Facebook has banned hate speech for you and me. But the line vanishes if it goes through its pocketbook.
Please consider Hate-Speech Rules Collide With Indian Politics.
In Facebook posts and public appearances, Indian politician T. Raja Singh has said Rohingya Muslim immigrants should be shot, called Muslims traitors and threatened to raze mosques.
Yet Mr. Singh, a member of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Hindu nationalist party, is still active on Facebook and Instagram, where he has hundreds of thousands of followers. The company’s top public-policy executive in the country, Ankhi Das, opposed applying the hate-speech rules to Mr. Singh and at least three other Hindu nationalist individuals and groups flagged internally for promoting or participating in violence, said the current and former employees.
Ms. Das, whose job also includes lobbying India’s government on Facebook’s behalf, told staff members that punishing violations by politicians from Mr. Modi’s party would damage the company’s business prospects in the country, Facebook’s biggest global market by number of users, the current and former employees said.
Facebook Markets
Social Lines vs Bottom Lines
Facebook says it doesn’t tolerate efforts to use its platforms to instigate violence anywhere in the world. Chief Executive Mark Zuckerberg has been trying to reassure employees and advertisers in the U.S. that the company won’t let its platform be used to incite violence or interfere with the democratic process.
“People should be able to see what politicians say” on Facebook, Mr. Zuckerberg said in May when asked about President Trump’s online activity, but “there are lines, and we will enforce them.”
Line Enforcement Explained
If you impact Facebook’s bottom line you can say Muslim immigrants should be shot, Muslims are traitors, and you can threaten to raze mosques.
If a politician from a country that did not impact Facebook’s bottom line made the same statement, it would have been erased, and the politician banned.
If you impact the bottom line, you have no social lines.
My Position
I am in favor of free speech until it gets to the point of inciting violence.
Similarly, can one cannot yell “fire” in a movie theater.
T. Raja Singh is indeed guilty of inciting violence. He should be banned from Facebook and arrested.
Mish
Indian here. The hate here for Christians is also mind boggling. Funny thing is we’d be the first to cry out racism if any Hindu is discriminated against in a western country but turn a blind eye when it happens to non hindus in our country, a lot of fake news and media propaganda is also to blame for distorting facts.
There’s this inferiority complex of the British and Afghans conquering us with ease so there’s this silly revenge fetish which conveniently goes away when we want to migrate abroad Lol. Their arguments fall flat when you explain even people who don’t follow your religion are still born in this country and equal citizens.
There is no such thing as hate speech. It is a fallacy created by liberals to justify attempting to silence points of view they do not agree with. Screaming racism or hate speech is simply the left attempting to implement tyranny by claiming moral justification they do not have.
“I am in favor of free speech until it gets to the point of inciting violence.”
With privileged regime-sycophantic mediocrities empowered to “deem” and “find” and “decide” what constitutes “inciting violence”, of course….
Facebook is who-cares. It’s its own closed ecosystem.
But as far as enforced “law” goes, unless “inciting violence” bans FDR from speaking up for invading Europe, it’s nothing but yet another excuse for totalitarian regimes’ arbitrary harassment of people.
Also, back when America retained some pretense of being a civilized country, there was no ban on shouting fire in a theater….
I think Mish should not talk about religion. If you dont understand what other people faced you should not talk about it. The term “in their shoes” is more important than what you think happens in your Brain. Facebook even allows christians and Muslims talking shit about Hindus why dont you see that. India is not like US, christians oppress other religions here. In India Hindus are oppressed by Christians and Muslims. Check what happened in bangaluru because of twitter words between muslims and hindus.
People know how this works, because it is a recurrent theme almost everywhere. The UK was invaded by romans, they left, it was then invaded by Vikings and Anglo-Saxons, they never left. Even earlier than those was a mass replacement event as far as can be discerned.
That doesn’t stop people trying to gain new influence or emphasise existing influence. In India it is maybe even more complex because of the history, and religion, and regional/global politics. So you get put in a maybe false dichotomy, like do you prefer Chistians or arabs, western finance or communism etc.
It’s not fun, especially now with the level of external influence enjoyed by media and global pursuits.
Germany has freedom of the press. It has freedom of speech and yet they’ve also banned hate speech. They have a law , Volksverhetzung. The U.S. should have the same. It’s not perfect but it solves more problems than it poses.
Volksverhetzung, in English “incitement of the masses”, “instigation of the people” (the official English translation of the German Criminal Code uses “incitement to hatred”[1][2]), is a concept in German criminal law that refers to incitement to hatred against segments of the population and refers to calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them, including assaults against the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population.[
Facebook moderators should take down any post that is riddle with conspiracy non-sense too.
