Some are cheering Israel’s strike at Hezbollah as innovative and instructive. Others aren’t.
How Israel Built a Modern-Day Trojan Horse
The New York Times reports How Israel Built a Modern-Day Trojan Horse: Exploding Pagers That is a free link to the full article.
The Israeli government did not tamper with the Hezbollah devices that exploded, defense and intelligence officials say. It manufactured them as part of an elaborate ruse.
The pagers began beeping just after 3:30 in the afternoon in Lebanon on Tuesday, alerting Hezbollah operatives to a message from their leadership in a chorus of chimes, melodies, and buzzes.
But it wasn’t the militants’ leaders. The pagers had been sent by Hezbollah’s archenemy, and within seconds the alerts were followed by the sounds of explosions and cries of pain and panic in streets, shops and homes across Lebanon.
Mohammed Awada, 52, and his son were driving by one man whose pager exploded, he said. “My son went crazy and started to scream when he saw the man’s hand flying away from him,” he said.
By the end of the day, at least a dozen people were dead and more than 2,700 were wounded, many of them maimed. And the following day, 20 more people were killed and hundreds wounded when walkie-talkies in Lebanon also began mysteriously exploding. Some of the dead and wounded were Hezbollah members, but others were not; four of the dead were children.
The booby-trapped pagers and walkie-talkies were the latest salvo in the decades-long conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, which is based across the border in Lebanon. The tensions escalated after the war began in the Gaza Strip.
In Lebanon, as Israel picked off senior Hezbollah commandos with targeted assassinations, their leader came to a conclusion: If Israel was going high-tech, Hezbollah would go low. It was clear, a distressed Hezbollah chief, Hassan Nasrallah, said, that Israel was using cellphone networks to pinpoint the locations of his operatives.
Even before Mr. Nasrallah decided to expand pager usage, Israel had put into motion a plan to establish a shell company that would pose as an international pager producer.
B.A.C. did take on ordinary clients, for which it produced a range of ordinary pagers. But the only client that really mattered was Hezbollah, and its pagers were far from ordinary. Produced separately, they contained batteries laced with the explosive PETN, according to the three intelligence officers.
Not only did Mr. Nasrallah ban cellphones from meetings of Hezbollah operatives, he ordered that the details of Hezbollah movements and plans never be communicated over cellphones, said three intelligence officials. Hezbollah officers, he ordered, had to carry pagers at all times, and in the event of war, pagers would be used to tell fighters where to go.
Over the summer, shipments of the pagers to Lebanon increased, with thousands arriving in the country and being distributed among Hezbollah officers and their allies, according to two American intelligence officials.
To Hezbollah, they were a defensive measure, but in Israel, intelligence officers referred to the pagers as “buttons” that could be pushed when the time seemed ripe.
That moment, it appears, came this week.
On Tuesday, the order was given to activate the pagers.
To set off the explosions, according to three intelligence and defense officials, Israel triggered the pagers to beep and sent a message to them in Arabic that appeared as though it had come from Hezbollah’s senior leadership.
Seconds later, Lebanon was in chaos.
For the Lebanese, the second wave of explosions was confirmation of the lesson from the day before: They now live in a world in which the most common of communication devices can be transformed into instruments of death.
One woman, Um Ibrahim, stopped a reporter in the middle of the confusion and begged to use a cellphone to call her children. Her hands shaking, she dialed a number and then screamed a directive:
“Turn off your phones now!”
Why Are Hezbollah’s Pagers Off-Limits?
The Wall Street Journal defends exploding pagers in its editorial Why Are Hezbollah’s Pagers Off-Limits?
After Israel pulled off a covert operation against Hezbollah that ranks with the Trojan horse, the terrorist group’s apologists are crying foul. For too many in positions of influence, Israel simply isn’t allowed to fight back.
Do these people think the Lebanese communicate via pager and walkie-talkie? Israel didn’t tamper with civilian objects like smartphones or any device you might pick up at a Lebanese RadioShack. It sabotaged Hezbollah’s secure military communications.
The U.N.’s “alarm” is highly selective; Hezbollah’s takeover of southern Lebanon and daily attacks on Israel don’t trigger it. International bureaucrats reward the Iranian proxy group’s terrorism by creating new rules for Israel—and maybe next time for America.
Israel-haters set an impossible standard in Gaza, where Hamas fights from schools and hospitals. But even when Israel meets that standard, as now in Lebanon, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says, “This attack clearly and unequivocally violates international humanitarian law.” She cried when funding passed for Israel’s Iron Dome that shoots down Hezbollah’s indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Who Else Still Uses Pagers?
The Wall Street Journal Explains
Pagers have declined in popularity but are still widely used in the healthcare industry. Hospitals and doctors continue to use them to relay urgent messages, from summoning surgeons in an emergency to deploying staff and supplies where they are needed.
The technology has lost ground to cellphones, but pagers persist in healthcare because beepers can reach workers in cellular dead zones and have long-lasting batteries, said Eric Martinuzzi, a senior research analyst for Lake Street Capital Markets.
Roughly 2,200 U.S. hospitals still use the technology, according to Spok, a major seller of the devices, based in Plano, Texas. And as of June, the company had roughly 747,000 pagers in use across the U.S. and Australia, said Vince Kelly, Spok’s chief executive. The devices are manufactured exclusively for the company, he said.
Escalating the war in the Middle East
Eurointelligence has a more sobering take in its article Escalating the war in the Middle East
The chances of an escalating war in the Middle East increased dramatically this week. A series of exploding pagers and walkie-talkies targeted Hezbollah members throughout Lebanon. The scale of the operation and its impact on the civilian population is unprecedented too. The message it sends to Hezbollah and its people is that wherever you are, we will find you. Officially, these two consecutive attacks killed 32 and injured 3150, though the real numbers are likely to be much higher. According to Al-Monitor, Israel planned this pager attack as part of a full blown war, but the action was expedited as two Hezbollah members got suspicious about the pagers.
The question is not whether but how the conflict will escalate. Hezbollah sees no choice but to retaliate. Iran is potentially getting involved too. The series of events can then be used by Israel to pull the US on its side in this all out war. Which country is next? Yemen? And who is going to finance this? Could Iran not count on the Russians to help them out in return for their weapons delivery? There are potential world war III scenarios.
What happened in Lebanon would fall under common western definitions into the category of terrorism – not war. Whatever you call it, it will trigger further radicalisation. If Israel aims to kill every Hezbollah member, what do Hezbollah members have to lose other than their choice of how to die? Hezbollah already threatens a return of suicide bombers. How does Israel count on making the country safe for its population if it radicalizes those living around them?
International diplomacy was short-circuited by this pager attack. The US said they were not informed. And it comes after Europe and the US urged Iran and Hezbollah for restraint in their response in response to Israel killing two senior leaders in Tehran and Lebanon. This week’s attack makes a mockery of European diplomacy. Israel creates facts and the world follows suit.
It is not even clear what Israel’s goal is. Hamas is not finished in Gaza. They are just about to recruit the next generation of fighters. Now the focus shifts to the borders with Lebanon in the north, testing Israel’s deterrence capacity and the loyalty of its allies.
How long can Arab leaders keep on holding out a promise of normalization with Israel, if it keeps on creating havoc in Muslim communities? Israel is playing out its formidable technological superiority. But as the 7 October terrorist attack reminded everyone, even the most advanced technology can fail in crucial moments. It should have been a lesson to reflect on.
Three Key Questions
- If Israel aims to kill every Hezbollah member, what do Hezbollah members have to lose other than their choice of how to die?
- How does Israel count on making the country safe for its population if it radicalizes those living around them?
- How long can Arab leaders keep on holding out a promise of normalization with Israel, if it keeps on creating havoc in Muslim communities?
The War Must Go On
Biden promised for months that a cease fire agreement was close. Biden never really made it to the ballpark. And all peace initiatives are now dead on arrival.
On Thursday, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman said the Kingdom wouldn’t recognize Israel without a Palestinian state.
Take a look at the lead image and the first of the three key questions. How many more Lebanese did this attack radicalize?
No matter what your take on this issue of exploding pagers, the war must go on.
“I have to underline that neither Hezbollah nor Hamas want peace with Israel under any condition.”
Actually …
Palestinians do not want peace with Israel on any condition that Israel can accept.
Also, Israel does not want peace with Palestine on any condition that Palestine could accept.
US meddling hasn’t helped. I do not support what has happened by Hamas. But Israel building settlements everywhere is behind the escalations. And the US always backs Israel no matter how many red lines Israel crosses.
To have peace both sides need to agree but if the condition for peace is the total destruction of your country then you have nothing to lose if you continue the war.
Leaving the obvious solution: genocide–with the most powerful side remaining.
Meanwhile, the US continues to enable genocide, and pretends that it doesn’t.
Sooner than we expect given Biden/Harris open borders, the conflict will come the US.
