they do not know what they have done.
Categories: 
prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
The huge problem that pro-vax Leftists have is that no one is ever going to trust government again after all the lying they’ve been doing and continue to do. The CDC simply REFUSES to report vaccine breakthrough cases in any meaningful way – how is it even possible to know if the vaccines are working? The Leftist media (i.e. most of it) refuses to acknowledge facts or data that goes against their pro-vax ideology. They claim to follow the science, but only science they approve of politically. Any other science is ignored or labelled “denialism” or some such. 
As far as I am aware there has only been one 6-month, double-blind clinical trial for a Covid vaccine completed – the Pfizer one. And in this study more vaccinated people died than in the placebo group! There was no mortality benefit whatsoever. This is simply a fact, but did the Leftist media report it? Of course not.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
“And in this study more vaccinated people died than in the placebo group!”
Math-challenged anti-vaxxer posing as a conservative.
Begs the question, if you even have half a brain.
I mean, the question you’re willfully ignoring, which I will now state for your benefit.
“Died of what?”
Because sooner or later everybody dies of something, and it is certainly true that the COVID vaccine does not confer immortality. 
“Pfizer’s study states that fourteen people in the placebo group and 15 people in the vaccinated group died before January 2021. The vast majority of the deaths were unrelated to COVID-19. Only two people in the placebo group died of COVID-19 and one person in the vaccinated group died of COVID-19 pneumonia, according to additional Pfizer data obtained by The Associated Press. The rest of the deaths were due to other factors, including heart disease and heart attacks.”
Good try.
GTFO and don’t pass go, don’t collect $200.
 
prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Of course the vaxxer Lefty commies try to dilute the negative results of the clinical study. If you could interpret double-blind studies in the way you suggest then the study becomes completely pointless because you are simply interpreting the results the way you want them to be.
Another, equally plausible, interpretation would be that the heart attack deaths in the vaccination group were caused by the vaccines.
The entire purpose of double-blind studies is to (try to) take away biases and this type of manipulation of results. But if more people die after vaccination than without vaccination – of whatever cause – that’s a useful thing to know.
prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
The Left had a huge collective orgasm when Valentine died. I could feel the Earth shaking from my apartment. I heard Valentine’s death reported on NPR and the reporter could hardly hold back his exaltation. He was absolutely thrilled.
What’s next?  Stories about people who didn’t wear a mask and DIED?  Stories about people who believe in Freedom that joined the military and DIED? 
But definitely no stories about the thousands who were vaccinated and DIED!  And no stories about the MILLIONS of unvaccinated people who caught Covid and LIVED!
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
 COVID  doesn’t care what your politics are….and I don’t either. It’s completely irrelevant to virology, epidemiology and public health.  Get a clue.
prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
That’s my point exactly. Covid, the flu, vaccination, whatever, can kill anyone of any politics. The Leftist media’s gleeful exploitation of Valentine’s death to make a cheap political point is disgusting.
Dr. Odyssey
Dr. Odyssey
2 years ago

 The EudraVigilance database  of the European Medicines Agency reports that through August 14, 2021 there are 21,766 deaths and 2,074,410 injuries reported following injections of four experimental COVID-19 shots:

From the total of injuries recorded, half of them (1,021,867 ) are serious injuries.

Seriousness provides information on the suspected undesirable effect; it can be classified as ‘serious’ if it corresponds to a medical occurrence that results in death, is life-threatening, requires inpatient hospitalisation, results in another medically important condition, or prolongation of existing hospitalisation, results in persistent or significant disability or incapacity, or is a congenital anomaly/birth defect.”

 

Since we have started furnishing this data, others from Europe have also calculated the numbers and confirmed the totals.*

Here is the summary data through August 14, 2021.

Total reactions for the experimental mRNA vaccine Tozinameran (code BNT162b2,Comirnaty) from BioNTechPfizer – 10,616 deathand 833,498 injuries to 14/08/2021

  • 22,844   Blood and lymphatic system disorders incl. 135 deaths
  • 22,132   Cardiac disorders incl. 1,591 deaths
  • 208        Congenital, familial and genetic disorders incl. 16 deaths
  • 10,953   Ear and labyrinth disorders incl. 8 deaths
  • 563        Endocrine disorders incl. 5 deaths
  • 12,887   Eye disorders incl. 24 deaths
  • 75,021   Gastrointestinal disorders incl. 454 deaths
  • 220,575 General disorders and administration site conditions incl. 3,013 deaths
  • 893        Hepatobiliary disorders incl. 49 deaths
  • 9,094     Immune system disorders incl. 58 deaths
  • 27,018   Infections and infestations incl. 1037 deaths
  • 10,454   Injury, poisoning and procedural complications incl. 158 deaths
  • 20,892   Investigations incl. 342 deaths
  • 6,172     Metabolism and nutrition disorders incl. 188 deaths
  • 112,364 Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders incl. 133 deaths
  • 605        Neoplasms benign, malignant and unspecified (incl cysts and polyps) incl. 51 deaths
  • 148,477 Nervous system disorders incl. 1,171 deaths
  • 910        Pregnancy, puerperium and perinatal conditions incl. 29 deaths
  • 152        Product issues incl. 1 death
  • 14,950   Psychiatric disorders incl. 141 deaths
  • 2,763     Renal and urinary disorders incl. 169 deaths
  • 10,909   Reproductive system and breast disorders incl. 3 deaths
  • 36,913   Respiratory, thoracic and mediastinal disorders incl. 1,268 deaths
  • 40,358   Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders incl. 92 deaths
  • 1,416     Social circumstances incl. 13 deaths
  • 651        Surgical and medical procedures incl. 28 deaths
  • 23,324   Vascular disorders incl. 439 deaths

Total reactions for the experimental mRNA vaccine mRNA-1273 (CX-024414) from Moderna – 5,600 deathand 229,430 injuries to 14/08/2021

  • 4,341     Blood and lymphatic system disorders incl. 49 deaths
  • 6,744     Cardiac disorders incl. 614 deaths
  • 89           Congenital, familial and genetic disorders incl. 1 deaths
  • 2,916     Ear and labyrinth disorders
  • 179        Endocrine disorders incl. 1 death
  • 3,579     Eye disorders incl. 13 deaths
  • 20,063   Gastrointestinal disorders incl. 205 deaths
  • 61,894   General disorders and administration site conditions incl. 2,232 deaths
  • 372        Hepatobiliary disorders incl. 20 deaths
  • 1,926     Immune system disorders incl. 10 deaths
  • 6,597     Infections and infestations incl. 340 deaths
  • 4,944     Injury, poisoning and procedural complications incl. 105 deaths
  • 4,556     Investigations incl. 107 deaths
  • 2,230     Metabolism and nutrition disorders incl. 129 deaths
  • 28,909   Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders incl. 111 deaths
  • 275        Neoplasms benign, malignant and unspecified (incl cysts and polyps) incl. 29 deaths
  • 40,922   Nervous system disorders incl. 572 deaths
  • 463        Pregnancy, puerperium and perinatal conditions incl. 5 deaths
  • 46           Product issues
  • 4,510     Psychiatric disorders incl. 96 deaths
  • 1,364     Renal and urinary disorders incl. 93 deaths
  • 2,012     Reproductive system and breast disorders incl. 2 deaths
  • 10,046   Respiratory, thoracic and mediastinal disorders incl. 528 deaths
  • 12,375   Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders incl. 47 deaths
  • 966        Social circumstances incl. 20 deaths
  • 732        Surgical and medical procedures incl. 56 deaths
  • 6,380     Vascular disorders incl. 215 deaths

Total reactions for the experimental vaccine AZD1222/VAXZEVRIA (CHADOX1 NCOV-19) from Oxford/ AstraZeneca4,740 deathand 947,675 injuries to 14/08/2021

  • 11,297   Blood and lymphatic system disorders incl. 194 deaths
  • 15,757   Cardiac disorders incl. 550 deaths
  • 137        Congenital familial and genetic disorders incl. 3 deaths
  • 11,013   Ear and labyrinth disorders
  • 457        Endocrine disorders incl. 4 deaths
  • 16,608   Eye disorders incl. 19 deaths
  • 93,703   Gastrointestinal disorders incl. 241 deaths
  • 249,973 General disorders and administration site conditions incl. 1,166 deaths
  • 770        Hepatobiliary disorders incl. 44 deaths
  • 3,770     Immune system disorders incl. 19 deaths
  • 23,056   Infections and infestations incl. 298 deaths
  • 10,571   Injury poisoning and procedural complications incl. 130 deaths
  • 20,678   Investigations incl. 108 deaths
  • 11,336   Metabolism and nutrition disorders incl. 65 deaths
  • 144,069 Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders incl. 66 deaths
  • 477        Neoplasms benign malignant and unspecified (incl cysts and polyps) incl. 15 deaths
  • 198,450 Nervous system disorders incl. 755 deaths
  • 391        Pregnancy puerperium and perinatal conditions incl. 9 deaths
  • 146        Product issues incl. 1 death
  • 17,784   Psychiatric disorders incl. 40 deaths
  • 3,449     Renal and urinary disorders incl. 45 deaths
  • 12,080   Reproductive system and breast disorders incl. 1 death
  • 33,058   Respiratory thoracic and mediastinal disorders incl. 560 deaths
  • 43,592   Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders incl. 31 deaths
  • 1,182     Social circumstances incl. 6 deaths
  • 1,040     Surgical and medical procedures incl. 21 deaths
  • 22,831   Vascular disorders incl. 349 deaths

Total reactions for the experimental COVID-19 vaccine JANSSEN (AD26.COV2.S) from Johnson & Johnson: – 810 deaths and 63,807 injuries to 14/08/2021

