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End of the 40-Year Bull in Debt and a “Global Depression” Threat

Discussion Topics

Please do yourself a favor and watch the video link below. Here are just some of topics discussed.

  • Possible end of the 40-year bull in debt, if so a “global depression” threat
  • Emerging Market Blowups
  • The Yen
  • Equity Markey Complacence – Bond Market Reacting to Reality of Higher Interest Rates, Equity Markets Say Prove Hikes Are Coming
  • Game of Chicken
  • Average age of Senators – No one will stand up to the Fed except Pat Toomey
  • Jay Powell knows the damage he did by saving BBB-rated bonds
  • Yield Curve Inversions – How Much Time Is There?
  • Watch currencies especially in countries importing energy
  • Inventories
  • De-globalization
  • Not going to get fiscal stimulus in this mid-term election year.
  • Housing wealth effect in reverse
  • Violent unwind of the carry trade (Yen and Euro)
  • Pension Plan Irony, Pension Plan Risk, Pension Plan Ponzi Schemes
  • Fed Pushes Legal Limits
  • Monetary policy favors the 1%
  • Extends and Pretend on Commercial Real Estate Loans, Midsize Banks Hold this Debt
  • Investment ideas: Look for Safe Municipals (not Illinois), Gold, Cash
  • Avoid value traps like discretionary spending and healthcare, wary of energy because of huge valuation runups

Two Teaser Quotes

In response to a question about the end of the 40-year bull market in bonds, Booth replied: 

I don’t do hyperbole at all, but if this really is the end, and we really are going to see real rates rise appreciably, then you are talking about a global depression.

Later in the interview, Booth commented “If you want a front row seat with popcorn, follow the EM [emerging market] space.”

YouTube Interview 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwS824WRflI

Thanks to Danielle DiMartino Booth and Francis Hunt for an amazingly informative video interview. 

It’s about an hour long, and it may be the best financial hour you spend all year. 

But I would like the final word.

Nixon Shock, the Reserve Currency Curse, and a Pending Currency Crisis

Booth commented “If you want a front row seat with popcorn, follow the EM [emerging market] space.”

Let’s tune into my September 30, 2019 post Nixon Shock, the Reserve Currency Curse, and a Pending Currency Crisis

Here are some key snips

Our Currency But Your Problem

Shortly after taking the Treasury post, Connally famously told a group of European finance ministers worried about the export of American inflation that the dollar “is our currency, but your problem.”

On August 15, 1971 Nixon directed Connally to suspend, with certain exceptions, the convertibility of the dollar into gold or other reserve assets, ordering the gold window to be closed such that foreign governments could no longer exchange their dollars for gold. He also issued Executive Order 11615, imposing a 90-day freeze on wages and prices in order to counter inflation. This was the first time the U.S. government had enacted wage and price controls since World War II.

So Much for Temporary

The move was not temporary. There have not been any restraints on deficit spending since.

Wars became easy to finance. Deficits? No problem.

In 2011, Paul Volcker, who replaced William Miller as Fed Chair in 1979, expressed regret over the abandonment of Bretton Woods.

“Nobody’s in charge,” said Paul Volcker.

Who Really Want’s Reserve Currency Status?

Despite moaning about the dollar, China does not want to have the world’s reserve currency because it implies running trade deficits in which other nations accumulate yuan reserves.

Japan and the EU (led by Germany), don’t want to have the reserve currency “advantage” either, for the same reason: An export-based, current account surplus economy is incompatible with reserve currency status.

Global Consumers of Last Resort

The US is stuck with the reserve currency because we have the largest, most open capital markets in the world, the world’s largest bond market, and a far better business climate than the EU, China, or Japan.

To ensure the US remains the curse holder, the EU and Japan have negative rates, China does not float the Yuan but props up corrupt SOEs, and Germany punishes the rest of the EU.

Currency Crisis Coming

Since the dollar is still rising (thanks to European, Japanese, and Chinese tactics), It may take even bigger US deficits before something major breaks.

On that score, both political parties in the US are poised to deliver increasing deficits as far as the eye can see.

Meanwhile, negative interest rates are destroying the European banks. For discussion of this important issue, please see In Search of the Effective Lower Bound.

A currency crisis awaits as the current path is not sustainable.

Timing and conditions of the crisis are not knowable. It can start anywhere but I suspect the EU, Japan, or China as opposed to the US.

