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Germany and the EU are Hopelessly Behind on EVs and Artificial Intelligence

Lead image from Horizon Europe.

Sleepwalking Into Oblivion

Eurointelligence has an interesting article on how Germany is Sleepwalking Into Oblivion.

Current policy debates are rightly focused on the consequences of global bifurcation. But perhaps an even bigger danger for the EU is its failure to keep with the US and China on high tech. This is an area that is not on the radar screens of policy makers and the media. We noted a commentary in Germany outlining a scare scenario in which Germany would lose its leadership in the global car industry. The journalist concluded that this is possible but not likely. For us, this is the baseline scenario.

And so it seems for Federico Fubini, who has taken a deep-dive into the market for electric batteries in Corriere della Sera. Fubini notes that the European trade surplus in cars derives exclusively from the shrinking segment of fuel-driven cars. They are hopeless in the fast growing electric car business. The Chinese sold almost nothing to Europeans until recently, but they have become competitive in e-cars now (despite the protectionist EU car tariff). Fubini notes that the EU runs a trade deficit in this sector. Of the ten largest manufacturers of electric batteries, which is one of the core value-added components of electric cars, six are Chinese, three are South Korean, and one is Japanese. 

The decline of the European car industry is a cautionary tale. It’s not just e-cars, but a whole array of 21st century technologies. Europe has no representative in the world’s top ten digital companies any longer. SAP now ranks number 11, and there is not much after that. Artificial intelligence is largely a duopoly between the US and China. The only European country with a foot in this sector is Brexit-Britain. The UK government has identified AI as the best bet for regulatory divergence from an EU that is hampered by data-protection laws with a one-sided focus on consumers.

It does not matter a great deal where the electric batteries are produced, but who owns them. The European car industry is dying, while the EU keeps on congratulating itself on the successes of its science and research programme, Horizon Europe. 

Wave of the Future

EVs are the wave of the future whether anyone likes it or not. Eventually battery technology will be good enough and costs drop enough for widespread adoption. 

Regarding artificial intelligence, Microsoft invested tens of billions of dollars and Google wants to catch up. 

Meanwhile, the EU wants to bust up Google and Microsoft, and has little interest in AI other than wanting to regulate it to death. 

The US leads in technology because the EU would bust up any company before it got big enough to lead on anything. 

Proposed AI Pause

In the US, Elon Musk, the WSJ, and a group of signatories seek a 6-month pause in AI Development.

On April 1, I commented On the Proposed 6 Month AI Pause? Why Not 23? Forever? Better Yet, None at All

But a pause won’t happen, nor should it. Technology will not stop because some people worry that it will kill everyone.  

The EU is behind with no intention of even competing. Germany still wants to protect diesel.