  • 585        Blood and lymphatic system disorders incl. 24 deaths
  • 988        Cardiac disorders incl. 103 deaths
  • 24           Congenital, familial and genetic disorders
  • 425        Ear and labyrinth disorders
  • 27           Endocrine disorders incl. 1 death
  • 836        Eye disorders incl. 3 deaths
  • 6,041     Gastrointestinal disorders incl. 28 deaths
  • 16,787   General disorders and administration site conditions incl. 201 deaths
  • 80           Hepatobiliary disorders incl. 7 deaths
  • 260        Immune system disorders incl. 5 deaths
  • 1,086     Infections and infestations incl. 27 deaths
  • 578        Injury, poisoning and procedural complications incl. 11 deaths
  • 3,319     Investigations incl. 56 deaths
  • 341        Metabolism and nutrition disorders incl. 13 deaths
  • 10,533   Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders incl. 19 deaths
  • 26           Neoplasms benign, malignant and unspecified (incl cysts and polyps) incl. 2 deaths
  • 13,528   Nervous system disorders incl. 101 deaths
  • 23           Pregnancy, puerperium and perinatal conditions incl. 1 death
  • 19           Product issues
  • 794        Psychiatric disorders incl. 9 deaths
  • 230        Renal and urinary disorders incl. 9 deaths
  • 484        Reproductive system and breast disorders incl. 3 deaths
  • 2,155     Respiratory, thoracic and mediastinal disorders incl. 64 deaths
  • 1,893     Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders incl. 3 deaths
  • 164        Social circumstances incl. 3 deaths
  • 490        Surgical and medical procedures incl. 31 deaths
  • 2,091     Vascular disorders incl. 86 deaths
FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Odyssey
Collateral damage sonny….all for the Greater Good !   …whatever that may be… apart from bank account related issues …
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Odyssey
Do you people just not get it, or are you desperately searching for something to support your bias?
Because this kind of reporting is just like VAERS in the US. None, or almost none of these deaths are attributed to the vaccinations, Neither are the reports of injury/morbidity.
These are just gross numbers of people who have died or reported some medical condition  since getting the jab. 
Can’t you understand that people get sick a die for a lot of reasons other than getting vaccinated?
No causation. Not even any real correlation, in most of these cases.
Bullshit.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Just because the data is unverified doesn’t mean that it doesn’t serve a purpose. Yes, it’s true that no conclusions can be drawn from unverified data. That’s a given. But the data does have a point. Researchers look through the data to see trends. If they see a  trend that indicates that there might be a specific problem with the vaccine, they can then initiate valid medical research into that issue to see it is an actual problem. Thus, for example, say the VAERS (or European equivalent) indicates that there might be a higher incidence of myocarditis, they can initiate a double blind study, with one group being vaccinated, and another not, and check for the incidence of myocarditis.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Noted.
I didn’t say the gross numbers aren’t worth collecting, just that they don’t tell the real story about morbidity/mortality.
Dr. Odyssey
Dr. Odyssey
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
I don’t have a horse in this race. I am not antivax.
I am in service in a private chronic pain clinic in Lombardy Italy for 30 years.
Spring of 2020 was a disaster.
We are now trying to figure out how to manage the walking wounded from vaccine reactions.
These people are very specific in their recounting of their time line of onset of symptoms.
They are not lying.
Yes, from my perspective the numbers are not huge, but there are new people every day so the accumulated pool of the damaged continues to grow.
Unfortunately most of them I pass on to the neurologist for documentation of their case .
Who will compensate them for their suffering?
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Odyssey
Life is suffering, and when life ends, suffering ends. If that weren’t true you wouldn’t have a job. Yes, I know that there are side effects from the vaccines, even deaths. But in public health, you have to acknowledge those and look to the greater good. 
Thank you for what you do, which is a lot, and very  meaningful.
As you know, many people in this world are in constant, chronic pain. Skeletal damage leading to neuropathic pain. Inflammatory diseases from auto-immune causes. Even bad teeth, which is where I try to help. 
There will be some people who need long term care due to vaccination issues. But if we don’’t vaccinate we get a lot more dead people. 
prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
“But if we don’’t vaccinate we get a lot more dead people”  You say that with such certainty. But how can you, or anyone, know?
Are you and all the other vaxxers going to take responsibility if it turns out the vaccines cause cancers or serious auto-immune diseases down the road?  Because there has been no long-term testing of these drugs. None. We haven’t even done long-term testing on similar drugs, because these vaccines are completely new and radically different to anything we’ve ever used before. And now governments are actually mandating people get injected. Jeez!
BillinCA
BillinCA
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Odyssey
This is GREAT data!  So, *rough* math says that the chances of death from the various vaccines is 0.0018% based on approximately 500 million doses administered in the European Union (10,616 deaths from ~500,000,000 vaccine does).  This is compared to a 1% chance of death with Covid.  Of course, this doesn’t account for comorbidities related to Covid, but also doesn’t account for comorbidities related to the vaccine deaths either and they are sure to exist.  This also excludes injuries, acute and chronic, from both Covid and the vaccine.
FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
…I just read that Israel (the Pfizer pioneer) recommends boosters for all above  30 years old jabbed ones…. LOL! Tell me again that the sloppily concocted makeshift poison shots are ‘working’…apart from outrageously bloating pharma goons bankaccounts of course ….
Lip
Lip
2 years ago
Hypothesis: “The vaccines prevents, or significantly reduces, infections amongst the population.”
Prediction 1: “Countries with high vaccination rates will have noticeably lower infection rates and curves.”
Prediction 2: “Proportion of the vaccinated testing positive would be lower than the proportion of vaccinated people in the population.”
Data from the UK, Israel and Iceland disproves Prediction 1. They have very high rates of infection. No different to when there were few people vaccinated.
Data from the UK and Israel disproves Prediction 2. UK and especially the Israeli data shows that the proportion of people testing positive are the same as their proportion in the population. (UK 2 Aug – 15 Aug) (Israel 6 Aug).
Conclusion: Data does not support the hypothesis that vaccines significantly reduces the infection rate.
The data does support the hypothesis that the vaccines reduce serious outcomes. Roughly a 65% reduction in the UK (2-15 August). I took the period 2-15 Augusts (Time between technical brief 20 and 21) as the vaccination rate in the UK was fairly stable at the time.
Unless you can show that the predictions derived from the hypothesis is incorrect, or that the data does in fact not contradict the predictions, then it does not matter whether or not you have a perfect explanation for why vaccines should reduce infections. It has been falsified.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Lip
“Unless you can show that the predictions derived from the hypothesis is incorrect, or that the data does in fact not contradict the predictions, then it does not matter whether or not you have a perfect explanation for why vaccines should reduce infections.”
How about comparing apples with oranges, which is exactly what you are doing by comparing the peak numbers with the new delta numbers, which is four times as a infectious as the original. 
In the UK, the current infection rate is not much more than half the peak. Although delta is still a big problem, it looks to have peaked already and they are containing it, although the curve for delta is going to be wider, once again because it is much more contagious, and will be harder to drive down.
Iceland and Israel are cherry-picked,  Good try but no cigar. 
Iceland staved off the worst of the first wave by doing the world’s most thorough job of testing. and Israel did much the same thing, and even closed their borders during the first wave. Low numbers on the first wave make both countries look  worse now, but the current numbers are pretty good considering the RO for delta.
More “what-about” bullshit. 
FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Yours is a good try too, but no cigar either !  In the UK 90% of the above 18 have been vaxxed ! (fck why do I have black fonts all of a sudden?) and according to you ‘the current infection rate is not more than half the peak’. What does it actually say about the poison shots ?  THEY SUCK !
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels
Math challenged all-caps madman.
Of course they’re vaxxed. Nine out of ten UK citizens now tests positive for some level of antibodies . There aren’t many left who aren’t either vaxxed or recovered. It just follows from that that new infections have to come from the vaxxed. It’s the same phenomenon we saw with the outbreak of delta here in Massachusetts in July.
More crap.
FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
It ‘s obvious, all numbers not suiting the ‘vaxxed for life’ are now called ‘crap’ and ‘bullshit’! 
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels
No, just the really stupid ones.
My arguments actually often make sense, and when I’m wrong, I’m happy to admit it. Unlike yours, which reek of bias, and never actually make any sense at all, when examined closely. And are unassailable, to hear you tell it.
The only subject people are actually dumber on than money……is medicine. Everybody thinks they know something about COVID, but that is usually not the case. The sh*t in these comments is piled up higher than the barn. Time to clear some of it out with a front-end loader.
Lip
Lip
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Iceland and Israel are cherry-picked,  Good try but no cigar.
Israel has the best data. The data are reported in 10 year age groups for vaccination status, hospital attendence, severe illness in hospital and death.
Israeli data, for all age groups above 20 years of age, essentially show that there is no reduction in proportion of vaccinated people testing positive and ending up in the hospital as compared to their proportion in the general population. Ergo, for delta, it does not significantly reduce infections. They were the guinea pigs for the Pfizer vaccines.
The UK data is at least broken up into above 50 and below 50. They show the same. No significant reduction likelihood of infection.
Iceland is, as the other two, highly vaccinated and undergoing delta outbreak.
What all three show is no real effect on the spread of infection. The vaccines are not effective enough to prevent covid from spreading. You may argue that delta is significantly more infectious. But that does not change the apparent fact that the vaccines will not stop delta from spreading.
What Israel and UK show is that there is no reduction in the proportion of vaccinated that test positive versus their proportion in the general population.
Iceland staved off the worst of the first wave by doing the world’s most
thorough job of testing. and Israel did much the same thing, and even
closed their borders during the first wave.
Does not change the fact that the vaccines are significantly less effective that all of those measures.
…new delta numbers, which is four times as a infectious as the original.
The virus is likely to evolve to be more infectious and less resistant to the vaccines. This will not be due to the unvaccinated. There is a study in fully vaccinated Vietnam nurses where they are spreading a variant unique to the nurses and not found in the patients they were treating. Were the virus to evolve to be more lethal, it would be due to the vaccinated.
The current vaccines do not form an immune response in the mucous tissue of the respiratory system. This allows the virus to infect and multiply in the vaccinated and therefore spread to others. Only once the disease progresses does the immune response induced by the vaccine become a factor. This can explain why it does not prevent infection, or spread, but does prevent serious illness.
By preventing serious illness, it is also possible that people do not realise they are ill and therefore do not self-isolate nor do other people perceive them as being obviously ill and avoid them. Thus they are free to spread the virus.
Unvaccinated people are likely to appear sicker, therefore either self-isolating or actively avoided by others. Thus reducing the spread of the disease. This is one of the reasons Ebola, Marburg and other really bad viruses do not kill everyone. They kill their host too soon and make the host look too sick too quick.
So no. I do not think you’ve succeeded in invalidating the data disproving your hypothesis.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
We can not base our reality on the outliers. The trans people likely arent happy with that!
The rare problems with vaccines, if actually caused by the vaccines, are an outlier. What happens on average is good, very good. Guess what? Humans become fit to their environment over time as well. If willness to use and durability to vaccines is a matter of fitness in order to survive pandemics. . . then so be it.
The inability to explain the last 40 years of vaccine research to someone, becomes that someones license to disagree with it these days. The inability of the masses to comprehend data and ideas that are true doesnt make them wrong or invalid in the long run, but certainly a large pack of ad populum totting idiots can make just about anything wrong in the short term. That much is apparent both now and throughout history.
Lip
Lip
2 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
One of the end products of vaccine research, of the last 40 years, has been a fairly rigorous process through which vaccines must go. Including at least a two year phase three trial. This trial has not been completed.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  Lip
That is a regulatory hurdle to cross. Not a learning from the research.
Dr. Future
Dr. Future
2 years ago
My personal research on popular alternative treatments, and the people behind them:
ToInfinityandBeyond
ToInfinityandBeyond
2 years ago

The widespread circulation of this story of a doctor who died two weeks after receiving a Covid-19 jab exposes just how fertile a breeding ground Facebook can be for anti-vaccination content.

This can be partly explained by a committed network of activists, under a variety of different guises, who oppose coronavirus vaccines. 

Promoting emotive, personal stories like this one on Facebook has been one of their primary tactics in scaring others from getting jabbed – even when, as was the case with this story, it turns out the death has no link to a Covid-19 vaccine at all.

Throughout the pandemic, these activists have muddled together real – and rare – stories of potential adverse side effects from vaccines with extreme online conspiracies, exploiting medical debates, genuine grief, and legitimate questions.

This also demonstrates the complexity of the disinformation ecosystem on social media – where users seize on a grain of truth, in this case an accurate news story, and spin it into a misleading narrative, without the facts to back it up.

Dean2020
Dean2020
2 years ago
It is every individual’s responsibility to conduct his own research. I know it is difficult to spend the time but otherwise you risk being led in the wrong direction. The government has proven they are a bunch of clueless baboons and have lost the trust of the general population. 
Yes, even the government sponsored health agencies are riddled with worthless ‘scientists’ providing guidance. I worked in the public sector for over 17yrs. I found that regardless of the nature of the government sector the quality rarely differs. 90% are idiots and the higher they go the more worthless they become.
So yes, I’m skeptical because I was a witness from the other side, but I have common sense to educate myself instead of relying on our ‘trusted’ government like  a blind fool.
I don’t use Facebook but understand there is misinformation overflowing into a septic tank from the left and right.
ToInfinityandBeyond
ToInfinityandBeyond
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean2020
Whether we like it or not the fact is that there are foreign agents, from the usual suspect countries, promoting and propagating lies about the effectiveness and dangers of Covid vaccines.  These countries have organizations dedicated to the promotion of dissension, divisiveness and civil unrest in our great country.  Anyone looking for a reason not to take the vaccine can find plenty of fodder out there on the internet.  Sensible people need to follow the science.  There is no world wide conspiracy promoting ineffective vaccines.  All that said, I do respect that people are entitled to their own particular beliefs regarding vaccines.  Just please don’t believe all the “fake news” regarding the dangers and effectiveness of vaccines. Naivety will put lives at risk. 
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
“Follow the science”.  Ffs.  Which science?  Do our great censor overlords follow the science?  Do our government overlords follow the science?  Science is everchanging.  Consensus is frequently proven to be wrong.  There are many questions.  People who say “follow the science” are usually using it as a political totem.  If the authorities were following the sience, they would have created a treatment protocol that included all of the low risk cheap treatment possibilities.  They didn’t.  Their protocol has been – got Covid?  Go home.  If you are about to die, go to the hospital and maybe we will give you some treatments there.  Oh and get vaccinated. 
The vaccines have done a great deal of good.  But their refusal to distinguish between different groups (young people, people already having had COVID) is not following the science.  It is political, and meant to benefit the vaccine creators, who happen to be among their largest campaign contributors for pols, and the bureaucrats have direct stakes through ownership in the outcome.
And their PROHIBITION on treatments that practicing physicians have shown to work in the field during a health emergency is nothing short of Crimes Against Humanity and should be treated as such, with the ringleaders tried and given appropriate punishments.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Lives have been put at risk all along, because of the vaccine obsession of the public health agencies.
An EUA for the vaccines could not be given unless there was no other viable therapy. No wonder that HCQ was smeared. As Dr. McCullough pointed out, HCQ was an FDA approved drug and did not need an EUA, as doctors commonly prescribe off label when they read of indication that a drug may have a benefit for something other than what it was approved for. Dr. Zelenko used this process to treat some 400 high risk Covid patients. He kept all but 4 out of the hospital.
Not only did the FDA put an EUA on HCQ, but it wasn’t allowed to be used outpatient, which was what Zelenko was using it for, to good success. The FDA blocked early treatment, to the detriment of patients, but to the benefit of the vaccine agenda.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
“Naivety will put lives at risk. “
And we should care, why?
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
One more way social media contributes to distorting reality and reinforcing the bias de jour of the Great Unwashed. It shows up everywhere.
prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
Funny how a true story about a vaccinated person dying from the vaccine is ‘disinformation’, but a story about an unvaccinated person dying from Covid isn’t.
George Orwell must be laughing his socks off.
Dean2020
Dean2020
2 years ago
Researchers are looking into ADE…
… to the best of our knowledge ADE of Delta variants has not been specifically assessed. Since our data indicate that Delta variants are especially well recognized by infection enhancing antibodies targeting the NTD, the possibility of ADE should be further investigated as it may represent a potential risk for mass vaccination during the current Delta variant pandemic. In this respect, second generation vaccineslink to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov with spike protein formulations lacking structurally-conserved ADE-related epitopes should be considered.
ADE is a ticking time bomb. The right combination between vaccine induced antibodies and viral variant will often kill the host. Hopefully, this is not the case with the COVID vaccines but if it is an issue this would be VERY serious.
This is just a single example of why people are waiting for further research. There are many other concerns being investigated by the global community of medical research scientists. 
ToInfinityandBeyond
ToInfinityandBeyond
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean2020

Antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) is something researchers watch for very carefully and is extremely rare. In ADE, certain antibodies make it easier for viruses to get into cells. This is bad because it would mean a virus or a vaccine makes people more at risk for severe disease. 

