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Brazil’s President Calls for End to US Dollar Trade Dominance, So What?

https://twitter.com/RobMcNealy/status/1646548761169260550

Question of the Day

Brazil’s president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, wonders: “Every night I ask myself why all countries are forced to do their trade backed by the dollar. Why can’t we do trade based on our own currencies? Who was it that decided that the dollar was the currency after the disappearance of the gold standard?

This is more than a bit amusing. No one is forcing Brazil, Russia, India, and China (the BRICs) to do trade in dollars.

Countries Don’t Trade!

For starters, Countries Don’t Trade

  • Only individuals, separately and in voluntarily formed groups such as firms, create or take advantage of economies of scale, of scope, or of both in production; countries, as such, do not.
  • Only individuals, separately or in voluntarily formed groups such as firms, spend, save, and invest; countries, as such, don’t.
  • Only individuals experience income, wealth, or welfare gains and losses; countries as such experience nothing.
  • Of course, we can – and do – talk, for example, about “America trading with China,” about “Germany having a comparative advantage in the brewing of beer,” about “India’s national income rising,” and about “Peru’s trade deficit falling.” But all this talk merely describes the largely unintended, aggregate results of countless choices and actions each made by a particular, flesh-and-blood person.
  • And also, of course, governments do perform many of these activities – for example, spend. But no government is a country. Each government is merely a particular organization run by particular, flesh-and-blood persons according to a certain set of formal and informal rules.

Trade Example

  • A Brazilian soybean producer sells soybeans to a merchant in China. 
  • A Brazilian scooter manufacturer buys Lithium batteries from a Chinese merchant.
  • The soybean producer buys nothing from Chinese merchants.
  • The Chinese battery producer buys nothing from Brazilian merchants.

Why would the Brazilian soybean producer want to hold yuan, especially given that the yuan doesn’t even float? 

Why would the Chinese battery producer want to hold the Brazilian Real?  

No one is forcing the soybean producer or the battery producer to do anything. By choice they prefer to trade in dollars, which by the way is instantly convertible to any currency the producers may wish to hedge in. 

It is only at the government level, where for political reasons, the governments may wish to make agreements in other currencies. 

How Significant is Government Trade in Other Currencies?

Not at all.

If the Brazilian government wishes to buy Chinese weapons, unless the Brazilian government has yuan reserves, it would have to convert dollar reserves, gold, or the Real to yuan to buy the weapons.

And why would the Brazilian government have yuan reserves in the first place unless the Brazilian government had a trade surplus with the Chinese government?

The only other reason the Brazilian government might accumulate yuan is if Brazilian  merchants run trade surpluses with Chinese merchants and the Brazilian central bank sterilizes the trade, swapping Real for Yuan.

Sterilization is a monetary action in which a central bank seeks to limit the effect of inflows and outflows of capital on the money supply. 

In contrast, given the US has a trade deficit with most other countries, and given those governments swap their local currency for the dollar, foreign governments accumulate dollars by default. 

But foreign governments can trade reserve dollars or their national currency for some other currency at will. 

So Mr. Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, if you want to hold yuan, go ahead. What’s stopping you? 

By the way, the US has a net trade surplus with Brazil. But there is no need or desire for US individuals or corporations to hold the Real.

De-Dollarization Nonsense

In conclusion, de-dollarization talk is 99% nonsense. 

Meanwhile, please note that mathematically someone must hold every dollar 100% of the time. 

Who is the holder going to be?