“Germany has freedom of the press. It has freedom of speech and yet they’ve also banned hate speech”
No different from North Korea, then. North Korea also has freedom of speech, as long as some robed regime sycophant doesn’t arbitrarily “deem”, “find”, “consider” and “feel” it is “hate speech” (or whatever else it is that uncritical dittoheads are being told makes it a-ok, and PC, to walk all over people’s God given freedoms these days….)
You’re comparing North Korea and Germany?
Looking for denial ?
Their protections for freedom of speech, are ultimately not very different, it seems. Both being entirely up to arbitrary deeming and finding and feeling by the ruling junta. Nothing stopping the German one, from deeming “climate change denial” the equivalent of “Holocaust denial” or what have you.
For Freedom of Speech to ultimately mean anything at all, it needs to refer to freedom of speech: As in, non-interference: No presumption that the junta understands the language people are speaking. As in: The Junta does not presume to understand what the sounds emanating from holes in people’s head, even mean. Much less care what they may mean.
Once you move away from that, “freedom of speech” is just another way of saying “arbitrary restrictions on speech.” Attempted excused by the same old yabuts of the “but we are nicer to our niggas than that Kim guy is to his” kind.
Germany does not have US style freedom of speech. Merkel agreed to prosecute a comedian in Germany for insulting Erdogan, Turkey’s autocratic ruler.
Every country claims to have freedom of speech, it is the exceptions you have to watch out for. “People here are free to say whatever they like, as long as it is not offensive” is a relatively common refrain in many countries. The truth is that offensive speech is the ONLY speech that needs protection.
Saying offensive speech is the only speech that needs protection is callously ignorant. Read a history book.
If no one is offended, who is objecting to the speech? What legal protection is needed?
“Only” is a word that is often false. But could you give a couple examples of non-offensive-speech-needing-protection? My mind is drawing a blank right now. Thanks.
Follow the money and it leads back expectations of increasing profits. So again we can point the finger at Wall Street and “shareholder” value. We have e what Robert Reich once termed disaster capitalism thanks to Wall Street.
I denounce hate speech by anyone but as an Indian I dont have anything redeeming to say about Islam or Muslims. They looted my country several times and killed my ancestors and took parts of India and made it their own.
Christians did quite a bit of looting as well… how do you feel about pink people?
Yes we indians hate british and portugese. But your question should be why is india allowing christians in their country. Why are indians not killing christians in their country letting them even propagate it. We dont see in color.
Some do, but it isn’t the norm.
Nationalism is one thing and clearly the brits and others are partly on the wrong side of that history. The other side to it is that the british brought India into the 20th century as we know it (for better or worse) , have defended Indian interests and also welcome many Indian migrants to UK, still one of the largest migrant groups. Those don’t hate the brits, nor many others I have met. Maybe you would have preferred other colonial masters, Russian or Chinese or who knows, because that was the period. Tough, and there were far worse than the british at work during those times.
A brit in Portugal.
Yes I have nothing redeeming to say about Christianity or Christians as well. Religions in general are useless and should not be granted tax favored status or any status.
India annexed neighboring countries and has been bullying Muslims in and out of India.
Do you have proof or are you just blabering?
It is about time. India has been invaded by muslims and Christians dozens of times. It is the oldest country in the world. Religion is a poor reason to invade any country and India finally has a non-pacifist as a leader.
The story should just be that fb refuses posts that incite violence, whether from pm or anyone. End of story. The pm can say what he likes elsewhere but fb just not publish material that violates its rules. Even better, it has a small team with the agreement of high profile characters that is allowed to review material before publish, to avoid any embarrassment and diplomatic upset. It should be a non story.
So you have to wonder if somewhere this story is a form of leverage against pm or country – to print then criticise the text on grounds of upholding “reputation”.
The story is stupid because the comment is not even from PM of india. It is from some guy from the PM’s party. And western media wants to show what happens in a lawless third world country.
“And western media wants to show what happens in a lawless third world country.”
I see some kind of propaganda going on, it is how they catch attention for that purpose . Funny thing is that US ties to India are not bad as far as I know, but US does maybe not have as much influence there as it would like. I don’t know.
Fortunately, there are places like Hyderabad where Hindus and Muslims have existed peacefully together for centuries.
Are you being sarcastic? Muslims rulers from hyderabad sent their dogs called razzakars to rape and kill hindus when Indian union wanted them to Join India.
I was told that, but looks like I got bad information, sorry.
Reading this thread it sounds like Hindus and Muslims are destined for eternal conflict and hatred, much like Arabs and Israelis.