If COVID-19 vaccines caused ADE, people who are vaccinated against COVID-19 would have more severe disease. This is not happening. On the contrary, people who are vaccinated typically have very mild disease or none at all. In fact, the majority of COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. are people who aren’t fully vaccinated

Dean2020
Dean2020
2 years ago
I agree 100% but please read carefully. ADE may not exist with the initial strain and antibody combination but develop with mutations. The virus is now mutating so the combinations of future mutations is unknown. Some researchers have indicated that a higher level of antibody enhancement is present in some of the variants. NOT life threatening YET but with each mutation the risk increases. 
Dean2020
Dean2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean2020
This is from another study:
Based on the current emergence of more and more viral mutation variants, we
must pay close attention to whether vaccines are effective for newly emerged, particularly
multiple mutated strains, and whether they will cause the ADE effect.
My point is that due to the vaccines being fast tracked proper research had not been performed so the long-term effects are unknown. Nobody can dispute this because long-term has yet to occur. 
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean2020
ADE is a fitness improvement. The current Delta developed outside of widely vaccinated populations. If ADE does develop, it will be a few variants of concern down the road. Not now.
Lip
Lip
2 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
Agreed. Which could make a future variant significantly more lethal for those that have been vaccinated. Not guaranteed, but might. Those with natural immunity might be better protected, but not necessarily.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
You hear on the web frequently “There was never a successful vaccine against any coronavirus” and “the attempted vaccines produced ADE” and “all the ferrets died when challenged”. The truth is a bit more complicated. Here is a medical article from 2009 summarizing the status of SARS vaccines:
Many types of vaccines were tried. A poxvirus vaccine did produce ADE, and all the ferrets challenged did die. An inactivated whole virus vaccine also produced some ADE. No ADE was seen in either an adenovirus vaccine or a DNA vaccine designed to produced S-proteins. Both appeared to be safe and effective, but never went through phase 3 trials due to a lack of funding. Nevertheless, this research laid dormant for a decade, but clearly was the starting point for Covid vaccine development in 2020. In 2020, no one tried a poxvirus vector. Only a few tried inactivated whole viruses. Most went to either adenovirus or mRNA routes.  Were these vaccines rushed? Certainly, but not nearly as much as some people thing, because much of the research was already done.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Some of the reading I have come across makes the case that ADE will become a major problem because the mRNA/DNA shots do not kill or sterilize the virus, so provides opportunity for mutations and ADE issues.
For instance:
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean2020
ADE is a hypothetical problem at this point, and the vaccines are very clearly saving more than enough lives to risk that “maybe, and someday”  problem, just like all the other “what-abouts”. 
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
It’s curious why so many people think their worthless lives are actually worth saving.
Rbm
Rbm
2 years ago
Funny. The same crowd that says a business has the right to refuse service to someone because their gay/ a business has a right to drug test employees.  Gets upset when said business requires them to were a mask/ prove vax or get the vax to be to their job.   
ps my better halfs grand mother called today and wants to schedule the shot.  Guess it took her friends getting sick for it to hit home.   
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Rbm
But that will change when they can’t find anyone to work for them.
Cocoa
Cocoa
2 years ago
FYI, it’s a cross-zoological virus, so you cannot get herd immunity unless you vaccinate every mammal on the planet. And they can be the ones making varients. IE: rats in NYC subways,sewers have scores of weird mutations. link to bbc.com
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  Cocoa
That link doesnt mention NYC sewer variants. Last I checked they arent finding infected rats. Variants have been found in sewage.
Dutchguy
Dutchguy
2 years ago
Mish, almost 11 years i’ve been following your blogs on internet from the Netherlands, but today i decided to quit. 10 years ago i liked your blogs full of reason. It’s not that i always agreed with your view and conclusions, but your blogs helped my understanding, in particular about the economy. But now your analyses are not anymore so elaborated and balanced as in the past and you simply let your personal believes prevail to which kind of data you use. i’m not against vaccins, but why so fanatic on this issue? On each case you present that vaccins works so good, i can present a case which shows otherwise. Last month in my hometown there was a huge surge of covid delta cases; 96% were fully vaccinated (2 jabs) and 4% have got 1 jab. Look at Israel, Look at other countries like the UK; it’s another picture than you like to paint. We see in the first months of the recente delta outbreak, mostly unvaccinated people getting sick and hospitalized, but now we see more and more fully vaccinated people getting very sick and the IFR of vaccinated people is nowadays alot higher compared to non-vaxxers. I can go on and on; it’s not all well with the covid vaccins; we badly need some nuance. i hope you and your loved ones remain healthy, also after the booster shots, but i get very tired of this discussion all day long for so long time, which tends to be very divisive and opionions which resemble faith dogma’s, eliminating other peoples free choice and personal responsiblity, to theaten people with contrasting toughts and views with excommunication of society, it looks like the same way as the nazi’s did in Germany since 1933. So sad.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Dutchguy
What bothers me is that 98 out of 100 people will not die from catching Covid even if not vaccinated, and 2 out of 100 could die or be hospitalised  from catching Covid because they won’t get vaccinated. Yet the 98 out of 100 are the ones that get “excommunicated” as you put it. It’s totally bonkers.
amigator
amigator
2 years ago
Great questions Mish I can think of many more subjects that might save us much more monies that we could be asking.  If we are to discriminate against those that don’t have a vaccine is it ok to discriminate against other issues which cost us all money?
So we now know who exactly transmits the virus to us? People with a vaccine that have COVID can not transmit COVID?
I guess no one that has had the vaccine has died from covid they die from one of their underlying conditions (at least that’s what I read in my local paper). However if you have not had a vaccine then you die from COVID not one of your underlying conditions. Its scientific alright.
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
Mish, agreed on the need for data, but don’t you think we need ALL the data around what is effective and what is not? The CDC literally playing with the infection rates by ignoring the vaccinated clearly does no one any good, nor provides any scientific insight as to if the current policies are effective.
I mean, I saw on MSNBC – even they brought that up…
njbr
njbr
2 years ago
Sad silly unvaccinated goobers from down south filling up hospitals in my town.
Where’s a wall when you really need it?
How much does it cost to fly a patient on a medivac to 3 states away?
At least have the decency to leave a directive that you don’t want to be treated for an imaginary disease like covid.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  njbr
“How much does it cost to fly a patient on a medivac to 3 states away?”
Ivermectin is really cheap. It would probably dramatically reduce the need for a medivac.
WhyMe2016
WhyMe2016
2 years ago
Jessie Jackson and his wife were each fully vaccinated and look forward to receiving their booster shots once they are released from the hospital.  They know that the vaccine and the antibodies from the virus itself are not enough to protect them from the Covid variants.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
As counterpoint, here is a website that lists people who took the vaccine and then died afterwards, even though most were supposedly healthy previously.
ToInfinityandBeyond
ToInfinityandBeyond
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Well if it’s on the internet it must be true. Don’t believe everything you read online.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
So you’re claiming that the named people, with their photos on the website didn’t die?  I doubt you even visited it the site because you are a shill for the Pharma industry.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
VAXXED Patients’ Blood Examined, Horrific Findings Revealed by German Physicians
Stew Peters Show
Published August 18, 2021
Rumble — The ‘Stew Peters Show’ has obtained footage and slides of multiple patients’ blood that was examined after being inoculated with the shots being called ‘vaccines’ for COVID-19.
Dr. Jane Ruby joins Stew Peters to discuss what the slides show, and how the blood is being changed, which can only be described as unexplainable and alarming.
ToInfinityandBeyond
ToInfinityandBeyond
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Dr Jane Ruby is self described as having a “medical background” and not a medical doctor. She apparently claimed that magnetism is being added to vaccines.  Quack. Quack. Quack.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
And that may well be, but as the saying goes, don’t shoot the messenger. 
Instead, watch the CONTENT of the video, which provides REAL microscope pictures and REAL MD names for you to embrace or rant about.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Take  look at this video also.  This guy is a real MD.  Let me know what you don’t like/agree with.  Oh and don’t forget to use a childish snarky tone.
——–
A Pathologist Summary Of What These Jabs Do To The Brain And Other Organs
TJ45 Published August 3, 2021
Ryan Cole MD, AFLDS PHYSICIAN
18 min video
A scientific clarification of what these injections do in the head and other organs of the vaccinated people
ToInfinityandBeyond
ToInfinityandBeyond
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Cole, a dermatopathologist and owner of a medical laboratory in the US state of Idaho, is known for his anti-vaccine stance. Other fact-checking organisations have previously debunked claims made by Cole (see here and here). This latest viral video of Cole was recorded during a summit for American Frontline Doctors (AFLD) held in Texas on July 27, 2021. The group claims to be an impartial non-profit organisation, but is known for spreading misinformation about COVID-19. The same video was also shared with Serbian subtitles, which AFP Fact Check debunked here. However, experts told AFP Fact Check that Cole’s claims are false and based on misinterpretations of scientific studies. AFP Fact Check addresses several of Cole’s claims below.
Dr. Odyssey
Dr. Odyssey
2 years ago
Who checks the fact checkers?
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
So, he looks at skin, hair, and nails to diagnose problems? That does make him an expert in vaccine safety.
Your fact check link just restates what is already well established. Yes, very large doses of spikes can damage the endothelial cells. Yes, some spikes, in barely measurable quantities, can be observed in the blood after vaccination, usually for about 2 days, after which it is gone forever. Yes, the amount of spikes in the blood is too small to cause any negligible effect.
It’s actually a bit more complicated than the fact check article makes it. Spikes can exist in either a closed or open position, but can only bind to cells in the open position, while spikes produced by the vaccine are usually in the closed position, and there is nothing to open them. In the actual virus, glycans work like a crowbar to pry the spikes open. Note, also, that this only applies to the mRNA vaccines, which are gone from the body quickly, and which cause spikes to appear for only a very short time. Adenovirus vector vaccines may have very different behavior. It is my understanding that they are based on an actual, living monkey adenovirus, and are capable of reproducing, though supposedly not very efficiently. While mRNA vanished quickly from the body, adenovirus vaccines may be present for an unknown duration.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Perhaps he has an “anti-vaccine” stance because of the evidence he sees?  I’m a vaccine skeptic also based on the evidence I have seen.  So?
You quote from an INDIA website?  A country where 3/4’s of the the people don’t have dependable electricity?  And their backing for THEIR claims of falsehoods are that SOME “experts” told them so?  You need to do better than this!
