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Expect a Long But Shallow Recession With Minimal Unemployment Rise

Nonfarm Payrolls and Employment Levels from BLS, chart by Mish

Despite fantasy soft landing theories by the Fed, president Biden, and Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, a Recession Has Clearly Started

Some say it’s too early to make the call and jobs are too strong. Others say it takes two quarters of negative GDP.

However, it doesn’t take two quarters of negative GDP. The NBER is the official arbiter of recessions and the committee looks at a variety of factors. 

The NBER’s definition emphasizes that a recession involves a significant decline in economic activity that is spread across the economy and lasts more than a few months. In our interpretation of this definition, we treat the three criteria—depth, diffusion, and duration—as somewhat interchangeable. That is, while each criterion needs to be met individually to some degree, extreme conditions revealed by one criterion may partially offset weaker indications from another. For example, in the case of the February 2020 peak in economic activity, the committee concluded that the subsequent drop in activity had been so great and so widely diffused throughout the economy that, even if it proved to be quite brief, the downturn should be classified as a recession.

Q: The financial press often states the definition of a recession as two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP. How does that relate to the NBER’s recession dates?

A: Most of the recessions identified by our procedures do consist of two or more consecutive quarters of declining real GDP, but not all of them. In 2001, for example, the recession did not include two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP. In the recession from the peak in December 2007 to the trough in June 2009, real GDP declined in the first, third, and fourth quarters of 2008 and in the first and second quarters of 2009. Real GDI declined for the final three quarters of 2001 and for five of the six quarters in the 2007–2009 recession.

In 2001, GDP didn’t contract for two consecutive quarters, but the NBER labeled it a recession anyway. In 2020, the recession was over in two months.

Expect Minimal Rise in Unemployment

Jobs are a lagging indicator but there are many reasons to expect a minimal rise in unemployment. 

The lead chart offers a clue why. The economy still has not recovered all of the jobs lost from the 2020 recession. 

While technology is shedding jobs, the leisure and hospitality sector still begs for employees. 

Meanwhile, the potential for Boomers to retire is very high and rising. 

Employment Levels in Retirement Age Groups 

Age 60+ Employment 

  • In 2022: 22.09 Million
  • In 2008: 13.46 Million
  • In 1999: 8.22 Million
  • In 1981: 7.21 Million

There are over 22 million people age 60 or over who are still working. We have never seen anything like this before, so don’t expect prior recessions to be a model for this one.

Millions of these people will retire. Employment may drop substantially when these boomers and Gen X employees retire, but falling employment and rising unemployment are not the same thing in the Fed’s eyes.

Rise in Unemployment Rate 

Rise in Unemployment Rate Key Points 

  • In 12 previous recessions, the lowest rise in unemployment was in 1990 and 2001, 1.1 percent each. 
  • The highest jump was 8.2 percent in 2020 and that was undoubtedly understated. 

Given the pending levels of retirement and the incomplete jobs recovery from the 2020 recession, I expect this to be a very weak recession in terms of rising unemployment. 

Recession Duration in Months 

Recession Duration Key Points

  • The 2020 recession only lasted 2 months.
  • The 2008 recession lasted 18 months.

Expect Shallow and Long

I see no use in averaging the above recession jambalaya. Instead, I expect the opposite of the 2020 recession. 

2020 was very short and unprecedented steep. 2022 will be the opposite, perhaps unprecedented shallow from an unemployment standpoint.

Fed’s Hands Are Tied

The Jobs data speaks for itself. That is half of the Fed’s mandate. If jobs stay relatively strong as I expect, the Fed will have met that half of its mandate.

The Fed’s other mandate is price stability. Everyone on the planet knows the Fed flunked. It gets grade F.

The Fed does not want another grade F. It will err on the side of caution unless there is a credit event or a collapse in jobs.

Powell: “We understand better how little we understand about inflation”

Let’s review Powell’s comments at the June 29 ECB economic forum: Powell: “We understand better how little we understand about inflation”

  1. Powell: “There’s a clock running here. The risk is that because of the multiplicity of shocks, you start to transition into a higher-inflation regime. Our job is literally to prevent that from happening, and we will prevent that from happening.”
  2. Powell: “The process is highly likely to involve some pain, but the worse pain would be in failing to address this high inflation and allowing it to become persistent.”
  3. Powell: “Households are in very strong financial shape. They still have a lot of excess savings from forced savings and also fiscal transfers. The same is true of businesses. The labor market is tremendously strong. Overall the US economy is well positioned to stand tighter monetary policy.”
  4. Powell: “Is there a risk we would go too far? Certainly there’s a risk. The bigger mistake to make, let’s put it that way, would be to fail to restore price stability.”