Do you not doubt that if Hamas and Hezbollah break trough Israel’s defense it would not lead to the geocide of all Jews and Christians who live there? Do you not remember what happened in October or are you one of those who deny it happened?
Do you not understand? Both sides are genocidal. If the US was not backing Israel, the result would be different–still genocide
After WW2, America’s much despised enemies, Japan and Germany, became friends and allies. Why is that?
Perhaps because the US held war crime trials and punished the guilty, and provided assistance to the survivors. Israel, on the other hand, takes the land and impoverishes the people.
bs
The Soviets helped rearm Germany and joined them in starting the war. Yet the Soviets were allowed to be judges and prosecutors at the Nuremberg “trials”.
No, he doesn’t. Hamas apologists ignore what’s right in front of them.
Some day, Tel Aviv will be turned into a glass parking lot by Iran.
And when that day comes, Flingel will say it wasn’t an attempt at genocide of Jews living in Israel.
Flingel will say what he thinks is moral and right based on the facts and underlying factors you might not be aware of–good information is critical for good decisions.
I’m not an apologist. I believe I have an open mind. Both sides are culpable. The hatred goes back to the 1930s, and earlier. In fact, you can trace the origins of conflict back to Babylon. The current issues have festered since 1948, with eruptions that most of us know about only from our unbiased media. That is, a very one-sided view. The problem with one-sided views, is they don’t solve problems–they produce wars.
US media provides opinions for non-thinkers, reducing issues to a version of good and evil in accordance with long-standing beliefs. The same is true in other countries.
So whats the answer? I firmly believe nothing will change with islam and israel. Nothing. Ever.
If the country of Israel were moved to and merged with lets say our California( I think they are actually about the same size land mass wise?) would that solve the so called problem islam has with israel? They would now have the entire middle east once they kick out or kill the remaining christians and any others.
I say islam and not palestinian because i hate that description of people. Didn’t Golda Mier have a palestinian passport in the 1930s?
I will bet you what would happen. islam would be sending suicide bombers to California because islam always needs a fall guy reason to blame anyone for why the people that live under islamic rule live in 3rd world poverty while their rulers and their families live like kings
islam has destroyed Persia Iran. Set Egypt back 100 years post Sadat and the arrival of the Muslim Brotherhood and islam has destroyed the once beautiful country of Lebanon
So tell me, anyone, what is israel to do?
That day can’t come soon enough.
Maybe someday Palestinians will destroy 80% of the buildings in Israel and kill 40,000+ Israelis. Until then, Israel has done that to the Gazans today. Maybe someday Palestinians will demand half of Israel and push settlements into the remaining bits of Israel. That would be immoral, wouldn’t it?
Palestinians already demand all of Israel, so if they ever demand only half of Israel that would be a major step backwards for them….
Agreed again. Israel has harmed the Palestinians so much and for so long that the Palestinians hate them. The only choice is for Israel to continue to do the things it did to create the hatred… ie., keep its boot on their necks. In other words… “the bombings will continue until they no longer hate us.”
bs after bs in repetitions. It’s all about power, not bs. Hezbollah is by far stronger than Hamas. Israel prevents Hezbollah from using its power. What can they do without their top commanders and communication network. Bibi to Nasrallah : stop the bs ==> if u don’t u are next !!
Wiping out a toxic and irredeemable culture is not genocide by any reasonable definition.
The non-immigrant population of that region has common genetics, what is different isn’t “geno-anything” it is religious & cultural.
Re (1): If Israel aims to kill every Hezbollah member, what do Hezbollah members have to lose other than their choice of how to die?
Pointless question, Hezbollah has never had any hope of winning. Once it decided to war with Israel alongside Hamas, it became fundamentally a suicide cult already.
Note that until 1970s Lebanon had been a peaceful coexistence of Christians, Jews and Muslims for a long time until someone – seems to be Iran – stirred the Muslims up.
Re (2): How does Israel count on making the country safe for its population if it radicalizes those living around them?
The radicalization already happened. Hamas and Hezbollah have been around a long time. They were not de-radicalizing under prior policy – as last October showed. What other choice does Israel have?
The nation that could deliver deradicalization is Iran. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah (and likely neither the Houthis) have significant military resources of their own. The fighting material is supplied from outside. Perhaps the question to be asked is how to persuade Iran to give up the current game of harassing Israel by proxy, but …
Re (3): How long can Arab leaders keep on holding out a promise of normalization with Israel, if it keeps on creating havoc in Muslim communities?
The Trojan Pagers showed clearly what we already knew – that Hamas and Hezbollah militants are supported by Shiite Iran. The Arab nations are primarily Sunni Muslims. Iran is neither Arab nor Sunni. Sunni nations are happy to see Iran weakened, especially at Israeli expense and not their own.
And Iran in turn cannot allow Israel to ally with its Sunni enemies. Recall 1980s Iran-Iraq war with hundreds of thousands dead. It was the prospect of Sunnis making peace with Israel that put Hamas in desperate situation and it is what is driving Iran to foment more conflict.
“The radicalization already happened. Hamas and Hezbollah have been around a long time. They were not de-radicalizing under prior policy –”
When the Palestinian Authority recognized Israel in 1993, Palestinians expected peace. Instead they got settlements, checkpoints and oppression. The Palestinians responded by backing Hamas. Hamas is what you get when you keep your boot on their necks.
Let’s admit it. Israel only wants peace if it gets all of Palestine with as few Palestinians as can be controlled in subjugation.
Hezbollah is blind and rudderless. Nasrallah gave Bibi a legal cause to invade Lebanon. The lame duck Coolidge signed Kellogg- Briand to eradicate wars from the world. The 1000Y British Empire signed. It sealed their rule over 80% of the world without interruptions. Stalin could do whatever he could to eliminate real and imaginary threats. He sent his radical competitors to Palestine to build a bridgehead in the heart of the British Empire. Liberalism protected Jews for 2000 years. It was their only defense. Under the banner of freedom Napoleon swept all Europe giving Jews more freedom. Hitler and Sinwar did care. Sinwar gave Bibi a legal cause to dismantle Hamas with a min damage to the 98 division. Hamas got the girls. The elite don’t understand how the world works.
“..but if the condition for peace is the total destruction of your country then you have nothing to lose if you continue the war.”
Only if you have nowhere else to go than your current country…. Which may well have seemed to be true for many Jews immediately post WW2. But by now is not even remotely accurate wrt Israelis. On the contrary: It is true for Palestinians….
In the bigger picture, it is (…still,as it has been since biblical times…..) a shame that there can not be a safe Jewish homeland on historical ground. But the current Zionist experiment failed a long time ago. Probably by day 0. The Nakba being just the latest in an ever growing list of Original Sins which Israelis will never be able to atone for, no matter how far they attempt to stretch ever more self righteous so-called “arguments” to the contrary. Rolling back to ’67 is still bandied about as possible (Xi is on record being in favor, so I suppose it may be tried seriously; at least nominally and temporary; if China decides to get seriously involved), ’47 is increasingly looking like the only realistic option.
In order to keep the Zionist delusion artificially animated for yet another few years: Israelis by now not only have to effectively genocide Palestinians. But then it is on to Lebanon. Syria. Yemen, Iran….. And long before that: Jordan, Saudi, East Africa, Turkey and plenty others will have become so disgusted with the self righteous child killers (Yes, killing 100 kids is still killing 100 kids, even on the off chance you managed to also hit some “bad guy” in the process…), that those will then also be the home to plenty of “barbaric enemies.”
If you listen to the lunatics currently running the asylum down there: NONE of those places can be “allowed” access to anything which even remotely possibly can have so called “dual uses.” Since, duh!, when absolutely everyone living withing 1000 miles of you hates your guts for having bombed their kids to death for decades: Anything which can be used to build and operate any meaningful industry; WILL also be used to stop you from continuing your ever widening regional reign of terror. How surprising…!
That’s not to say the Arabs and Persians are “right.” But that doesn’t really matter. There’s a billion plus of them. Expanding rapidly. They’re not going anywhere. Any comparatively small minority whose presence in their midst is not, at all, compatible with them exercising even basic freedoms, simply isn’t compatible with reality, over any meaningfully long term.
And so, yet again, the Jews will have to endure another exile. Better luck next time, I suppose. One of these days, they may yet hit upon that magic formula. Hint: Try practicing niceness to those around you. Perhaps see how that works for a change. Considering how disproportionately useful members of virtually any society Jewish communities tend to be: You’d think that wouldn’t be that hard an ask. Either that or: Establish your “nation state” in a place truly without people. Not some weasely, self righteous weeeelllll, you,know…. give or take a million or so…… The other billion who are “like them” will never just sit there are be happy with that, now matter how contrived your self serving “arguments” for it may be.
