Biden’s Solar Push Is Destroying the Desert and Releasing Stored Carbon

The desert isn’t barren, 90% of the story is underground.

A Costly Omission in Planning for Climate Change

Please consider A Costly Omission in Planning for Climate Change by Robin Kobaly,  a twenty-year career as a botanist with the BLM, with a Master’s Degree in biology.

Most people are not aware of the vast amount of carbon that is captured and stored underground in desert soils. 

Desert plants store much of their captured carbon deep underground in a massive network of connected roots and fungal root-partners, unlike forests which store most of their carbon aboveground or near the soil surface. Historically, much of the desert’s “soil organic carbon” has been missed by soil scientists, because many soil studies conclude at “plow-line depth,” or between 6 and 12 inches.

As with other desert plants, the long, water-seeking roots of the California Evening Primrose partner with miles of mycorrhizal filaments, and together they store large amounts of carbon underground.

Because there can be so many miles of fungal hyphae (covered with glomalin) in each cubic foot of desert soil, glomalin is attributed with storing one-third of the world’s soil carbon.

Much of the carbon these plants capture aboveground from the air and convert into sugar is eventually turned into inorganic carbon underground. When the long roots breathe out carbon dioxide deep into dark moist soil, this carbon dioxide combines with the abundant calcium in our arid soils to create mineralized deposits called caliche (calcium carbonate). These deposits start as tiny crystals but eventually grow to large crystals, then chunks, and into layers of caliche that can start at the surface or form at various depths underground. These caliche deposits can store captured carbon in this inorganic form for hundreds, to thousands, to even hundreds of thousands of years . . . if not disturbed. 

Dr. Michael Allen at the UCR Center for Conservation Biology commented on the desert’s capacity to store large amounts of carbon dioxide as caliche, noting that “The amount of carbon in caliche, when accounted globally, may be equal to the entire amount of carbon as carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.” Despite its long-term storage capacity, caliche releases its sequestered carbon when vegetation is removed and soils are disturbed and exposed to erosion. As caliche degrades in disturbed soils, its calcium and carbon molecules are uncoupled, releasing the carbon to again reenter the atmosphere.

We might first look at Mojave yucca (Yucca schidigera), an ancient, extremely slow-growing plant that is very common across both the Mojave and Colorado Deserts, and that has been found to reach ages of 2000+ years. We could calculate how much carbon one plant captures each year, then extrapolate how much carbon an individual yucca plant would sequester in say, a 1000-year lifespan. Then figure how many Mojave yuccas are expected to be ripped from the ground in a typical industrial solar field such as the newly-approved 5,000-acre Yellow Pine Solar Project in the Mojave Desert (Pahrump, Nevada) – in this case, over 80,000 Mojave yuccas will meet their demise during the construction of an array expected to operate for perhaps twenty years before becoming obsolete. Will the reduction in carbon that would have been sequestered (and stored underground) by those 80,000 Mojave yuccas actually be offset by possibly twenty years of the solar project that replaced them?

If we could do the same for the creosote bush that also can live for thousands of years, we might gain still more perspective on the critical question of net carbon gain or loss through various management practices in our ancient desert landscapes.

If few people realize the intrinsic value of the desert’s carbon contributions, it becomes more difficult to protest when thousands and thousands of acres of desert habitat are scraped bare for solar fields. It appears that the California Deserts may be sacrificed to meet California’s climate goals without even considering the full consequences of doing so. Where will our carbon footprints lead us . . . down a path that leads to a slashed-apart, industrialized desert where throngs of people once flocked for solitude and for vast uninterrupted vistas of an ancient landscape? Let’s not lose this treasure when there is a smarter path forward, including solar panels on rooftops, parking lots, fallowed agricultural lands, and even exposed aqueducts.

An Oasis Has Become a Dead Sea

The Guardian comments Solar Farms Took Over the California Desert: ‘An Oasis Has Become a Dead Sea’

Over the last few years, this swathe of desert has been steadily carpeted with one of the world’s largest concentrations of solar power plants, forming a sprawling photovoltaic sea. On the ground, the scale is almost incomprehensible. The Riverside East Solar Energy Zone – the ground zero of California’s solar energy boom – stretches for 150,000 acres, making it 10 times the size of Manhattan.

Residents have watched ruefully for years as solar plants crept over the horizon, bringing noise and pollution that’s eroding a way of life in their desert refuge.

“We feel like we’ve been sacrificed,” says Mark Carrington, who, like Sneddon, lives in the Lake Tamarisk resort, a community for over-55s near Desert Center, which is increasingly surrounded by solar farms. “We’re a senior community, and half of us now have breathing difficulties because of all the dust churned up by the construction. I moved here for the clean air, but some days I have to go outside wearing goggles. What was an oasis has become a little island in a dead solar sea.”

