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Dear Anti-Vaxxers Let’s Discuss the Best Covid Data That Exists Anywhere

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120 comments on Dear Anti-Vaxxers Let’s Discuss the Best Covid Data That Exists Anywhere

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Dear Anti-Vaxxers

Dear anti-vaxxers and “show us the real data” advocates, Alberta has the best data anywhere on Covid. 

  • Since Jan 1, 2021, 0.2% of people with one dose (5,597/2,847,380) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the first immunization date
  • Since Jan 1, 2021, 0% of people with two doses (937/2,482,401) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the second immunization date
  • 94.7% of cases (125,376/132,373) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
  • 92.1% of hospitalized cases (5,270/5,719) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
  • 86.9% of COVID-19 deaths (692/796) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date

Vaccination Effectiveness By Vaccine

Cases, Deaths, Hospitalizations by Age and Time Delay 

Show Us the Data

Anti-Vaxxers the New Flat Earthers 

Demanding a Reasonable Comparison

Alberta Results

The Alberta data shows 87% to 95% effectiveness vs US numbers which show 99%. 

Some of that difference is undoubtedly due to Canada partially using a vaccine that’s  less effective than the two used in the US.

Four Questions of the Day

  • Isn’t 86% good enough? 
  • Can anyone refute those numbers? 
  • Does anyone fail to understand the implications?
  • Does anyone fail to see why it’s important when the second shot was administered? 

Bonus Chart – Highly Vaccinated States

The above chart is from the WSJ article Highly Vaccinated States Keep Worst Covid-19 Outcomes in Check as Delta Spreads

  • Every state with a higher vaccination rate the US overall had a lower hospitalization rate (20 states)
  • Every state with a higher hospitalization rate then the US average had a lower vaccination rate(13 states)

Key Questions

  1. Dear doubters, what is it about the Alberta data you fail to understand?
  2. Dear doubters, what is it about the WSJ chart that you fail to understand?
  3. Will this change any minds?

We will soon enough see preposterous explanations and rebuttals to questions 1 and 2.

It’s easy to answer question 3 right now and that answer is few, if any.

Why?

  • Many of the Anti-Vaxxers are the new Flat Earthers No amount of data will convince them of anything. 
  • Most of the rest base their case on preposterous conspiracy theories or belief they are in some sort of valid anti-government protest. They too will concoct excuses.

For further discussion of very similar US data, please consider 70% in US Have at Least 1 Vaccination Shot, Who are the Holdouts?

OK flat-earthers have at it.