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
I just bought a tesla model Y. Bottom line cost will be about $51k after 7500 credit. Less than the average gas car costs. My insurance went from about $100/mo to $50/mo because tesla monitors my driving habits and has found me to be very low risk. I drove to the store and back Saturday morning. I used 1% of the battery. It cost me about $20 to charge the battery. So it cost me 20 cents instead of the cost of over a gallon of gas. I’ll never need an oil change or an emissions test, which will save me about $150/year. I also never use the brakes. I just let regenerative braking stop the car. So, I’ll likely never need brake work. And there’s no transmission, so I’ll never need transmission work. Tires wear out faster, but overall it seems like the cost of ownership is lower. Not higher.
Anyone need jumper cables? Because I have no need for them any more.
EVs are cheaper to make for those who mass produce them, cost less to maintain, and are more convenient outside of trying to find charging stations on very long trips. But there are thousands of charging stations in the US and the number is growing very fast. So it’s not really an issue unless you’re way off the beaten path.
dcschultz
dcschultz
3 years ago
Anyone who has visited Europe realizes that they are way ahead of America in terms of sustainability. EVs are America’s attempt to continue its socialism for cars policies going as long as possible. The real way forward is sustainable, reliable, efficient transportation and that means trains, buses, bikes, e-bikes, motorbikes, infrastructure, parking for those technologies, and oh… walking, so that means mixed residential/business density and an end to minimum car parking requirements and this reign of single family zoning. The American suburban automobile age will be the anomaly, the temporary fluke, when looking back on history, and America will take the fall for its foolishness, since the Federal Highway Act in 1956 and all of its offspring destroyed the majority of American cities and scattered generations into an unsustainable social isolation for decades
Kick'n
Kick’n
3 years ago
Reply to  dcschultz
Gotta agree with that. In the 50’s B’more swapped efficient electric trolleys for gas guzzling, smoggy, smelly diesel buses that no one wanted except the big three auto makers. They “convinced” the city government and got their way. Thus began the white flight with the cracka’s buying cars and commuting from the suburbs.
DolyG
DolyG
3 years ago
“Eventually battery technology will be good enough and costs drop enough for widespread adoption.”
Let me see if I get this right: The man that keeps saying that there is no point in getting your knickers in a twist over climate change because hey, most people in most countries are too small to make a difference, on the other hand believes that battery technology has to improve for reasons unknown, and costs have to drop for reasons unknown. Well, we do know the reason. “Economic growth” said so, the same way that “economic growth” told Liz Truss that her policies were just fine.
What if climate change is a real threat, fossil fuels are really running out, and EVs are not going to make it apart from a market for the richest 10-20% of the population because electricity is also going to become more expensive and unreliable and the cars themselves are never going to be cheap? Well, I tell you what happens in that scenario. “Economic growth” is definitely not going to be happening. And those who keep believing in it will have to claim that the closest thing to peak oil that can be talked about, namely climate change, isn’t happening, because let’s not get people thinking that “economic growth” is a faith with no base whatsoever and growth indeed has limits. It’s really bad for business to think that way.
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago

There were approximately 10,000 energy projects in April designed to produce more than 2,000 gigawatts (GW) of collective power waiting for permits from federal and state agencies to connect to electric grids across the United States.The problem is, that is nearly twice the collective electricity output of the 1,250 GW now being produced by all the nation’s power plants, most of which were built to generate power using fossil fuels.

Therefore, two bottlenecks are looming—more power is trying to squeeze into an inadequate grid and coal-fired plants are being retired faster than new plants using renewable energy sources such as wind and solar are being built to replace them.

Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car
3/20/2023
LONDON/DETROIT, March 20 (Reuters) – For many electric vehicles, there is no way to repair or assess even slightly damaged battery packs after accidents, forcing insurance companies to write off cars with few miles – leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.
And now those battery packs are piling up in scrapyards in some countries, a previously unreported and expensive gap in what was supposed to be a “circular economy.”
“We’re buying electric cars for sustainability reasons,” said Matthew Avery, research director at automotive risk intelligence company Thatcham Research. “But an EV isn’t very sustainable if you’ve got to throw the battery away after a minor collision.”
Battery packs can cost tens of thousands of dollars and represent up to 50% of an EV’s price tag, often making it uneconomical to replace them.
astroboy
astroboy
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Car insurance is a scam. Had a $600 dent on a minivan with 60k miles on it. Car insurance company said it was totaled, would pay $1500. Thats how they make their money, minor damaged = totaled = peanuts payout = $$$ for selling the ‘totaled’ car for parts.
Only a complete fool would believe insurance companies write off EVs because they’re uneconomical to repair.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
Get serious! Insurance is a business. They will take the cheapest path to satisfying their contract obligations. No conspiracy theories necessary.
WHY would they pay to replace a whole car if there were any way lower cost way to restore the battery?
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
They are writing off the EV cars because compromised batteries run a risk of catching on fire. If that fire happens they are very hard to put out. Hence it’s not worth the risk because if it’s know the battery was damaged the lawsuits would run amok.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
They replace an entire battery pack. It’s a brand new battery, It has no greater fire risk than when the car was new.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
The batteries are now mostly being recycled. The piling up in junk yards is not true. While it is true replacing a battery pack is very expensive, it’s rare. The batteries will last a decade or more. They don’t degrade very much. Tesla has a 8 year warranty on them. They’ll replace if the range drops below 70%. Replacing a battery costs less than totaling a new car. A car with say 50K+ miles, may be declared a total if the battery needs replacing. But, the same can be said with a gas car that needs a new engine.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Tesla charges me about $50/mo for insurance. Costs less than my gas powered cars cost.
I do agree that other insurance companies tend to charge more for an EV, but the difference isn’t that great. Probably < 25% in most cases.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
The Germans are not infatuated with AI, nor madly in love with EV, with Tesla. In 2008 we saved the European banks, but Madam ECB
is raising rates. Are some US Commercial Banks Assets toxic. // Deposits, all commercial Banks are down $1T from it’s peak at $18.1T. Cash Assets used to be real dollar bills until 2008, thereafter IOU, a promise to pay. The IOU is also down $1T since Dec 2021, along with NDX, from $4.1T to $3T. Banks Cash Assets in the Fed used to hug zero, before Oct 2008. Since the banks were not lending to each other they deposited their money in the Fed. The Fed liked it so much they asked for more. The gov was infatuated with their new power. They financed mortgages and health care piling debt. The Fed promise to pay the banks. It was down $1T since Sept 2022, but after new hike to 5% more bank’s cash moved in, it’s your money in the Fed , your cash, up to $3.3T in the Fed ==> to financed US gov debt.
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago

EV range, price and cost will all likely improve. What i don’t see changing much is the power supply for these 100s of millions of new vehicles everyone expects to see on the road. Last winter, there was a 2% margin on the UKs electric supply. And this is before extensive electrification of heat, which is being planned for industrial and domestic use. Where is the power coming from? Last nuclear power station was agreed back in 2008 and if we’re lucky will come online in 2028. Solar and wind are jast compensating for decommissioned coal. Overall there’s been no increase in electrical supply for a number of years

Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
These guys appear to have already doubled energy density, which will double range: https://www.redsharknews.com/new-battery-technology-promises-double-the-energy-density. They say they’re going into production this year, so we’ll see…
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
It’s not the energy density of the battery that’s the issue, the problem is where do you generate all those kWhrs to fill these batteries? I don’t see new electric generator capacity growing anywhere near what’s likely to be needed.
A few years ago it was a food Vs fuel debate for biofuels. Now we have ‘heat your home’ or ‘ power your car’ debate
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
Where do you generate the energy? As we always have when we need more energy. We build it.
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Except we’re not building the required capacity
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
Depends where. Not so much in CA but a lot elsewhere. As demand for electricity increases we should see a corresponding decrease in gas and diesel consumption. Since electricity can be generated by burning gas and oil the additional electricity needs can be covered by burning them if people so desire. Oil and gas are just another way to produce the juice. There are many other ways so the capacity will be built.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
When Joe Howmuchamonth can’t drive himself down to ride the fattycart at Walmart, capacity will be found.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
Energy density correlates directly to range. This gives electrics the range of ICE cars. As for where the juice comes from, Uranium, hydro, wind, that big fusion reactor in the sky, or the same oil that would have gone into those ICE cars, except 20% less of it.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
You can recharge overnight when demand is a lot lower and cheaper. The typical EV car has about 275 miles of range on a full charge while the average car travels about 20 miles in day, so it has to be charged overnight every two weeks or so.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
Recurrent
Battery Science
August 25, 2022
Costs of Electric Car Battery Replacement
AND
The Inconvenient Truth About Electric Vehicles
The experience of owning, charging, and driving an electric vehicle makes the rising inequality of America more visible in new and subtle ways.
By Andrew Moseman
Feb 13, 2023
“These stated mileage figures apply to new vehicles. Just like a smartphone battery inevitably fades toward oblivion, a car battery steadily diminishes over the years. A warranty like Tesla’s guarantees only that the battery won’t fall below 70 percent of its original capacity within 100,000 miles of driving. Eight years into its life, then, that 272-mile Model 3 might max out at 190 “miles” of range. Suddenly, the gaps between far-flung highway chargers are larger than they may appear, and you may rue that you couldn’t spend more on the battery size at the beginning.”
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
You think batteries are going to be cheaper or more expensive in 8 years?
Do you think you will get more, or less capacity for that money?
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Studies have shown a EV battery only loses about 10% of it’s range at 100k miles. Do you think gas powered cars get as good mileage at 100k miles than when they were new?
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
It’s open source now… no stopping it. I’m running a 13b model on my gaming rig, and performance is tolerable. Everyone can have their own.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