Concerns have intensified following the recent news of a project, called Easley, that would see the panels come just 200 metres from their backyards. Residents claim that excessive water use by solar plants has contributed to the drying up of two local wells, while their property values have been hit hard, with several now struggling to sell their homes.

The mostly flat expanse south-east of Joshua Tree national park was originally identified as a prime site for industrial-scale solar power under the Obama administration, which fast-tracked the first project, Desert Sunlight, in 2011. It was the largest solar plant in the world at the time of completion, in 2015, covering an area of almost 4,000 acres, and it opened the floodgates for more. Since then, 15 projects have been completed or are under construction, with momentous mythological names like Athos and Oberon. Ultimately, if built to full capacity, this shimmering patchwork quilt could generate 24 gigawatts, enough energy to power 7m homes.

Kevin Emmerich worked for the National Park Service for over 20 years before setting up Basin & Range Watch in 2008, a non-profit that campaigns to conserve desert life. He says solar plants create myriad environmental problems, including habitat destruction and “lethal death traps” for birds, which dive at the panels, mistaking them for water.

He says one project bulldozed 600 acres of designated critical habitat for the endangered desert tortoise, while populations of Mojave fringe-toed lizards and bighorn sheep have also been afflicted. “We’re trying to solve one environmental problem by creating so many others.”

Much of the critical habitat in question is dry wash woodland, made up of “microphyll” shrubs and trees like palo verde, ironwood, catclaw and honey mesquite, which grow in a network of green veins across the desert. But, compared with old-growth forests of giant redwoods, or expanses of venerable Joshua trees, the significance of these small desert shrubs can be hard for the untrained eye to appreciate. “When people look across the desert, they just see scrubby little plants that look dead half the time,” says Robin Kobaly, a botanist who worked at the BLM for over 20 years as a wildlife biologist before founding the Summertree Institute, an environmental education non-profit. “But they are missing 90% of the story – which is underground. ”Her book, The Desert Underground, features illustrated cross-sections that reveal the hidden universe of roots extended up to 150ft below the surface, supported by branching networks of fungal mycelium. “This is how we need to look at the desert,” she says, turning a diagram from her book upside-down. “It’s an underground forest – just as majestic and important as a giant redwood forest, but we can’t see it.”

For Alfredo Acosta Figueroa, the unstoppable march of desert solar represents an existential threat of a different kind. As a descendant of the Chemehuevi and Yaqui nations, he has watched as what he says are numerous sacred Indigenous sites have been bulldozed.

“There are so many other places we should be putting solar,” says Clarke, of the National Parks Conservation Association, from homes to warehouses to parking lots and industrial zones. He describes the current model of large-scale, centralized power generation, hundreds of miles from where the power is actually needed, as “a 20th-century business plan for a 21st-century problem”.

Lose-Lose Policy

Experts suggest the mad rush to convert desert to subsidized solar panels may be releasing mass amounts of stored carbon while simultaneously destroying archeological sites in the process.

Battles Rage Over Biden’s Clean Energy Projects as the Size and Cost Jump 

Meanwhile, back East, Battles Rage Over Biden’s Clean Energy Projects as the Size and Cost Jump

Also note, The Inflation Reduction Act Price Jumps From $385 Billion to Over $1 Trillion

What to Expect When Politicians Try to Pick Technology Winners Part 1

On may 25, with a spotlight on the EU, I commented on What to Expect When Politicians Try to Pick Technology Winners Part 1

This was part 2. 

Biden is so clearly wrong, even the extremely liberal Guardian sees it. But it’s full speed ahead with massive subsidies for something counterproductive for the goal.

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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Liam
Liam
7 months ago

Except that the Saudis are generating solar electricity at 1/4th the cost of coal, so, end of the day, it’s not the climate lobby, it’s just pure economics.

FrankW
FrankW
7 months ago

How did hydro work out for the Salmon industry in the Pacific Northwest?