I strongly disagree with point three except for the labor market. The other points could not possibly be more clear, even if I do not necessary agree. 

Inflation Expectations

Point #1 above is related to the idea that inflation expectations might get out of hand.

The concept is ridiculous as discussed on June 25 in The Asininity of Inflation Expectations, Once Again By Powell and the Fed.

However, Powell’s position is clear: “Our job is literally to prevent that from happening, and we will prevent that from happening.”

“The bigger mistake to make, let’s put it that way, would be to fail to restore price stability.”

Expect an Overshoot

Based on Powell’s comments. I expect the Fed to overshoot. 

Then, unless the jobs picture or credit markets go haywire, Powell will be very reluctant to step on the gas out of fear of creating another inflation cycle.

Flashback June 26, 2021

Just over a year ago, I commented Fed Will Foolishly Continue QE Purchases in Search of Higher Inflation

Here are some FOMC Statements  

  • The Committee seeks to achieve maximum employment and inflation at the rate of 2 percent over the longer run. With inflation having run persistently below this longer-run goal, the Committee will aim to achieve inflation moderately above 2 percent for some time so that inflation averages 2 percent over time and longer‑term inflation expectations remain well anchored at 2 percent. The Committee expects to maintain an accommodative stance of monetary policy until these outcomes are achieved. 
  • The Committee decided to keep the target range for the federal funds rate at 0 to 1/4 percent and expects it will be appropriate to maintain this target range until labor market conditions have reached levels consistent with the Committee’s assessments of maximum employment and inflation has risen to 2 percent and is on track to moderately exceed 2 percent for some time
  • In addition, the Federal Reserve will continue to increase its holdings of Treasury securities by at least $80 billion per month and of agency mortgage‑backed securities by at least $40 billion per month until substantial further progress has been made toward the Committee’s maximum employment and price stability goals

My June 26, 2021 Comments

The Fed either has no idea inflation is roaring if one accurately includes home prices, or it simply does not care. My take is the Fed is basically clueless.

What are the Fed and Congress going to do next with stimulus wearing off and banks choking on the Fed’s QE already?

Looking ahead, the fourth quarter and 2022 GDP and will be much weaker than most expect.

The irony in the Fed’s actions is they are indeed increasing inflation, but only in the most unproductive, yet uncounted ways. There’s plenty of inflation now, just not as they measure it.

And when bubbles burst, expect another painful round of asset deflation, likely accompanied by the price deflation they fear.

I accidentally ran into that post yesterday while looking for something else. I then made a few Tweets about it. 

Inflation of Deflation?

We will have another round of asset deflation, in fact, it’s started. 

Whether that leads to CPI-measured inflation is another question. But if you properly throw housing into the equation it sure seems likely. 

Regardless, It’s asset-price deflation that matters, not routine CPI-price deflation.

Historical Perspective on CPI Deflations: How Damaging are They?

Please see Historical Perspective on CPI Deflations: How Damaging are They?

A BIS study concluded “Deflation may actually boost output. Lower prices increase real incomes and wealth. And they may also make export goods more competitive.”

BIS: “Once we control for persistent asset price deflations, persistent goods and services (CPI ) deflations do not appear to be linked in a statistically significant way with slower growth even in the interwar period.”

Here We Go Again

The central bank battle against routine and beneficial CPI deflation has once again created another set of bubbles.

Those bubbles are bursting now, causing very asset bubble deflation that central banks ought to have feared in the first place. 

No White Hats 

There will be no Fed posse to the rescue this time.  For four decades the Fed had disinflationary winds of globalization at it back. It could easily step on the gas without starting an inflation spiral.

That changed in 2020. The Fed now has inflationary winds of de-globalization and wars blowing in its face. Labor pressures also remain inflationary. 

The Fed knows it made a mistake and will be very reluctant to repeat it.

What About the Stock Market?

Look at things this way: We have energy shocks, wage pressures, a supply chain mess, earnings estimates that remain ridiculously high, and a Fed that is likely to overshoot. Don’t expect the Fed to come to the rescue.

Finally, we have an inept president pushing unions and promoting clean energy policies that are very inflationary. 

Even if the recession isn’t long, this is a very nasty brew. The economy rates to be weak, perhaps flirting with recession for a long time. 

So expect a disaster in the stock market. We are not close to the bottom. 