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Mike Shedlock

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Elevatorman
Elevatorman
2 years ago
Some of us are senior citizens that have never had the flu or missed work in 40 years.  It’s too bad all the sickly people are dictating government health policy and they have helpful propagandists like Mish.
Here’s a newsflash for you.  Healthy people are always able to get out of bed in the morning no matter what and they never miss work. 
Never. 
We have redefined what it means to be healthy and the germaphobes and hypochondriacs are taking over.  Yes Mish, I’m looking at you.  Work on your diet and resilience and you might have a different viewpoint.  Be fussy about what you stick into your body and you will not die of cancer like everyone else.
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Webej
Webej
2 years ago
3 tell-tale signs that people are being disingenuous and less than honest
  • They studiously ignore natural immunity and insist on vaccinating the already immune
  • They pretend that a death of somebody with 6 months life expectancy is equivalent to an infant that dies of influenza or the number of 18 year old boys that die in combat. (Tens of thousands of people die of heat waves, but we cannot pretend that they would otherwise still be alive … most were already on the grim reaper’s to-do list)
  • They cannot particularize the risks and keep making comparisons using generalized risks which do not apply!
Even on the Diamond Princess (mostly old codgers), there were people sharing a bunk who were not infected, probably due to pre-existing immunity, so your risk of catching Covid (and its attendant risks) starts off smaller than your chance of being exposed to vaccine risks (100% if you vaccinate), which are greater than all vaccine risks combined over the previous 20 years
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Webej
Webej
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
Cannot edit post…. The first point should have been
  • Refuse to note that the most important variable (of many) in prevalence is seasonal, lining up with previous decades
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Webej
Webej
2 years ago
Without context the percentages are meaningless:
  • The unvaccinated included pretty much everybody in January/February (Canada was slower to start vaccination). Often the partially vaccinated are included in the unvaccinated numbers. So we have no way of knowing the relative size of the two groups for any period of time, which is the same as missing the denominator!
  • In fact, the US 99% number includes all people since March 2020, and is therefore much larger than the vaccinated group.
  • The CDC issued an internal memo showing 15% of hospitalizations were fully vaccinated in the most recent period.
  • In Israel, 85% of hospitalizations are vaccinated. The same high percentages are being shown by other high vaccine countries such as Iceland, UAE, Seychelles, Gibralter.
  • I am on vacation and need to be tested every leg of the journey. Only the vaccinated go untested, and have every chance to spread the delta variant, particularly when they are asymptomatic. Vaccinated infections are only revealed when they are hospitalized for Covid symptoms. There have never been scientifically validated claims about the vaccines to stop transmission/spread.
By the way, I do not think that the vaccines do not hinder symptomatic disease!
  • However, the risk to any particular person is not the average risk. Two thirds of the deaths are among people with 5 or more co-morbidities; 25% among people with 10 (!) or more co-morbidities. According to the NY Coroner’s office, there were only 7 people >75 years old who died with a positive PCR test without co-morbidities. For the immune-compromised the vaccine usually makes sense. For a lot of others it is not clear that the balance of risks favor vaccination. (Covid is less risky than taking the pill, than a visit to a chicken pox party, or driving 6 months, IF you have no underlying co-morbidities. Risk is also far more stratified by health than by age — it just happens that most people collect co-morbidities with age, and old people are already at a much greater chance of death).
  • On top of that, there is strong evidence that natural immunity is more robust, long-lasting, and broader (more similar viruses).
  • Natural immunity is sterilizing, and stops transmission!
  • There is also considerable evidence that vaccination harms natural immunity. The attempt to vaccinate the immune is crazy!
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Mitchell Bupp
Mitchell Bupp
2 years ago
I had COVID and it is a nasty flu with a very high survival rate. I’m not getting the vaxx. Mish, using stacked and useless data like the official death count where you die with COVID not of COVID is a disservice to everyone and undercuts your credibility. The PCR test is a joke and can not differentiate between influenza A/B and COVID. It is clear there as abuse of the data and the mining of the data. Mike you buying into fear porn.
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Mike 2112
Mike 2112
2 years ago
Nothing in there about covid survivors and their immunity. It’s like the Pharma and Medical establishments dont want to talk about that group, their reinfection rates or their reinfection mortality rates.
Why?
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prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
The gold standard for proving the effectiveness of a medicine is the double-blind clinical trial. Pfizer’s 6-month double-blind trial showed ZERO mortality benefit for the vaccinated group. In fact more people died in the vaccinated group than in the placebo group!
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Wave goodbye to mRNA vaccines.  Sell Moderna/Pfizer short?  A number of antivirals are set to come to market in the next 6-9 months.  Will be a boon to 3rd world countries.
COVID: 90% of patients treated with new Israeli drug discharged in 5 days
The Phase II trial for an Israeli COVID drug saw some 29 out of 30 patients, moderate to serious, recover within days.
By ROSSELLA TERCATIN  
AUGUST 5, 2021 22:24
Some 93% of 90 coronavirus serious patients treated in several Greek hospitals with a new drug developed by a team at Tel Aviv’s Sourasky Medical Center as part of the Phase II trial of the treatment were discharged in five days or fewer.
The Phase II trial confirmed the results of Phase I, which was conducted in Israel last winter and saw 29 out of 30 patients in moderate to serious condition recover within days.
“The main goal of this study was to verify that the drug is safe,” Prof. Nadir Arber said. “To this day we have not registered any significant side effect in any patient from both groups.”
…..
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Dean_70
Dean_70
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Problem is that we don’t know the long-term results so any harmful effects cannot be disproved. They have thrown science by the waste side: link to rumble.com
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FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Wouldn t know exactly how it works , my opinion though is that Mish being a fn influencer has already been bribed by the fn establishment,  it most likely started somewhere around the election campaign and the consequently and undoubtedly rigged  results !  DON T BE A FOOL SONNY FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL  !
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Jackula
Jackula
2 years ago
More nuanced analysis of the data: link to youtube.com
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CristiC
CristiC
2 years ago
Dear Mish, the debate is not fair because your presentation format/charts clearly beats the format that I can use to express my vaccine-skepticism. You are also insulting by calling all anti-vaxx and flat earth.
You mention Alberta. Mish, you are good with charts and numbers. I point you to this Canadian stats. Let me tell you what you should look for.
EXCESS DEATHS.
In 2021, Alberta is plague with an insidious phenomenon that is keeping the deaths on the upper boundary of the charted channel. But if you look at feb 2020, the distribution swings from upper to lower boundary. Are there any deaths still in Alberta caused by Covid in 2021? Or is it something else? Same chart also shows for Israel. You can find that for yourself or I can post the chart somewhere and pass a link to it. However, the UK is not showing this pattern. In the UK, for about 4 weeks, the excess death trend went negative. Which is what everyone should expect. But UK is using AstraZeneca vaccine. Israel is using Pfizer. Canada is using mRNA (mostly Pfizer).
So, there is a pattern emerging which may point to states that are using mRNA vaccines to continue to have excess deaths but a much flatter shape, not like the pandemic wave. And I believe those are caused by vaccines. The UK appears to have a reduction in excess death following vaccination but it is very short lived.
If you vaccinated with mRNA, please check regularly with your doctor. The safety 6 months study published by Pfizer on 29 Jul, shows that 9 vaccinated died vs 5 in the placebo group for issues with the cardio-vascular system. This is a clear statistical signal. You know charts, Mish, you know statistics…. please check yourself regularly with your doctor.
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CristiC
CristiC
2 years ago
Reply to  CristiC