Meanwhile, I suggest holding at least some gold.

Currency Crisis Start Where?

On September 30, 2019, I commented “Timing and conditions of the crisis are not knowable. It can start anywhere but I suspect the EU, Japan, or China as opposed to the US.”

This week, Booth commented “If you want a front row seat with popcorn, follow the EM [emerging market] space.” She’s also watching the Yen.

Those are independently arrived at positions. I rather doubt she knew who I was back then, nor was I a follower of Quill.

In the above video interview, Francis Hunt asked Booth where a crisis starts. She admitted she does not know, and that’s something I have been saying a lot recently.

It’s amazing that people actually believe they know where the Bitcoin, the Dollar, the stock market, etc. is going to go.

No one does. 

But we can say this is not an exact repeat of 2008.

Then the dollar index plunged from over 100 to 72 and hyperinflationists came out of the woodwork. Since then, the dollar index rose from 72 to 103 with gold now at $1850 (something few if any would have predicted). 

Everyone is massively concerned about inflation now. Generally, when everyone is looking one way, something else happens. 

How many are watching emerging markets and the Yen? 

Over the years I maintained a currency crisis was far more likely in Japan than the US. We will see. 

Regardless, the end of the 40-year bull market in debt does not rate to be a pretty affair.

Thanks to Danielle DiMartino Booth and Francis Hunt for an amazingly informative video interview.

Play it!

 This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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49 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
tedr01
tedr01
3 years ago
This video is freaking brilliant. Thanks for posting it!
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
4 years ago
Truly a great one Mish. I have a great deal of respect for all three of you. This is not a new idea to me. It’s something I’ve worried about for a dozen years. We always walk a very fine line between inflating bubbles and a world where all bubbles have popped. I get it.
Own tangible assets and companies that have legitimate claim to tangible assets.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
4 years ago

I always see political posts here but when there is a school shooting it goes radio silent. Hope you all are happy with 18 year old unstable boys buying AR-15s where you live.

Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
If a young man, upon attaining majority, can’t express the rage inside him with hundreds of rounds of rifle ammo and a room full of children, is that young man truly free?
Dutoit
Dutoit
4 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
This phenomenon seems to exist only in US. In other countries, where there are also many weapons (Mexico, South America) in the population, this does not exist. Is it a kind of “amok” as in Asia ?
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
4 years ago
Reply to  Dutoit
If you watched the standard selection of Hollyweird movies, you would be surprised violence is so low. You know, Pentagon uses Hollyweird as a recruitment tool.
However, you might be wrong about Latin America: statistics doesn’t bear out the moderate society picture. Could be 1-on-1 is the most common form or something to do with reporting.
Anon1970
Anon1970
4 years ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Mexico is well represented on Wikipedia’s list of 50 cities with the highest homicide rates in the world. It took the five top spots in the latest list. South America is also well represented.
RonJ
RonJ
4 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. died because they were obstructed from early medical treatment for Covid-19, followed by being treated in hospital with Remdesivir, a drug that failed on safety and an anemic dose of Dexamethasone for inflammation, instead of the best corticosteroid to use, Methyprednisone with proper dosing.. That lead to to many people being placed on a ventilator, after which they died.
The other day, someone tried to gain entry to a school and was stopped. He then expressed his rage by using a motor vehicle to run down three children. Fortunately he wasn’t able to harm more.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
You don’t get Kook of the Day. Your kookery is tired. You need fresh kookery if you want the award.
RonJ
RonJ
4 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
The truth isn’t kooky at all. You didn’t dispute a thing i said. You know it is the truth.
Anon1970
Anon1970
4 years ago
If the country could not get its act together after Sandy Hook, I am not optimistic about the politicians doing any better after the latest mass shooting. There were 853 homicides in Chicago in 2021, according to heyjackass.com. Most of the victims were black and few of the perps were caught. How many of the victims did you read about in the news? I am familiar with only one case.
Dutoit
Dutoit
4 years ago
It would be interesting to find the consequences of this. At least two questions:
– Is such a rout can push the western powers to begin a (very big) war ?
– US society (and the same for western Europe) is very deeply divided. Will this exacerbate the tensions and lead to a kind of civil war ?
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
4 years ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Those are good questions that only architects of war in Ukraine can answer. In my opinion, we are dealing with the most vile creatures of human race, among whom Biden looks like a moderate.
Let’s hope, it won’t come to the point when politics completely trumps economics.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
4 years ago
This week in Bidenomics: Debt bomb
The most ominous change is ballooning federal outlays on interest
payments, given that inflation is much higher than it was last year and
interest rates are rising as a result. Net interest payments in 2021
were $352 billion, or a manageable 5.2% of all outlays. By 2032, CBO
expects net interest payments to triple to $1.2 trillion, which would be
13.4% of all outlays. That’s money the Treasury will be paying to
bondholders just for the right to borrow. It won’t finance anything for
taxpayers and will leave even less money for other programs.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
The prophecy!
Anon1970
Anon1970
4 years ago
It sounds like Weimar Germany all over again.
RonJ
RonJ
4 years ago
“Who Really Want’s Reserve Currency Status?”
I guess the U.S. government does.
El_Tedo
El_Tedo
4 years ago
Fascinating interview; thanks for posting.
Christoball
Christoball
4 years ago
Recessions are societies living within their means. Boom times are societies living within their leverage. Recessions are a healthy part of the business cycle and the ensuing Jubilees are performed through bankruptcy. Un-payable debt is discharged and is a much needed form of relief.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
4 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
Let’s jump-start the process with $10,000 gifts to pay off student’ loans.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab

A jet ski for me, thanks.

Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Nah. Just give $10,000 or $20,000 (or whatever) to everyone. Now that’s fair.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
What if debt is not dischargeable ? Should it be ? Maybe those that extended credit to people who had no income should also suffer the consequences .
Christoball
Christoball
4 years ago
That brings up a good question. It appears that student loans and back due child support are not dis-chargeable. Not sure of the mechanism that allows or disallows that under the Federal Reserve Act. Perhaps people could forfeit their worthless college degrees and surrender them to the lender in exchange for discharging their debt. I do believe that private lenders should suffer the loss if the counter party does not have sufficient equity to make the lender whole.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
4 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
That works under normal circumstances, but fails when the whole system is bankrupt. Then discharging bad choices through bankruptcy means the debt holders go bankrupt too, and the domino continues.
I am strongly convinced such situation is now.
Christoball
Christoball
4 years ago
It is what it is. Loans are contractual so lender and borrower should both know what they are getting into. Most contracts have a remedy built in so even a foreclosure is part of the contract. At the end of a foreclosure the contract is just as complete as if it had been paid off.
PapaDave
PapaDave
4 years ago
As one of thousands of economic prognosticators, she may be right, but its far more likely she will be wrong.
She likes municipals, cash and gold. Grantham and Dalio did not. That’s what makes a market.
She thinks energy is overvalued because it has runup this year. Yet it is lower valued today than 6 months ago or a year ago based on EV/CF. The sector is trading at 1.9 compared to a more traditional 8. A few of my holdings trade at 1.2-1.3. I will gladly hold my core energy position while taking advantage of my energy trading positions during this period of high volatility.
Whether she is right or wrong, the smart investor keeps their options open and looks for opportunity where it presents itself.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
The egotistical investor brags about his recent successful holdings, and never mentions his failures so that other may learn.
Anon1970
Anon1970
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
If she does not like Treasuries, she should avoid municipal BONDS as well. Debt is debt. I am in run off mode with my municipal bonds and have not bought any new ones since early 2011.
rk6
rk6
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
And yet another post harping on your oil holdings. You think your EV/CF is a static variable?
MPO45
MPO45
4 years ago
I’ve been hearing about a debt demise since I was a kid decades ago. I’ve been hearing about insolvency of government for decades too including social security. Perhaps some day it will happen but to think that governments around the world will sit around and do nothing and let it happen is reaching.
Additionally, there are 8 billion people on the planet and growing. There is a baseline of consumption now in some key countries like China and India that is larger than whole world economies were back in 1950 or 1960 and there isn’t an overabundance of production of things like food, water and energy. The aging population around the world will mean less production but growing consumption. This is a formula for sustained inflation unless some new magic technology shows up to fix this mess. Cue the Soylent Green memes.
To me, “global depression” means lower or little consumption of goods and services and that is mathematically impossible with 8+ billion humans consuming constantly and growing.
There were great points made though about investing in basic consumer goods, muni’s, dividend stocks, etc. I believe I have been making those points for some time now. I disagree about healthcare being a bad play. the world is addicted to pharmaceuticals and can’t get enough and the same for medical devices. The rest might be be a bad play, don’t really follow it.
lastly, countries with young populations will be way better off than countries with old ones.
killben
killben
4 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
“but to think that governments around the world will sit around and do nothing and let it happen is reaching”
Sri Lanka. Who knows who else. But it can happen.
When more of them go down then it sets off a domino
Anon1970
Anon1970
4 years ago
Reply to  killben
The Russian ruble collapsed in the 1990’s. The currency had a reverse split in the late 1990’s when three zeroes were lopped off the ruble.
lamlawindy
lamlawindy
4 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
There are 8 billion people on the planet and growing.”
The population is growing for now. That it will continue to grow is up for debate at this time. India’s fertility rate is now at replacement level, 2.2. China’s is below replacement level, 1.7, as is the USA’s. Indonesia is at 2.3, barely above replacement level. These top 4 populous nations make up over 1/3 of the total world population, and their stats show that population growth isn’t guaranteed.
Even relatively fecund nations have seen steep declines in fertility. Ethiopia’s rate fell from about 7 births per woman in 2000 to under 4 today. Nigeria fell from 6 to 5, and Sudan from 5.5 to 4.2. Yes, their fertility rates are still above replacement level, but the trend is still downward.
PapaDave
PapaDave
4 years ago
Reply to  lamlawindy
You are correct. The demographic trends are clear. Population is going to decline eventually because birth rates continue to drop below replacement levels throughout most of the world today. What I have not seen, is projections on when the tipping point takes place. For now, births still exceed deaths on a daily basis so world population continues to grow. But as the world ages, the death rate will eventually exceed declining births, and we will begin the process of worldwide population decline. Of course, each country will reach this point at different times. Many are already there and make up the difference with immigration.
As Grantham pointed out, this will cause many problems as well as provide solutions to many problems. To me this screams opportunity. Because that’s what problems present to those willing to recognize them. I will be looking for the investment opportunities that arise.
Though this is not a big area of focus for me yet, as demographic changes take decades to have a big impact.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Anything that reduces the need for competent human labor will be in high demand
PapaDave
PapaDave
4 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Yes. Shortages of labor, skilled or unskilled. A problem that provides an opportunity.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Apparently Ethiopia, Nigeria and Sudan will have sufficient population growth to support their continued export well into the future.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
4 years ago
Danielle’s concern is a result of the 60 year interest rate cycle. It’s ~40 years old and ready to hit another historic peak in 20 years.
lamlawindy
lamlawindy
4 years ago