You are counting your chickens before they hatch. Israel is doing just fine but Hamas and Hezbollah not. Before crying victory it would be better to have it first.
Yeah. . .the layers of self delusion are intense.
I mean to start, when someone describes the Nakba as anything other than what the person that coined the term did (i.e. the failure of Pan-Arabism to control the region). . . They are at best uninformed.
“Israel is doing just fine…”
As in: Forever war? Against a rapidly growing world stacked solidly against them? While being supported by noone aside from a fading clique of mid-collapse has-beens? By what standard is that “fine?”
Israel have a great economy. Lots of clever people, many of them working as hard as only those with their backs against the wall ever will. But still: The numbers are just not stacked in their favor.
Even with their outsized military industry, they are still completely dependent on the US, and the wider West, just to maintain some pretense that they will ever be “fine.”
And The West is fading fast. As well as losing all and any goodwill they may once have held elsewhere. In no small part specifically because of their uncritical support for not just Israel per se, but indeed for absolutely any insanity that whomever happens to be in charge in Israel happens to dream up. No matter how grotesquely unpopular with absolutely everyone else in the world.
The UN may not have enough “divisions” to matter directly in practice: But this latest vote of theirs was now so lopsided, that it’s not even hyperbole to state that it is now Israel; along with a small captive clique of rapidly fading has-beens; vs literally the rest of the world. Even the Russians, despite being in the midst of a war such that they could very much benefit from NOT antagonizing Israel; voted to have the Israelis expedite in a year, a withdrawal which even Hamas would admit is darned near impossible to pull off that quickly in their current situation.
A decade from now, The West will be even more irrelevant that they are now. Even less able to feed Israel’s war machine. And as good as the Israelis are; there’s precious little they can offer, which the Chinese can’t do 99% as well. So boycotting the Israels won’t have much in the way of cost for those who feel like doing it. And that’s a lot of people in a lot of countries.
A decade or more ago, actively bypassing Israel also carried the rather large cost of pitching one against the US and The West. Which was problematic back then. But that’s even now, much less so. A decade from now, it will be even less so. Two decades from now, even less. At some point, it may well be a straight up liability, the way things are currently going.
The Israelis no doubt recognize that, and are desperately trying to create “facts on the ground” as quickly as they can. Problem is, the world is aligning against them much quicker than an entire Muslim world full of relatives crippled by Israeli bombs is even remotely likely to forget.
The West will never be “irrelevant”.
They have created every part of what makes life easy and pleasant for everyone – even those who disrespect them, like you….
“They have created every part of what makes life easy and pleasant for everyone”
As had Egyptians. Greeks. Chinese. And Romans. At various points.
And yet, not to disrespect them, but still: The Egyptians are by now rather darned irrelevant.
Ditto the rest of them (It ain’t the same Chinese no more…). As well as The West, unless they SERIOUSLY alter course. I pretty much every.single.area.
I daresay most readers here do not know about ‘Nakba.’
Everyone with even the most rudimentary interest in the conflict over there, do know about it though. Israeli schools may dress it up in more Newspeakian language. Especially in the current #DumbAge. While Hamas-“controlled” schools may exaggerate it to overemphasize the degree of their own “victimhood”. But everyone is aware that it has always been a core sticking point.
In hindsight, it is almost impossible to not recognize it as the massive mistake it was. To the point where the relevant issue now has become: Will it be possible to ever arrive at a lasting “solution,” without unwinding it in its entirety?
bs.
Agreed. Israel took the first half of Palestine and intends to take the remainder through settlements and annexation. If the Palestinians are required to allow the total destruction of their country as a condition to peace, they have nothing to lose by continuing the war.
Attempting to live in peace with people who have declared that their value system requires your destruction sounds a lot like a Neville Chamberlain strategy.
What would you do if your neighbor had openly declared that your destruction was a necessary good? Sit around and let them do what they will?
I wouldn’t. I would aim to eliminate them. My value system is not to destroy others, but to survive. When their morals state that success is my destruction. I only have one choice.
For goodness sake, the world watched as Hamas trained children with a television show (in the 90s) that showed a Jew killing the main character of the show (who was in a Mickey Mouse costume). What did the world expect 20 years later? Again, their value system requires the destruction of Israel.
It is not true the other way around. However, it makes the decisions Israel makes (if it wants to survive) very simple. Aim to destroy, directly or indirectly every value system that refuses to live in peace with them. Otherwise? Israel will cease to exist. The math is very simple on this one.
I simply can not fathom how anyone can chose to support those who wish to destroy over those that wish to promote trade, trust, and technology.
I think the choice that people make here shows the kind of world they want for the future. It’s either a wasteland of war and scarcity (Muslim radicals), or a future aimed at the improvement of the human condition and elimination of scarcity (Israel).
None of the things Israel has done since 10/7 will get them peace. Violence begets violence.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
They followed that and were still attacked. Nothing they had done before 10/7 achieved peace either.
Nonetheless, they were far more prepared than anyone would have expected.
Read the Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley. We treat those who can not hurt us just like other animals do, terribly, with no virtue. Israel is teaching them the pain of not acting virtuously towards their country. It is the first lesson of western civilization. . . And it certainly will lead to periodic peace.
If you think about the factions involved…
Jewish people generally have the world’s highest avg IQ, with an average schooling in Israel of 13.4 years. The expression, Ashkenazi genius’ exists for the same reason–Jewish people are more likely to be doctors, lawyers, successful in business, etc.
The mean Muslim IQ (for all Muslim countries) is 81, with an average schooling of 5.6 years.
That is, a substantial systemic difference. It is not that different compared to white and black IQ/education in the US.
Anger and hatred fester as wealth and power naturally flows to Israel. In a reasonable society, efforts would be made to address that difference, not MAKE IT WORSE.
bs
Jews focus on trade, trust, and technology. The underlying value system requires challenging the underlying value system. Almost all Jews I know are borderline atheists. I mean how could they not be given all the promises their God made and never delivered on?
Wealth and power are a function of the expansion of trade, trust, and technology. Education, discussion, and disagreement are core to those endeavors. People don’t like Jews because they aren’t “nice”. Yet the contribution of Jews to their lifestyles are insane! It’s the disagreement that does it, “yes men” resulted in the holocaust. People discussing and not getting pissed off when others disagree creates amazing new ideas and paths forward.
Nothing “flows naturally”, the value system creates it. Muslims are unable to accept it because they thought they stole the value system, but the changes they made turned it into a fairy tale. Great for making babies and war but not much else.
It’s the mothers, fathers, teachers and leaders pushing a value system that competes with others purely on the basis of breeding that is the problem. End of story. Trying to place blame on success and efforts to improve the human condition will only make the world a terrible place in the future. Suggesting that productive people should hand over the outcome of their labour to people who openly state their intention to breed and then kill them is insanity.
If you need Quotes from PLO leaders on the strategy just look up “The greatest weapon against zionism is the womb of the Palestinian woman”. No intelligent person can want a world where that is the winning strategy. It is war without end.
Putting aside the inaccuracies.. namely Sephari/Mizrahi have no such IQ advantage and that economics plays a role in IQ development (google the Flynn effect), your ascribing “anger and hatred” to anything but the Zionists demand to capture Palestine and expel its ancestral inhabitants, is a deflection from the true and only cause of the conflict.
Why did Netanyahu support Hamas for decades? It seems wrong for Netanyahu to sponsor a known terrorist organization and then kill babies and children by the thousands, all because the organization he sponsored did what they said they’d do.
Ehud Barak: “Netanyahu created and financed Hamas” (youtube.com)
If we look at it over the years, Bibi Netanyahu is one of the main key people who contributed to strengthening Hamas.” — Yuval Diskin, outgoing head of Shin Bet, 2013
“I was OC Central Command in 2009, when Netanyahu returned as prime minister. At the time, we were conducting an all-out campaign against Hamas—Netanyahu stopped it all.” — Major Gen. Gadi Shamni, Israeli Defense Forces
“Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the two-state option, so he made Hamas his closest associate. On the outside Hamas is the enemy, but in the hidden dimension it’s an ally.” — Major Gen. Gershon Hacohen, Israeli Defense Forces
“You have to say this candidly—Netanyahu wants Hamas on its feet.” — Galit Distel-Atbaryan, Likud Party
“The Palestinian Authority is a burden and Hamas is an asset.” — Bezalel Smotrich, Finance Minister of Israel and chairman of the Religious Zionism Party, 2015
“Yes, Netanyahu prefers Hamas in power. And it works for him.” — Erel Segal, Israeli journalist and Netanyahu confidant
“As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.” — Times of Israel
“On Wednesday two weeks ago the head of Mossad… and the head of [IDF] Southern Command visit Qatar on an errand from Netanyahu, and they simply beg the Qataris to keep sending money to Hamas after March 30. The Qataris have said they will stop sending money on March 30. Both Egypt and Qatar are angry with Hamas and planned to cut ties with them. Suddenly Netanyahu appears as the defender of Hamas, as though it was an environmental organization.” — Avigdor Lieberman, former Deputy Prime Minister of Israel, former Israeli Minister of Defense, former Israeli Minister of Finance, and former Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs
“Those who want to thwart the possibility of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas” — Benjamin Netanyahu, 2019
What a nonsense question. When given the choice you chose the lesser evil. The answer is obvious.