DolyG
DolyG
10 months ago
“Please consider A Costly Omission in Planning for Climate Change by Robin Kobaly.”
I notice the article lacks any sort of numerical comparison, as in carbon released by cutting down on desert flora vs carbon released by the equivalent amount of electricity generated with fossil fuels. It simply refuses to admit that somebody has to make a judgement call, and that judgement call may fall precisely on the expert that knows about caliche and desert flora. Or would you prefer the issue to be judged by somebody who doesn’t understand it?
You cannot just moan and hope that moaning is enough. You have to prove your case. And if there are no judges available that understand the side of the defense, you may have to be judge and jury as well, hard as it is.
Counter
Counter
10 months ago
sounds like the economy, more goes in than comes out
KidHorn
KidHorn
10 months ago
If you look at google maps. California solar farms are few and far between. Seems we could cover 100x the current surface area with panels before running out of room.
KidHorn
KidHorn
10 months ago
This message was brought to you by the oil and gas industry. Wonder how much advertisement they had to buy to get this published.
PeterEV
PeterEV
10 months ago
Actually, going solar and storing the electricity you’ve generated at your residence can free you from any “government interference”. According to Exxon-Mobil, after about 2032, world wide crude oil production will be on a permanent decline. After around 2050, the same will happen to world-wide natural gas production. The objective should be to use our roof top areas for electrical generation instead of the desert.
We have about a 9 year window to increase the efficiency of photovoltaics, increase electrical storage density, and continue electrifying our transportation and to also find alternatives that work. Sitting around and throwing out cheap insults doesn’t get the job done.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  PeterEV
Or enter the auxiliary battery trailer for longer trips?
Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
Reply to  PeterEV
Eventually, electricity will be beamed down from satellites in orbit. The only real problem with this is that invading aliens will take out these satellite generator stations first, leaving the Earth w/o any power source other than a return to campfires.
——-
Europe Is Getting Serious About Making Space-Based Solar Power a Reality
August 29, 2022
Proposals for beaming solar power down from space have been around since the 1970s, but the idea has long been seen as little more than science fiction. Now, though, Europe seems to be getting serious about making it a reality.
Space-based solar power (SBSP) involves building massive arrays of solar panels in orbit to collect sunlight and then beaming the collected energy back down to Earth via microwaves or high-powered lasers. The approach has several advantages over terrestrial solar power, including the absence of night and inclement weather and the lack of an atmosphere to attenuate the light from the sun.
But the engineering challenge involved in building such large structures in space, and the complexities of the technologies involved, have meant the idea has remained on the drawing board so far. The director general of the European Space Agency, Josef Aschbacher, wants to change that.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo
The group that controls the direction of the space-based solar power transmission rules the Earth.
Do you like your village medium or crispy?
KidHorn
KidHorn
10 months ago
Reply to  PeterEV
In a few years, EVS will double as home battery storage. They’ll charge at night when demand is low and then help power your house during the day when demand is higher. Kia is coming out with new models next year that can do this. Almost certainly everyone else will follow.
grazzt
grazzt
10 months ago
Reply to  KidHorn
How does that add up? Unless you’re working from home, your car is not going to be there during the day. And if everyone has an EV charging at night, how is demand going to be low? May work OK in summer but what about winter when you have electric heating running as well as EV charging at night (and any home based solar also not generating anything)?
Billy
Billy
10 months ago
Somehow these massive solar farms became far more important to bypass the environmental controls and yet California has failed to build even 1 of their new reservoirs to trap the water from wiping out towns and killing humans. Even though 10 years ago the citizens voted on it.
Per
Per
10 months ago
What happened to the Mish I learnt to admire 15 years ago? Free thinking, liberal and not a friend of big banks or big oil companies. Has he been bought by fossil fuel interests? So sad to read the stock conservative views of today Mish.
Solar energy is abundant in most inhabited places, and solar power is the cheapest electricity you can get. It cannot be stopped regardless of how much money the fossil lobby spend. If utilities try to stop it solar + batteries will anyway reduce the demand for expensive, centralized and heavy taxed electricity. Yesterday, with 40 GW solar power in Germany, a lot of wind in Northern Europe, rivers in Scandinavia filled to the limits by water from an above normal snow cover in the mountains, and a normal weekend dip in demand, the producer electricity price was below zero in all of Scandinavia, Denmark and Germany. This will happen more frequently the more solar we install.
The genie is out of the bottle and cannot be undone. Fossil sources will have to live with reality. Some plants can rely on standby money from capacity auctions, but most will have to close. Gas price in Europe is the lowest since the covid crisis, and the Putin gamble on turning the gas off has been a complete disaster for Russia. Solar panel sales have increased by 100 % since the war started and we have realized we can do quite well without any energy from evil Russia.
BigOG
BigOG
5 months ago
Reply to  Per

Solar is a joke. Low density, low quality, intermittent and expensive.