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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126 Comments
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Counter
Counter
3 years ago
We came out of a recession in 2020 while people were staying home. Retirees are spending their savings. More money is going in than coming out. Intentionally bumping inflation during a crisis. An energy strategy that uses more energy than produces and inadvertently causes more harm than good.
Ethanol fuel from corn faulted as ‘unsustainable subsidized food burning’ in analysis by Cornell scientist August 6, 2001
One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. “Put another way,” Pimentel says, “about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU.
Why renewables can’t save the planet | Michael Shellenberger | TEDxDanubia
Michael Shellenberger explains why solar and wind farms require so much land for mining and energy production, and an alternative path to saving both the climate and the natural environment. Michael Shellenberger is a Time Magazine Hero of the Environment and President of Environmental Progress, a research and policy organization.
LawrenceBird
LawrenceBird
3 years ago
I know a number of individuals who started collecting early on social security who do not work because of the limits on income (limit is $1,630 per month or $19,560 per
year in 2022 for someone who has not reached full retirement age.) So eventhough they would like to take part time jobs, they will make too much and do not want to pay $1 for every $2 they earn above that limit. Raising that to a more reasonable number or eliminating it all together would see a lot of near retired people jump back in.
Counter
Counter
3 years ago
Reply to  LawrenceBird
I know people who took their social security the beginning of the year and retire a couple months later because of that
TechLover1
TechLover1
3 years ago
I feel there will be another fiscal stimulus aimed at small businesses during this recession. Small business is something both R and D can support and it is a huge constituency of Rs. Small businesses are extremely stressed right now and they will be squeezed further with wage inflation and raw material inflation.
None of the parties want to see a huge wave of failures in small businesses as that will cause long term damage to employment (over half of US employees are on payroll of small businesses).
This is a very feasible way things will play out and something rare where the parties can collaborate and pass something. Tons of small businesses are already closing as a result of end of stimulus and inflation woes.
Thoughts?
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TechLover1
I’d be quite surprised if that happens, given what’s coming in the midterm elections.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
The constitution didn’t mention abortion, medicare and social security. The gov might dump it to your state.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Not the final two of those.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
3 years ago
“So expect a disaster in the stock market…”
And with interest rates likely already at their cycle peak, pray tell where is the money going to come from to pay pensions out of plans that are already severely underfunded?
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
Topic for another day, but there needs to be pension reform.
6 figure annual payouts are a dime a dozen.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Pension Reform = “Sorry, but here’s all that we can actually afford to pay you” = More deflation.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Dirty little secret about pension funds. ERISA grants complete discretion to change the terms without recourse under federal law. State law for the gov’t pensions is another matter.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Aww! Is there nothing in the financial world that isn’t what it seems? Personally, I think the whole financial system (wall Street, banks, insurance, the works) need to be completely dismantled and reassembled properly. Disclaimer: Because of my time in the financial field, I now consider Wall Street to be one of the greatest threats we face. It’s far more corrupt, and works far differently than you think. But it has done a fine job of sucking up small town money!
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
I don’t care whether it’s Social Security, a state government worker pension fund, or a private pension fund. In the end, all of those things rest on the broad economy. If the economy works out, the pension plans will probably be okay at least if they’re not totally screwed up by design. If the economy doesn’t work out, none of those edifices are safe, Wall Street or no Wall Street.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Pension plans run properly by the state. Or a giant corporation that’s got deep pockets in D.C.. Sure, it could happen! I’m sure their concerns for the supposed beneficiaries are first and foremost in their minds! Oops! Sorry, not the biggest fan of politicians.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
People think there are guarantees, as if they exist independently of what funds them.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
The only guarantee that people should expect out of any “regulated” financial instrument is that somebody not listed got paid.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
Now that right there is a really good question. How about consolidating all pensions (including Federal) into Social Security? Don’t like that idea? States sell assets and lease back to meet their commitments? End all pension programs with one terminal payment? Means test all pensions (and Social Security). Tax 401Ks as appropriate? /sarc
Of course, your assumption that rates are at a cycle peak might not hold. Pension program yields might average 10% a year. Cows might not contribute to global climate change: also /sarc
This is what happens when the Fed controls…
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Means testing SS would not surprise me. They already partly are, 85% of SS is taxable as regular income if you are reasonably well off.
Regular IRAs and 401ks are taxable as regular income, Roths are the obvious target. The Left never liked them. A stroke of the pen created the Roth, a second stroke of another pen could turn it into a traditional IRA with a basis of your after tax contributions and conversions.