In order for peace to bloom, that requires total victory! You must Wipeout your enemy!
Yes. Israel should demand unconditional surrender.
“What would you do if your neighbor had openly declared that your destruction was a necessary good? Sit around and let them do what they will? I wouldn’t. I would aim to eliminate them. ” You are, of course, referring to Israel’s demand for half of Palestine and creeping annexation of the remaining parts, right?
“I simply can not fathom how anyone can chose to support those who wish to destroy.” Yes, yes, Israel never destroyed anything.
It’s a war. The war was started when Hamas, the government in Gaza, broke a cease fire. That their hands, nuts and lives are at risk is of no concern. They wanted a war. Now they have one.
The war began when European Zionists demanded a piece of a region that was 96% Muslim and didn’t ask their consent. They wanted a war. They’ve had one since 1920.
Hmm, an uncomfortable truth, but one which will not get you an AIPAC campaign contribution?
That’s just not true. Arafat was offered 98% of West Bank + Gaza and he turned it down.
Yawn… without Israel’s control over air, water, roads and border? Would Israel hand those rights to the Palestinians? Go read the “offers”. You believe propaganda.
Is that mostly because they are currently the only Mid-East Nuclear Power, that can be considered “A Friendly” and we want to keep them as Our Top ME Partner, as such?
The 400 years US/Indian war was over more than hundred years ago. It was ugly and brutal. GW and Lincoln paid their generals and soldiers with unrealized Indian territories promises. That how the R/R carved the US. Lenin knocked off this system, prommissing privately owned land for free instead of dying for the owners. A lot of morality bs by the elite who live on an occupied Indian land.
Rules were different then. Both civilized and non-civilized societies followed a doctrine of “Right of Conquest”. That changed after WW2, when territorial acquisition through aggressive warfare was made illegal. Israel is currently the most egregious violator.
Negotiate peace deal? Give away being terrorists?
More weapons and high-tech systems. On the other hand those around Israel want to kill every Jew as their religion of Islam dictates so. I feel no sympathy for those terrorists that Israel has to fight.
Good start would be not killing Jews or Israelis and negotiate something meaningful. That area would be a holiday paradise which it ones was but they seem to be hell bent on destroying everything rather than having any kind of longterm solution. I would say that Arab leaders do not want peace. That much is clear.
Moral right or wrong? To use this technology to harm others.
Simple test. Reverse those who were killed or injured with those who committed the act.
This act would not be accepted by neither side. It was “dirty” therefore karma will likely find its way to balance things again. Via more violence? Or non support by other nations….. who knows. It doesn’t look good either way.
terrorism is just a tactic in war. nothing less, nothing more. the battle of 9.11.01 was a terrorizing attack. cripled the psyche of 300million folks for a little while. some of them for a long while.
To answer your question Mish:
Why yes, yes they are.
An expanded/intensified middle east war is a negative for Harris. She will no doubt have to support Israel which will not be popular with many of her putative voters.
Hie can you have peace with this level of raw, unrestrained, hatred on both sides by otherwise rational actors.
See Steve Eisman’s grotesque comment that got him suspended.
“An eye for an eye soon makes the whole world blind.”
blob:https://mishtalk.com/de79d766-5d27-4321-9f2a-f4ab89542908
Just as in Northern Ireland, this is a religious war and as long as God is on your side, you fight on. God will decide. Unless, of course, there is no God. Continuation is further guaranteed by the generations of hatred and fear. And remember, 6 million Jews were slaughtered 80 years ago and modern-day Jews (and, I hope, much of the world) are united in “never again”. I see no viable solution and am amazed at the simplistic offerings in this column.
The point 1 is an assumption that Israel wants to kill every Hezbollah fighter. More likely they wants those fighters and their leadership to cry uncle and negotiate a back down of Hezbollahs attacks on Israel.
Now Hezbollah cannot trust any electronic device and will have to go back to runners with messages which will delay any response, any coordination of actions and will give Israel the ability to have real time command of the battlefield.
Exploding devices are not new, look at how many times terrorist commanders have had their heads blown up by exploding phones, a Mossad speciality.
Israel has given land for peace multiple times, only to be attacked afterwards. Those are the facts, if you care to learn them. Fast forward to the present, and Hezbollah began attacking Israel from the N the day after Hamas raped Isaeli women and murdered Israeli seniors and babies. 80,000 Israelis are displaced near the N border due to missiles from Hezbollah. So Israel is ethically and militarily justified in using military equipment to inflict casualties on a military opponent, despite a small number of concomitant civilian casualties. In warfare there are ALWAYS concomitant civilian casualties. As far as radicalizing more people, how is that possible when Hamas and Hezbollah already teach their children to hate Israelis? The only solution is the destruction of the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is hated my many of its people, and the destruction of its radical terrorist paramilitary organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. When moderates once again control Palestine, Lebanon, and Iran, THEN there can be peace. Only then…
Would you accept these terms in reverse? Try this on… Palestinians are justfied after Israel took and dispalced 750,000 and forced them into refugee camps. Then they appropriated their land. When the Palis fought back, Israel took more land and displaced more. When Palis fight back, there will be Israeli civilian casualties… because there are ALWAYS concomittant civilian casualties.
Iran has nothing to do with Israel’s moral and legal crimes that started the conflict.
Attention Jeff Green:
New car sales in the European Union fell 18.3% in August to their lowest in three years, dragged down by double-digit losses in major markets Germany, France and Italy and sliding electric vehicle (EV) sales, auto industry body data showed on Thursday.
The data showed the fourth consecutive monthly drop in EV sales, prompting the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA) to demand “urgent action” to prevent further decline.
Sales of fully electric cars slumped 43.9% in August, as the bloc’s biggest EV markets Germany and France recorded drops of 68.8% and 33.1% respectively, ACEA said.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eu-car-sales-3-year-low-august-ev-sales-down-439-acea-says-2024-09-19/
Attention Fast Eddy. You still haven’t answered my question. Will the Matterhorn pipeline cause an increase in Permian production over the next 6 months? Yes or no. And why.
Your question is not relevent
The Precarious State of the Shale Oil Industry:
Try to get your head around the idea that by 2027, US tight oil production might be 12 MM BOPD, not the 9 MM it is now, which is what cheerleaders say it will be, and that means we’ll actually have to find and extract 12 MM BOPD… before we can ever grow the new 3 MM.
Man, that is a slew of new wells! Thats gonna take like…four times the HZ wells we’ve already drilled in the US.
Where?
Read More
Yes… where… that is the key question
Pipelines do not refill depleted oil fields.
Next question
If Russia did the same thing to Ukraine’s Military communications systems and children were killed, the WEST COLLECTIVE would call it a WAR CRIME and demand International Arrest Warrants be issued!!!
Putin already has an ICC/ICJ warrant against hm. BFD. [Shrug]
Excellent interview/discussion here:
Terror or war?
Well, if “terrorism” means to put the Enemy in terror, then it’s the 4th (by my count) best result of any tactic in war. (1:Disable 2:Kill 3:Demoralize 4:Terrorize).
Or, in current approved usage, “terrorism” can describe any tactic that the Enemy has an advantage in.
First meaning: Have exploding pagers scared Hezbollah’s fighters? Scared to the point of losing it and being a net negative to their cause in the war? I don’t know. You’d have to check with your neighborhood Hez-dude. Is he curled up in a corner, shaking with fear?
Second meaning: Exploding pagers are terrorism if the Enemy is Israel. Not if not.
This also expands/creates a dangerous precedent. It also won’t be long before are not allowed on an airplane with electronics of any kind.
A wide scale war in the Middle East is in nobody’s best interest
It’s only a matter of time before none of us are able to take our iPhones, laptops, pagers, and other electronic devices onto flights, even in checked bags. When it happens, it’ll totally be because of this brand of Zionist terrorism which has already killed twice as many children as the Boston Marathon bombers.
Twenty Radwan commander were killed this morning. The First missile blew up the roof. The second one did an annal penertation. the last two penetrated the bunker two floors underground. It destroyed Hezbollah top commanders and it was a massage to Nasrallah : if u cont to escalate u are next. In the ME people respect power, not bs. That’s how things work out there. No bs !!
Would you accept the same justification of Palestinian retaliations against Israel? Or do Israelis get a special hall pass?
American Middle East policy is Israel first, Israel second, Israel third. Everything is last. Even America herself is last.