prumbly
prumbly
10 months ago
“Climate change” has never had anything remotely to do with science, so why is anyone surprised by this? If science was applied we would have plenty of clean, cheap energy from fossil fuels for at least another 50 years and not be wrecking the world with highly polluting, eyesore windmills and solar arrays. But, alas, science and truth mean very little any more.
PapaDave
PapaDave
10 months ago
The decades long energy transition to renewables is not going very well. This is simply one more example
of the issues standing in the way.
In the meantime, the worlds demand for energy keeps growing year after year. And even with the trillions spent so far, renewables have not displaced fossil fuels in any significant way at this point in time. Issues such as this one will only make it harder for renewables to displace fossil fuels going forward.
Which is why it is estimated that world wide demand for oil will grow to a record 102 million barrels per day this year. However, the oil companies are still not spending much on capex, which is leading to tighter supplies going forward. Which is very rewarding for them as it will force oil prices higher and lead to much higher cash flows in the future.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  PapaDave
In May, 2008, crude peaked at $127+, largely as a result of Chinese demand from a gov’t subsidized price. It quickly fell to $41+ about 8 months later (the Great Recession). Over the next 10 or so years, it saw a low of $18+ in May 2020 (Covid stopped traffic), and a high of $105+ in June 2022 (speculative return from Covid and supply shortages, plus higher demand). If you calculate the 20-year long term trend (which incorporates most of what you are talking about), today’s price of $72+ is where, exactly? Of course, today’s price still incorporates a Russian factor.
BTW, the next recession, which is still in startup phase, has not affected driving habits yet.
Christoball
Christoball
10 months ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Today’s price of $72 is in 2023 diluted dollar value. The 18-20% devaluation of the dollar in the last 3 years would put oil in the $58 dollar range in 2020 dollars. About where it was in Summer 2019. Oil eroded another 10% by winter and then crashed in Spring 2020 due to the covid scare. America was more robust then than now and we haven’t even fully felt the effects of the current recession. Oil has it’s ups and downs.
PapaDave
PapaDave
10 months ago
Reply to  Christoball
I don’t care about your calculations. However feel free to short the oils if you want to put your money where your mouth is. That’s what makes a market. Differences of opinion. My guess though is that you don’t have the balls to actually put money behind your words. People here talk big, but when you ask them about their investments, all you hear is crickets.
At an oil price of $72 the oil companies I own shares in are gushing cash flow. That is because most of them have breakeven points of $28-$40. In the last two years they have used that cash flow to pay down or pay off debt, giving them fortress balance sheets and helping to lower their costs. And most are spending the minimum necessary on capex now. Just enough to maintain or slowly grow production. So now they are using that huge cash flow to actively buy back shares and increase dividends. Some of the oil stocks I bought 2-3 years ago have already paid me more in dividends than I originally paid for the stock. Never mind that they have increased in value by 3x-8x since then.
I am going to remain heavily invested in them because they are so compelling.
Now. Surprise me. Show me that you have balls. Tell me what you are invested in and why.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I think shorting some oil/gas service companies may be a good play.
Considering the major’s limiting capex we may have more service companies than we are going to require.
PapaDave
PapaDave
10 months ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker

I own a few pipelines. I have been avoiding the drillers and most other service companies for the reason that most companies are limiting capex.

US Rig counts have been dropping lately:

The total number of total active drilling rigs in the United States fell by 9 this week, according to new data from Baker Hughes published Friday, after falling by 11 last week and 17 the week before that.
The total rig count fell to 711 this week—16 rigs below this time last year. The current count is 364 fewer rigs than the rig count at the beginning of 2019, prior to the pandemic.
Christoball
Christoball
10 months ago
Reply to  PapaDave
My investments are governed by what the Almighty whispers in my ear. It is hard to share that in any meaningful way with others because the Almighty has a unique plan and purpose for each of us. The still small voice is shared at a personal level, and is never about the love of money.
Christoball
Christoball
10 months ago
CO2 is a beautiful thing if you are a plant. Sequestering CO2 with Natural Habitat Expansion as opposed to deforestation and other destruction of habitat is the solution. Expanding the Natural Animal Kingdom would allow them to co-steward the process. The Animal and Vegetable Kingdom are a much more efficient solution to CO2 than the Mineral kingdom ever will be.
Doubling Tree Count, and Doubling Tree age would do more than any Tesla or windmill ever could. Just doubling Prairie Grassland would sequester more CO2 than all the Solar Panels in the world possibly prevent. Why not more focus on Passive solar energy in homes and Solar water heating????
Government policies are rapists and molesters. They rape and molest your wallet and they rape and molest the earth. These policies are all to benefit The Greed Brokers pockets.
ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, and MINERAL….. you can only pick two. Which two would you pick to save????
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  Christoball
I usually cook my vegetables and animals in some mineral thingy, and use some minerals to eat with.
Christoball
Christoball
10 months ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
I was speaking of environmental policy, not culinary policy.
I was also speaking to the fact that technological solutions are given priority over time proven natural solutions.
Imagine the fully functioning natural world the North American natives provided for the colonialists to plunder. The colonial mindset is still prevalent in the scientific and political community. When life gives you CO2 use it.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
10 months ago
“Biden’s Solar Push Is Destroying the Desert and Releasing Stored Carbon”
Now do a series of posts about how much a ruptured oil & gas pipeline destroys water drinking supplies and creates other environmental pollution then jump over to how much water is wasted on fracking for each well. A good title may be “GOP destroying the planet and water supply for oil & gas production.
The average fracking job uses roughly 4 million gallons of water per
well – or about as much water as New York City uses every six minutes
and about 1.3 percent of the water used by the country’s car washes every day.
That can vary by state, because the amount of water used in each
hydraulic fracturing job depends on geology and a number of other
factors. In California, for example, the average fracking job needed
more than 116,000 gallons of water. Yet, that’s less than half the water used every day to irrigate the average California golf course.
I love the comparisons here from the petroleum institute insinuating New Yorkers are evil people for drinking and using water mostly which can be recycled back but fracking water is polluted and gone forever.
Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Speaking of ruptured pipelines, I never knew that there was such a thing as CO2 pipelines and that they could be extremely dangerous if broken.
———
The U.S. is expanding CO2 pipelines. One poisoned town wants you to know its story
May 21, 2023 6:01 AM ET
SATARTIA, Miss. – On Feb. 22, 2020, a clear Saturday after weeks of rain, Deemmeris Debra’e Burns, his brother and cousin decided to go fishing. They were headed home in a red Cadillac when they heard a boom and saw a big white cloud shooting into the evening sky.
Burns’ first thought was a pipeline explosion. He didn’t know what was filling the air, but he called his mom, Thelma Brown, to warn her to get inside. He told her he was coming.
Brown gathered her young grandchild and great-grandchildren she was watching, took them into her back bedroom, and got under the quilt with them. And waited.
“They didn’t come,” Brown says. “Ten minutes. I knew they would’ve been here in five minutes, but they didn’t come.”
Little did she know, her sons and nephew were just down the road in the Cadillac, unconscious, victims of a mass poisoning from a carbon dioxide pipeline rupture. As the carbon dioxide moved through the rural community, more than 200 people evacuated and at least 45 people were hospitalized. Cars stopped working, hobbling emergency response. People lay on the ground, shaking and unable to breathe. First responders didn’t know what was going on. “It looked like you were going through the zombie apocalypse,” says Jack Willingham, emergency director for Yazoo County.
Now, three years after the CO2 poisoning from the pipeline break, some in Satartia see the incident as a warning at a critical moment for U.S. climate policy. The country is looking at a dramatic expansion of its carbon dioxide pipeline network, thanks in part to billions of dollars of incentives in last year’s climate legislation. Last week, the Biden administration announced $251 million for a dozen climate projects that focus on CO2 transport and storage.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo
For anyone that doesn’t believe trashing the planet has consequences, they are not paying attention to the economic realities. California insurer State Farm has bailed on issue policies for fires. In Florida, insurance is getting so expensive it’s likely all insurers will bail from the state at some point in the future.
billybobjr
billybobjr
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Way more complicated issue than that and California regulations not allowing premium increases when the state
has not controled burns in areas that are prone to wildfires . Building massive developments in fire prone areas
ect . California has a geological history of droughts to massive floods way before we got here .
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
All the more reason to keep pushing up the price of houses, so it costs more to insure. That’s the ticket! Brillian!
Zardoz
Zardoz
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Merely a plot by the Dark Lord Soros to pollute our precious bodily fluids.
RonJ
RonJ
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
California brush fires are not caused by trashing the planet. Some are arson, some are downed power lines during common wind events, some are even from dry lightning. One that burned down several homes, was started by a fire in a trash truck, which resulted in the driver dumping the trash on the side of the road, after which wind spread the fire toward the homes. One large brush fire in L.A., that consumed some 25,000 acres, the fire department felt they had the fire under control and pulled out some resources, only to have the fire flare up rapidly due to changed wind conditions.
billybobjr
billybobjr
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Explain “polluted and gone forever”. Where did the water go ? Elon Musk laughed at John Mayer when he bought
up we have a water problem . He said we have no water problems there is a massive amount of water on the planet
there is no water problem . Now there may be water problem if you build millions of homes in the desert and you
expect a lot of rain in that area but we have massive amounts of water on the planet .
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
10 months ago
Reply to  billybobjr
Explain “polluted and gone forever”
Clean water is taken and mixed with chemicals to extract natural gas then pumped into the ground. Where do you think drinking water comes from? Warning the article below has science in it so it may be beyond your capabilities. I can explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you.
And musk proved himself to be a clown, couldn’t even get twitter to work on desantis big presidential run. It was ‘dumb and dumber’ sideshow.
billybobjr
billybobjr
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Guess you never got the earth is 2/3 water and yes desalination is and can be done very efficiently. The water
pumped into the ground will eventually be deluted with massive amounts of rain water coming down in quantities
that dwarf the amount put in . The article you linked said it can but there have not been many that has been documented .
I am sure the EPA is on it
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
10 months ago
Reply to  billybobjr
Then carry on and don’t worry about it. When the day comes that you or your family members start getting strange cancers or other diseases you can blame it on Brandon and live happily ever after.
I own a variety of distillers and water purifiers and only drink ultra purified water and have done so for 20+ years because I saw this and a lot worse coming. Food will be the next disaster and I’m well stock piled for that too.
billybobjr
billybobjr
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Great that you stay prepared I do too we agree on that .
billybobjr
billybobjr
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
This is an example of the amount of water that falls in 1 small rain event in a small area . This area probably averages 50 or so inches a year
the amount of water that comes down anually over the country is massive . This would mean Atlanta receives 100 billion gallons of water
yearly the state of georgia would be in the many trillions of gallons of water
Atlanta, Georgia has corporate boundaries that cover about 84,100 acres (U.S. Census Bureau). A 1-inch rainstorm deposits 27,154 gallons on one acre, so during this storm Atlanta receives 2.28 billion gallons of water.
prumbly
prumbly
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
This is typical of the kind of half-assed thinking the climate crisis fanatics always do. They can never complete an entire thought, especially when doing so would go against their narrative. Sure, fracking water goes deep underground where it will probably stay for a long time, but what about the water that comes out the well? Fossil fuels themselves produce lots of clean water when they combust but in addition to that, water comes out of the well with the oil/natgas – an average of TEN barrels of water for every barrel of oil, with much of it being re-used by the oil industry for fracking etc. Overall, far more water comes out of the ground than goes into it.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Thanks to Biden (and the clowns in DC) destroying the NORD lines did massive damage to the ocean ecology.
BTW, using your logic, doesn’t using 4 million gallons of water every six minutes call for the destruction of New York City?
Doug78
Doug78
10 months ago
Eventually energy will be fusion and then there will be a lot of money made by tearing down and disposing of now unneeded and unsightly windmills and solar farms.
Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
Reply to  Doug78
Or we might be able to reach into another dimension (string theory proposes 11 dimensions) and draw unlimited energy out from one of the others.
Doug78
Doug78
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo

Matter and energy are different manifestations of the same thing and we know how to harness that so now we will find ways to suck energy from a vacuum.

Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
Reply to  Doug78
E=MC2
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo
It does, until another equation replaces it.
Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
Reply to  Doug78
How about directly from the air around us?
———–
Scientists Find a Way to Harvest Clean Energy From Nothing But Air
27 May 2023
Engineers have demonstrated something marvelous. Almost any material can be used to create a device that continuously harvests energy from humid air.
It’s not a development that’s ready for practical application, but it does, its creators say, transcend some of the limitations of other harvesters. All the material needs is to be pocked with nanopores less than 100 nanometers in diameter. That’s around a thousandth of the width of a human hair, so easier said than done but far simpler than expected.
Doug78
Doug78
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo

My friend Rick Sanchez knows a way.

Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo
People said similar things about gravity–which is a source of unlimited energy once we figure out how to tap it.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo
There is an interesting science fiction story about two different worlds that have been doing just that, energy from another dimension — and they meet each other while trying to find out why their “free” source of energy is being depleted.
Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
That was a story by Isaac Asimov titled The Gods Themselves. It was an interesting and fairly good story.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo
Thanks. I used to know that.
Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Google is full of facts! lol
KidHorn
KidHorn
10 months ago
Reply to  Doug78
And we’ll all be flying around with jetpacks any day now.
MarkraD
MarkraD
10 months ago
It would take 21,000 square miles of solar panels to power the entire country (with current efficiencies, not accounting for tech breakthroughs), that amounts to 3% of our total desert, we’re never going to use 100% solar power, ever.
I’ll wager the carbon emissions saved would more than adequately offset the difference lost from desert plants accounting for less than 3% of our deserts, I just like cheaper energy and local jobs myself.
I just want out of dependency on foreign dictators and bloated energy prices.
Zardoz
Zardoz
10 months ago
Reply to  MarkraD
How much of that stuff would even rot? More likely it would just lay there dead for another 500 years.
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
10 months ago
Reply to  MarkraD
Multiply the 21,000 square miles by 5 to allow for actual capacity factors. The panel’s output is rated at high noon at the summer solstice.
Then multiply by 92% to allow for losses charging the batteries, 92% again to account for discharging the batteries, and 90% for inverter efficiency and line losses.
You have to reserve some space between the rows of panels for servicing, and if you use tracking arrays to improve the capacity factor then you need enough room between the rows to avoid each from shading another row.
Then we need the batteries to deal with the night problem. Elon has a new one that stores 3.9 MW-hr of energy. It weighs 42 tons.
The local nuclear plant puts out 1200 MW. To replace the output of that plant for a 16 hour winter night would take 4,923 of those batteries. The total weight of the batteries is 206,800 tons, or two aircraft carriers.
The next morning the batteries are flat so you now have 8 hours of daylight to charge the batteries and you still have to supply the 1200 MW.
There is a large gap between saving a few dollars on your electric bill and keeping the factory running.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
10 months ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
Math unadulterated by popular hopium.
MarkraD
MarkraD
10 months ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
All variables factored in, 21,000 square miles would power the U.S. – I briefly mentioned that when I said “not accounting for tech breakthroughs”, this estimate is dated to when panels were strictly 15%, it accounts for storage losses.
Bottom line, the comparison of carbon emitted from desert plants to carbon emitted by fossil fuels is asinine.
Hypothetically, we’d stop using 32 trillion cf of nat gas / year “if” we went to 100% solar, I doubt you think 21,000 square miles, or even 100 sq miles of desert plants would emit that per year.
I don’t even care about the left vs right debate on climate change, I like the cheaper energy and localized jobs.
.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
10 months ago
Corruption at the speed of stupid.
Toutatis
Toutatis
10 months ago
Maybe it would be smarter to start by putting solar panels on all the buildings.
Zardoz
Zardoz
10 months ago
Reply to  Toutatis
Harder to insert a middleman that way.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
10 months ago
Biden’s pen handlers must be under Chinese control.
To make the renewable solar energy competitive, it needs Chinese panels which are cheap because of mercantilism.
It’s a polluting, energy intensive production operation, melting quartz with carbon (coke), then multiple-step refining process.
The rare earth industry (also dirty) for wind turbines are also under Chinese control.
It all has the optics of a deliberate state policy.
Zardoz
Zardoz
10 months ago
Chinese lizard people? I’m just asking questions.