This post originated at MishTalk.Com

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45 Comments
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FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
3 years ago
….makes me wonder , ain t there a way for the CIA to orchestrate a coup against yet another US foe ?
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
They are working on making Flanders independent now.
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
3 years ago
I am afraid your ‘trade example’ don t make much sense mr Mish ; when a Brazilian company buys Chinese stuff they would have to pay in Yuan , vice versa , a Chinese counterparty would pay in Real, so nobody would have to hold each other currencies like you pretend… am I right or right ?
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
3 years ago
“Why would the Brazilian soybean producer want to hold yuan, especially given that the yuan doesn’t even float?”
Because almost everything he needs to buy from abroad, is made in China. Holding Zimbabwean Dollars instead; which very well may be worthless vis-a-vis Yuan by the time he needs a new something; simply isn’t particularly prudent. Even less so, if Zimbabwe has a reputation for randomly confiscating his bank accounts and stopping him from making payments; just because, eh?, someone in Zimbabwe suddenly gets a hunch that doing so will make him look tough and cool on TeeVee…
Pretty much the only reason it is prudent to hold anything other than Yuan by now, is blind faith in China’s continued targeting of the USD with the Yuan. Which is what ensures, for the time being, that holding USD is; minus the arbitrary confiscations and similar infractions; virtually the equivalent of holding Yuan. And logistically, for historical reasons, Dollar accounts are just way more available. So why not? You get to hold the equivalent of the Yuan you need to buy near anything of any value, without having to deal with the hassles of changing anything banking related, upsetting applecarts etc…
Problem is: China won’t keep sponsoring the US that way indefinitely. At some point, in not too long, they’d rather not facilitate underperforming hasbeens bidding against them for scarce commodities Chinese people and organisations need at home. And then: Suddenly the amount of Yuan that a dollar will buy you, will drop. Like all such things: First slowly, then all at once…. By that time, the big, make-or-break sellers of the most important commodities, in particular oil, will already have put in place infrastructure enabling them to take payment in, and hold, Yuan. In parallel with dollars. So the ensuing scramble to follow suit, will largely be by the likes of the above Soybean producer, and the banks he uses.
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago
Any currency is only worth what it can buy. If there is greater risk to holding a currency (e.g. because it might be confiscated or if it’s value depreciates noticeably between the point of acquiring it and the point of exchanging it for goods) then people will no longer use that currency if a less risky option is available. I think we’re part way there with the USD (due to risk of confiscation) but not quite there with the depreciation risk. The problem is no less risky national currency exists as a substitute
Jim767
Jim767
3 years ago
This is really quite simple.
No other country has the importing (trade) abilities that the US has (think DEMAND). Sure perhaps countries could decide to use the RMB in their trade exchanges. But, first China is the 2nd largest economy, only to the US, ask yourself, what purchasing power/consumption volume do the Chinese people have……..say…… compared to the US consumer?
Is it by mistake that the US economy is 75% consumerism and squat for manufacturing? Our manufacturing was farmed off for (1) reason and (1) reason only, to create cheap goods and services for (SUPPLY), which creates need for the exchange of the $$$. Could it be by design we run a trade deficit vs. a surplus by design?
A country needs to export (SUPPLY), if it wants it’s economy to grow and prosper.
Sure, they can sell to gazillion small countries and deal with all of the other currencies and exchanges, or they could go to (1) mammoth country and abide by 1 currency, that’s central, easy to exchange for anything their heart desires.
Jim767
Jim767
3 years ago
Reply to  Jim767
This graphic helps illustrates things a bit…

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/countries-by-share-of-global-economy/

Flatlaxity
Flatlaxity
3 years ago
During the 17th and 18th centuries the principal reserve currency in Europe was the Dutch Guilder. Then England took over with the Pound being the principal currency not only in Europe, but given the spread of the English Empire and evolving world trade, in much of the rest of the world. Following the Depression in the 1930’s, and especially after WWII, the Dollar took over as the world’s senior currency – as it is today.

As you point out, the determination and use of the senior currency is done in the thousands of the world’s urban (and outlying) centers by private financial and goods/services companies, and individuals – and not by countries.

Are the Dollar’s days numbered? Yes…we cannot go on forever by printing Dollars and thereby import much more than we export. But we’re talking here about half-centuries and centuries having passed. This change-over to commodity-backed currencies, gold or whatever, will be gradual in forthcoming.