After this war ,from ME point of view, America and the whole West is not reliable. They buy hundred of millions of military hardware from West including fighter jets, etc. and they can be detonated from far away.
I predict ME will change their policy forever to the West.
Will ME and the world buy Western military hardware like before?
Will they trust West like before?
China and Russia are the winners.
Bibi to Macron : It’s a massage to Nasrallah : if u cont u are next !
Austin is sending USS Truman to the Mediterranean.
hey we can make palestinian state in Yemen
How about in your house?
“…………according to two American intelligence officials.”
American Officials acted as if they did not know what was going on!
There’s some sort of mistaken belief circulating that because Israel accepts some aid from the US, it has become a vassal state of the US and must ask for the political arm’s approval before taking any actions.
Ukraine may have to do this but Israel just says lick my tuchus to Biden/Belken/Austin, etc.
And if your retort is for the US to cut off aid to Israel, well, that is up to Congress, not the Executive arm.
And as I have pointed out and posted in previous discussions, th US gains much benefit from working with Israel in the Middle East that far exceed the relative small amount of money funneled in Israelis direction.
So basically, checkmate. You’ve got nowhere to turn.
Hezbollah, Hamas and apparently a decent percent of Gazans want more of this. They are in the camp believing the nonsense in the Koran.
We better wake up.
The best deal the Arabs living in the British Mandate of Palestine in 1947 would have been to accept the UN Partition Plan of November 1947. But they did not. The Arabs lost Israel’s War of Independence and under the cease fire of 1949 (there was no peace treaty), Israel ended up with more territory than what it would have received under the UN Partition Plan. The West Bank was put under Jordanian control and the Gaza Strip was placed under Egyptian control.
There will never be peace as long as there is hate. Not just in the middle east, but everywhere in the world; including here in the US.
The best that any of us can do to promote peace is to try to live a peaceful life ourselves through our words and actions:
Treat all people with kindness, regardless of race, gender orientation, sexual orientation, religion, etc.
Create a peaceful affirmation/mantra.
Avoid political and religious discourse if you cannot control your emotions.
Don’t engage in violence of any kind.
Don’t purchase weapons.
Based on the small sample of folks who comment here; it’s hopeless. Way too much hate.
Don’t purchase weapons.
Well dang, I’m guilty of that one.
None of us is perfect. And we never will be. But we can all try to be better.
There was a great exchange in the movie civil war.
-“Who is giving you orders?”
– “No one’s giving us orders man. Someone’s trying to kill us. We are trying to kill them”
In the animal world, having no defense means you are food for something else. How could you possibly believe that it isn’t true for humans as well?
Simple metric here. You are dead or alive. When you are dead, all the cool ideas you have about an amazing future go with you. If you have any intention of making things better, you better not be dead. I don’t want to be dead and I want to contribute to humanity, its been my lifes work. I’ve also put my time in on the range in preparation for human stupidity to come along and FAFO.
The only thing not being armed does is ensure that the next psychopathic regime that wants to consolidate power has no opposition. Then their new educational system will ensure that thoughts like yours and mine don’t exist anymore.
Yes. Of course. Silly me. Kill or be killed. Kill them all before they kill us. The last person left on earth will be the winner.
Strange. If that was true, you would think that after all this time, mankind would be down to one person instead of 8 billion.
Of course, we could probably get rid of most of the 8 billion by firing off all the nuclear weapons.
Will all that range time help you when the nukes come raining down?
Wow, that was a reading comprehension fail if I’ve ever seen one.
Really? Then please explain this to me:
“ – “No one’s giving us orders man. Someone’s trying to kill us. We are trying to kill them”
Thanks in advance.
Yeah. That’s what I figured. You couldn’t do it.
Re “ There will never be peace as long as there is hate.”
You are wrong in both directions. History provides abundant examples of both peace-with-hate and also war-without-hate.
Then please list all these examples. Thanks.
As expected. Your silence speaks volumes.
Was the slaughter of 800 civilians war or terrorism? Yes, of course it was terrorism. Only a Hamas apologist would think otherwise.
If Israel aims to kill every Hezbollah member, what do Hezbollah members have to lose other than their choice of how to die?
They simply wait for their turn to die. Between now & then, I’m sure they’ll be working to kill more Israelis. It’s a war, no?
How does Israel count on making the country safe for its population if it radicalizes those living around them?
It can’t. All they can do is make it harder for Hamas to kill Israelis. This is why Israel maintaining control over the Philadelphi corridor in Gaza is so important to them
How long can Arab leaders keep on holding out a promise of normalization with Israel, if it keeps on creating havoc in Muslim communities?
Hamas doesn’t want normalization, at least not yet. What part of from The Ricer to the Sea doesn’t make sense?
When Palestinians say “from the river to the sea” it’s objectionable, but when Israelis say it, it’s ok?
Yes.
I don’t hear Israelis saying that, but for now, they sure are kicking the living hell out of Hamas. Be that as it may, I don’t see the West Bank or the Golan Heights ever leaving control of Israel.
From the river to the sea is literally the first item in the ruling Likud party’s charter, bucky. With that goal, it’s no wonder the Palis fight back, as they have a moral and legal right to do. Israel picked this fight.
Why is nobody addressing the two most important issues? #1 mindset #2 Then What? Can we be honest in this discussion? The mindset of the people confined to Gaza and the West Bank is to kill every man, woman and child living in Israel from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. I understand their frustration. They are geographically trapped. Egypt and Jordan will not let them migrate into a fellow Arab country. That is the Mindset problem. The “Then What” issue is a result of the first issue. If you remove all Israeli presence from the West Bank and Gaza and you give them Independent Country status, Then What. Will the new country of Palestine build beautiful luxury hotels on the shores of the Mediterranean? Will Palestine build top notch hospitals or huge desalinization plants or large modern wastewater facilities? Will the West Bank build Hydroponic Farms? The answer is absolutely not. They will import several hundred THOUSAND Lazer guided, long range, powerful rockets. They will recruit and arm thousands of young terrorists. THEN WHAT! How do we know that what I have just said is true? Hezbollah, it is estimated, has One Hundred Fifty THOUSAND rockets. What possible peaceful and economic use could these items be used for?
The ONLY answer is that Israel must be given all of Israel and the Arabs MUST be allowed to migrate into the Sinai and Jordan so they can build productive lives and change their mindset.
Lovely – Who get to determine what “All of Israel” means?
Israel?
What about what “All of Palestine” means?
Sounds like we have forgotten that the spoils goes to the victor. Does anyone believe that Ukraine is going to be in a position to dictate anything to Russia when that war is finally called? Same goes for Israel and the war that Hamas started. Hamas has no future and neither does Hezbollah. The Gazans have an amazing ability to screw up a free lunch, which is what they got in 2005.
Israel? Yes, Mish, Israel at least has a say so in the matter.
Israel is the land from the sea to the river. Simple.
Israel is a cancer on the body of humanity. Most of the evil in the last century emanates from there.
Wait. I thought that was Hitler, Mao & Stalin?
You are correct and this is but one of the major reasons why a 2-State solution is not a solution at all.
Add in that there isn’t any agreed upon single government entity between Gaza and the West Bank. That even if there were, geographically separate lands do not make for a stable state (see Armenia). That Gaza and the West Bank have little to no natural resources to build an economy on, no place to dump garbage, no water, no territory to expand into as their population grows, etc. etc.
The only reason politicians keep calling for a 2-State solution is that they don’t have any idea what to do with the ~5 million Palestinians residing in Gaza and the West Bank. No [sane] country wants them. Short of sending them to the Soylent Green tanks to feed animals, what can be done with these UN welfare babies who have only managed to survive with the 75 year assistance of the UNRWA agency that distributes hundreds of trucks of food and other aid to them every day.
This is the unfortunate reality. Actions have consequences. When Israel , in 1948, foolishly allowed Arabs who refused to accept the offer of Israeli citizenship to remain as refugees and the UN created an agency to service Palestinian needs ALONE, the seeds of future problems and discord were sown.
I apologize in advance for the long post. You cannot not know history.
There are two sides to this conflict. Neither side has anything to be proud of,
And yes, ‘terrorist’ may be a biased perspective.