“But the doctor’s claims are false, experts told AFP Fact Check. The Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines that use mRNA technology are considered safe, and millions of doses have been administered”
Dean_70
Dean_70
2 years ago
Fact: Long-term effects of the vaccines are unknown.
Fact: The short-term effects are beneficial, provided you do not have a reaction.
Fact: The effectiveness of vaccines is dramatically reduced (down to 64%) after only six months due to a reduction of antibodies according to a study released last week.
Fact: The long-term effects of mRNA may be positive or negative but we don’t know because long-term does not exist yet.
Fact: mRNA facilitates the production of the same spike proteins that exist on the COVID virus. These spike proteins have been proven to accumulate and bind to cell walls throughout the body, the long-term effects are unknown.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean_70
My wife’s best friend and the friend’s mother both got aches in their joints that persisted for weeks, both within a few days of getting the Moderna vaccine. They live in different households and got vaccinated at different times/locations but obviously share genetics. There *are* side effects of the vaccination for an unknown number of people. Whether effects are benign or not, the long term effects are unknown.
Dean_70
Dean_70
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
There are many products released by pharmaceutical companies that are eventually recalled due to harmful long-term effects. The typical FDA approval and release of a vaccine is around 7-10 years. I really hope that the vaccines prove to have zero long-term harmful effects but I would rather bet on scientific medical science than hope.
I also know countless individuals with strange vaccine side effects. One I know suffered an eye stroke, which I did not realize was a condition. Another I know has a finger twitch that does not seem to go away. A couple young people I know had severe chest pain. etc.. etc…
I also know people that have been vaccinated and have been hospitalized after contracting COVID. There are MANY variants out there that are documented, not just the few mentioned in the MSM. The vaccines provide some protection against some variants, while zero protection against other variants. They are also researching the possibility of the vaccines causing ADE when vaccinated individuals are exposed to variants. They have proved this in animal studies. ADE was caused by vaccines developed for prior corona viruses, those vaccines were never released because of this. ADE is a proven condition where the vaccine actually assists in the replication of the virus instead of neutralizing it, eventually killing the host in the long-term.
Dean_70
Dean_70
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean_70
Just to explain a little: vaccines were being developed for SARS and MERS, which are corona viruses. They found that when they developed a vaccine that was proven effective the antibodies that were developed helped to neutralize the virus. The problem was that the virus mutated and when the vaccinated host was infected with certain mutations the host experienced ADE. The antibodies that were created in an immune response, which effectively neutralized the original strain, accelerated the replication of the mutant strain. This commonly resulted in the death of the host. This is the primary reason they spent over 15yrs developing corona virus vaccines but none came to market. 
Do you really want to find out the hard way that they have yet to solve this dilemma in COVID, which is another corona virus? This research on COVID mutations has only begun. ADE can not be proven or unproven in regards to COVID but some research scientists see a possible correlation in published lab reports from the last couple months. That’s why I’m hopeful but hesitant and will continue to wait for more research.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean_70
You hear this repeated quite often, and yet, that doesn’t mean it is true. Vaccine development against SARS did progress to a point where they had what appeared to be a safe, effective vaccine, yet, since SARS was no longer a problem, no one would pay for testing.
Dean_70
Dean_70
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
I encourage you to dig up publications rather than settle for the MSM spin. You can actually read the finding in the medical research community. I realize it is often difficult reading and sometimes hard to decipher but sometime you have to look for the cause rather than focus on the symptom. Someone saying they were close without the details can be misleading. 
Also, research has not halted because funding in the US is limited. There is research taking place that does not start and end in the US. There are brilliant scientists around the globe that have continued to look for solutions.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean_70
They actually reached the point in 2004 where they were ready to test it on humans before funding dried up:
At the same time, a different vaccine was undergoing testing in China. Funding dried up, and all projects were abandoned, for money reasons, not because the vaccines were shown to be ineffective:
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean_70
Here is an article from 2009 summarizing the success and issues of the various approaches to vaccines for SARS. Note that two of the most successful approaches were using an adenovirus vector, and a DNA virus to produce spike proteins. It also discusses antibody dependent enchancement. There were only 2 vaccine trials that showed ADE, one involving a poxvirus vector, the other involving an inactivated whole virus. Adenovirus based vaccine, and DNA virus did not have any issue with ADE.
It is very clear that the reason we were able to develop vaccines so quickly for SARS-COV2 is because of all the research that went into developing a vaccine for SARS. Even though funding dried up, and the vaccines never went through phase 3 trials, the groundwork was laid, and when when SARS-COV2 came around, vaccine development picked up where it left off, and pathways that led to ADE were avoided. No one tried a poxvirus vector, and almost no one worked on inactivated whole viruses.
The mainstream media is poor at handling this kind of information. The alternate media is even worse.
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Anecdotal here too, but three blood family members in the past 6 months passed within a few weeks of the Pfizer vaccination. Reasonably fit, and doing well through most the shutdown – that is until the shots… my little sister was 35
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Yooper
Were autopsies done on any of them?  If no, why not?
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Dean_70
You seem to have left out a few other known facts.
Fact: Even among non-fatalities, a high number of Covid patients have long term damage, including myocarditis, strokes, neurological damage, damage to the liver, kidney, and prostate, damage to blood vessel walls, damage to the heart, and of course, damage to the lungs.
Fact: The true extent of long term damage from Covid is unknown
Fact: Antibodies decline in people with natural infections at the rate of 3% a month
Fact: One study showed that spikes could cause damage to cell walls. A second study showed that a measurable quantity of spikes could be found in the blood for two days, about day 4 and day 5 after vaccination. The levels that were shown to cause damage in the first study were 100,000 times higher than the low levels found in actual blood in the second study. Will the low levels actually found, produced for two days, be enough to cause significant damage? Unknown
There is much about the long term that is unknown, both about the vaccine, and about Covid itself.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
“Fact: Even among non-fatalities, a high number of Covid patients have long term damage, including myocarditis, strokes, neurological damage, damage to the liver, kidney, and prostate, damage to blood vessel walls, damage to the heart, and of course, damage to the lungs.”
You keep posting variations of this and it isn’t true then or now.  The estimate is that people with so-called long Covid represent 5-10% of those who have contracted the virus, so not a high number overall.  
Fact: The true extent of long term damage from Covid is unknown
Conversely, the extent of long-term damage caused by the mRNA/DNA vaccines is unknown.
Fact: Antibodies decline in people with natural infections at the rate of 3% a month
Not a fact at all.  Let’s see the cite for this 3% figure.  I’ve posted study link above that shows AB’s still strong after 8 moths in those who have had natural infections.
Fact: One study showed that spikes could cause damage to cell walls. A second study showed that a measurable quantity of spikes could be found in the blood for two days, about day 4 and day 5 after vaccination. The levels that were shown to cause damage in the first study were 100,000 times higher than the low levels found in actual blood in the second study. Will the low levels actually found, produced for two days, be enough to cause significant damage? Unknown
Fact?  I don’t see any “facts” in this statement.  The facts are that damage is occurring.  I have posted two videos above that show the actual cellular damage and inflammation caused by the mRNA/DNA jabs.  They are available for you to learn from.  But like the proverbial stubborn horse, you don’t seem to learn from previous postings.  Perhaps you don’t even read/watch any of the material that is outside your echo chamber beliefs?  There must be a reason you keep repeating previously disproven nonsense and calling them “facts”.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
What? 5-10% of people is not a high number??? Yet, people are worried about the potential that 0.001% of people vaccinated might develop myocarditis? 5-10% of people is a huge number! So, if we reached 16-33 million Americans with permanent damage from Covid, you’d be fine with that?
As for declining antibody levels, there is no question that they do. Those studies are everywhere. Here is are a couple that popped up:
What is not known yet, is whether other parts of the immune system, such as memory B cells and memory T cells will continue to provide full immunity after the antibody levels decline. Only time can answer that.
Here is the study that showed that the spikes can damage the endothelial cells:
Note the conclusion on page 6 that the vaccine will not only protect against the virus, it will protect against the spikes being able to damage the endothelial layer. The author, Uri Manor, tweeted later that :
“1) the (relatively) small amount of spike protein produced by the mRNA vaccine would not be nearly enough to do any damage
2) i happily got the mRNA vaccine, FWIW
3) i encourage everyone to get it”
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
5-10% is an estimate.  It might be much less.  You have been harping on long Covid for many months now.  It’s a non-issue as most people successfully recover from the infection w/o long-term problems.
This is what is said on your reference page 6.  Frankly, it’s not very easy to translate that medical gobblygook into understandable English.  I’ll have to tackle that later but I don’t think it says what you think it says.  Note the multiple mentions of “suggests”, which isn’t a definitive and the use of the phrase “seems paradoxical”.  Often things seem paradoxical when you are on the wrong track.
Our data herein reveals that S protein alone can damage endothelium, manifested by impaired mitochondrial function and eNOS activity but increased glycolysis. The S proteinmediated endothelial impairment depends on ACE2 post-translational modifications. It appears that S protein in ECs increases redox stress which may lead to AMPK deactivation, MDM2 upregulation, and ultimately ACE2 destabilization.4 It seems paradoxical that ACE2 reduction by S protein would decrease the virus infectivity, thereby protecting endothelium. However, a dysregulated renin-angiotensin system due to ACE2 reduction may exacerbate endothelial dysfunction, leading to endotheliitis. Collectively, our results suggest that the S protein-exerted EC damage overrides the decreased virus infectivity. This conclusion suggests that vaccinationgenerated antibody and/or exogenous antibody against S protein not only protects the host from SARS-CoV-2 infectivity but also inhibits S protein-imposed endothelial injury and ultimately decrease cardiovascular complication-associated mortality in COVID-19 patients. 
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
The bottom line with all 3 vaccines, is that if you are more protected with them than if you would have gotten Covid. If you had a bad side effect from the vaccine, then you would have probably been in the ICU on a vent had you gotten Covid. 
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
This does not agree with the recent studies:

“The results reveal the complex details of how the T-cell
response to these vaccines unfolds, and underline the importance of a
second dose for people with no history of COVID-19. The findings showed,
however, that in people with a history of COVID-19, the T-cell response
was already robust after the first vaccine dose, with no significant
increase after the second dose
, which may have implications for
potential future booster shots.

“Our findings underscore the fact that we need to look at T
cells, not just antibodies, if we want a complete picture of the vaccine
response for those who have not had COIVD-19 and for those who have
recovered from the disease”

link to pennmedicine.org

Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
I think the mandate should be for at least 1 shot. There is evidence that those that have had covid do have some protection but that they would better off getting the first of 2-shot MRNA vaccine.  There is evidence that the second shot for someone who has already had covid has a higher risk of developing myocarditis if they don’t already have it.  This video below is one of the better summaries I have seen. 
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
If you only get one shot, then you are considered unvaxxed by the CDC.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
This is your best post yet on this topic. Thank you.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Proving Barnum right that there’s a sucker born every minute!
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
In contrast to his previous posts, it this one he presented facts, had a thoughtful discussion concerning those facts, then let his position on those facts be known. That is a great way of presenting data and persuading  as opposed to resorting to name calling or stating that other people must take your side because you are obviously right and they are obviously wrong.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Your interpretation of what is a fact leaves much to be desired.
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Ah yes, the old informal logical fallacy of false generalization.  We are supposed to conclude that because one old guy didnt take the vaccine, and was outspoken against it, that anyone who questions the mRNA COVID vaccines, which are still experimental despite the Pfizer version being given full FDA approval today, is likely to die and deserves it.  And furthermore, the deision not to get the mRNA vaccine, should deprive the decider from participating in public life, though if the vaccine is so effective, one wonders why a vaccinated person would care.
And of course there are the obligatory swipes at the treatments like Ivermectin, false though they are.
Here try this from the NIH itself:  link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Quotes:  “Ivermectin proved to be even more of a ‘Wonder drug’ in human health, improving the nutrition, general health and wellbeing of billions of people worldwide ever since it was first used to treat Onchocerciasis in humans in 1988.”
And:  “Ivermectin has continually proved to be astonishingly safe for human use.”
From the NIH, you know, where Anthony Fauci has his destructive bully pulpit, from where he has FAILED to develop an actual treatment protocol for COVID, because he and everyone else is bought off by the Pharma lobby, which is now the most evil force on earth.
Maybe now that Pfizers mRNA “vaccine”, which I will acknowledge has been helpful in the battle against COVID so far, has been approved and so is no longer under EUA and hence threatened by the emergence of viable treatments preventing such an EUA, the medical community can go ahead and start using Ivermectin, and researching its true effectiveness against COVID.
Kick'n
Kick’n
2 years ago
Reply to  tbergerson
WTH is this? In the paper you cited I see absolutely no relevance to COVID. This drug is for treating diseases caused by foreign organisms entering the body, not viruses! Viruses must commandeer hosts to proliferate, organisms self replicate. Hence when you have a virus you are fighting against your very own cells. Could this somehow alleviate symptoms? I see no references to this whatsoever. Again, a virus is not a parasite.
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Reply to  Kick’n
Sigh.  The point isnt to point to anything proving Ivermectin for COVID.  It is NOT proven yet.  The point was that it was being referred to as a veterinary medicine.  It is not.  Not solely.  Read it again.  There is a whole other list (see comment below) and research by NIH showing the effectiveness for COVID.  Fffs
Kick'n
Kick’n
2 years ago
Reply to  tbergerson
You should have just cited the relevant papers below and not the irrelevant one above.
randocalrissian
randocalrissian
2 years ago
Reply to  tbergerson
The fight against big pharma and Covid can exist in separate cubbyholes. Why didn’t Trump do anything about Big Pharma’s unfair pricing? He claimed he would be the magical fixer of drug prices. Looks like he didn’t really care. I didn’t see a single Trump supporter say anything about it, not until Biden was in office and vaccine shot costs became an issue to use against him. Curious that.
Your spurious air quotes to deride claims made by others only makes you and your argument look puerile. You may think it makes you look smart and better than, but you’re dearly mistaken.
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Because Trump was generally an idiot.  And especially about COVID, on which he failed utterly.
As for the air quotes, the mRNA vaccines are not properly understood as vaccines.  Sorry you are offended by them. 
kulispartan
kulispartan
2 years ago
What about those of us with test verified antibodies?  Why should we be forced to get the vaccine, which may be more dangerous, while the antibodies have been proven to be better than the vaccine and potentially lasting for entire lives like the Spanish Flu antibodies have proven to be.  What about us Mitch, we should just take the experiment when we don’t need it?   And how about my kids that have a lower risk from Covid 19 than the flu, just give them the experimental jab as well?  No thanks!
Kick'n
Kick’n
2 years ago
Reply to  kulispartan
Lamar Jackson, QB for the Ravens caught COVID last year before the NFL season. This year same thing. You need a certain viral load to test positive. So much much for immunity… Additionally, this seems to be shaping up to be like the flu with multiple variants, possibly every year. However, it seems to be particularly hard on those unvaccinated when they are affected. How long will your antibodies last and will they be effective in slowing down variants you haven’t had yet? I think the jury is still out. Need more study in that arena.
kulispartan
kulispartan
2 years ago
Reply to  Kick’n
I’ll accept that we do not know how long the antibodies will last, but you have to accept that there is just as much or more about the vaccine, especially long term effects that we just don’t know.  My wife tested positive for the antibodies on 3 separate occasions over an 8 month period when giving blood, we will see if it continues…
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  kulispartan
I agree that these is much that is not known about the long term effects of vaccination, but it is equally true that there is much that is not known about the long term effects of Covid, nor about how long immunity lasts, either from the vaccine, or from covid itself.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Kick’n
People with previous infection have much stronger immunity than those who just got vaccinated.  Anything different you hear is a lie.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Kick’n
January 26, 2021
Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19
At a Glance
–  The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.
– The results provide hope that people receiving SARS-CoV-2 vaccines will develop similar lasting immune memories after vaccination.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
Reply to  kulispartan
See this video. I had the same questions as you about my kids and it helped me.  I’m hopeful we get a single dose vaccine for kids soon as the data looks pretty good on it. They are just getting a significantly larger sample size as school starts. 
kulispartan
kulispartan
2 years ago
I just don’t see the logic of subjecting my kids to an experimental treatment for a disease that poses very little risk to them.  If your worried about your grandparents have them take the jab.  This is just common sense.
El_Tedo
El_Tedo
2 years ago
Reply to  kulispartan
That’s because there IS no logic to it.  
randocalrissian
randocalrissian
2 years ago
Reply to  kulispartan
Nobody has been talking about the infected and their role in this. Perhaps that cohort should start speaking up for themselves? Just a thought.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  kulispartan
There is no approved test for neutralizing antibodies that has the specific concentration of neutralizing antibodies required to prevent infection or severe symptoms. So, you many not have neutralizing antibodies, and no one can legally market a test that tells you that you have http://enough.Read the label, and then check the FDA website on this topic.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
Stats from the hospital my wife works at this morning: 
135 confirmed Covid admitted to hospital
65 more pending
27 ICU patients
22 Covid confirmed in the ICU
5 in the ICU that are awaiting Covid test results
100% are unvaccinated. 
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Probably 100% didn’t receive any outpatient treatment, either. Early treatment is a key to keeping people out of the hospital.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Dr RonJ – What do you suggest for early treatment for a kid?
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
I don’t know whether IVM is suitable for young children, but it is suitable for adults on  an outpatient basis. Dr. Tess Lawrie says she has never seen a drug be treated the way IVM has. She said drugs with far less positive evidence than IVM has, have been approved for use.
The bottom line is that the health authorities don’t want people with Covid to get early outpatient treatment, which could well keep them out of the hospital.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
You do  know that the definition of unvaxxed is someone who hasn’t completed the full two shots and hasn’t had at least 2 weeks post-second vax?  Methinks when you point the evil finger at the “unvaxxed” you may not know who you are really pointing at.  But that’s par for the course here.
FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
YEP, looks like the vaxxed ones are busily breeding some real strong mutations !  CNN is reporting ever so  gleefully about unvaxxed getting killed and Mish is smugly and happily  following suit !   The thousands(!) of vaxxed ones getting killed or injured by the very experimental gene therapy and thousands of them still falling victim to covid despite being ‘protected’  are conveniently ignored !  The vaxxines,  at one point not very long from now, will turn out to be the biggest disastrous fraud in history ! No doubt about it … 
Esclaro
Esclaro
2 years ago
Every time Mish posts a factual comment about the vaccines and the ignorant fools who refuse to get vaccinated but take bleach and a horse dewormer instead, the blog is filled with these morons and their stupid “research” derived from that medical journal, Facebook. The anti vaxxers, you need your own country, a country of stupid ignorant morons who live in the 14th century. Afghanistan comes to mind.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Esclaro
Afghanistan is awesome. Or, maybe not. But at least again ruled by someone competent at something. Anything. Even if only war-fighting. Which is still way beyond anyone which pretty much anywhere else have been ruled by for the past 50 years.
Taliban controlled areas of Afghanistan have had very low covid rates. Effective social distancing at the effective range of an AK a likely reason. More important things to do than wallowing in idiocy with other idiots, perhaps another.
Who knows what will happen now, though. When the competent (although perhaps not at close contact with infectious diseases. Hard to fight those little buggers with AKs….) are forced to deal with the inevitable result of 20 years of a Vichy regime in hock to a free-falling once-was West. Druggies, profiteers, “investors”, “Activists”, blah, blah…. Not a productive, competent nor useful person, nor organization, in sight anywhere. Just useless vermin feeding off the decaying corpse of a decaying West, which is again feeding off its own ever dwindling population of productives, in order for its leeches-in-chief to preen around the world pretending to be useful for anything at all, beyond simple target practice.
The Afghans will get by, though. They always do. Like all properly armed God fearing guys in pickup trucks. At least the ones not stupid enough to give up their arms. Give it a decade or two, and the mujahideen will again be bored senseless by lack of self proclaimed “super powers” to kick around like ragdolls. Then, I suppose it’s China’s turn to be knocked down a few pegs…..
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
The life expectancy in Afghanistan is very low (young population), and there is not the kind of plenty there that allows many people to become overweight. Net result? Not a lot of Covid deaths.
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Reply to  Esclaro
You can go ahead and move there.  Read my comments.  My only information is coming from the NIH and CDC.  And from the doctors I know, many of whom are in my family.  But thanks anyway.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Esclaro
Ivermectin kills the Covid-19 virus in vitro in 24 hours. That is a scientific fact.
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
HT @Thimk
added this to my post

A reader commented: “I have a nasty cataract in my left eye that I have been trying to get removed for sometime. Once again I hear from the doctor’s office no elective surgeries are being done. Trying to obtain routine medical procedures here in Florida during this Covid debacle has been daunting.”   

Vaccinations are proven to slow the spread of serious cases. Hospitals are clogged with severe cases of Covid, mosty from unvaccinated, needlessly draining supplies from others in need. ICUs are at capacity also due to people on a fool’s mission against the data.

Aaron
Aaron
2 years ago

Mocking the dead is in poor taste. 

Mish has wisely spoken out against the media and
government’s demonization of subsets of the population.  
Moderation.  Constructive Debate.  Open-mindedness.  These have
been one of the greatest draws of this site, and I hope that continues. 

*********************************

Where should one
draw the line when you talk about restricting personal freedom?  What if Covid was twice as deadly? Or only 1/10th as deadly? (Then it would be less fatal than the flu)  Should people that do not get flu shots be
allowed to go out in public or have to wear masks?   Mish asks some excellent *debatable* questions – many sides and nuances here, as with every issue:

 

Does your right to not get vaccinated infringe on the rights of others to
not be infected by you?

Does your right to not get vaccinated infringe on the rights of others whose
insurance rates will surely go up because you do not get vaccinated? 

Should those who refuse to get vaccinated also refuse to go out in public so
they do not inadvertently spread the disease?

randocalrissian
randocalrissian
2 years ago
Reply to  Aaron
Why do we have a CDC if we are to debate amongst ourselves and set a virulence at which the jab is compulsory? Yes, that’s a rhetorical.
The CDC exists to steward public health by making objective decisions about things like this. If you don’t want to trust them for that role, do you trust them to exist and function at all?
There is a certain virulence above which 100% of people would kill others to get the vaccine (as the certainty of dying from infection approaches 100%…) . We shouldn’t let it come to that.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Aaron
“Should those who refuse to get vaccinated also refuse to go out in public so they do not inadvertently spread the disease?”
We unvaxxed aren’t sick and don’t carry the virus around.  However it has been shown that people who are vaxxed can be significant spreaders of the virus because the vax doesn’t kill the virus in them.  So the reality is that if you are vaxxed, then YOU should be the one who stays home to protect the rest of us!
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
BOBS YOUR UNCLE!
Webej
Webej
2 years ago
This is no longer a discussion being waged in good faith.
experimental drugs primarily used on horses
Factually this is hog wash. Ivermectine is in the WHO suite of essential medicines. 4 billion doses given to humans the past decades. The safety profile is much better than Tylenol. It is administered mostly against river blindness and strongyloidiasis (but also other parasites). The inventor received a nobel prize. It is based on a compound he found in Japanese plants. It is not for horses, nor experimental. This is not a good faith statement.
The more people that get Covid the more mutations occur
It is actually the vaccines that promote the mutations (evolutionary biology, selection pressure of leaky vaccine) when administered in an endemic environment. Does it not give you pause that 12 of the 13 most highly vaccinated countries have seen spikes in infections? Is this a wild eyed view? No. It is the position of mainstream experts, including the most senior policy vaccinologist in the UK.
In many countries they have already decided the balance of risks does not warrant vaccinating those under 30.
The adverse risk numbers are being stifled, as with all aspects of this pandemic, before it even began.
Esclaro
Esclaro
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
You do not know what you are talking about. I owned a herd of horses for twenty years! Ivermectin is the horse dewormer we used for our horses. Fact!!! Truth!!!  Two words which are alien to you. 
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Esclaro
I’m not sure how a horse eating oats, disproves that oatmeal may also be eaten, even beneficially, by humans as well….
Webej
Webej
2 years ago
Reply to  Esclaro
Did I deny it is used for veterinary applications? No. There are scores of applications, including many types of off-label human conditions.
But the 4 billion human doses over decades and the nobel prize and the WHO status as essential medicine contradicts the statement that people are turning to a horse remedy. Not a single statement I made is not factual or even in dispute.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
As far as mutations go, the genie is out of the bottle. We are nearing 8 billion people in the world, and every world border is highly leaky. Using mutation as an argument should be taken off the table not because it is irrelevant, but because it is a red herring, a logical fallacy in the vaccine discussion. No honest person would use that as an argument.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Huh?
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
My personal opinion is that I don’t trust the data from any country, but I suspect that the countries that lead in vaccination also lead in record-keeping, so their data may be more accurate than some other countries. I certainly don’t trust the data well enough to try to compare one country to another. As virulent as Delta is, I can’t believe that any country can escape, at least without some very stringent border controls.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
*points and you then taps self on nose*
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
All true and all posted numerous times in the past here.  But all the usual suspects will keep repeating what they have become convinced/indoctrinated to believe that Ivermectin.  You are “titling against windmills”. 
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
OK Ivermectin has known medical uses in humans mainly for parasites. But self prescription to prevent Covid is at best experimental.  Vaccines are proven.
Modified the article to deal with a small number of copmplaints
FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
‘the vaccines are proven’  Really ?  Well, maybe up to a couple of months ago, it is becoming more obvious by the day that actually NOTHING is proven !  I do understand though that it must be hard for the willing and obliging lab rats to face reality….
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels
Depends on the standard of proof you expect/require. Compared to what currently passes for “proof” among the ambulance chasing shakedown army, and the carbon crazies, covid vaccines are on pretty darned solid ground. It ain’t math, though.
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels
Their effectiveness is now proven I would say.  Their safety is not.  Pfizer’s mRNA “vaccine” is the fastest approval of any compound by the FDA ever.  Ever.  It is a political approval.  The safety is still an open question, no matter what the FDA says.  Given what I know of the FDA, and even more of what I suspect but do not know, I do not trust them even one little tiny bit.
randocalrissian
randocalrissian
2 years ago
Reply to  tbergerson
Airquotes? Are you 10, 11, or 12 years old?
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
No fake name guy, I am pointing out that it isnt really a vaccine.  Again sorry you are so offended by it.  Sounds like a bad case of OCD to me.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  tbergerson
I believe the approval article I read said the approval was 40% faster than any previous other!
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Let’s use the correct terminology going forward.  They are not real vaccines.  They are gene therapy shots.  They train the body to react to a specific spike protein configuration instead of the whole virus, which is why natural immunity is better than mRNA/DNA immunity.   Getting Covid once protects against all variants.  No booster shots needed every 6 months.  And no breakthrough infections.
Then of course, there is all the internal vascular damage being done by the spike proteins.  
mrusa
mrusa
2 years ago

Common sense or nonsense?

Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Reply to  mrusa
The data strongly say he is wrong on vaccinations. In fact it is crystal clear he is wrong, seemingly demanding they work 100% before he believes in them.
For every person like that, there are hundreds who strongly disagree. People believe their 1 in a hundred or 1 in 10,000 expert as long as that person says what they want to hear.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
“Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true”
–Francis Bacon
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
“What About Ivermectin?”
Over 700 health care workers in Argentina took IVM as prophylaxis as part of a study. None got Covid.
That was a best case scenario, but it does indicate IVM has high efficacy as a prophylaxis.
Phil took Ivermectin and died, others have taken a Covaxxine and died from Covid. Ivermectin has none of the serious adverse effects that the Covaxxines have.
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
a study of 700 vs tens of millions of vaccinations?
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
100% effective among the 700, who were actually dealing with Covid in a healthcare setting.
A nursing home in France had a scabies outbreak early on in the pandemic. IVM was the treatment. No one at the facility got Covid. Covid, however, ran rampant through many nursing homes, killing several.
I don’t need tens of millions of IVM users, to know that it has demonstrated a high efficacy as a prophylaxis. Not 100%, as demonstrated above, but a high level, none the less, with out the risk of the severe adverse reactions some are having from the Covaxxines. As a treatment therapy, the efficacy is lower, but as one doctor discovered, he had no patients admitted to the hospital in the three months following the start of using IVM, during the winter surge.
Merck is working on an anti-viral for Covid. The government is planning to buy $1.2 billion worth when approved. So the treatment agenda is going to change, anyway, when that happens. It won’t be only Covaxxines.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
I never heard the scabies story and I live there so where did you see it?
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
It was a long time ago, so i don’t remember, any more.
ysohio
ysohio
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Ivermectin and COVID-19 in Care Home: Case Report
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  ysohio
Thank you for that. It was a small group of 68 they tested Ivermectin on back in April 2020. A lot of experimentation was going on then unfortunately on small groups like this one and then things became very political making it downright dangerous professionally to continue this type of research. 
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Fcs.  How about India?  Indonesia?  Japan?  If we are talking anecdotal evidence, the universe is MUCH larger than 700.  Even the peer-reviewed studies now run into the tens or hundreds of thousands.
And here is an NIH meta-analysis of the available studies showing an 86% reduction in serious COVID outcomes with Ivermectin:
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
You have no idea what internal damage is being done by these shots!  Do they keep you out of the hospital?  It looks like they do but there is a whole lot more to the picture than that.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Skipping from vaccines to masks for a moment. Draw your own conclusions:
Wearing masks, also mandated, is yet another an example of gross incompetence by decision makers (and opinion influencers).
The effectiveness of face masks at stopping Covid-19 is highly questionable. In fact, I previously TRIED TO POST a link to mask tests using Covid-virus-sized particles done by the EPA.  The results ranged from a miserable 26.5% for3-layered cotton mask with ear loops, up to a N95 respirator  at 98.4%. The percent is for ‘fitted filtration efficiency’. A real surgical mask comes in at 71.5%, while the paper crap you buy from the store is 38.5%
If you were going to mandate masks, wouldn’t you want this information readily available and reported?
MrGrummpy-
MrGrummpy-
2 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I just returned from a hospital that I have visited a number of times in the past year.  Previous to today people were required to wear a mask of some kind.  Today everyone was issued a ‘medical’ type of mask at the door.  It was made very clear that cloth masks were not allowed.   
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
The point is that they are not ineffective. Limited effectiveness is better than none. As long as masks are used properly (cleaned and used carefully), they are a small win.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
But many people use them carefully or clean them.  Me for example.  I wear masks loose, below my nose with plenty of spare room for mouth breathing.  At my gym, I wear it below my chin when doing aerobic machines like the ellipticals.  And I use the same mask for weeks or longer, never changing it.
Why?  Because I don’t believe that masks do much of anything, so don’t really care.
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Absolutely! There is a minimum viral dose that is needed before you actually become sick. I’d still like to reduce that potential by 71% with my surgical mask than rely on opinions from some people’s used tee shirt mask with rubber bands worn under their nose – and then claim masks don’t help.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Masks were never a binary thing. Its all about dose. Look up “LD50”, then look up studies on two way tranmission of particles through masks. Put two and two together and you get everyone masks, everyone gets low doses, and fewer people get severe symptoms. Duh.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
Exactly! Of course, that has only been known since about 1200 AD, when they started using variolation to give people a very small dose, so that they would get a mild case, and survive.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
What’s the link?  If the system won’t let you post it, then break it up with underscores.  That should get it past the scan.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
So, it clearly showed that masks were effective at stopping some of the virus, which in turn will reduce the initial viral load, which is likely to reduce the severity of the case. Interestingly, that isn’t even the point of masks; they tested the wrong thing. What they should have tested was the viral load in the air around sick people, with a mask, and without. Does wearing a mask limit the ability of sick people to spread covid particles?
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Apparently merely writing the word “Iv*rm*ctin” will now get a comment banned from this site.  That is unfortunate in my view.
I don’t like seeing it described as a “horse drug”…..William Campbell and Satoshi Omura shared a Nobel for its discovery, and it has been a life-saving human drug, remarkably safe, and very effective for a variety of nasty human parasites. 
The data isn’t really in yet on using it for COVID. Anybody persuaded by a few rehashed meta studies doesn’t understand experimental design very well…….., so don’t write it off just because Phil Valentine died. I have no idea what he took, when he took it, or exactly how the course of his disease ran. 
There is a large scale double blind clinical trial in progress with more than 5000 participants. We need to see how that turns out. 
I certainly encourage everyone to get vaccinated. The odds are so lopsided in favor of the vaccine, all arguments against getting vaccinated, at this point, are ridiculous. I will get a booster at my earliest opportunity.  
There are times, without a doubt, when a public health initiative has the right to infringe on individual freedom, if enough lives are at stake.  In my view, this is surely one of those times.  People have the right to make a bad choice if the only person they’re hurting is themselves….but when they’re endangering others by their behavior, they’ve crossed the line.
My understanding is that kids will be getting vaccinated before the end of the year. The sooner the better.
El_Tedo
El_Tedo
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
“all arguments against getting vaccinated, at this point, are ridiculous”
That’s a remarkably idiotic comment.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  El_Tedo
No…no it is not.
Those of you who cannot gauge risk accurately can say whatever you want. The numbers make the case. Learn to do math, smart guy.
El_Tedo
El_Tedo
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
You claim to ‘gauge risk accurately’, but come to the exact same conclusion for 100% of the population.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  El_Tedo
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, for some of you. You have just enough understanding of what’s going on to scare yourself into making a very poor decision, just like the unfortunate Mr. Valentine. 
The only people who have much room to argue against getting vaccinated are those who can demonstrate that they have recovered from COVID and have good antibody titers. You can’t guess that, it has to be checked. If you are such a person, then you at least can make the case that getting vaccinated is overkill.
I can’t think of any other cases where vaccination wouldn’t be indicated.
Here is the morbidity picture:
  • Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare and has occurred in approximately 2 to 5 people per million vaccinated in the United StatesSevere allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, can occur after any vaccination. If this occurs, vaccination providers can effectively and immediately treat the reaction. Learn more about COVID-19 vaccines and allergic reactions, including link to cdc.gov.
  • Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) after Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 vaccination is rare. As of August 11, 2021, more than 13 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 42 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS. Women younger than 50 years old especially should be aware of the rare but increased risk of this adverse event. There are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen. link to cdc.gov
    • To date, two confirmed cases of TTS following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Moderna) have been reported to VAERS after more than 339 million doses of link to cdc.gov administered in the United States. Based on available data, there is not an increased risk for TTS after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination.
  • CDC and FDA are monitoring reports of link to cdc.gov (GBS) in people who have received the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine. GBS is a rare disorder where the body’s immune system damages nerve cells, causing muscle weakness and sometimes paralysis. Most people fully recover from GBS, but some have permanent nerve damage. After more than 13 million J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine doses administered, there have been around 161 preliminary reports of GBS identified in VAERS as of August 11, 2021. These cases have largely been reported about 2 weeks after vaccination and mostly in men, many 50 years and older. CDC will continue to monitor for and evaluate reports of GBS occurring after COVID-19 vaccination and will share more information as it becomes available.
  • Myocarditis and pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. As of August 11, 2021, VAERS has received 1,306 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis among people ages 30 and younger who received COVID-19 vaccine. Most cases have been reported after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), particularly in male adolescents and young adults. Through follow-up, including medical record reviews, CDC and FDA have confirmed 762 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis. CDC and its partners are investigating these reports to assess whether there is a relationship to COVID-19 vaccination. link to cdc.gov
  • Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 357 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through August 16, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,789 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the link to cdc.gov, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—link to cdc.gov.
357 million doses of vaccine given and a few dozen people had problems and probably a handful died, although that hasn’t been definitively proven.
So the odds of a side effect are not zero, but they do approach zero. 
The odds of getting COVID for a healthy 30 year old here (who has visited a bar in the last week) is over 50%. If you get it, your risk of dying is FAR greater than any risk associated with a vaccination.
That’s assuming you’re unvaccinated, that you live with at least one other unvaccinated person, and that person comes into casual contact with ten other people in a week., and ignores recommended public health protocols.
What does it take for you people to wake up and smell the effin’ coffee?
El_Tedo
El_Tedo
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
You are completely misrepresenting the risk analysis of people who are jab-hesitant.  No one is arguing that the so called vaccine doesn’t provide (for a brief time, anyway) some prophylactic protection against severe reactions and reduced chance of death from Covid infection. For the older/diabetic/obese, the risk/reward for taking the jab is strong.  For younger/healthy people, the risk/reward is entirely different (and, obviously so.)   Your example of a healthy 30 year old is ridiculous.  The odds of a healthy 30 year-old dying from Covid is statistically (virtually) zero. The long-term effects of injecting synthetic RNA into a human being are UNKNOWN.  Long term concerns about autoimmune diseases especially are very plausible. Given that the jabs ARE NOT sanitizing and that the virus will continue to mutate, long-term concerns about ADE are reasonable.
The truth is, YOU personally, would feel safer if OTHER people were vaccinated and your fears trump their own autonomy.  It is also true since you’ve obviously had two jabs already and you cannot undo that, even the thought that you may have made a permanent mistake to your own heath throws you into an emotional tizzy.  
Webej
Webej
2 years ago
Reply to  El_Tedo
People keep fudging the denominators of the risk data.
There were only 7 people >75 who died with Covid according to the New York coroner’s office (one of the areas hit hardest).
Risk is not stratified by age as much as by co-morbidity, of which the old are collectors (strong correlation)
dr Mark Makary stated a while back that of the 334 children (<18) who died with Covid during the pandemic, zero had no co-morbidities.
In the UK, 24 children died, 6 without severe co-morbidities (think leukemia).
I have read that the death count is >11,000 in Vaers. Reporting is not required, and estimated to cover 1% of incidents (many doctors have not heard of it; many dismiss any possible association with the vaccine). I am sure epidemiological mortality numbers will bear out that the consequences are much more serious. Already the sequelae are greater by far than the total of all past vaccinations over 30 years.
If the chance of dying of a plane crash is 1 in 10 million, this does not apply to people who don’t fly, and the risk for those who do is higher.
Many of the dead already had sky-high mortality risk without Covid, 2/3 had >6 co-morbidities, 25% > 10.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  El_Tedo
I get the feeling he is basing his math on aggregate population statistics vs subpopulation statistics with/without risk factors present. Getting Covid is a lot different than dying from it.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  El_Tedo
No, I am not misrepresenting anything. You are making a logically flawed, straw man argument.
The odds for a 30 year old dying of COVID are not high, but the odds of a thirty year old catching COVID and giving it to 7 or 8 other people is fairly high, if that thirty-year old hits the bars.
 And those people can pass the virus on to more people. Sooner or later a few of those low-risk young people are going to be on ventilators. It’s happening now. Capsiche?
You people are dumber than a sack of hammers.
Hell yes, I feel safer if other people are vaccinated…for the simple reason that I am safer, and so are you, and so is everybody.
 ” It is also true since you’ve obviously had two jabs already and you cannot undo that, even the thought that you may have made a permanent mistake to your own heath throws you into an emotional tizzy. “
It’s just math, stupid. Do the math.
I’m coming up on 3000 hours of treating  patients during the worst infectious disease outbreak in my professional career. What I am is educated, dedicated, informed, and damn sick and tired of idiots like you, who just make it harder for all of us to put this in the rearview mirror.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Why does everyone have to be vaccinated? Why can’t they have simply had Covid and pulled through? What people don’t get (including you? A doctor? Or a nurse?) is that if people get Covid once and survive, their probability of death or hospitalization from subsequent infection (“they” here meaning across the entire population vs applied to the individual) drops like a rock. By August 2022 the number of deaths due to Covid is going to look like the number of deaths from the flu, because effectively everyone will either have been vaccinated or had Covid once by then. That’s the point of the “herd immunity” that some people focus on.
Scooot
Scooot
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Hi Eddy, clearly the Vaccines work at the moment but I’d be interested in your opinion on Geert Vanden Bosche’s work.
The FAQ section is quite interesting and you can read a bit about him on the about page. 
Maybe targeting everyone regardless might turn out to be not such a good idea in due course. I’m fully vaccinated btw.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
I went down that rabbit hole some time back. My take on Vanden Bossche?
He is considered a real maverick among his own peers and he apparently  has a product of his own in the pipeline,  to promote, which can only make him someone to be considered  extremely biased, in my opinion.
His arguments are also largely  hypothetical rather than data driven. The general idea that vaccination always leads to resistant strains and that such mutations always result in problems down the line is not supported by the evidence, when we look at the history of vaccination. It does happen, sometimes. It’s something to be aware of. It’s a legitimate worry.
Once again, it comes down to benefit v. risk in the present moment.
Scooot
Scooot
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Thanks Eddy, I appreciate the reply. 
What makes me think there might be something to it is how Marek’s disease developed in Chickens. It started out as a mild infection but after years of non immunising vaccines it now causes widespread lymphoma and is nearly 100% fatal for any non vaccinated chickens that catch it. It’s a similar story with infectious bursal disease in poultry and feline calsivirus (so I’ve read). I don’t have a particular axe to grind one way or another, I’d just hope our decision makers don’t pin their views so hard to the mast they’ll be afraid to change tack. 
Anyway, for this reason I do respect individuals decisions to get vaccinated or not as we can’t possibly know for certain how this is going to develop, and I don’t agree with policies such as vaccine passports that effectively force people to go down a certain route against their own judgment. But that’s just my opinion 🙂 
Webej
Webej
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
 recovered from COVID and have good antibody titers
There is a common assumption in much of the press and commentary that your degree of immunity correlates to antibody titres.
This is simply not true. High antibody titres were measured in those who had been most severely ill.
Your body conserves resources by not producing amounts of antibodies until challenged. It conserves B-cells which have best shown the ability to produce high affinity antibodies (your body selects and matures for performance!).  Immunity to any pathogen cannot be measured by antibody titres, not to the measles, mumps, or anything else.
Recovered people have the most durable, robust, and broad protection.
They are rarely re-infected.
They have sterilizing immunity (cannot transmit) and form a firewall, unlike the vaccinated people who have leaky protection (against severe disease, not against infection)
Durable=long lasting.
Robust=strong humoral and innate trained response.
Broad=more antigen epitopes, including the envelope protein which is conserved across mutations.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
Good point.  I stand corrected on that.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Everyone at risk can get the vaccine. They are signing their own death warrant by not doing so. What other people do is of no concern, despite your claims. Covid is worldwide, and there is no stopping mutation or cross border transfer, no matter what anyone does. An ideal world only exists in peoples mind, and like it or not, this is a real world pandemic.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Another logically flawed straw man argument. Good try but no cigar. You’re flat-*ss wrong.
We can protect our own population very well and knock the hospitalizations way, way down very quickly  by getting everybody vaccinated in the US . This would be of such immense benefit, I can’t even list the many, many ways this would make the lives of all of us here better. Better for our kids, better for the economy. 
You damn sure can limit cross border transfer too, if the political will exist to do it. You just have to want to do it bad enough.
I’m tired of arguing with stupid people who think they know something. The Dunning-Krueger is off the charts here today. 
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
“You damn sure can limit cross border transfer too”
No, you can’t.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Get back to me when you can identify any country in the history of the world that has not had any illegal immigration or emigration. Even North Korea can’t pass either of those tests.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
“We can protect our own population very well and knock the hospitalizations way, way down very quickly  by getting everybody vaccinated in the US .”
Only 2% of the population (max) is at risk from hospitalization or death. The other 98% will get Covid and overcome it at home. That data is directly exposed in the aggregate population statistics, e.g. number of individuals having death/hospitalization divided by case counts. The population sample is randomly selected and large enough to guarantee that pronounement with high confidence.
JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
To be specific, my data is at a 99 percent confidence level with a .01 confidence interval, given death counts, hospitalization count, case count from CDC data and current US population. Someone else with a math background please correct me if I’ve screwed up that confidence level and interval.
“Everybody” doesn’t need to get vaccinated. Just that 2% of the population at risk.
ajc1970
ajc1970
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
The risk profile varies.  At the extremes…