I dont care about MSM. But everytime I see MISH complain about “hindu nationalist party” I like to call him “S H I T”. I think his christian supremacy comes out. He could have easily ignored this propaganda article but he wants to show the generosity of us christians.
Humans suck!
It wasn’t Muslims it was foreigners. Same for the British, it wasn’t Christians but just foreigners. That is how empire building works. You can change your religion or become an Atheist but that should not make you any less Indian. Why do you hate Christianity and Islam just because that was the the religion followed by the foreigners, would you be fine with Hindu’s who are American or British or any other citizens being discriminated against because of their religion simply because idiots like you can’t keep your mouth shut on social media.
What are you trying to say? Dont you see hindus being killed in Pakistan, Afganistan and bangladesh. Do you see any Indians making it an international issue. Christians in America had dot buster gangs before did anyone in India make it an issue. Now you will see people on social media talking back. If we keep quiet you think we are weak. We are not anymore we will talk back bit**.
Yell fire in a movie theater is a misquote of: Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
It was “falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic”.
If someone knew there was a fire in a theater and did not warn anyone then that would be criminal too.
The idea of banning hate speech is very subjective and erodes the fragile right of free speech. Once it is gone you’ll never get it back.
I’m sorry to say, friends, that a Fiber Curtain has descended across the Western world:
Just buy FB and you will enjoy how they do business. Stop analyzing the economy, or commenting on politics. Pick your favorites from FANGMAN + BLK and enjoy the ride! Every business engages in sleazy practices, otherwise they would not be in business to begin with. They all have a chief ethics officer whose job is to tell them what sleaziness they are most likely to get away with. Those who can get away with the most sleaziness win!
Ha! An dI have worked my share of them.
Here’s one tip: If a salesperson offers you a list of customers as an example of who is using their offerings, tell them that you want to select 5 from the list and would like their contact info. The person might just have a heart attack in front of you right then and there because most companies customer lists are never updated and some are flat out lies, especially in start-up’s and small companies.
The “customer” may have been a trial product that expired, may have been a 2-person group in a large company but the large company name makes it look like the whole company uses the product, may have been a customer 10 years ago but isn’t now. etc., etc.
Often, the sales rep will get back to you with the 3 or so customers that they have given a free product to in exchange for agreeing to act as a reference account. You will be told that anyone else you being up from the list has it in their “contract” not to talk to anyone else or be mentioned outside of the list you were provided.
I see problems occurring on Facebook I don’t see my cycling social media site and on here. Two things happen on the sites I mention that cut down on the problems plaguing Facebook. One is good moderation, that’s key. The prohibiting fake id’s . When both happen social media can work. Facebook has avoided effective moderation because it cuts down on profits. An effective newspaper would not survive long if the sorts of misinformation permitted on Facebook occurred on their op-ed pages. What made the Newsweek controversy so striking is the John Eastman piece was the exception and not the norm. And with that one piece the bigots were out including the one at 1600 Pennsylvania pointing to it as reason Kamalah Harris shouln’t run
August 14, 2020
25% in U.S. Say Neither Candidate Would Be a Good President
Story Highlights
Dont let perfect be the enemy of better. Everything is relative in life.
🙂 I’m trying to think of an election that is different from this one in regards to “Most people don’t like any of them!”
Thinking. Thinking. Nope. I give up.
Facebook has no principles. Watching its sociopathic executives dissemble has been an amusing and cheap form of entertainment.
Most CEO’s are sociopaths.
Both cable news and social media are destroying the country. Hate and misinformation compete with truth and grow like a cancer
An uneducated, anti-intellectual population is Facebook’s bread and butter. The current republican party is all about producing millions of these morons.
You give the “Republican” (such as it is) Party too much credit. They are not producers — they are harvesters.
I do not tolerate stupid accusations like this “Not sure why Mish is acting surprised.”
Where did I say or imply I was surprised?
Remove the comment or I will. And this is a warning. Do not put words into my mouth or accuse me of saying or implying things that I didn’t.
Mish should delve into the daily lives of Facebook moderators i.e. people who receive low pay to filter out videos of people being decapitated, etc. I am not being hyperbolic, there’s plenty of articles out there.
Mish conveniently leaves out that our tech companies need people to do that kind of work, while praising projects like self driving cars to the skies. Isn’t that also filtering?
Murica. Land of barbarians.
“Isn’t that also filtering?”
Maybe, but the topic was inciting violence , not promoting technology. It is also about fb declared own standards with regards, and where and why they aren’t met.
Facebook needs to apply for a patent on this new form of bribery.