Regarding gold, I feel strongly that Powell (unlike Volcker in history), has through his FRBNY member banks – who are also the principal members of the huge London Gold Exchange – has been keeping gold’s price suppressed. After all, we’ve experienced sizable double-digit inflation and gold has done nothing. Now this inflation time is passing and we’re supposed to be approaching another time, that of financial chaos, whereby people would otherwise rush to gold. I can only say that given the Fed’s huge financial support of these member banks, they can through the huge paper-gold trades, keep the price of gold mitigated. This does not mean that gold’s price won’t go up – but not to “runaway” levels.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  Flatlaxity
“After all, we’ve experienced sizable double-digit inflation and gold has done nothing.”
Not true really, it depends on your time horizon, at any particular point in time Gold is overbought or oversold, so measuring it against inflation over short timescales generates the greatest distortions. 20 years ago Gold was around $400 per ounce, it has risen by a compound rate of roughly 8.375% to get to todays $2000, much more than inflation.
GruesomeHarvest
GruesomeHarvest
3 years ago
Mish, I think your analysis lacks a historical perspective. The British pound used to be the reserve currency and it was enforced by gun boat diplomacy. Then Brentwood set up the dollar as the reserve currency after two (unnecessary) world wars destroyed the British Empire and the pound. The world has evolved since then, but, habits, routines and institutions have their own momentum. Now thanks to US foriegn policy, the world has bifurcated into two camps with China-Russia leading one camp and the US – Europe leading the other. But the idiot Biden Administration is so feckless as to blow up German energy infrastructure, that France is making rumblings that perhaps it want to join the belt and road initiative. I think the dollar will lose it status much quicker than most people think. And what do you think that will do US inflation? Furthermore, Ukraine is about to collapse and lose its war and the smoking crater of Ukraine will serve as a warning to all nations to avoid getting into bed with the US: Taiwan comes to mind… I’m reminded of the old Chinese curse, May you live in interesting times!
GruesomeHarvest
GruesomeHarvest
3 years ago
Reading other comments here, I think you have a pretty astute and informed readership.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Ukraine – and very likely down the road, Taiwan – will serve as a great illustration of the quote : “To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend, is fatal.”
GruesomeHarvest
GruesomeHarvest
3 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
Indeed! It’s really sad. If only the Bozos in DC would follow George Washington’s advice to “avoid foriegn entanglements”. I think the US has enough problems at home to focus on, and NO it has nothing to do with where guys in dresses pee! Sure Barry Obama thought it the #1 domestic issue, but that says more about how feckless and lame-brained our leaders are and our lack of seriousness as a nation..
WarpartySerf
WarpartySerf
3 years ago
Mish you forgot to mention President Blinken’s weaponization of the dollar. What countries, already tired of being a serf of the United States, would want to trade in dollars that can be confiscated at the whim of Victoria Neuland , or Blinken, or Jake Sullivan ?
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago

Every night I
ask myself why all countries are forced to do their trade backed by the dollar.
Why can’t we do trade based on our own currencies? Who was it that decided that
the dollar was the currency after the disappearance of the gold standard?

Lula is
wondering why the gold standard no longer exists. No country in the world has
their currency backed by gold nor is it used much for international transactions. You must remember that Lula is schooled in Marx and Marx wrote extensively about money and had a deep understanding of what money actually is. To be brief Marx believed that money is a commodity as another and that since monetary conditions within each country are unique to that country any international trade would have to be in a “universal currency” and he thought that this currency would have to tied to gold and silver essentially because they are universally recognized. In this Marx and Libertarians have common ground.