That would create no end of yelling. 😉
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
If the Democrats had their way, they’d race-test it. Really, they would. I used to be a Democrat, but I left those nutcases 8 years ago.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
You don’t need to be reasonably well off to be hit by the SS 85% test.
Unless you’re living in a van down by the river.
SS wasn’t taxable until 1983, when with the stroke of a pen it became taxable.
Gee, just before 1984 and the “memory hole.”
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
3 years ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
The Fed may be at an interest rate peak, but the longer term 60 year interest rate cycle has 20 years remaining until it hits its peak. This is a naturally occurring cycle. Civil War, radio, electrification, automobiles, airplanes, landing a man on the moon, and 2 World Wars have not altered its cycles.
DEFLATION and rising interest rates may coexist when default risk exceeds inflation risk.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
There is a recession but the construction of new manufacturing facilities in the US has increased 116% in the last year and those reshoring efforts will continue. Companies are scrambling to shorten their supply lines and the money they are spending will tend to support the economy as well as create jobs.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Might take a hiatus.
Capex takes a beating during a recession.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
For manufacturing companies there probably won’t be a slowdown. For them the risk of not reshoring is too great a risk to take. The international climate with covid, the Russian-Ukraine war and the China uncertainties make any company CEO with lots of plants overseas in risky places wake up in terror in the night. For service companies that probably is a different story because by nature they are already onshore and going into a recession with too many offices, too many employees and not enough clients.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
We’ll see.
I agree with your premise mid to long term.
I think recession + strong $US (making imports cheap) will put things on hold (for some).
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
for manufacturing companies the price of the necessary imports to keep their companies running is less important that being sure that those parts can really be delivered and on time. Many products now can be made more cheaply in the Nafta community than in SE Asia and other areas of the world.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Significant reshoring is unlikely in the current business environment. What is likely, and seems to be happening, is decentralized offshore manufacturing, ie. multiple countries manufacturing in lieu of China. This was an outcome of Trump’s tariffs–it gave other countries a chance to compete against China.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Probably needed after 12 years of Fed-subsidized interest rates. First, though, there will be an ‘adjustment’ for all those lousy investments undertaken at marginal IRRs
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Yes ! wall street sent them down to buy at 50% discount
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Sometime you speak in a cryptic manner.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
And, Doug, a lot of those new lights-out manufacturing facilities will save a lot on electricity, to say nothing of few employees.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
I am sure they will. Less light and less heat is bound to save enough to cut the electricity bill substantially. The manufacturing renaissance going on is fascinating.
dtj
dtj
3 years ago
Economies are collapsing all over the world. See Germany and Sri Lanka. I don’t see how the United States escapes a collapse. I hate to be a doom and gloomer but I think this is the collapse of the mother of all bubbles which means depression, not recession.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  dtj
Only time will tell if adding zeroes to the debt bomb is a problem. Faux debt is created without prior real production. Real savings accrue as the excess of real income over consumption. Real debt has real value and requires a compensating interest rate. I suspect we will find out if it matters at some point.
effendi
effendi
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I’m with dru on his concerns. Germany is in a right mess with high energy costs and shortages thrashing industrial production. I doubt if Europes powerhouse is alone in that predicament. So if Europe enters a depression how will the US avoid one?
Lots of countries will default, Lots if banks will collapse or need bailouts. Interest rates are rising. Stock markets will decline and companies will slash dividends. Lots of older (or jabbed) folk leaving the workforce and cutting their expenditure. Higher power and grocery bills leave less spare money for leisure and dining out. Etc etc. So how could the recession just be shallow with all those problems?
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Mish, SPX weekly, log, 2Y Lazer : Feb 17 2004 to May 1 2006 highs // parallel from Apr 18 2005 low. On June 13/2022 SPX
got support from the Lazer and bounced back up. Options : 1, 2 3…infinity. // We don’t know what will happen next. In order to reach 2016 low, this Lazer have to be breached
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
What is “Lazer?” Financial term search yielded nothing.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
The biggest thrust of baby boomers were born after victorious soldiers came from the war and mommies stayed home. In the early 2030’s
the front end will enter their mid eighties. Their number will shrink, that’s the reality.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
I hope you did that on purpose.
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
Why are still talking about a recession? We all know what comes after a bear market. We should be talking about the timing of the next bull run.
Did you notice that oil has dropped to $98