Considering the debt+demographics of Japan, predicting that problems will start there is a pretty good bet.

tedr01
tedr01
4 years ago
A great post and interview but frightening information. We borrowed our way into a depression.
Thank you for posting the video Mike.
PreCambrian
PreCambrian
4 years ago
(Most) Everyone blames China, the Fed, the other political party, or unpatriotic American business for the hollowing out of our industrial base. The biggest cause is the reserve currency “advantage” that the US has. Without this advantage the Fed wouldn’t even be able to set rates as low as it did.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
4 years ago
I am really digging Danielle’s “Lilly Munster” look.
Good interview too, by the way.
Nuddernoitall
Nuddernoitall
4 years ago
Well worth my time. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Your summary (recap) of the hour video was also spot on.
Sunriver
Sunriver
4 years ago
40 years = Allot of Debt. Unpayable of course.
A big thank you to the Boomer echo known as the Millennial generation.
1)Municipal Bonds
2)Consumer Staples with Dividends
3)Precious Metals <– I’m still waiting on this one Mish
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
4 years ago
Excellent use of my Friday afternoon. Thank you.
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
4 years ago
All of the economic problems we have toiled with and that are about to get worse unless we change the monetary paradigm which will resolve them immediately, empirically, mathematically and continuously with a 50% discount/rebate policy at retail sale. It will integrate the best aspects and dearest wishes of the left/right/libertarian perspectives. DO THE MATH….on the macro-economic deflationary effect, the doubling of purchasing power and so then potential demand. Please don’t be an orthodox idiot of whatever perspective…just solve problems. That’s my motto.
Naphtali
Naphtali
4 years ago
I think I hear the fat lady gargling in her dressing room.

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