If you’re age 65, obese and diabetic, have dependents, you’re an absolute fool not to get a COVID vaccine.

If you’re age 17, male, BMI 21 and healthy, no dependents and never hang out with old folks, you have some reason to take the wait & see approach. You’re in a group that COVID barely impacts and in a group that on the surface seems to suffer disproportionately from the COVID vax side effects
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  ajc1970
“If you’re age 17, male, BMI 21 and healthy, no dependents and never hang out with old folks, you have some reason to take the wait & see approach. “
No…no, no….that is NOT correct. 
The odds still STRONGLY favor getting vaccinated, sir. Even in the extreme case you just mentioned.
Your argument is deeply flawed.
Because….the virus doesn’t just get spread by old folks.  And 17 year old American kids aren’t known for living in solitude like Buddhist monks sequestered high in the Himalayas. 
The R0 for the Delta variant is roughly 8, from what I read. That’s about as infectious as chicken pox…..which is SO infectious that if one kid in a regular (non-isolation) hospital bed has it, the odds favor EVERY un-immunized kid in the entire hospital catching it. 
You can always create some straw man argument that SOME imagined perfectly isolated, very healthy, low risk person doesn’t need to be vaccinated. But that’s sh*tty logic and you can’t convince me with that kind of hand-waving, It simply fails as a persuasive argument.
You have to look at the risk to ordinary, real people…..and not just one person….but the masses of ordinary real people who take the occasional risk, and some who might contact other people who take lots of risks. 
ajc1970
ajc1970
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Individuals should be able to weigh the risks of the vaccine vs. the benefits.
The calculus is much different for the 2 extreme groups that I summoned (from nowhere).
The vaccine risks, especially long-term, aren’t fully known.  But for one of those 2 groups, the benefits TO THE INDIVIDUAL are minuscule.
Your concern about that 1 group spreading… if you want to live in a bubble, you wrap yourself in the bubble, you don’t get to bubble-wrap the other 7 billion people.
If you catch it from that 17yo, it’s *your* fault for being out and exposing yourself to him. Not his fault for having it and exposing you (assuming he’s asymptomatic).  *You* needed to better protect yourself, not him.
So yeah, I’m wholly unconcerned about him spreading it.
ajc1970
ajc1970
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
And let’s take a step back from the morality and who should own the burdens and what obligations we have as individuals to the rest of society (clearly we differ there).
wrt “

Your argument is deeply flawed.