The “Black Sabbath” attacks on November 14th, 1937, in which Jewish terrorist massacred Palestinians around Jerusalem.April 12, 1938, terrorist train bombing that killed several Arabs and British police.May 24, 1938, massacre of random Palestinian civilians in HaifaJune, 1938, Jewish terrorists threw a bomb into a crowded Arab market in Jerusalem.July 5, 1938, Jewish terrorist shooting dead random Palestinians in Tel Aviv.July 5, 1938, twin terror attacks in Jerusalem, including planting a bomb on a bus.July 6, 1938, terrorist bombing of a Palestinian market in Haifa, killing 18 Palestinians and wounding 60.July 8, 1938, terrorist bombing in Jerusalem.July 16, 1938, Jewish terrorist set off a bomb in a Palestinian market in Jerusalem.July 25, 1938, Jewish terrorists set off a bomb in a marketplace in Haifa, killing 43 Palestinians.August 26, 1938, terrorists set off a bomb in Jaffa , killing 24 Palestinians.February 27, 1939, coordinated terrorist attacks by Irgun across Palestine kill 33 Palestinians, including 24 in a marketplace bombing in Haifa.May 29, 1939, Jewish terrorists set off a bomb in a Jerusalem cinema killing 5 Palestinians.May 29, 1939, Jewish terrorists storm the village of Bivar ‘Adas and kill 5 Palestinians and wound several more.June 2, 1939, another Jewish terrorist bombing kills 5 Palestinians at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem.June 16, 1939, coordinated terror attacks across Jerusalem kill 6 Palestinians.June 19, 1939, Jewish terrorists kill 20 Palestinians by setting off explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa.June 29, 1939, Jewish terrorists kill 13 Palestinians in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period.July 20, 1939, Jewish terrorists kill 6 Palestinians in several terror attacks in Tel Aviv.July 20, 1939, Jewish terrorists kill several Palestinians in RehovotSeptember 27, 1944, approximately 150 Jewish terrorists attack four British police stations in Palestine.November 1, 1945, Jewish terrorist bombing targets train station, killing several staff, police and soldiers.December 27, 1945, two days after Christmas, Jewish terrorists kill 3 British policemen and 4 African Basutosoldiers during the bombing of British CID headquarters in Jerusalem. Another British soldier killed during an attack on a British army camp in north Tel Aviv.July 22, 1946, King David Hotel Bombinh by Jewish terrorists kills 91, including 41 Palestinians 28 Britons.January 12, 1947, Jewish terrorists kill 4 in bombing of British headquarters.March 1, 1947, Jewish terrorists set off bomb and then raid the location of British officers, 17 British officers killed.September 26, 1947, 4 British policemen killed by Jewish terrorists while they attempted to raid and rob a bank in Palestine.September 29, 1947, 13 killed and 53 wounded in attack by Jewish terrorists on British police station.December 12, 1947, Jewish terrorists kill 33 Palestinians and wound 15 more in pre-Christmas terror attacks. One attack kills 20 Palestinians and 5 more wounded when Jewish terrorists blew up a barrel bomb at the Damascus GateDecember 13, 1947, Jewish terrorists kill 16 and wound 67 Arabs more in pre-Christmas terror bombings in Jerusalem and Jaffa. Jewish terrorists also burns down 100 Arab homes in Jaffa.December 16, 1947, Jewish terrorists kill 10 people by bombing a cinema in Jaffa.December 18, 1947, Jewish terrorists kill 10 Palestinians in Al-Khisas massacreDecember 29, 1947, Jewish terrorists kill 13 Palestinians in Jerusalem bombing.December 29, 1947, Jewish terrorists throw a bomb into the Damascus Gate Café in Jerusalem, killing up to 15 people including 11 Palestinians and 2 Britons.December 30, 1947, Jewish terrorists kill 6 people in terror bombing. Palestinians beat 39 Jews to death in reprisals.January 1, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 70 Palestinians in the Balad al-Shaykh massacreJanuary 4, 1948, Jewish terrorists bomb the Arab National Committee headquarters, killing 14 and wounding 100 more.January 5, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 14 Palestinians in the Samaritan Hotel bombing. 4 more Palestinians were killed when they tried to enter the Jewish quarter in Safed after the attacks.January 7, 1948, Jewish terrorists set off a bomb at the Jaffa Gate, killing 15–20 Palestinians.January 27, 1948, British forces kill 4 Palestinians in GazaFebruary 7, 1948,Jewish terrorists kill 3 Palestinians in Haifa. 3 Jews killed in reprisals.February 10, 1948, Jewish terrorists killed 7 Palestinians for selling cattle in Tel Aviv.February 14, 1948, Jewish terrorists raid the village of Sa’Sa’and massacre 11 Palestinians.February 15, 1948, Jewish terrorists kills 5 Palestinians. 3 Jews killed in reprisals.February 18, 1948, Jewish terrorists bomb a vegetable market in Ramla, killing 12 Palestinians and wounding 43 more.February 21, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 4 Palestinians in attacks in Haifa.February 22, 1948, Palestinians kill 55 in reprisal attack on Ben Yehuda StreetMarch 1, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 48 Britons in twin terror attacks. 28 Britons killed by bombing a train in Rehovot, 20 Britons killed and 30 more wounded in Bevingrad Officers Club bombing.March 11, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 4 Palestinians. 13 Jews killed in reprisal attack on the Jewish AgencyMarch 14, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 4 Palestinians. 1 Jew killed in reprisal attack.March 18, 1948, Palestinians kill 5 Britons and 4 Jews traveling in convoy near AcreMarch 22, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 20 Palestinians near the settlement of Nitzamin. 4 Jewish terrorists also died in the attack.March 24, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 36 Palestinians in Tulkarm.March 28, 1948, 18 Palestinians killed by Jewish terrorist convoys near Gaza, Rehovot and Safed.March 31, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 40 Palestinians and wound 60 more in Cauro-Haifa train terrorist bombingsApril 1, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 11 Palestinian laborers in LodApril 9, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill up to 254 Palestinians in the Deir Yassin massacreMay 3, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill up to 70 Palestinians in the Ein al-Zeitun massacre.May 14, 1948, Jewish terrorists kill 52 Palestinians in Abu Shusha. On the same day, Israel was declared as a state.
What I saw, was not what I got!
What you should be apologizing for is how ONE SIDED your post / beliefs are.
he’s just another nut job.
bs, I don’t read comments longer than 2 inches. Your ego is longer than your comment.
You failed English in school, yes? Especially the lesson about paragraph breaks and how they benefit both the writer and the reader.
Hezbollah started this war with Israel on Oct 8 after Hamas raided Israel on Oct 7. Sinwar failed to conquer Jerusalem. For almost a year Israel and Hezbollah exchange painful blows. They hit each other harder and harder. Hezbollah, so far, didn’t target Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa. Israel didn’t raid Lebanon. Nasrallah is kept alive bc Bibi can work with him. Hamas lost the war more than 7/8 months ago. The IDF elite divisions moved north threatening Nasrallah. Meanwhile the IDF cont to cleanse terrorist cells in the west bank. Those are the facts : the Iranian cauldron ==> dismantled, possible in preparation the a new era, to better days.
The Zionists started this war in 1946 by blowing up the King David hotel.
They don’t care who they kill, so they kill indiscriminately.
They kill often and regularly – like “mowing the grass.”
I really hate to chime in on these discussions because they don’t have any real near term solution but the long term solution will ferret itself out through demographics and economics.
The key issue for Israel, in my opinion, is the growing list of “enemies” it is fighting….
Israel vs Hamas
Israel vs Hezbollah
Israel vs Houthis
Israel vs Iran
Israel vs Nazis in Europe
Israel vs Nazis in US (see Republican party)
Israel vs Israel
Saudi has said no deal with Israel unless a Palestine state whether that makes Israel vs Saudi is pending…and there are more if you’ve been paying attention to the global reaction.
None of this is sustainable on any scale, even with the US backing Israel because the US is rapidly changing demographically (see college protests, Michigan population, etc).
At some point, the consensus will grow that it will be economically more advantageous to do trade with 1 billion people of a particular religion than 10 million of another.
Now that I’ve said my peace, lets get back to profits.
Are you actually calling republican party members nazis?
They are calling themselves that….
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/mark-robinson-north-carolina-porn-forum-comments
Mark Robinson, who was endorsed in March by Donald Trump in the race for governor of North Carolina, said he supported slavery, called himself a “black NAZI,” and graphically described “peeping” on women in public gym showers on a porn forum called “Nude Africa,”
You are really part of the problem. Have a good day.
Profits are never the problem, they are always the solution. You have a nice day too.
The Nazi in Europe and the US support Israel. They hate Muslim immigrants and blacks. The more they hate the more Reparations they get. In NYC they gang together glued by hate. I played soccer with Muslims and blacks. They are smart, talented and friendly. When the hate bubble deflate the Nazis will hate Israel and Jews again.
Nazis in US (see Republican party)
Nice! That’s the kind of talk that convinces whackos to team up with their local CIA spook to kill people running for office.
You forgot:
Israel vs the Goyim
are bombs falling from the sky onto residential areas terrorism or war?
are bombs destroying civilian infrastructure terrorism or war?
are fire bombs that will cause an entire city to go up in flames terrorism or war?
All war today is terrorism. Hundreds of years ago when armies would line up and fight each other, that was war. Once those armies started raping and pillaging and burning houses and crops and salting the land so crops wouldn’t grow in the future, war became terrorism.