I tested it and it is surprisingly good.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Europe does have a problem in that it is behind in the disruptive part of the the high-tech industry such as AI and electric cars. Unfortunately the list is not limited to those two areas. The EU’s anti-monopoly laws are much more strict than those in the US and the individual countries are protective of their own traditional national champions to boot. Put together it makes it hard for European cross-border mergers leading to mastodons like Google, Apple and company. Additionally Europe doesn’t have the same start-up culture that the US has and when a good start-up does come along (they do by the way) they are quickly picked up by the large established companies like Siemens for example so the small start-ups hardly ever get to grow to levels where they can then dominate an industry. It is changing slowly but the war in Ukraine has caused an electroshock to the system. We are seeing changes and cross-border mergers are in the works in several fields in energy, AI and especially in the defense sector. They have been shaken out of their slumber, know they are behind and are throwing lots of money to fixing it. Throwing tons of money at a problem is also used by the Chinese and the US. Till now Europe has been reluctant to spend money. Today it is not. It’s more like “whatever it takes”.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
I will continue to maintain my position that H2 cars will supercede electric cars in the next 10 years or so.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
The advantage H2 cars have is that they explode in an accident thereby cutting short the pain and suffering caused by the accident. Additionally it eliminates medical bills so it will lower insurance rates.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
[lol] I seem to recall numerous stories of exploding EV’s in a variety of news reports.
AND
Ford F-150 Lightning fire footage highlights a growing EV risk
Published Thu, Apr 20 2023
Mike Wayland
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Given the amount of subsidies being thrown at H2 now and over the next decade, H2 vehicles might eventually challenge EVs. I am always looking for H2 investments and have taken a shotgun approach to them over the last year (lots of small investments in a number of companies). I recognize that many will not work out, but I am looking to find the big winners going forward.
Having said all that, while hydrogen will become more important going forward, I doubt that it will be a big factor in transportation in 10 years time.
I remain heavily invested in oil and gas for the rest of this decade.
paperboy
paperboy
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
H2 -> ammonia. farmers been handling it for years
Ammonia, it turns out, might be the fuel of the future (interestingengineering.com)
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
No chance. The Japanese companies pushing this are doing so because they’ve lost the EV race.
Kick'n
Kick’n
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
I hope you’re right. I think they have even more potential. Could be cheaper and not rely on nasty mining and minerals. Plus they’re less vulnerable to a Karington event. Although such an event could destroy the electronics managing everything. But everyone could split water just like generating electricity.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
EVs will eventually displace ICE vehicles as the dominant mode of transport. The question is how long will it take?
There are currently 1.4 billion ICE vehicles in use worldwide, and this number continues to grow each year. Hence, there will be continuing growth in demand for gas and diesel transport fuel for the rest of this decade.
There will be roughly 70 million vehicles sold this year and 60 million of them will be ICE, while 10 million will be EV. Sometime in the next decade it is estimated that annual EV sales will finally exceed ICE sales. And within 2 decades the number of ICE vehicles being sold will drop to 1/7 from the current 6/7.
And since the total number of vehicles in use will keep growing overall, it is expected that by 2050, the total number of ICE vehicles in use will still be 1.4 billion (after peaking out at 1.8 billion, a decade earlier). And there will be close to a billion EVs in use as well.
Sometime between 2050 and 2060, the total number of EVs in use will finally exceed the total number of ICE vehicles in use.
All this assumes no game changing disruptive tech that can speed up this process or provide alternative means of transportation.
What is clear is that this is a very long process (4 decades). As we move through it, a lot of the concerns voiced here will be resolved. EVs will become far more economical than ICE vehicles. Ample renewable energy to power these vehicles will be built. Grid improvements, charging stations, and home charging solutions will be built out as well. And more and more assisted and autonomous driving capabilities will be added.
Big changes like this take time. Big changes also provide investment opportunities.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Very nicely summarized although I think the tipping point will be closer to twenty years than forty.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78

That is certainly a possibility. The future is difficult to predict. But I am not as optimistic as you are in the timeline.