Let’s quote the Pfizer report:
“During the blinded, controlled period, 15 BNT162b2 and 14 placebo recipients died; during the open-label period, 3 BNT162b2 and 2 original placebo recipients who received BNT162b2 after unblinding died. None of these deaths were considered related to BNT162b2 by investigators”
One should note that in the open-label period of the trial, the placebo group was offered the chance to vaccinate to be protected in the real world. During this phase, 3 more original vaccinated died plus 2 placebo that accepted to be vaccinated. One could sum those deaths to the vaccinated group for a total of 20 to 14. Anyway, here is the table of these deaths. The first column is that of vaccinated, the second column is that of placebo. If one adds all death causes related to the cardio-vascular system, the score is 9 vaccinated to 5 placebo. We do not know the death cause of the 5 participants in the open-label period. 
Deaths 15 14

Acute respiratory failure 0 1
*** Aortic rupture 0 1
*** Arteriosclerosis 2 0
Biliary cancer metastatic 0 1
— COVID-19 0 2
— COVID-19 pneumonia 1 0
*** Cardiac arrest 4 1
*** Cardiac failure congestive 1 0
*** Cardiorespiratory arrest 1 1
Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease 1 0
Death 0 1
Dementia 0 1
Emphysematous cholecystitis 1 0
Hemorrhagic stroke 0 1
*** Hypertensive heart disease 1 0
Lung cancer metastatic 1 0
Metastases to liver 0 1
Missing 0 1
Multiple organ dysfunction syndrome 0 2
*** Myocardial infarction 0 2
Overdose 0 1
Pneumonia 0 2
Sepsis 1 0
Septic shock 1 0
Shigella sepsis 1 0
Unevaluable event 1 0
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FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Reply to  CristiC
….you are preaching in the desert I am afraid , Mish is already in the establishment’s pockets…..NO doubt about it !
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Jackula
Jackula
2 years ago
Where is the data on whether or not they had Covid already? Iraeli’s broke that super important piece of data out.. people from past Covid hot spots are probably more likely to get vaccinated.
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Madpaddler8
Madpaddler8
2 years ago
I see no data or interpretation of data on the severe adverse events…
They are real and happening to some. They are inherent is clinical trial data or lack thereof according to some experts.  How many/how severe is the million $ question.
It would appear any negative data is actively suppressed on both Social and Mainstream Media. At least my personal experience has seen much muting/suppression as it’s just as bad as blocking Trump this last year.
Israeli data, a country with high vaccination rates seems opposite, why?
No mRNA pharmaceuticals have ever been used before Pfizer/BioNtech , Moderna, Astrazeneca until 12/20.
Many pharmaceutical companies have previously attempted mRNA technologies and given up.
The polyethylene glycol and SM-102 used in the lipids to sneak genetic messenger data into the cells have known adverse reactions/hypersensitivity and Moderna gave up on regular frequently used mRNA drugs for this reason using it only in vaccines that are used very infrequent or annual use to reduce these negative effects from rearing their ugly head.
In 12/20 when Trump threatened firing if vaccines were not approved quickly as death expectations were estimated at 10’s of millions, these unwanted negative effects seemed worthwhile for the greater good but history has proven that only a fraction of the previously expected deaths occurred.
If A.D.E. has shown to destroy later immune function as the antibodies deplete, potentially causing mutations- why are we experiencing this outbreak in mid summer with maximum vitamin d levels that normally happens in winter and the ADE theories being now supported by the admission of repeated & frequent boosters?
If normal trials to properly evaluate safety & efficacy takes 5-10 years, mRNA has been experimental for decades without proven side effect free success- what changed other than political pressures this last year and now billions more in previously forecasted huge profits by the manufacturers which are now raising forecasts even more after recent price increases.
Why have our supposed medical professionals been flip-flopping or simply lying about the origination of Covid, funding of gain of Function research, wether to mask or not, being fully protected when vaccinated, now needing routine boosters and still needing masks & distance even when boosted – Why should we trust these same people now to accept this yet unproven technology with such media suppression of so many important facts … What really changed?
Maybe some of us are skeptical for valid reasoning until time & science better settle these profound issues.  
 