The Treasury Yield 10 Year looks like it’s doing the same thing over the past 3 weeks. When looking at the 10y in a logarithmic chart, is been declining in a channel since 1981. It just recently tried to break out and now looks like it’s failing.
Based on a logarithmic chart, the S&P has been trading in a channel since 2008 and just tried to breakout and failed. It’s falling right back into place. If it does, it might be the soft landing JP is hoping for.
No point in trying to catch a falling knife but I think we should start thinking about thinking of a the end of a recession.
Nasty Edwin
Nasty Edwin
3 years ago
Reply to  Billy
This recession has just gotten started. Treasury’s are a flight to safety. Always have been in bear market. I disagree with Mish on this one. Job losses will be severe. I believe debt is too much a factor in all aspects of society. Look for austerity going forward, especially after elections.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Nasty Edwin
Mish might also be right. Boomers retiring is a big factor. Also, I strongly suspect (no data to support, yet) that labor productivity decreased with Covid, and is still low. We could have reduced GNP without high unemployment.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
If they can retire. The vast majority can’t.
effendi
effendi
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
If the vast majority can’t retire then they are in a financial tight spot. High rents, high energy, high grocery bills means many are using up the cash they might have saved in the lockdown and might now be hitting their credit cards. The wealth effect of rising stock and bitcoin prices is gone. So what will cause the coming recession not to be long and hard with stagflation in the mix.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  effendi
When you consider the fearless leaders of the richest nations are making the worst decisions possible, with nearly instantaneous global consequences, I’d say nothing is stopping us from far worse. Food, fuel, and rent are definitely 3 areas that can have a major political impact far beyond the economic.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
There are 22 million
Might not 3 million retire? 5?
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I think, at the very least, that everyone should widen the error allowance in real-economy measurements since early ’20. I’m not alleging any kind of skulduggery. I am saying that the virus, and the response, could have impacted all of the measurements. I suspect that unemployment is currently understated. Not because some evil Biden admin functionary messed with the Bureau of Labor Statistics, but because participation rates might’ve been skewed. Also, what about the personnel in those offices? You know, the people who operate the survey machinery? Not to mention the corporate personnel who communicate the numbers to the BLS.
Anything that marks to market every day is almost certainly exempt from the above. To my knowledge, no markets ever locked up because of covid. Still, people should allow for more error in the data. If the American “news” media hadn’t been committing suicide for the last decade, we’d have some boring, fascinating, detailed analysis of this issue. But it’s so much easier to write the 273rd “January 6 threat to democracy” screed than to write something that might go either way.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Billy
“it might be the soft landing JP is hoping for.”
JP Morgan?
The same JP Morgan calling for $380 oil?
What clowns … I have oil (wti) < $50 barrel at some point.
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Jerome Powell
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  Billy
Timing of the next bull market – wait until the end of the year and think about it
We are not close to the bottom yet
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
I agree. If we apply the “five stages of grief,” I’d reverse the order of “anger” and “bargaining,” and suggest that people are starting to exit denial, and some are now bargaining. When the crash really hits, there’ll be panic in the suites and anger, i.e. rioting, on the streets. Then depression, at which point it will be time to get back in. Not even close yet, IMO.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Billy
I wish magic ‘patterns’ were actually useful predictors; forecasting would be so much easier. That said, there are fundamentals, trends, and cycles reflecting economic factors, and even behavioral factors. They are useful in understanding the multiplicity of factors at work.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
And usually you find out that you guessed wrong on what that technical factor meant right after you put money into it!
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
The 75 millions boomers are retiring and will live off of their savings, pensions and SS. That will be a drag on the economy but the boomers are not immortal and a certain number will die off each year. By dying off they will no longer be a drain for sure but by dying off their offspring (or their cats and dogs if single) will be inheriting unspent money plus real estate that is worth a lot of money these days in most places. That will suddenly change for the better the financial positions of the following generation.
Carl_R
Carl_R
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Baby boomers retiring and living off savings will also put pressure on the stock market.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Like now?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
The goal is to leave no unspent money and a maximum of unpaid debts.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Worldwide recession and oil prices collapse.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Mish, your long term target is < 2016 low, under 1,800. Can we get there with a prolong shallow recession.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Why not?
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
For the S&P to hit 1,800 there will have to be the sort of steep earnings drops that are always accompanied by layoffs, which cascade. I’m not blowing off your prediction, but I think it might be too sanguine.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
“The lead chart offers a clue why. The economy still has not recovered all of the jobs lost from the 2020 recession.”