Lula sees that when the US went off the gold standard it forced everyone else to do the same and it did. What he doesn’t see is by going off the gold standard countries who didn’t have gold could for the first time participate fully in the world economy. The Dollar replaced gold and silver because it has inherent advantages such as fluidity and liquidity that gold, since the quantity is more or less fixed, cannot match. If the Dollar didn’t exist in an industrialized world it would have had to be invented. Lula is just wondering why it didn’t turn out as Marx said it would. He sees a conspiracy when it is just common sense for buyers, sellers and holders.
FromBrussels2
FromBrussels2
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Been watching LCI today by any chance ? Well , I did , so judging by your comment you did too ….this is a too small world Doug…
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  FromBrussels2
I didn’t watch LCI today. I rarely do. What did they say? My comments came from what I know of Lula’s education put together with Marx’s writings on currency.
Mjs357
Mjs357
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
So, when the BRICS admits a few more countries (at least 20 have applied) and surpasses the US and EU in GDP…will this not be the infal straw in de-dollarization? These countries have proposed a global/universal currency backed by precious metals, rare-earth minerals, oil, and land. Since China and many of these countries who have applied to BRICS are largely Marxist-based poly-econ systems AND the UN has declared China’s approach to global governance as most appealing, then is it not logical to assume a new reserve currency is probable in the nearer future? Me thinks there is a lot of hubris to believe Western civ will continue to dominate and control the rest of the world for too much longer. De-dollarization is required for a “Great Reset”. “They” tell us what their plans are, if we choose to listen.
dtj
dtj
3 years ago
I think the day the dollar died was when the U.S. tried to use the dollar as a weapon against Russia last year. China and every other nation took note.
U.S. national debt now at $32 trillion. How much will the dollar be worth when it hits $50 trillion? How much debt is too much?
The debt will be paid back through foreigners purchasing most of our real estate and the privatization of federal assets including airports, interstates, bridges, federal land, etc. Most of the U.S. population will be impoverished with nothing to show for it.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  dtj
Wait… we can have an Americathon and save it!
Eighthman
Eighthman
3 years ago
https://www.rt.com/india/574551-india-foreign-trade-dollar/ If this is accurate, then rejection of the dollar by central banks is much farther along than I thought. Beyond that, it sounds like nations really want this to happen and will do workarounds to get it – and that the rupee is being ignored making progress against the dollar.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
the us petro dollar was a gangster style protection racket, which forced nations to price their oil in dollars. after nixon defaulted on gold backing, this was kissenger’s brainchild to keep us from turning into his childhood nightmare of weimar germany. we the empire of the dollar have invaded and bombed many innocent humans over what currency to trade in. pro tip. all the past empires dominant currencies were used less and less as their old empires died off as military powers. start with the spanish and portuguese and work forward the past 500 plus years. it is a very slow process and really quite a yawn. now that the russians have pegged the ruble to gold since the us sanctions, i would bet my wallet it is only a matter of time before others do the same. would not shock me at all if the euros or chinese or usa also peg to gold. the 50 year experiment with world wide fiat electric money has more ways to play out. crypto fed notes are for sure coming.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
“But foreign governments can trade reserve dollars or their national currency for some other currency at will.”

Yes, but if country X wanted to buy something (even if something other than oil, like textiles, wheat or machinery etc.) the country Y that sells it those things would want dollars. Why? Because it would need the dollars to buy oil.

But if country X and Y came to a deal on what non-dollar currency to use for their trade, then the dollar would be out of the picture.