Using current numbers of 1.4 billion ICE vehicles, even if we produced 70 million EVs per year (and no ICE) it would take 20 years to replace the existing fleet. And that is assuming that the overall number of vehicles does not grow (which it will).

In addition, as many note here, it will be a challenge to find all the necessary materials to build that many EVs going forward, and enough renewable energy sources to power them, though technology is always improving.

Either way, my investment thesis remains the same. The demand for more energy will continue to grow worldwide. And we are still not building enough renewables to satisfy that demand. So the demand for oil and gas will keep growing. Projections are for continued growth in oil demand of 1 million barrels per day each year for the next decade (just like the last 3 decades), from 100 mbpd to 110 mbpd.
But investment keeps shifting away from fossil fuels and towards renewables, because those in the industry are aware of where the world is heading and they don’t want to invest a lot of capex in growing assets that will eventually become stranded.
Which means tight oil supplies and higher prices for the next decade. Higher prices for oil and gas will enhance the push toward renewables. I intend to profit from high oil prices and eventually from the growth in renewables.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
You can use oil and gas to generate the needed electricity to run EVs. They are not tied to just renewables so EVs will not destroy the market for oil and gas. I am more optimistic as to finding the necessary materials than a few years ago. Tesla and others have recently said that they are building motors that either don’t need rare earths or use a very small amount. Same thing for cobalt. Copper might be a problem but the newer models of EVs are using their copper much more efficiently and therefore in smaller amounts as well. Copper itself can be replaced by aluminum if supplies run low. There are challenges but the technology is far from mature.
tractionengine
tractionengine
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I agree with all except the continuing growth of private vehicles forever. When we finally have autonomous cars, (and we will) the sales will drop dramatically. Most importantly, humans are not capable of driving safely all the time (check the accident statistics) and require traffic lights and signs and all sorts of regulations attempting to reduce the damage we do. Autonomous vehicles require much less and the resulting drop in damage will reduce costs (body shops, emergency wards, insurance) and jobs everywhere.
The public will demand that the government ban human control and that will be the nail in the coffin for private ownership. Your car is unused for about 90% of its life and the cost of owning the vehicle for such a short time will be senseless. As this sinks in, people will no longer want their own when it cost far less to call the vehicle style of your choice. The combination of not being allowed to drive and the cost of ownership will dramatically reduce the volume of vehicles needed. I am sure this will happen but don’t have a firm timeline – but my tea leaves say the transition has started.
Consequently, closer to “You will own nothing and be happy.”
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  tractionengine
I felt the same way 3 years ago, but given the struggles and slow pace of advancement in autonomous vehicles, I am less optimistic now. I was expecting autonomous to be widespread by 2040. Now I think i will take much longer. Though perhaps AI tech will speed things up. Either way, it does not change my investment thesis for the rest of this decade (which I mentioned above). Which is what really matters the most to me.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  tractionengine
In addition:
“You will own nothing and be happy.”
That is already the philosophy of many younger folks these days. Less “stuff” means less stress.
And many of the older folks I know are also in the process of divesting their burden of houses, recreational vehicles, etc. as they attempt to simplify their lives and reduce their stress as they age.
Perhaps a desire for a simpler life will be the next big trend to look for investment ideas.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
You will own nothing and be happy, means confiscation of assets, like what happened to the Knights Templar, or Incas and Aztecs, not people voluntarily choosing a simpler life style.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Stuff is a prison that holds you in one place untill you die.
What I own fits in my truck and small cargo trailer, and I need to purge some of that. I keep tools, clothes, guns, guitars, computers, a couple bicycles and a kayak because I use them almost daily. Anything else I’ll rent.
For example, I have no need to own a dirt bike… I can rent one less than a year old when I want to go flying, and I don’t have to maintain it or look at it sitting in the garage depreciating. Same with jet skis or most other fun stuff. I get to play with way more toys than I could have ever bought or stored… and so do all the other people that rent them. It’s a lot more efficient than each of us having a bunch of crap sitting in a storage locker until it rots and goes to the landfill. It actually ends up getting used to the point of wearing out.
I look at people’s garages crammed full of stuff they will never use again, and it makes me physically ill. How do you live in a pile of junk like that? They can’t even get the car in there! It’s like they’re Jr. Hoarders, but it’s totally normal and accepted.
I focus on accumulating cash. Cash is instantly transformable into whatever stuff you need at the moment, and if you rent, you don’t have to figure out what to do with it after.
This is what Klaus is talking about, and it works for people that don’t define themselves by what they own.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Nothing means nothing, including assets. Roosevelt confiscated peoples gold, when times got bad. History is full of other examples. 31 trillion national debt, isn’t chicken feed.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
….aaaaand you JUST posted about confiscation of all the other assets.
The mind boggles.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Interesting.
I rent my toys to folks like you for extra (cash) income.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
I don’t rent the buzzy toys.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Somehow, over the course of less than 20 years we went from W’s “Ownership Society” to “You’ll Own Nothing”.
I wish these guys would make up their mind.
Avery
Avery
3 years ago
This post /comments interesting compared to that on ZH re Amish.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
3 years ago
The good news is EVs will come with plenty of subscriptions to keep the profits rolling in….I’m just waiting to see who will emerge as king of subscription services. Lots of people think it will be Ford or Tesla but my money is on the current king of subs: Apple.
BMW – subscription for heated seats + subscription for WiFi and remote access
Mercedes – subscription for engine/battery performance
Makes me sad that I get by without a car and all those related expenses 😉
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
I would imagine it won’t take long for 3rd party people to ‘unlock’ those features. If the heated seats are already there it will be trivial to install manual controls for them if the software somehow can’t be hacked.