It’s very close, so it’s not even worth noting as a criteria for whether or not a recession is underway.
“There are over 22 million people age 60 or over who are still working. We have never seen anything like this before, so don’t expect prior recessions to be a model for this one. Millions of these people will retire.”
Absolutely, 100% agreed. The follow-up question is with persistently high inflation looming for the next 2-3 years how will this affect this age group in terms of actual retirement rates? I think it’s reasonable to assume that the COVID-based retirees are 95% over. Higher inflation should mean lower retirement rates, at least for the next 12-24 months.
“The bigger mistake to make, let’s put it that way, would be to fail to restore price stability.”
In a persistenly high fossil fuel global economy with supply chain issues leading to de-globalization, the Fed very limited control over these inputs into inflation. Yes, this time it’s very different. I think just about everyone who reads your articles agrees with that theory.
To end, after reading your final points, I just don’t see how you’d expect minimal job losses. Now granted, nowhere in your article did I see you make a prediction about how high unemployment will get. What is minimal? 5-6% or even less? I know that’s a very hard prediction to make at this point, but I’ll go out on a limb and say work from home, white-collar jobs are very much at risk. After that, who knows.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Those help-wanted signs are about as durable and as substatial as a shallow pond in Death Valley in July. Everyone will be shocked at how fast this dries up.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I believe all these supposedly unfilled 10-11M jobs are mostly for new positions for companies to grow their businesses. As the recession takes hold, those jobs will go POOF without anyone really being let go.
Personally, I wish Mish & Wolf Richter would make “reasonable” or even conservative predictions like:
“2022 will be the opposite, perhaps unprecedented shallow from an unemployment standpoint.” Then go on to say, “My best guestimate is that unemployment will rise to 5-6%.”
What does “unprecedented shallow” mean? Less than 1.1%? If so, how could what appears in layman’s terms the mother of all perfect storm recessions end with maybe a 1% rise in unemployment?
Don’t get it.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Shallow – 1%
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Got it! Thanks for drawing an actual line in the sand. Time will tell. Kudos!
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Killing asset prices without killing employment? Seems like a neutron bomb. Color me skeptical. We shall see.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I agree the help wanted signs vanish – But that’s not firing
Reduced hours first
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
I’m skeptical that the unfilled positions are growth drivers. I also think unemployment is about 1.5% higher than the official numbers say. Not because of manipulation or fraud, but because the virus and its effect have screwed up the data. We shall see.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
agree the unemployment rate is artificially low
Why would that change?
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
What’s the definition of a hard landing vs soft landing? If a recession is going to be long and shallow with few job losses, isn’t that a soft landing?
Market in a bloodbath today and the Fed doesn’t meet for a few more weeks. Holding on cash until the fed stops hiking.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
The market channels are weirdly fascinating and at times borderline hilarious in a dark comedy sense. The underlying assumption seems to be that this is all going to be manageable. Every real recession goes through a panic phase where nothing seems to work. All of these soothing certainties are going to be tossed out the window. Until they are, there’ll still be downside. There will be that epileptic in the swimming pool moment. It’s a necessary phase.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
The 2008 recession was long and ‘shallow’ compared to what it could have been without the Fed’s involvement. At the time, there was ‘space’ for the Fed to lower interest rates and inject ‘cash’ to stimulate a recovery, of sorts. I am not sure this will happen in 2022-23. Some factors: already high Federal and corporate debt, govt spending out of control, many investments made with low IRR likely to induce a flood bankruptcies, US labor still not $ competitive in the global market… Also, this time around has all the markings of being a global recession.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Interesting take on unemployment. My lizard brain says it’s going to be a lot worse, but the counterargument is strong — that the Fed will blink, and we’re in for a long period of stagflation.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Mish,
Have you included decreased tax receipts and increased gov’t payments with boomers retiring? Continuing high deficits will likely result without substantive changes in gov’t spending, which would be difficult in an extended recession.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
My guess is death taxes will ramped up to get at more money including taxing trust funds.
One way to get a lot of money is to ‘commit’ a senior to a nursing home and then confiscate the house and other assets to pay for that nursing home.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Or make Roth IRAs taxable. Oops, sorry.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Powell: “Households are in very strong financial shape. They still have a
lot of excess savings from forced savings and also fiscal transfers.”
If one is filthy rich, maybe. Seems most people are complaining about what inflation is doing to them. Powell is one of those who has no care in the world about inflation doing anything to him.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
There is energy clogging, Long Beach and Savanna clogging, airport clogging. veins and arteries clogging, jobs clogging…
Our brains are badly clogged.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Some brains more than others. I flush mine regularly with vodka and ginger beer.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Nickel City Clogging Festival is on April 22-23 at the Double Tree Hotel at 401 Buffalo Avenue, Niagara Falls, NY