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Mish, I just provided a direct answer to your questions 1, 2, and 3 but it appears you are going to moderate away the answer. It is a completely balanced, rational, and science based answer, so why the moderation? Are you afraid Google will screen out the article?
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
People understand that the Covid vaccine prevents hospitalization/death *for people who have comorbidities that put those people at risk of hospitalization/death*. On the other hand, likely 98% of people haven’t got the comorbidities that put them at risk of hospitalizaton/death. I think that’s where the disconnect is occuring. The difference of opinion is, “who is over reacting to the threat?” The vaxers say the anti-vaxers are over reacting because the vaccine is safe, so why not get it anyway? The anti-vaxers say, since I don’t have the comorbidities that put me at risk of hospitalization/death, why should I take any risk at all by getting the vaccine? No one is crazy. Both sides see the other side as over reacting. Personally, I’m sure there are hundreds of diseases I could be vaccinated for that I have essentially 0% chance of ever getting, but why fatigue my immune system with useless innoculatons?
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Mish, thank you for ultimately deciding to post this. I was trying to edit it to say “0% chance of hospitalization/death” when it went to moderation. I am almost 100% sure I will get Covid at some point, but I *believe* that due to my utter lack of comorbidities, I will not be hospitalized or die from it. Knock on wood. I will get the “right” vaccination for this when it comes along. They are still working on vaccines.
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FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Great….for the time being anyway, although some Israeli experts won ‘t agree  …. the vaxxed ones, not getting sick, nor dying, have become MUTATION BREEDERS….we ll see where that takes us, say a year from now….not to mention the long term undermining of the natural immune system !  In the meantime, pharma goons are making billions….THAT s what it s all about !  Are you long Pfizer, or Moderna by any chance Mish ?
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FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels
….or is this merely click bait ?  Must pay off with all that publicity annoyingly popping up all over your articles…
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prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
4.5 billion vaccine doses administered and the daily rate of new infections today is HIGHER than at any point before the vaccines became available.
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Mike 2112
Mike 2112
2 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
And this outbreak is during the summer, which was a quiet time for covid last yr.
Coincidence that this  is happening after mass use of the vax?
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
The new EU Digital Covid ID includes previous infection (has antibodies) as a valid qualification for their EU wide pass.
———–
The EU Digital COVID Certificate Regulation entered into application on 01 July 2021. EU citizens and residents will now be able to have their Digital COVID Certificates issued and verified across the EU.
What is the EU Digital COVID Certificate?
An EU Digital COVID Certificate is a digital proof that a person has either
– been vaccinated against COVID-19
– received a negative test result or
– recovered from COVID-19
Key features of the certificate
– Digital and/or paper format
– with QR code
– free of charge
– in national language and English
– safe and secure
– valid in all EU countries
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Jackula
Jackula
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Problem with this is the antibodies fade quickly but the t-cell memory provides the long term resistance.
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Jackula
Unsure what point you are trying to make.  Natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity and natural antibodies work better than mRNA antibodies, which should be obvious given that it is the vaccinated that are getting new “breakthrough” infections.  That’s something that does not seem to be occurring much at all in those who successfully battled through Covid on their own.
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Jackula
Jackula
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
yeah sorry too brief..how does one prove one had Covid to the authorities? Serological antibody and t-cell tests lose 20% sensitivity per month.
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Mike 2112
Mike 2112
2 years ago
Reply to  Jackula
This study found Covid 2 TCell memory from a 2003 outbreak in the body 17 yrs later
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike 2112
Wow!  Nice find!!
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens
PLOS
Published: July 27, 2015
Abstract
Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission could thus allow very virulent strains to circulate in a population. Here we show experimentally that immunization of chickens against Marek’s disease virus enhances the fitness of more virulent strains, making it possible for hyperpathogenic strains to transmit. Immunity elicited by direct vaccination or by maternal vaccination prolongs host survival but does not prevent infection, viral replication or transmission, thus extending the infectious periods of strains otherwise too lethal to persist. Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts.
Author Summary
There is a theoretical expectation that some types of vaccines could prompt the evolution of more virulent (“hotter”) pathogens. This idea follows from the notion that natural selection removes pathogen strains that are so “hot” that they kill their hosts and, therefore, themselves. Vaccines that let the hosts survive but do not prevent the spread of the pathogen relax this selection, allowing the evolution of hotter pathogens to occur. This type of vaccine is often called a leaky vaccine. When vaccines prevent transmission, as is the case for nearly all vaccines used in humans, this type of evolution towards increased virulence is blocked. But when vaccines leak, allowing at least some pathogen transmission, they could create the ecological conditions that would allow hot strains to emerge and persist. This theory proved highly controversial when it was first proposed over a decade ago, but here we report experiments with Marek’s disease virus in poultry that show that modern commercial leaky vaccines can have precisely this effect: they allow the onward transmission of strains otherwise too lethal to persist. Thus, the use of leaky vaccines can facilitate the evolution of pathogen strains that put unvaccinated hosts at greater risk of severe disease. The future challenge is to identify whether there are other types of vaccines used in animals and humans that might also generate these evolutionary risks.