Because….the virus doesn’t just get spread by old folks.”
I would say you have a flawed argument here.
So far all the COVID19 vaccines are non-sterilizing.
That same 17yo, vax’d or unvax’d will still catch COVID and still spread it.
Vaccinating him only deals with the symptoms (and possibly the viral load at different stages of the infection).
Vaccinating him doesn’t keep him from speading it to the old folks.
There is a chance (nobody knows the odds of it) that being vax’d makes that 17yo *more* likely to spread it, because it’s less likely he’ll notice symptoms (need to balance that with the chance that he has a lower viral load and it’s harder for him to spread it).
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Yes, the numbers do make the case and here are some to chew on.  Whether you believe the numbers or not, you still have ~1.5 million reports of some kind of adverse effect after taking a virus inoculation.
Sure, not a huge number against the number of total jabs but as they say, this reporting is voluntary, most people don’t even know of this dB and most MD’s have too much other work to do, so don’t bother filling anything out that isn’t required by the government.
There are increasing reports of people dying 10-14 weeks after getting jabbed.  It may still only be a relatively small percentage but if YOU are the one it happens to, then the other numbers don’t matter.
I don’t post this to argue with you because by now, I know your mind is made up and there are no possible facts that will change it.  However,  others will read the info I post and hopefully profit by it.
OpenVAERS Data
VAERS is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System put in place in 1990. It is a voluntary reporting system that has been estimated to account for only 1% (see the Lazarus Report) of vaccine injuries.
OpenVAERS is built from the HHS data available for download at http://vaers.hhs.gov.
1,384,264 REPORTS OF VACCINE ADVERSE EVENTS IN VAERS
    12,791 Post-COVID Vaccine Reported Deaths
    51,242 Post-COVID Vaccine Reported Hospitalizations
  571,830 COVID Vaccine Adverse Event Reports
Through August 06, 2021
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
I already explained numerous times that VAERS is not an accurate source of data on side effects. It is a catch-all, self reported and not curated by anybody.
You apparently have a very short memory.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
It’s STILL a dB of side effects that people and their MD’s claim that they experienced.  The CDC and the FDA do look at the dB.  There is a similar one in Europe called the EUDRS, which has a lot more entries.
Just today, I was watching MSNBC and they were doing a segment from Staten Island, NY where a decent percentage of MD’s and nurses are refusing to take an mRNA/DNA shot, despite a law from NY State requiring them to do so.  In an attempt to supposedly look even handed and show the opposing side of this argument, they spoke to an MD who was refusing to take the shots.  And I was heartened to hear him say that the VAERS dB incidences needed to be examined and explained first.  That 12k deaths needed explanation.  AGAIN, this is a practicing MD in the hospital.
Doesn’t the government examine all UFO sightings, of which there are thousands each and every year?  Why not examine all VAERS entries also and explain them away, if possible?
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
“I certainly encourage everyone to get vaccinated…..  My understanding is that kids will be getting vaccinated before the end of the year. The sooner the better.”
This is where I will have to strongly disagree.  No matter whatever politically motivated full approval the FDA gave to Pfizer today, the mRNA “vaccine” is still experimental.  Children, including all the college age kids who are being forced to get the vaccine or give up their college dreams, are at very low risk from COVID.  The younger you are, the lower the risk.  You can look at the CDC provisional death data by year link to data.cdc.gov to satisfy yourself on this point. 
The serious effects FROM the vaccine are almost certainly more of a risk than serious effects from getting COVID.  The question has not been answered at this point.  So while I would encourage older people to get the vaccine, particularly if they are not going to have any more children, and those with comorbidities, not EVERYONE should get it.  Especially not children.  And not those who have already had COVID either.
And NO ONE should be discriminated against, least of all young people, because they have NOT received the vaccine.
Actually the lying imbecile is on TV right now urging vaccinations for children.  Another reason for impeachment.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  tbergerson
None of that changes the odds for getting sick. It has f**king nothing to do with politics. It has to do with epidemiology and the risk v. benefit of vaccination. It’s just math.
And although we might not know everything, and although a few people might have side effects now or in the future (although this is unlikely if history means anything), we do know ENOUGH now to see that the benefits of vaccination, ON THE WHOLE, favor getting vaccinated. Not by a little. By a mile.
I posted above the entire list of actual OBSERVED side effects…..and the odds of having problems with the vaccine are NOT zero….but they are less than a million to one. 
The math is not that complicated. Do the math.
The odds of an unvaccinated person of any age and any condition catching COVID are higher than any possible risk of vaccination, period, end of message….and other than the extreme cases people keep citing in their ridiculous straw man arguments round here….the odds are MUCH higher.
And people who think they can shake off COVID and not become very ill or die…..because they’re just too healthy, are just whistling in the dark.
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Not so cut and dry, though. I had COVID, wasn’t pleasant, and tested positive for the antibodies two weeks ago. There is NO clinical evidence a vaccine would be beneficial to me now. If fact most adverse cases of the vaccine are related to already having the virus.
ie, never infected, a vaccine appears to keep you from the hospital. Already exposed, you may very well land in the hospital.
tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
Catching COVID yes.  But that is not the point.  At all.  Having COVID isnt an issue.  The only issue is if you become seriously ILL from it.  And young people in the aggregate do NOT.  As a result, for people below some age, the RISK is higher from the vaccine than from COVID.  So the benefits of the vaccination DO NOT exceed the risks by a mile for SOME GROUPS.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
2 years ago
Hm, not sure what this story is about, that only vaccine gives you immunity, and surviving the infection is just not good enough?
Some guy, who was stupid enough to boast about things he has no clue about, died from something.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
I have read about some people who got Covaxxinated, got Covid and died anyway. Maybe Phil would have died, even had he gotten Covaxxinated.
Phil’s vitamin D level might have been low. I saw a link yesterday to a Dr. Chris Martinson Youtube, which had a headline that it cut mortality risk by 89%. Two British studies noted by Dr. Campbell, determined that good vitamin D levels would likely keep one out of the hospital.
What is with the public health agencies one track mind that vaccines are only solution allowed? Dr. Robert Malone, an inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology, worked on the issue of repurposing existing drugs to treat Covid-19. He even had positive things to say about Ivermectin, during an interview on the Intellectual People Podcast.
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
He took vitamin D
davebarnes2
davebarnes2
2 years ago
Phil died. …Be like Phil if you are a supporter of Fat Donnie from Queens.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
2 years ago
Ivermectin is anti-viral medication fully approved by the FDA in 1985. Over two BILLION prescriptions for it have been filled, worldwide.
It is also used to treat infectious diseases in livestock and horses.
ANYONE referring to it as “an experimental drug used primarily on horses” is either a complete MORON or is INTENTIONALLY misleading you.
I am very surprised to see such absolute garbage appear within a post on this blog.
El_Tedo
El_Tedo
2 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
Anyone referring to it as ‘horse treatments’ is just being a horse’s arce.  
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
Don’t be surprised.  There is a decent percentage of morons on this blog.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
2 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
I heard on the MSM news yesterday that TWO (2) people in the whole state of MS supposedly wound up in the hospital because they took too much ivermectin. LOL
I wonder how many drug OD’s there were in MS yesterday?
Hansa Junchun
Hansa Junchun
2 years ago
Why exactly are the unvaxed automatically presumed to be a biological thread to the public? Shouldn’t there actually be, I don’t know, ILLNESS involved? Sorry. I will not be discriminated against on the basis of my medical history. That was written into law a while ago and still is in force. 
randocalrissian
randocalrissian
2 years ago
Reply to  Hansa Junchun
The unvaccinated must be granted protected class status prior to them potentially being discriminated against in the legal sense. Sorry.
thimk
thimk
2 years ago
I have a nasty cataract in my left eye that I have been trying to get removed for sometime.  AND once again I hear from the doctor’s office no elective surgeries are being done.  Trying to obtain routine medical procedures here in Florida during this Covid debacle has been  daunting.   
bubblelife
bubblelife
2 years ago
Reply to  thimk
Perhaps send a thank you note to your governor?
El_Tedo
El_Tedo
2 years ago
I’ll be Mish was wearing his dancing shoes as he penned this screed. 
KyleW
KyleW
2 years ago
I can understand people being skeptical of the vaccine. It’s new. People don’t trust the government or Big Pharma. People don’t like being forced to get a shot or wear a mask. Like with a stubborn donkey, sometimes the harder you push the more resistance you get. If you want people to get the vaccine it’s best to make your case and let them decide for themselves.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
2 years ago
Reply to  KyleW
I suspect FDA approval would go a long way toward convincing many to get vaxxed.
As long as it remains experimental and with no legal recourse if something goes wrong years later many will not take it / view it with suspicion.
Hansa Junchun
Hansa Junchun
2 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Which FDA? You mean, the one that approved those miracle Pfizer wonder drugs Vioxx and Rizulin?
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
For the simple minded, yes.  For anyone who has read/watched the evidence of damage that the vaccines cause internally, whether the bought & paid for FDA approves a vaccine or not should mean absolutely nothing.
davidyjack
davidyjack
2 years ago
Reply to  KyleW
Most of these anti vaxxers are also against mask wearing and social distancing.  They don’t want to a D*MN thing to keep their family, friends and neighbors and society safe.  It is really pathetic!!!!  At least put on a good quality mask (KN95 or KN95, FFP2).    
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
Reply to  KyleW
That’s the problem. mRNA is at least 10-yr old tech used for gene therapy for prostrate and colo-rectal cancers that couldn’t get FDA approval all that time. Have a director in such research at UofM with over 36 published, peer reviewed papers including at the NIH. Normal vaccine tech takes 8 years to develop, 90% are never approved because of phase 3 long term trials, and we’re expected to just trust “they don’t reasonably expect any long term effects” for this tech that was never intended as a vaccine.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Something close to 35 million Americans have had covid and have antibodies like those who are vaccinated. I fail to see the reasoning why these people should be compelled to take a vaccine against a disease that they have already contracted, survived and possess antibodies against as much as those vaccinated. Calling it a patriotic duty in this case sounds false. It’s more like “you take this vaccine you don’t need so I can feel safer and better about myself”. 
LostNOregon
LostNOregon
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
According to my wife (MS in Public Health and Epidemiology who has sat in on tons of scientific discussions on CoVID), you get different antibodies from the vaccine than getting CoVID and recovering.  The vaccines give a wider range of antibodies giving you more protection down the road.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  LostNOregon
Show me the study.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
1. As you should know, the “immunity” achieved with the vax is against specific configurations of the spike protein.  This is why people are not protected against new variants that have mutated to change the spike protein config as they try to find another entry method to the cell.
2. The new vaxxes don’t kill the virus, they apparently only weaken it, which allows it to mutate.  I am not sure why or how the vaxes work this way.
3. Natural immunity doesn’t just focus on the spike protein config but uses other tells that generate much better and more lasting immunity.  This approach to immunity has been “perfected” over millions of years and involves T and B cells (at least).
Here’s a study that should help you though it isn’t about a direct comparison with immunity from the vaccines and Covid. 
JULY 16, 2020
Scientists uncover SARS-CoV-2-specific T cell immunity in recovered COVID-19 and SARS patients
by Duke-NUS Medical School
The T cells, along with antibodies, are an integral part of the human immune response against viral infections due to their ability to directly target and kill infected cells. A Singapore study has uncovered the presence of virus-specific T cell immunity in people who recovered from COVID-19 and SARS, as well as some healthy study subjects who had never been infected by either virus.
The study by scientists from Duke-NUS Medical School, in close collaboration with the National University of Singapore’s (NUS) Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine, (YLLSM), Singapore General Hospital (SGH) and National Centre for Infectious Diseases (NCID) was published in Nature. The findings suggest infection and exposure to coronaviruses induces long-lasting memory T cells, which could help in the management of the current pandemic and in vaccine development against COVID-19.
The team tested subjects who recovered from COVID-19 and found the presence of SARS-CoV-2-specific T cells in all of them, which suggests that T cells play an important role in this infection. Importantly, the team showed that patients who recovered from SARS 17 years ago after the 2003 outbreak, still possess virus-specific memory T cells and displayed cross-immunity to SARS-CoV-2.
….
 
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Thank you for the study and I do not doubt that because of the specific nature of the RNA vaccines the acquired immunity from the vaccines could be different from that acquired through getting covid itself. LostNOregan claimed that his wife told him that the RNA vaccines give better immunity than that confered by getting the disease which if true would be a big positive for geting vaccinated. The study you gave me is from July 2020 and doesn’t say anything about the vaccine which at that time still in testing although it does say that covid could confere long-term immunity which is very good also. I may be wrong but for the moment I am not aware of any serious studies that claim the vaccines give better immunity.
Lip
Lip
2 years ago
Reply to  LostNOregon
Vaccines that encode only for one protein give wider immunity than natural immunity that was exposed to all 28 (or so) expressed proteins of the virus? Pardon me for being skeptical about which one gives better protection down the road. That they induce different anti-bodies is proven. Which one is better long term has not been established.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  LostNOregon
According to my wife (MS in Public Health and Epidemiology who has sat in on tons of scientific discussions on CoVID), you get different antibodies from the vaccine than getting CoVID and recovering.  The vaccines give a wider range of antibodies giving you more protection down the road.
Vaccines give less robust and more limited immunity, which is why they need regular booster shots while natural immunity never requires you to get reinfected to obtain protection.  One of the major problems is that the vacicnes dont motivate the T-cells, the same as a natural infection does not the memory B cells.
This entry rubber stamps your wife’s contention but it is the usual BS from Dr. Francis Collins, NIH Director, establishment tool and media whore.  I would suggest instead that you ignore the article and read the comments (currently at a count of 220), which are often detailed and by medically educated people.
How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection
Posted on June 22nd, 2021 by Dr. Francis Collins
Another article:
March 30, 2021
T cells induced by COVID-19 infection respond to new virus variants -U.S. study
CHICAGO (Reuters) – T cells generated in response to infection with the original version of the novel coronavirus appear to also protect against three of the most concerning new virus variants, according to a U.S. laboratory study released on Tuesday.
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Did having Covid save Valentine?
Is there any data that suggest it will save anyone else?
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish

Did he really have it before or not for starters? He said he
did but was any evidence presented proving it? Secondly getting and surviving
covid has shown that you do acquire immunity just like taking the vaccine. If
one is better than the other has not yet been proved. Acquired immunity whether
naturally or by vaccine can be overwhelmed by being exposed to an exceptionally
large amount of virus and maybe that happened to him. It is never 100%. Third of all I said before anecdotes
are not evidence. They however are very useful PR and marketing methods that
are prevalent in publicity and ads. This is an ad and as well know ads are
made to sell and not to inform. I am vaccinated as is my whole family. For me
it is no big deal because I think it will work fine for a while and after we
will see but I do not see this type of ad as being effective and even
counter-effective because it is very easy to find holes in the argument. Some
people will not get the vaccine because of their risk/reward view and you are
going to have to accept it. Believe me if this were a real killer like we saw
in the past then everybody would be fighting to get it but covid is not. I understand that you as a public figure want to do your part but putting up this as a way to convince others is not going to work. It’s too much like medical advertising. 

JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
He didn’t ever have Covid. He thought he had Covid, but in reality had something else.
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
I really wish SOMEONE would offer a rational justification for vaccination in cases like this. I too was diagnosed and recovered from COVID – been there, done that, still tested for antibodies 2 weeks ago, yet my employer is requiring the vaccination anyway.
Clearly the vaccinations don’t work the way they originally advertised, don’t stop transmissions and mutations, but do avoid the hospital, and now you’ll need it every 8 months till when? I ALREADY HAD IT!!!
This being the current environment, then it would reasonable to argue that companies who require vaccines of their employees who already have antibodies, yet their employees become harmed by the shot should be guilty of coercion.
The point is to have antibodies, not to have a never ending shot of something that over 10 years was never approved long term for what it’s being used for.
If I didn’t already have it, that would be a different matter, but not one my or my family are in now.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
The antibodies from natural immunity are far better than those from the vaccines!
——-
Natural infection vs vaccination – Which gives more protection
Almost 40% of new COVID patients were vaccinated, compared to just 1% who had been previously infected
 July 13, 2021
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
March 30, 2021
T cells induced by COVID-19 infection respond to new virus variants -U.S. study
CHICAGO (Reuters) – T cells generated in response to infection with the original version of the novel coronavirus appear to also protect against three of the most concerning new virus variants, according to a U.S. laboratory study released on Tuesday.
Several recent studies have shown that certain variants of the novel coronavirus can undermine immune protection from antibodies and vaccines.
But antibodies – which block the coronavirus from attaching to human cells – may not tell the whole story, according to the study by researchers at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID). T cells appear to play an important additionally protective role.
“Our data, as well as the results from other groups, shows that the T cell response to COVID-19 in individuals infected with the initial viral variants appears to fully recognize the major new variants identified in the UK, South Africa and Brazil,” said Andrew Redd of the NIAID and Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine who led the study, which was published online by Open Forum Infectious Diseases.
….
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Sadly, older people don’t have a strong T-cell response. Once we are beyond about 30, the involution of the Thymus decreases the production of naive T-cells, which is what you need for battling a novel virus like Covid. The older, previously trained T-cells will not help against a new invader.
This is no doubt a main reason why the young fare better against Covid, but also is a reason they will be less prone to reinfection than people over 30.
Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Good article but just because T & B cells (and most everything else0 declines with age doesn’t mean that there aren’t enough to do the job required.  Perhaps a vaccine would be helpful for the immunocompromised and for those with comorbidities but that is not 100% of everybody. 
And when I say vaccine, I am referring to real vaccines, created via dead/weakened virus particles, not these mRNA/DNA gene therapy innoculations which don’t create quality immunity, because all they are training the immune system to do is to recognize a specific spike protein config.
In a normal infection, your immune system will analyze the invader as a whole and remember much more than than just the configuration of the spike protein in the form of B & T cells.  That is why natural immunity can generally handle variants and mRNA/DNA shots can’t, so therefore will require boosters for new variants with new spike protein configurations.
Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Vaccines against SARS using whole viruses had issues with ADE, while vaccines based on adenovirus and the S-protein did not, which is why the latter two approaches was used for SARS-COV2.

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