Doug78
Doug78
10 months ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Lizard people have only one race but they are masters of disguise. By the way my cat looks at me I swear he is one of them.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  Doug78
Actually, your cat is thinking the same thing as you are. Do NOT trust your cat!
msspec
msspec
10 months ago
….”The rare earth industry (also dirty) for wind turbines are also under Chinese control.
It all has the optics of a deliberate state policy.”
Kudos for seeing the ”mercantilism” in the policy process.
Capital will go where the engineered concentration thereof (by gov’t fiat) directs it, ill-advised or not.
….But, but…’Climate Change’! Biden, Kerry and Co. said so.
Will we awaken to this sophistry/hypocrisy before it’s too late?
MarkraD
MarkraD
10 months ago
Reply to  msspec
….”The rare earth industry (also dirty) for wind turbines are also under Chinese control.
It all has the optics of a deliberate state policy.”
Not for very long, just google “iron nitride” and/or “Niron magnetics”
An American company has just developed a process that can mass produce the single strongest rare earth magnet at a fraction the price…. Musk announced Tesla will be dropping rare earth’s and using this product instead.
Chinese EV manufacturers will be buying it from us.
.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  MarkraD
My vote is for hopium carbide.
KidHorn
KidHorn
10 months ago
We have 100% tariffs on their panels.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
The real joke is that those same deserts (and frozen wastes elsewhere) are the result of decreased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere millions of years ago. That’s where all the carbon in carbon-based fuels came from in the first place. We live on a gradually dying planet. Global warming might be what saves the planet from extinction.
MarkraD
MarkraD
10 months ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Oh yes, and when I eats lotsa chocolate cake, the extra sugar gives me added energy, I work harder, thus I lose weight.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  MarkraD
I assume you don’t like my alternative narrative because it doesn’t fit the political objective. Please correct me if I’m mistaken.
You might take a look at a map of the world–identify the frozen wastes and deserts–most uninhabitable. There sure is a lot of it. Underneath most if not all were once vast thriving forests. Ask yourself where did all the carbon in coal, oil, and gas come from? Hint: not from chocolate cake.
MarkraD
MarkraD
10 months ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
The U.S. consumes over 32 trillion CF nat gas per year, not including coal and oil….and you think fewer than 3% of our desert has more than that in stored carbon.
Chocolate cake diet, when critical thinking’s just too much.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  MarkraD
I will ‘xplain’ my point since you can’t seem to grasp it. My comment was a generality, not a comment on desert stored CO2.
“…U.S. consumes over 32 trillion CF nat gas per year…” Ask yourself the obvious question, WHERE DID THE NATURAL GAS COME FROM in the first place?’ Either it was a) part of an internal earth process, or b) organic life made it. Perhaps space aliens used the Earth as a dumping ground?
Maybe you should stick with chocolate cake.
MarkraD
MarkraD
10 months ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
“Ask yourself the obvious question, WHERE DID THE NATURAL GAS COME FROM in the first place?’”
Do you have a learning disability?…Maybe a reading comprehension problem?
KidHorn
KidHorn
10 months ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
What? Desserts exist because of low precipitation. And frozen wastelands exist because of cold temperatures. Desserts have always existed, regardless of CO2 levels.
TheCaptain
TheCaptain
10 months ago
The government doesn’t care about the planet. It cares about control. Funneling everyone into having just 1 energy source, electricity, simply makes it easier to control the masses. If you have a oil burner or coal burner or nat gas burner, you can feed it from a tank that they cannot control. But electricity is trivial to both monitor and control.
msspec
msspec
10 months ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
“….If you have a oil burner or coal burner or nat gas burner, you can feed
it from a tank that they cannot control. But electricity is trivial to
both monitor and control.”
….until Big Daddy outlaws the storage of oil, natgas, coal, etc. by ‘we, the people’…
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
10 months ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
EV’s have a couple of key advantages over ICE vehicles. The key advantage is that electricity is a common denominator. All energy source methods can be converted to electricity. But it’s kinda hard to convert electricity back to oil, gas, plutonium, or coal. Sure, something to remember: Electricity can and must be converted to and from gravity, inertia, wind, or some very handy chemical magic.
Put nicely, when you operate electrically, you maximize your competitive energy sources. Put crudely, you don’t depend on corrupt strong-man, El Generalissimo Ivan Mohammad for your energy needs.
BTW, the other key advantage, EV over ICE, is that EVs promise to be more reliable.
Right now, these advantages don’t beat ICEs’ energy density/transport-ability and installed infrastructure, but we’ll see how it goes. Wild cards are in play. Consider fusion, geo-thermal, and animal-like robots, for instance.
Teresa Pierce
Teresa Pierce
10 months ago
Reply to  TheCaptain