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Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
That argument is inconsistent with your argument that Covid kills an insignificant number of hosts. If the death rate from Covid was, say 35%, as was true of SARS and MERS, then yes, Covid would be killing a high enough percentage of hosts as to limit spread, and it would need to mutate into something more mild, or die out completely. Covid, however, kills something less than 1% of it’s hosts, but also, spreads before the onset of symptoms. Even if Covid killed 35% of hosts, so long as it spread before the onset of symptoms, it would have no need to not kill hosts; it could still spread with high efficiency.
SARS/MERS both did not spread until after symptoms, and killed a very high percentage of hosts, so both have essentially died out. Covid has neither problem, and it will be with us forever.
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
It’s not “my” argument.  I’m just the messenger.  Suggest going to the article and reach out to the author.  He has an email address you can use.
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Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Ever since Covid appeared, you have argued that  deaths from Covid are insignificant. Are you saying that you’ve changed your opinion?
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
No but that is not the point of this article, which is that the so-called mRNA/DNA vaccines are imperfect and don’t kill all of the virus in vaccinated people thus allowing them to pass it on to others.  Another ding against these vaccines.
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Sigh.  It’s not even worth arguing this BS any longer.  Like so many others, I have tuned out most of the MSM Covid fearmongering.  So many writing comments here and elsewhere just parrot what you hear on your network or cable news, with little understanding of what is being said.
The reality is that after 16 months of Covid fearmongering, there are supposedly a grand total of 620k Covid deaths and that number is very likely lower.  Two counties in CA (Alameda and Santa Clara) reviewed their Covid death counts recently and reduced them by ~25%. 
Regardless, 620k deaths is 1/5 OF 1% OF THE TOTAL USA POPULATION!  I’d bet that if I told you something would increase your chances of getting a heart attack by 1/5 of 1%, you wouldn’t change anything in your life and would continue with that something w/o a second thought.
I do not fear catching Covid and I am not taking an mRNA vaccine.  No one can make me take it.  I will continue to wear my mask sloppily, below my nose and use the same ratty one for weeks or longer.  If you believe that I am a walking virus factory spewing Covid virus to contaminate everyone, everywhere I go, I say, stay home then.
“I don’t care what you think about me. I don’t think about you at all.”
–Coco Chanel
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FromBrussels
FromBrussels
2 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
That’s the spirit !
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prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
I find it amazing that vaxxers seem to believe that long-term drug safety testing is suddenly completely unnecessary. They must be laughing at all those stupid drug companies who spent years or decades testing their products before deciding if they were safe. What a waste of time!
Historically, every time vaccines have been rushed out it has been a disaster (Cutter incident, for example, or the 1976 Swine flu vaccine that killed more people than the flu did). But it doesn’t even enter vaxxers’ heads that there could be a safety problem with Covid vaccines as they’ve had ZERO long-term testing. To even consider the possibility makes you a “climate denier”, or something.
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prumbly
prumbly
2 years ago
All this data tells you is what happened in the past, not what will happen in the future. It’s like looking at the stock market and saying it’s going to keep going up because that’s what it did the last few months. Kind of dumb.
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Divide and conquer is not the thinking man’s way to understand any problem. Dividing the world into two groups is seen among politicians/lawyers, not scientists, and definitely not among people interested in truth.
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
The Svalbard seed bank exists because (almost all) crops used today come from the same seed stock. The scientific term for all agricultural plants coming from essentially the same genetic line is “monoculture”. The problem with monocultures is that a virus or fungus can come along, killing the monoculture worldwide, meaning no food for anyone. Since humans aren’t included in the Svalvard seed bank, the anti-vaxers are actually doing the planet a favor. If for some reason, it is determined that everyone who got the vaccine expresses some adverse side effect in the future, the anti-vaxers would avoid the ill effect caused by the vaccine, and carry on working to support humanity. In some sense, the anti-vaxers are potentially falling on their swords and remaining unprotected, just in case humanity turns out needing them.
All my arguments to date posted across several of Mish’s articles on this topic present a Libertarian and scientific viewpoint of the world. I hope some stubborn holdouts are paying attention. 🙂
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Petersticks
Petersticks
2 years ago
Can you comment on the effecitveness of Ivermectin in Covid Patients?
Studies:
Protocols
I have no doubt Covid vaccines are effective for most people short term.  For others (VAERS), not so much.  First problem that we have is that we do not know who will have chronic adverse reactions.  
Can you show the data of long term side effects of this MRNa vaccine or any other mRNA vaccine?  That could help people understand long term risks.
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Corvinus
Corvinus
2 years ago
I was reminded by another commentor of the article where Chris Martenson of Peak Prosperity was recommended on this site. It’s striking how divergent they have become. Martenson provides a rational outlook on all the goings on and also looks at the data. In one of his latest videos he literally says “where’s the health emergency [in the data]?”
Matenson comes off as far more even handed and credible without resorting to name calling and trying to “shame” people. I’ll trust the guy with PhD in pathology…that’s “believing the science right”?