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
There are about 75 millions boomers, whatever. They will be phase out. Gen Z will benefit from lower rent and lower RE prices.
Their current 22 millions jobs might be unfulfilled, but it doesn’t matter. U cannot fire old people.They clog the pyramid below.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
The Prep Act phased out one group of boomers.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Fire old people first.
Just make it look good.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
“While technology is shedding jobs, the leisure and hospitality sector still begs for employees.”
Forget learning to code. It’s time to learn to wait tables and/or wash sheets 😉
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Who could have guessed the bed making skills I learned in boot camp would be marketable some day.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
Apparently more valuable than being able to reassemble an M16 blindfolded.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Don’t overlook the used condoms on the nightstand!
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Repackage them and sell them.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I have seen some full restaurants mostly filled by seniors, and wondered what was happening. Inflation has clearly crept into the menus.
It must be the wealth effect created by all those house millionaires.
Dr. Gotee-Sharletone
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
We are in high tourist season where we live. I think I’ve noticed that the restaurants aren’t as full as they mormally are at this time of year, but I’m going to observe more closely and ask around.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Now packed in touristville, where I am, but some of the bottom-feeder restaurants have gone out of business with Covid.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Seniors normally get nice discounts and many eat early (the famed Blue plate special) for even more discounts.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Correct
WATERWIZ
WATERWIZ
3 years ago
“The labor market is tremendously strong”. In the past 2 decades the US population has increased by over 50 million to over 330 million. But the workforce has remained near160 million. The extra 50 million are not working ??? Shumshing is mishing here ?
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  WATERWIZ
It’s called retiring boomers and a population that’s living longer on average than ever before.
This is why social security is in trouble because there are far fewer workers to support the retirees.
Note this says nothing about productivity which has most definitely risen in the past 20 years even though there are the same number of people working.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  WATERWIZ
shadow stats has the best take on true enemployment. so many “workers” gave up long ago. raygunomics outsourced jobs using massive amounts of debt………all the rest of our presidents followed this formula. thank heavens for the immigrants, or we’d be in a tailspin.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Those numbers are well captured by U-4, U-5, and U-6, the wider unemployment rates measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Reaganomics per se did NOT outsource jobs. The debt increase occurred because Democrats in the House (Tip O’Neill) would not approve Reagan’s tax legislation (for example, to encourage investment with accelerated depreciation) without increased spending.
The people ‘outsourced’ by buying Japanese products.
A far bigger problem was Bill Clinton giving most-favored-nation status to China.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  WATERWIZ
The labor participation rate increased after WW2, and has been decreasing since 2000.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  WATERWIZ
By 2030, there will be 70 million people eligible or on social security and medicare. Most won’t be working but they will be consuming. It is the largest crisis in the US and possible on the earth that few talk about.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
A series of pandemics could take care of the problem. Hollywood TV workers are already back to having to wear masks indoors again, in Los Angeles.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
As if we needed another reason to avoid California. LOL
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
No need what with so many perfectly healthy, and vaccinated!, are starting to just drop dead for no apparent reason.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
We don’t discuss the SS and Medicare promises because that is too frightening.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Okay, other than the stock market, I feel unqualified to state anything else with any degree of certainty. However, I haven’t worked in the financial field since 25 June 2003. That was the day I walked out of it forever. I also believe it has not gotten any less corrupt since then, and has long ceased to follow any reality I live in. If it weren’t for the FED and the Plunge Protection Team in the Treasury, would it even exist? But in the rest of the picture, I have many questions. How does the extreme slowdowns in demand for products outside of rent, gas, and food, affect the recession? I’m not talking domestically, but from the standpoint of imports. And how they affect those countries importing to us. That would seem to have a big bearing on our economy to me. Also, a lot of those boomers are not very secure financially; so just how many of them are going to be able to retire? Do you really think a significant amount of boomers have enough saved? And will jobs really be that stable if there is no demand in so many sectors? These are some of the questions I have. Would appreciate any illumination here! Thanks, Jim
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
I expect some people retired (early) due to 401K gains (and residence appreciation).