prumbly
prumbly
3 years ago
“Why would the Brazilian soybean producer want to hold yuan, especially given that the yuan doesn’t even float?
Why would the Chinese battery producer want to hold the Brazilian Real?”
Why would a Chinese battery producer want to hold USD? Almost everything he buys or pays for is priced in RMB.
I found out an interesting thing on the Internet. It’s actually possible to convert one currency into another at places called “banks”. The Chinese battery producer can easily convert his USD (or Reals) into the RMB he actually needs at one of these “banks”.
Incidentally, so what that the RMB doesn’t (currently) float? It can be converted (for trade) quite easily these days. It is a strong, stable, currency which is all you need for trade.
Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
As long as other countries reside themselves to the fact that the US FED/Treasury can manifest, at will, US dollars, at an exponentially increasing rate forever, Then indeed; King Dollar.
The spoils of post WWII. How long can it last? King Dollar says forever. Well maybe only till WWIII.
Doesn’t inflation come with the above model in the meantime?
prumbly
prumbly
3 years ago
What’s stopping these countries from trading in other currencies? Nothing at all – why is why they are starting to do it. Mish just doesn’t get it. Expect a massive collapse in the USD within the next few years.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
At this point, he is so invested in it, that even if/when he gets it, he cannot admit it. He has to continue believing his theory, if only to save his face.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
They trade in other currencies but they immediately convert those currencies into US dollars (debt).
The reason is as I stated above. Would you rather hold Brazilian debt or US debt because holding someone’s dollars is essentially holding their debt.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Well, your Brazilian/Chinese/Russian/Indian… debt could lose value. But your US debt could literally be stolen by the US!
denker
denker
3 years ago
Lula makes Biden look brilliant. Both are commies and senile but Biden had some education way back when. Lula lost a finger on a punch press. His brains were in that digit.
Matt3
Matt3
3 years ago
What about countries desire to hold treasuries (Bonds and Bills) as a store of value? Will this change and does it matter?
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt3
Practically speaking, the only other thing to hold is European or Japanese debt.
Now you’re a country which one would you want to hold that would most likely have the best store of value AND be the least likely to default.
1) US Debt
2) European Debt
3) Japanese Debt
prumbly
prumbly
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt3
Are there such countries? Most dollar holdings are the result of trade activities, so with less trade in USD there will be less need to hold dollars.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt3
Why does the US not hold government debt of other countries as a store of value? Simple. Oil is not priced in any of those currencies.

When much of the global oil trade bypasses the dollar, the other countries will be just as inclined to hold dollars as the US is inclined to hold non-dollar currencies at present.

TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
Your answer doesn’t make sense.
If Brazil and Argentina trade with each other, even if they don’t use US dollars do you think Argentina wants to hold Brazilian debt or vice versa? The answer has nothing to do with oil. It’s all to do with the fact that both countries rightly fear the other could default / currency drop dramatically in value. That’s why even if they trade without using the US dollars, they will quickly convert any surplus into US dollars.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
They will be far less inclined to do it now, seeing how US literally stole Russia’s 300B dollar reserves.
Dr Funkenstein
Dr Funkenstein
3 years ago

It’s not like the CIA, DOD or State Department bribes foreign governments to do their bidding.

Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
From another perspective, that other countries actually contemplate such things indicates a diminishing opinion of the USA, particularly with respect to how it is depreciating its currency by massive debt. Beware of freezing foreign assets, ordering other countries around, and blowing up pipelines; you never know what might result.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
“Every night I ask myself why all countries have to base their trade on the dollar. Why can’t we do trade based on our own currencies?”
Every night? Gee, someone I need to party with …
Anyway, I propose someone fly a helicopter over the beaches of Rio and dump a bale of $US … and one of yuan … and see what currency the locals flock towards.
… SDRs … cryptos … xxxx …
King $US just chuckles … while reaching for another beer.
Avery
Avery
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Also at certain adult emporiums in Midtown. Cramer can vouch for that.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
I would say, the beachgoers would pick up both bales of $US and yuan, but prefer $US. The reason is that they could buy properties in Florida like their oligarchs have been doing, while it would be impossible in China. Put it another way, they would snatch properties from Americans ready to buy homes and the US government doesn’t give a chit, while the Chinese are looking out for their own.
Replace helicopter drop with cocaine money, and you get the whole picture.
Eighthman
Eighthman
3 years ago
What I’ve been wondering is this: suppose that two nations do a currency swap that is perfectly balanced as to trade. Completely merchantilist. The remainder of trade would be done in dollars or some other reserve currency. This way, the dollar would be diminished but still number 1 as a reserve currency. It is very difficult for me to see BRICS ever coming up with one currency.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
The event that will kill USD is when countries stop suppressing their currency values against it.
Naphtali
Naphtali
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
It would seem that those wishing to have export economies would refain from such a stop.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
This would mean they would have to stop suppressing the value of their people. For some of these countries there are truths that they do not hold to be self-evident.

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