I can’t help but wonder if Shedlock isn’t just knee jerking because of the obvious overlap between vaccine skeptics and Trump supporters. Who knows?
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Corvinus
Listen to his Aug 2 interview on Financial Sense. It’s like listening to a Renaissance scholar trying to wade through common practices of the Dark Ages.
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Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
2 years ago
From Pfizer’s FDA report:
The vaccine is 3x as likely to cause a “Serious Adverse Effect” than a case of serious COVID.
The report also states the Delta variant replicates and transmits just as easily among the vaccinated as the unvaccinated.
I don’t live in or travel to major cities. I avoid large crowds in general, so my chances of getting serious COVID would be even less than an SAE from the vaccine.
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Corvinus
Corvinus
2 years ago
Reply to  Six000mileyear
And yet you, me and others here are the “new Flat Earthers” according to the “Libertarian” hosting this site….
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
A lot of the confusion surrounding Covid comes from incomplete disclosure of the mathematics surrounding the discussion point. For instance, Mish was given some statistical data concerning prostate cancer a long time ago that was misleading, that led him to a lot of unnecessary worry. Had he understood the math behind those statistics, discussed in the following link, the medical treatment decisions he made almost certainly would have been different:
The problem with all the hospitalization/death statistics is that they present population statistics in agregate, rather than focusing on subpopulations.
For Covid, there are four main factors tied to hospitalization/death:
(1) age or
(2) weight or
(3) pre-existing conditions or
(4) caution and personal hygiene
Anyone who is young and low BMI and no pre-existing condition and cautious has a Covid hospitalization/death likelihood closer to one in a million.
Said another way, assume you are told that 9.5% of the population will suffer hospitalization/death from a terrible new disease, so everyone has to get vaccinated. But what they don’t tell you is that the people at risk are only the ones with liver disease. That is effectively what they have been doing with Covid aggregate population statistics.
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Mish, the link I posted above uses viruses as an exmple, but the Bayes statistics discussed there is directly related to your prostate cancer decision.
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Morr314
Morr314
2 years ago
If you have taken the injection then you should have nothing to worry about since you are protected from the Corona virus.
They want to inject as many people as they can and keep making record profits and now you need a 2nd shot and even a 3rd shot.
Go to http://usawatchdog.com and watch the video from Paul Craig Roberts and you decide if you want the injection.
The website is run by Greg Hunter who is a good man and tells it like it is.
The pharmacy companies have no liability from any damages to you.
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Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
I don’t think any people question that the vaccine dramatically reduces hospitalizations and deaths from Covid, so more data isn’t going to convince anyone. Their reasons for not being vaccinated seem to always fall into one of  three possibilities:
1. “I’m healthy, so Covid won’t get me anyway.”
2. Covid deaths are low enough that reducing them a further 90% doesn’t matter
3. The vaccine will eventually cause problems for all the people who have been vaccinated
We need to just accept that a significant portion of people aren’t going to get vaccinated. We need to accept that we will continue to have waves of new cases, and continue to have new mutations. We need to accept that in the US we will probably have 100k Covid deaths a year for the foreseeable  future, and probably 4-500k permanent disabilities a year. It’s the new reality, and we just need to move on.
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Great comment, but “herd immunity” reduces that death rate a lot faster than you would imagine.
For example, say there is an island containing deer and no wolves. Once wolves are introduced and cull the deer herd of the infirm, not a lot more deer are going to be picked off so easily. The vaccine effectively converts infirm herd members into “healthy” ones.
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Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
The whole “herd immunity” concept is overstated. It will be years before we know how long immunity will last. My personal guess is about 2-3 years, based on evidence that antibody levels decline about 3% a month. We also don’t know how much of the damage done by Covid is permanent, and whether damage from repeated reinfections is cumulative. I suspect that the answer to both is yes. Thus, my expectation is that, when we look back 20 years from now, we will find that people have had covid on average 5-7 times, and most people over the age of 40 have some permanent damage from it. Unfortunately, given that I believe that it is an artificial, man-made virus, we just don’t know, so we will have to learn the hard way.
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Good points. I was just commenting on the current astronomical death rates dropping to around 50/day or less in the US once immune systems become “accustomed/resiliant” to this family of viruses. Cumulative damage from repeated infection and long Covid is a whole different worry, as you point out. Hopefully, a  vaccine providing sterilizing immunity will be produced in the future, which I will be more likely to take than the current variety, after it has been thoroughly tested, of course.
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Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Sadly true.
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Large swaths of hospital staff are not vaccinated, and yet they are exposed to the virus everyday in their jobs. Are we to assume that those medical professionals must all just be morons concerning medicines? I believe it is over-presumptuous to sterotype rather than look at how/why  *individuals* arrive at decisions considering *their* individual circumstances. Are many or most of them of them just anti-vax? Yes. All of them? Absolutely not.
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JeffD
JeffD
2 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Huge Number of Hospital Workers Still Unvaccinated — June 28, 2021
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tom
tom
2 years ago