alexwest
alexwest
3 years ago
= EU/ USA
EU has been on palne EARTH for YYYY centuries!
i will make wild guess. it will be same way for many centuries to come.
USA runs biggest trade / and budget deficits in world, does not have soical cohesion and some elements in USA acitvely
wants to destroy country . i dont know why!
i think EU will be fine.
alexwest
alexwest
3 years ago
=EVs are the wave of the future whether anyone likes it or not
so much bs.!!!!
usual BS from geographically challenged US people who never travelled ouside own ‘county’.
yeah i know it is from euro source!
#1 EU is not USA! it is different.
#2 size of EU is smaller, number of people living is way higher 500+ mil against 330 mil!
#3 most of Eu people live IN HISTORICAL cities in flats vertically. in USA people live horizontally! outside cities and need to travel.
#4 EU has excellent public transport system, thing doesn’t exist in USA!
#5 most of EU people are way more frugal so they count own money before spending on such BS .
so summing up:
EU doesnt need EV , they live in cities w/ excellent transport system!
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  alexwest
When city-dwellers in the EU need a car they rent one and even now the choices they get are heavy on EVs. In the very near future they will be totally electric by law. trucks are used to deliver good that they need to survive and they too will have to be electric. Today electric trucks are already cost-effective for that role. There is no reason economic or otherwise why the all electric transportation will not spread to the countryside. It’s just a question of building the infrastructure and to do that is much less costly than even maintaining the present gas stations.
tractionengine
tractionengine
3 years ago
Reply to  alexwest
As usual, people with your viewpoint are fighting history and can safely be ignored. Sure you can argue you have facts and so did the buggy whip makers and the steam aficionados; all swept away by innovations so many like you couldn’t or wouldn’t see. Your facts will keep you back but will not stop progress made by others.
There are three types of people – people who make things happen, people who watch things happen, and those who wonder what happened.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  tractionengine
Either pull, push or get the hell out of the way.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  alexwest
Your argument is against owning cars. Not owning EVs. The EU already has 20% EV new car sales. Will be over 50% in a couple of years.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
3 years ago
Europe is a democracy of autocrats.
Cabreado
Cabreado
3 years ago
The wave of the future… via mandates, subsidies, legislation, and a whole lotta lies.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Wait a minute. You said that EVs are not economic and won’t push out gas vehicles and now you say the Europeans are behind in EVs and are relying too much on gas cars that you said will still be dominant in the future. If you feel that EVs are not the future then being behind in them is not bad but good and focusing on gas cars while others car manufacturers blow money on EVs should be the best strategy. It sounds confusing.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
If you feel that EVs are not the future then being behind in them is not bad but good and focusing on gas cars while others car manufacturers blow money on EVs should be the best strategy. It sounds confusing.
Oh Doug my friend, you are finally woking up. Don’t panic, just take a deep breath and woke it all in then the clarity will come. We are here to support you through your journey. It will be a little confusing and a little frightening but the final journey will be serene.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
They are not economic but I said a hundred times they are coming anyway. For people in cities who go nowhere, they will be a reasonable option eventually.
I do not support Biden’s push for all the reasons I stated.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
They will not do much for the environment.
Like Elon Musk or not, I don’t personally, but one has to give him credit for the things he has done.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Credit for EVs? EVs existed before Tesla. Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai have been sitting on the technology and even had vehicles. All 3 now have fully electric affordable vehicles. Meanwhile one reason Tesla keeps dropping their prices is they aren’t price competitive.
In the end I think the hybrid solar/electric/gas vehicle will win out. A Dutch company is making some this year but the cost of those will rapidly fall over the next few years. I will drive my fully paid for gas vehicles for now.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
The legacy car companies do have electric cars to sell but they aren’t making a profit. Muck’s genius is also in the manufacturing process. Legacy manufacturers do not really “make” cars. They mainly just assembled them from parts made by car-parts companies. They did away with vertical integration decades ago and frankly don’t know how to do it any longer while Tesla’s factories are vertically integrated. Raw materials go in one end and finished cars come out the other. This gives an incredible advantage. To improve a part Tesla doesn’t need to go to the part’s manufacturer to ask them to change it for them. They can do it themselves. What normally would require negotiating with the parts supplier to modify a part which takes a lot of time and effort can now be done in very little time because they control the process. They gain speed and flexibility.
The legacy car manufacturers have been studying Musk’s factories and processes in order to copy them because they are not set up to operate that way and haven’t been for decades. Musk has been at it for years now and has the lowest cost of production by far. Eventually the legacy car companies will catch on but many will go under and will probably have to be bailed out by governments before they do.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
What Elon did was understand that people wouldn’t buy them if they were billed as an econobox, so he made them luxury cars and status symbols. He made Joe Howmuchamonth want an electric car. It worked, and set the tone for the entire industry.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Electric motors are just more efficient to run and to make than thermic ones. They only became doable recently because the battery technology until now was not yet up to to the task. Electricity can be produced from many different sources be it nuclear, wind, solar, hydroelectric, geothermal or by burning hydrocarbons or even wood. For thermic engines to work its energy can only come from one source, oil and gas, and those sources are found in only certain areas of the world. That by itself is a compelling logic to see EVs become dominate in a short enough time.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
You misread the sentence. Pointing out an inconsistency has nothing to do with panicking and I must also point out that your answer did nothing to clarify or explain this inconsistency. I must conclude that either you didn’t perceive it or that you don’t have the words to explain it. Perhaps you can elucidate me as which one it is.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78