“are bombs falling from the sky onto residential areas terrorism or war?
are bombs destroying civilian infrastructure terrorism or war?
are fire bombs that will cause an entire city to go up in flames terrorism or war?”
Yes.
“All war today is terrorism.”
I suppose that’s a matter of opinion. But even if it is: Targeting as precise as what Israel managed with these pager attacks, are about the LEAST terroristic of all modern forms of warfare.
If the Israelis had been targeting Hamas operatives in Gaza with even 1/10th of that accuracy; it would have been a lot harder for Anti Israel groups to argue they are just indiscriminately bombing civilians, while figuring that if only they bomb hard enough long enough, they’ll eventually hit some Hamas guy here and there, that they can then try presenting as some form of “excuse” for all the civilian mayhem.
Just to be clear, raping and pillaging is not a modern phenomenon. Its been going on for time immemorial.
It was good common sense to cleanse your enemy.
War centuries ago certainly looks to be more fun! You had those big war drums and trumpets that could be heard a long way away, you had war elephants, you got to rape and plunder those who you conquered w/o a whiny, woke UN getting in the way and more.
In freer, more civilized eras: Weapons of war were largely sharpened farm and hunter/gatherer implements. Such that there effectively were no masses of defenseless “civilians” stripped of their God given right to own and carry whatever they could get their hands on.
It’s only with the descent of “The People” into sufficient gullibility to accept forking over God given, universal rights to slimy weasels claiming some form of exclusive “right” to command standing armies, professionalized police forces and the like, that concepts such as “laws of war”, “terrorism” etc., become meaningful topics at all. Once the back of “everyone’s” pickup truck, is stocked with whatever is the latest kit Putin has access to, all those things become rather moot. And the world will move on to some form of sustainable equilibrium, whatever that may be.
“the war must go on.”
That’s all you need to know right there.
The problem with the pager attack is the same as the problem with chemical or biological weapons, you really don’t know who is going get killed. You can’t aim them.
They are also similar to cluster bombs in that regard.
One pager in one aircraft; the collateral damage is horrendous. The pager attack was not the smartest move. It reeks of CIA, and a feeble-minded president.
“The problem with the pager attack is the same as the problem with chemical or biological weapons, you really don’t know who is going get killed. You can’t aim them.”
Virtually no civilians uses this kind of pagers. And by all accounts, the Israelis only fitted explosives to orders they had very good intelligence indicating was going to Hezbollah.
And not just Hezbollah the general, to a large extent civilian, organization. But specifically to Hezbollah militants actively engaged in fighting Israel. Since they were the ones whom Israeli cell network monitoring presented a major problem for.
So even without being able to individually “aim” them, you pretty much know who, in aggregate, are going to be carrying them.
It’s almost like if some Iraqis had managed to insert explosives in a large batch of Rifles sold to the US Marine Corps.
The Israelis are engaged in a lot of extremely questionable targeting. But this one was bloody brilliant. It hit with serious precision. AND on a huge scale. It’s extremely rare to witness an attack to such an extent simultaneously both large, widespread AND precise. It’s the holy grail of warfare.
Especially warfare against a wide spread, diffuse non-nation-state actor like Hezbollah.
Any Civilian Lebanese up in arms about it; should stop to consider how many civilian Lebanese would have died, for Israel to hit that many Hezbollah fighters by way of carpet bombing, Gaza style…..
Looking back at all the success Israel has had in taking out terrorist management, they must have a lot of sources in these orgs feeding info to Israel. I wonder how much they get paid for good info?
They must have plenty of moles almost anywhere. Even deep inside the Iranian security services. Probably enough so that America is very dependent on them, to keep its troops in the region somewhat safe.
Chances are there is a lot of infighting and disagreements in all these groups to tap into. Western reporting tend to present them as some fully coherent beehive, but they probably have more in common with Mexican narco gangs than with organizations as streamlined as Mossad.
Israel took out another batch of senior commandeers who apparently had to meet face to face as the Pager communications no longer reliable
What is possible Hezbollah answer. Send 20 to 30,000 rockets at one time into Israel and overwhelm Iron Dome.
Israel has lighted up a Fuse on an explosive cache.
Mideast just one big death cult.
Israel. #1 international terror regime.
Its control over US makes us #2.
Truth.
Next week Bibi will be in the UN telling the world that Sinwar knocked off Hezbollah op plans to raid N. Israel murder, rape and take hostages before dissecting northern Israel.
Those who planned the attack were killed today in Beirut. Their big boss was killed a few months ago, but the Sinwar bros are still alive. Both Israel, Jaza and Lebanon are going nowhere until Jan 20 2025 inauguration day 12PM. They had better settle their differences bc Egypt is Israel’s number #1 enemy, not Iran. The next president will offer cash to Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen and promise to rebuild Jasa along with Qatar, MBS, Kuwait…if they choose peace.
Egypt is not Israel’s No 1 enemy. There is a cold peace with mutual interests. Egypt does not want the cancer that is Gaza and is happy to see Hamas liquidated as that removes a source of terrorism that sustained the terror attacks that plagued northern Sinai up until Oct 7.
So what’s to prevent something similar from happening to electronic devices in America?
In God We Trust
Targeting would be difficult, unlike pagers and vhf radios.
What’s to prevent terrorists from crossing the southern border and blowing up kindergartens? The US has a soft underbelly, and porous skin.
…Dudes on Youtube disassembling products looking for stuff…
I do wonder if trained dogs; at airports etc; would have been able to detect explosives inside the batteries….
No doubt a race is now on for reliable detectors of small amounts of explosives, considering how effective they proved to be. Suddenly a lot more money to be made in that space….
Yes. Both.
From the Beeper to the Sea! lol
The one point that is left out of the discussion is that Iran and its proxies have surrounded Israel, and have called for the annihilation of the state and also of America, and as such, these are defensive actions by Israel fighting for its survival.
Israel is and always has been the aggressor. If they are annihilated it will be well deserved.
Israel didn’t start the wars in 1948 or 1973. They however did win them. It’s only a 20 minute drive from my apartment east of Cairo to the point in the Eastern Desert that marks the furthest advance of the Israeli counterattack in 1973.
Just got off the phone with Warren Zevon.
He said “Send Lawyers, Guns and Money! And while you’re at it… Enjoy every sandwich!”
The illegitimate ICC issued arrest warrants against Bibi, Gallant and top IDF commanders. The UN ordered Israel to dismantle itself. The spineless European leaders obeyed.
It’s a genius tactic that caused minimal collateral damage compared to impact it had. As noted, it was only devices specific to Hezbollah, which has subjected Israel to daily attacks. So while it mimics a terror attack it was in fact a targetted attack – and who are the terrorists to cry foul anyway? They deliberately target civilians. As far as I’m concerned Israel is justified attacking the supporting population as well. The Nazis weren’t beaten without hitting the populace that supported them. These Nazi allies won’t be either.
The problem is a lack of consequential thinking–there was collateral damage and hatred of Israel expands. The conflict grows, with terrorist attacks in the US. The US bombs wherever. The Middle East erupts leading to WW3
All is fair in love and war is an old quote.
There are too many rules and red lines in modern day war. If you want bloodless battles and rules in war, why not just agree to play a chess tournament where the winner takes all?
The head of Hezbollah, in his recent speech, was whining that Israelis actions “…“crossed all red lines”, he said. “The enemy went beyond all controls, laws and morals,” he said, adding the attacks “could be considered war crimes or a declaration of war.””
TOO FUNNY from a leader of a TERRORIST group! You’re not playing fair!! [rotflol]
could be considered… is a soft response.
Yeah, it means retaliation is in the parking lot. . . Like Iran. Iran has to have long delays between sending airstrikes to Israel. Too much of its equipment is hitting civilian infrastructure in the Ukraine.
/s
Israel (the chosen ones) have a god-given right to infiltrate every electronic device on the planet to booby trap it. If Israel deems a person a threat, Israel has the right to explode the device.
Israel can do no wrong. Israel is not capable of terrorism. It is justified in everything it does.
The U.S. needs to support Israel 100%, including militarily and economically. The U.S. is Israel’s b*tch.
/s
Can I assume you are one who thinks the heros here are the folks who came in and slaughted 1300 people on 10/7 and kidnapped 300 more … then hid in schools and hospitals using women and children as human shields? They’re the heros here in your eyes?
I thought it was 1,200. New talking point? Israel killed half of them – following the Hannibal Directive. All those burned out cars from the music festival were shot from helicopters – which only Israel had.
And don’t forget! The holocaust didn’t happen and the world is flat!
Right, so the Hamas guys who flew in on paragliders were carrying missiles to shoot at fleeing concertgoers?
Israel probably killed a lot more than half of them.
No, the real heroes are the Israelis, who have killed 40,000 Gazans and leveled half of Gaza. That’s heroic.
Agreed! More of this is needed!!