The people who do not follow the science seem to be the ones posting the most on here and everywhere on the web. It is as if they are themselves virus that must massively replicate misinformation and lies in order for their weak believe system to survive.
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honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
2 years ago
if Americans were not so fat and pigs eating sugar by the bale then none of these numbers would mean anything…
the pandemic is the fat American
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Dr. Manhattan23
Dr. Manhattan23
2 years ago
It is possible to be fully pro vaccines and against this particular vaccine. Just saying
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dtj
dtj
2 years ago
“Boots on the ground” reports show more like a 50/50 split between vaccinated/unvaccinated showing up at hospitals for treatment.
The narrative is starting to crumble.
Meanwhile the race is on for the FDA to approve the vaccines in the next month.
I did not get the vaccine because I didn’t trust it (and still don’t).
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Ask_Why
Ask_Why
2 years ago
Why does this have to be a Vaxxer versus Anti-Vaxxer conversation? I have some concerns about giving young children Covid vaccines when possible long term risks to their still developing organs is unknown and serious risk from Covid seems extremely low. Does this make me an Anti-Vaxxer?
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alin_s
alin_s
2 years ago
Main point never mentioned because it makes everything else moot:
99.99% survival rate for healthy younger than 65 yrs old.
Why take a vaccine that doesn’t prevent spread?  Why take a vaccine if the risk of death is practically zero?  
The statistics from all over the world support these facts. Unequivocally.
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ToInfinityandBeyond
ToInfinityandBeyond
2 years ago
You know the anti-vaxxers will only scream fake data.
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Karlmarx
Karlmarx
2 years ago
The flat-earthers are the people who have been vaccinated to supposedly protect them from this flu, but then are scared of people who have not vaccinated.  If you received the vaccination and are still scared then why the heck get the darn vaccination in the first place.
Also as someone who has had covid already i see absolutely zero reason to get the vaccine (nor does my doctor).  I already have better antibodies that anyone with the vaccine.  
Frankly this whole thing is having less to do with public health with each passing day and more to do with social control.  Just remember, the Germans in the 1930s had a great public health success with breast cancer.  They screened every woman for breast cancer every year – of course those with it ended up in Dachau
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honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
2 years ago
Reply to  Karlmarx
Yep, and the guy running the show should be tried and executed. He delivered gain of function in funding..
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goldguy
goldguy
2 years ago
From FDA application till approval it takes around 12 years for a drug to be approved.
I will take the jab in 2032
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honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
2 years ago
Reply to  goldguy
95% don’t even make the cut, look up what Scott Gottlieb did after leaving FDA, the Investments he bought into as analyst……
this was so pre-planned even the FDA director stated to buy vaccine makers before any of this happened
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RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
“Every state with a higher vaccination rate the US overall had a lower hospitalization rate (20 states)”
What was the Ivermectin outpatient treatment rate in the states with higher hospitalization rates? The simple fact is that doctors have been told not to treat patients. Quarantine. If you are turning blue, gasping for breath, go to the hospital. Dr. Zelenko treated his patients in an effort to keep them out of the hospital and he was attacked for it. Why are doctors not being allowed to practice medicine?
KTLA “News” did a story last Friday on new Covid anti-viral drugs, including Merck’s. Let me guess. After it is approved, doctors will magically be allowed to treat their patients, with a new expensive Big Pharma on patent drug. Maybe then, the attacks on the unCovaxxed will magically disappear, as well.
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tbergerson
tbergerson
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Exactly.  Treatment protocol (is there even one?) adopted by government is exactly backwards.  Go home.  If you are about to die, go to hospital where we might attempt something.  Rather than, the second you get it, adopt these non-curative but very helpful treatments that are really really cheap and do not accrue billions of dollars to the bottom line of Big Pharma and those with a financial interest in it.  There is something VERY sinister about what is going on.  Medical institutions have utterly failed.  And all of the many doctors in my family and friend set agree.
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TCW
TCW
2 years ago
“But what does age have to do with it. Do old people not matter?”   Wouldn’t it depend on their quality of life?  Anyone who is bedridden and just waiting to die from anything, be it covid, pneumonia, flu, whatever…why count them if they no longer want to be alive?  Even though old people most certainly do matter, there comes a point where death is no longer dreaded, but welcomed.   I know if I lived in a nursing home, I’d be ready to check out.
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RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Alberta: “Since Jan 1, 2021, 0% of people with two doses (937/2,482,401) were
diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the second immunization date”
Reba MacIntire just reported she has a breakthrough case. She also said it isn’t fun. An LAPD officer was in Cedars-Sini hospital with pneumonia, after having been fully vaccinated. Why in May, did the CDC stop accounting for breakthrough infections, unless the person was hospitalized? Seems to me, that produces official misinformation.
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Carl_R
Carl_R
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
I also had a breakthrough case, and it wasn’t fun. Fortunately, it was relatively mild, and mostly has resolved. It will be nice if and when my sense of taste returns to normal, but I’m very glad for the immunization, as it seems certain that I would have been hospitalized without it. I’m not surprised; I knew my immune levels were low, so for me it was a given that the vaccine was essential.