Truth in this comment.

Nuddernoitall
Nuddernoitall
10 months ago
“When bureaucrats put there personal agenda ahead of what science can deliver, bad things happen.”
When bureaucrats put their personal agenda ahead of what science can deliver, bad things happen. Fixed it.
msspec
msspec
10 months ago
Reply to  Nuddernoitall
”When bureaucrats put their personal agenda ahead of what science can deliver, bad things happen. Fixed it.”
Thanks to your keen editing skills the meaning is clear.
Re-reading prose for content, syntax, continuity and such is no longer valued…must have something to do with how and when one was educated.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
10 months ago
Reply to  msspec
Similarly, in math and science, logic and accuracy are no longer valued, just the political message.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
10 months ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
That stuff you write of is not important, what is important is your feelings and everybody else’s feelings.
Which is why things are not working out very well.
Different people have different feelings and it is very hard to force them to get in line.
Too bad, so sad.
Teresa Pierce
Teresa Pierce
10 months ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker

what is important is using common sense to saving the planet, not destroying the ecosystem that is already been in place for thousands of years. Not jumping on the green new deal push to save the planet, do your research. there are a lot of really bad sides to the deal they are pushing. I know I live right in the middle of the big fat mess they are creating in our Desert. This has nothing to do with feelings it has to do with people in the government and solar companies making a big fat profit and destroying the planet not helping it.

Jojo
Jojo
10 months ago
“Experts suggest the mad rush to convert desert to subsidized solar panels may be releasing mass amounts of stored carbon while simultaneously destroying archeological sites in the process.”
Why would anyone be surprised? Such choices has nothing at all to do with any political party.
Nature and the universe, over the eons, has developed as finely balanced systems. Everything works together and in concert. Change one input and multiple other factors are affected.
OTOH, humans are short-sighted and think that changing one variable/input will solve whatever the particular problem is, instead of thinking in terms of a system approach.
High blood pressure? Here’s a drug (with many possible side effects) that reduces BP, without examine WHY one’s blood pressure might be high and what can be changed before using a drug. Same with climate change. High CO2? Let’s choose some supposed solution, such as EV’s or wind power or solar cells, w/o enough thought as to how our solutions will affect the overall system balance.
Unfortunately, much of these inadequate choices are due to how our political and economic systems work and therefore are not amenable to easy or even, any change.
BB43
BB43
10 months ago
Reply to  Jojo
At least with the blood pressure comparison, we know that high BP is a proven health hazard. Implications of “high” CO2 (and btw what IS that redline concentration?) are…what? and why? Trace this insanity back to its origin and you find a couple of pseudo-scientists suffering from inferiority complexes named James Hansen and Michael Mann who struck publicity gold with an ignorant populace and instantly became ‘somebody’ with the politicization of ‘climate change.’ Voila! And here we are obsessively spending imaginary dollars blighting the landscape with windmills and solar panels to assure that…plant life is properly starved of an essential photosynthesis component? As with nearly everything else involving human beings: Follow The Money.
Crowhouse
Crowhouse
6 months ago
Reply to  Jojo

Carbon is actually a good thing.

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