The Lancet estimated 186,000 four months ago. Ralph Nader claims 300,000. I don’t know the number, but it’s been “40,000” all year.
So what do suppose motivated Hamas to attack?
I don’t understand why it is that people seem to only be able to look at events in isolation.
It’s the comic book good vs. evil argument.
The answer is that Israel refused to turn over the country to the Palestinians, which made them very unhappy.
Now don’t forget that back in 1948 when Israel was created, all the Arabs (nee “Palestinians” now) were offered full citizenship in the new country of Israel and the full ability,like everyone else, to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and build a country. ONLY 20% accepted.
The remainder declined the opportunity, declared themselves “refugees” and vowed to stay “refugees” until the reclaimed the land they had previously lived on that was taken from them by the British. This is what happens in war. The victors divvy up the spoils. Losers can complain but that is the extent of their options..
China can do it to the US.
FYI, ‘chosen ones’ should be ‘Chosen Ones,’ since God chose them.
“Israel can do no wrong. Israel is not capable of terrorism. It is justified in everything it does.”
Unless you are a complete pacifist: This specific attack was probably the most precisely and narrowly targeted; specifically at enemy combatants hence justified and NON “Terrorist”; attack against a diffuse, distributed non-state actor ever mounted by anyone.
Israel is involved in a lot of what is just terror by any definition, but this was as far from that as one can realistically get. No wonder the US (and no doubt Russia and all others as well) recognize that when it comes to real world military intelligence operations, pretty much everyone else is Israel’s b*tch.
In my opinion it was a brilliant move on Israel’s part and shows what happens if you rely too much on technology, or rather specific technology that your enemy can exploit.
I don’t see anything wrong with what happened since it sowed chaos among Hezbollah, target civilian things (there is of course collateral damage but there is always collateral damage regardless of weapon used) and will clearly disrupt them from doing anything concerted for quite some time because communications will be sporadic at best.
Trust me, every other country took notice and already has people at work attempting to do the same thing if they already didn’t have people doing this.
It is not the first time that terrorists have been eliminated by the explosion of an electric device but it is the first time that almost the whole top and mid-level leadership has been hit simultaneously with so little human collateral injury and death. Obviously this disorganizes Hezbollah more than a great many airstrikes would have and it will take time for them to recover which was the Israeli objective. Unless they are stupid they know their organization has been thoroughly penetrated.
Now if you expect this to be an impediment to peace in the area then I have to underline that neither Hezbollah nor Hamas want peace with Israel under any condition whatsoever so absolutely nothing is lost by Israel’s reaction to the missile attacks and they deaths they caused in northern Israel.
30 killed and 3000 wounded over the 2 days of device explosions. Not sure how you classify this as little collateral injury.
I see you count members of Hezbollah as civilians when they are not. The number of others killed or wounded is small.
Pure evil. I refuse to take sides. Because history shows both sides are wrong. But this is pure evil.
So if they attack and cause lots of collateral damage, they’re evil. If they attack and cause no collateral damage .. .they’re evil. Sure sounds like you think 10/7 should have gone unresponsed to
But there was collateral damage, so your second statement is irrelevant.
10/7 called for an ‘eye for an eye,’ and a painful death for the leaders. It has become a war for genocide: 40,000 for 1200. Proportionality is irrelevant. Every Muslim-extended family is now against Israel.
Judge people by what they do in times of peace, not war. Two people in the process of trying to kill each other always look the same.
“But this is pure evil.”
The “enemy-combatant to civilian” casualty ratio of this attack seems to have been pretty much off the charts…
Hence, unless one is a truly committed pacifist such that all attacks on anyone is pure evil, I have a hard time understanding why this should be singled out, vis-a-vis all attacks where the number of civilian casualties per enemy combatant are tenfolds higher.
It’s not easy to target a non-state enemy operating in built up civilian areas, without a lot of civilian collateral damage. This attack accomplished that absolutely brilliantly.
It’s not nice. Mossad is unlikely to be doing much recruiting in and around Calcutta slums trying to bag Mother Theresa as a hire….. They’re no doubt looking for different skill sets…. But as far as a military operation against a sworn enemy goes, this is up there with Hamas having found a way to attack and kill 1200 Israeli soldiers, instead of rave goers. It was just bloody brilliant! Hezbollah may whine publicly, but they are warriors enough to recognize they were had, fair and square, this time around.
I agree. It’s like something out of a Bond movie.
The countries where these devices were manufactured are going to have problems. Either the authorities of these countries were aware, and in this case they directly participated in the war, with all the unpleasant consequences that can follow (terrorism at home for example). Or they were not aware, and then it is a question of arms trafficking at home, and normally this should lead to legal proceedings against the perpetrators, and this should harm relations with the country that organized this arms trafficking.
Uh huh. Maybe the UN will issue a resolution pertaining to this. [lol]
a strongly worded letter, decrying all violence and a call for a ceasefire…. you know, the thing that Hamas, Gazans and Hezbollah keep breaking.
And UN head Guterres can stomp his little feet and use his favorite term: :This is UNACCEPTABLE!”.
That guy is useless.
And that, in a nutshell, is a decent analysis.
A majority of Muslims believe that execution is the correct punishment for leaving their religion.
Islam is already “radicalised”
Only 7-20% are radicalized based on various polling. So right around 1-3 times the US population are radicalized.
It becomes a pretty big issue given how much humans value not running into a landmine. A lot of people would pay a dear price to never run into a muslim radical. If it’s a 1 in 10 chance, most people would stay away.
There are not 5 billion Muslims, thankfully.
A majority of Muslims, Jews, and Christians believe in the Old Testament. All three are already ‘radicalized.’
cry harder, son
It’s definitely terrorism Innocent people died and others could easily have died Crazy psychopathic behavior
By that definition everything is terrorism including common soldiers firing guns in built up areas (cities) since stray bullets, ricochets etc can and do kill innocent people.
Terrorism is normally defined as something targeted specifically at someone, not accidental damage. Otherwise terrorism ceases to have any meaning if accidental damage is terrorism. Only Hezbollah was targeted due to the nature of the devices.
That depends on who had the pagers. Can it be shown that the booby trapped pagers only went to Hezbollah? Israel isn’t a trustworthy source.
You really think the CIA and Biden are not involved. There is no way Israel would do this and risk the US withdrawing support.
I didn’t say the U.S. wasn’t involved. I just question whether only Hezbollah had the pagers in question. I certainly don’t think the U.S. and CIA would refrain from knowingly killing significant numbers of innocents.
Actually, it is more like snipers shooting at children playing. Oh, wait, that happened at the Gaza Wall a while back.Given the amount of leg injuries and amputees as a result, it was deliberate.
A stray bullet or bomb would be ‘collateral damage.’ Exploding bombs in random locations to kill or maim one person might, or might not be terrorism. It sure as hell is not accidental.
If you possess a pager or other device purchased and distributed by Hezbollah, then, by definition, you are not innocent.
That being said, yes, some children were hurt. They are collateral damage. Parents/guardians are responsible for their bad choices, such as working for a terrorist organization like Hezbollah or Hamas.
Mish,
Until now I have had such high regard for your intellect.
I listed both sides. What’s wrong?
That’s the problem with the world, everyone giving equal weight to “both sides”. You don’t give weight to a terrorist organization. There is no justification for the terror they propagate.
We need to go back to the old rules of taking a position that supports good over evil. And yes, Israel is the good compared to the evil of Hamas and Hezbollah.
“Israel is the good”
No, not since Netanyahu invoked that verse in 1 Samuel 15. A clear call to genocide is not good.
Israel has become as evil as the Nazis ever were. As the saying goes “you will become that which you most hate.”
FYI, both sides are terrorists. Both sides are fundamentally evil, but both sides believe they are ‘good,’ and the other side is evil. The result, both sides cannot think critically about how to solve the conflict, let alone mitigate the underlying issues.
Just like Democrats and Republicans
Good vs. evil again. Glad it’s so clear cut for you.
Frankly, if someone is going to say something like that … at least a little bit of citation would have been helpful.
heh, a friend of mine listens to both CNN and Fox and thinks he’s well educated. Both sides arguments only work when you can separate the brown material from shoe shine.
Nothing, but you’re in America and in America only one side matters…the political donor class side.
Don’t sweat it, over the years I’ve assessed that he gets most things right unless it involves Israel. Indoctrination against Jews runs very deep in many societies and we are all very susceptible to it.
When you realize that in order for their storytelling to be true. . .Jews must go bye bye, it explains far too many things. Most people can’t escape their training.
If it isn’t terrorism, then what truly is? Is sodomizing Palestinian prisoners terrorism? How about killing children and old women by snipers? Both combatants are morally repugnant. Neither is superior if they imitate each other. Nor does either have any right to complain thereby
‘Both combatants are morally repugnant.’ Yes!