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Jojo
Jojo
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
About 200 staff members at a San Francisco hospital and the U.C.S.F. health system have tested positive.
Between 75 and 80 percent of staff members who tested positive for the coronavirus at Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital were fully vaccinated.
July 31, 2021
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Bay-Brit
Bay-Brit
2 years ago
If you want to be vaccinated or not is your choice not mine. I am but I won’t hate you if you are more reticent. I don’t know if it is safe, it could be fine or it could be like Thalidomide. Time will tell but I am not hating anyone over it.
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Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Posts about anti-vaxers is guaranteed to generate lots of comments. It’s the new Trump.
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RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
 “Anti-Vaxxers the New Flat Earthers”
The New bigotry.
Merck and some others have anti-viral drugs for Covid-19, in the pipeline. Apparently, the federal government has committed to buy some $1.2 billion worth of the Merck drug when approved. So the government wants to force everyone to get Covaxxed, while planning to buy a new and expensive anti-viral drug.
We are being gamed. Ivermectin has anti-viral properties. It is cheaper than the new Merck drug. Currently, it’s already available. Merck had the patent for Ivermectin and while it is unknown at this time, i wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that the new drug is based on Ivermectin, with enough of a tweak to claim it is a new drug.
In breakout infection news, fully vaccinated singer Reba Macintire said she and her boyfriend, both have Covid. She said it isn’t fun, indicating she’s having more than a mild case.
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Peter Bartholomew
Peter Bartholomew
2 years ago
Mish knows very well that statistics can be tortured to say anything that the group using them wants. Don’t forget the old saw, “Lies, damn lies, and statistics. MIsh is afraid for his life. Why? I don’t know, is he just insecure, is he an atheist? I don’t rally care, but the myth of Cpvid and its many variants to come, is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on the general (dumb, low IQ) masses. For seemingly smart people like MIsh,to buy into the fraud, the answer seems to be some sort of mass hysteria or cognitive dissonance. I would suggest Mish follow Dr Robert Malone on twitter. Malone is a vaccinologist who is responsible for the development of mRNA technology. This man is very well informed….link to twitter.com
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mrusa
mrusa
2 years ago
Regardless of your stance on vaccinations any time the government grows, personal liberty shrinks.  When the government can control your personal health decisions and dictate what you do or do not put in your body, it should be alarming.  The Nuremberg Code is a set of research ethics principles for human experimentation created by the USA v Brandt court as one result of the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War.  The US is now violating it.
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Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
2 years ago
Vaccination, in general, does NOT add to the human gene pool. In fact, Charles Darwin pointed this out. Prolonged use of vaccines actually diminishes the gene pool and makes us more susceptible to disease, not only the disease we were vaccinated against, but other as well.
Incidentally, the same could be said of many medical procedures that affect our ability to ‘survive and multiply.’
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QTPie
QTPie
2 years ago
The stats coming out of Florida are pretty clear also… about 90% of hospital admissions for COVID are unvaccinated folks.
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Dr. Manhattan23
Dr. Manhattan23
2 years ago
Reply to  QTPie
CDC stopped counting vaccinated infections in May  link to businessinsider.com
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QTPie
QTPie
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Manhattan23
What does the CDC stats have to do with this? These are stats are not about COVID infections in general but for actual hospital admissions for COVID illness published by the Fla. dept of health.
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Dr. Manhattan23
Dr. Manhattan23
2 years ago
Reply to  QTPie
If there are 2 cohorts, vaccinated and unvaccinated, the official numbers are only counting 1 of the two cohorts to come up with the 90% plus figure. Hospitals follow CDC guidance, and they parrot the official stance. Unless, you are suggesting that Hospitals are going against what the CDC does and counts vaccinated adults with infections and they do so with only those that get admitted to hospitals? If anyone counts only 1 portion of the potential cohort, then you will never see the entire picture
If you don’t believe me, here is Israel  with 2/3rds of the population vaccinated  link to businessinsider.com
If the point is to stop mutations, then the entire globe would have to be vaccinated, and simply having 1 country, even 100% vaccinated will do nothing to stop mutations
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QTPie
QTPie
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Manhattan23
Florida hospitals are tracking the vaccination status of the patients they admit for COVID-related illness and they are reporting that status. Not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding that concept.
And again, with that Israel link you are again referencing something completely different than what I am talking about which is the percentage of people admitted to hospital who are and are not immunized.
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Dr. Manhattan23
Dr. Manhattan23
2 years ago
I believe the CDC stopped counting vaccinated infections in May  link to businessinsider.com
Moderna’s own SEC filing shows that the vaccine is experimental  link to sec.gov  page 70. I can copy and paste, but I doubt anyone would even read the paragraph where it speaks about the FDA considering mRNA vaccines gene therapy
There is more data from scientists all over the world about ivermectin. India’s cases dropped with only a 7% vaccination rate. Why did that happen? I can show that data too, but I doubt anyone reads it
Why is this science not admissible in the debate? Why only what one side says? Some doctors are starting to bring up ADE
If we debate the merits of anything in this matter, then most of the world would still believe the Earth is flat, or that the sun revolves around th earth. It was heresy at one point 
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