I foresee evaporation in wealth and some deciding to re-enter the work force (at least try to, which will boost participation rate affecting employment rate). Why I think UE rate may end up higher than expected from just job losses.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Good point on the 401Ks. Pensions will also be affected by stock/bond markets, so many will need to keep working.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Pensions are guaranteed. Or at least the government ones are. Private pensions barely exist anymore and haven’t for a long time and the people who are getting them are too old to work now (mostly in their late 60s and beyond).
Gator Break
Gator Break
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
Good video to you retirement question …
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  Gator Break
Could only watch about half of it. Nothing new for me. My clients as a Financial Planner were generally pretty well off. While the business owners were usually able to fund their own retirement; those with the employee mindset seldom were able to do so. Regardless of income level. I got bored of his infomercial about half way. Those findings were already well understood by me. My question about retirement was biased because of those, and many other, reasons. I don’t think most baby boomers can retire. Most have either had no desire, or no ability. The rest have either been unable to put much into their retirements, or chose to underfund them. Though I am using the retirement model, I actually encourage people to invest in themselves far more than any retirement vehicle. But I can work with this model. At any rate, that half that has prepared, hasn’t done a very good job of it for various reasons. I don’t see them retiring voluntarily. But I do appreciate the link. He pretty much reiterated what I already knew from experience. Unfortunately, that sure doesn’t help me to understand why anyone will think there’s going to be some massive retirement shift out of the boomers. Maybe a dying shift, but that’s a bit harsh to call a retirement matter. Thanks, Jim
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
Good questions about retirement. Foolish is the person who has a fixed plan in the face of fast shifting sands.
Once you leave your last job, good luck getting back.
Those who joke about waiting tables, haven’t been to a restaurant in the last decades. Plenty of good looking youth to compete with.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
While I would agree with you on the foolishness of relying upon a fixed plan; there are many who had no choice. Plenty of ways that the government has discouraged prosperity for so many of us. Taxes being the elephant in the room. Not only do you work half the year to pay them, regardless of filing status you are still paying the property taxes of your landlord, sales tax, etc. But what else is the cost of that tax? In terms of delayed or missed entirely investments those taxes harm us all immensely. I imagine a lot of people would have a lot more money set aside for the future if they didn’t work half the year just to pay some government slob. One could argue the educational system has failed us by not addressing such things, but I would disagree on that. I think it worked out just as planned. It’s producing plenty of people who are just smart enough to pick things up and put them down without ever once questioning authority. Also, once again, I don’t view retirement as a goal worthy of achieving. Maybe for the possibility of achieving, but retirement equals death in my book. Not trying to force my viewpoint on it on anyone, that’s just me. This is obviously a truncated response, as I don’t want to bore everyone any more than I have already with my opinions! Thanks, Jim
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
$US King Kong
dxy > 106
$US near parity with euro (20 year high)
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Interest rate differentials.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
Or is that really a new low for the euro? Don’t really know, but it seems as viable a way of looking at it as anything else in this clown world.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
I think it’ll be the low since the euro really became a true currency in wide use.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
The European countries starting in 1972 had a coordination of their their currencies. It was called at the time the “European Snake”. I you follow that chart you see that the dollar has been much stronger than now.
Esclaro
Esclaro
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
No one seems to recognize the fact that the USD is going to ANNIHILATE American exports and send imports through the roof. The dollar index is pushing 107 today – when it hits 120 the entire world economy will be in the worst depression we have ever seen. This is a train wreck coming.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Esclaro
You nailed it.
Strong $US a disinflationary / deflationary blast for US … inflationary carnage elsewhere.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Esclaro
The yen at 135-136 makes me want to think about that Lexus. LOL
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Nah. Import a Toyota Land Cruiser J70 in which to run for the hills.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
“Expect Shallow and Long”
Pretty much the exact words of Bill McBride (Calculated Risk) going into 2008 recession.
I’m filing this with your (approx) millions of shipping jobs will be lost by early 2020’s due to autonomous vehicles.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
awesome analysis. i prefer the old terms in economics. i refer to the panic of 2007/8. people panic. we all do. who cares is some neo lib government sponsored entity or television station declares a recession or not. almost, everyone on the planet is in panic, in one form or another. especially after the global plague lockdown……….and wars…….
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Agreed, panic is setting it. Still no scramble for the exits yet, since everyone expects the Fed to save the day.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
If the market shows are any indicator, I think we’re on the cusp of denial and bargaining. Not even close to panic/anger. At the top, it’s “this time is different.” Saw a lot of that, even recently. At the bottom, it’s “we’re doomed.” None of that just yet other than from the people who are always saying that.

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