All you’re gonna get is “woke woke woke”.

Ultracrepidarian
Ultracrepidarian
3 years ago
Then only way that EV’s could be “the wave of the future whether anyone likes it of not” is if hundreds of new nuclear reactor electrical generating plants are started to being built RIGHT NOW. It takes a very long time to get all the permits and environmental impact studies done.
Because whether or not the moonbeam leftists believe it or not, the actual laws of the universe are still in force, and one thing that they insist upon is that solar panels and windmills cannot possibly ever replace fossil fuels, no matter how much government debt subsidies are paid out and no matter how much scientific research goes into finding better ways of doing them. Gasoline still holds 50 times more energy than any battery ever made, per volume or per mass. Gasoline is also still easier and safer and cheaper to store and to transport. Plus it does not require child labor in Katanga province of The Congo.
There is a reason why all of the EV stocks have been falling lately, as well as all of the solar panel and windmill stocks. People have done enough experimenting with these things to being to find out the real “inconvenient truth” which is that they dont work as advertised, and if the governments dont back off and relent and go back to encouraging fossil fuel use, then a whole lot of their citizens are going to die, and that tends sometimes to make the citizenry get made enough to rise up against its leaders.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
3 years ago
Gasoline is also still easier and safer and cheaper…
Except for the cost of CO2 that makes the earth warmer which enables fungi to grow out of control which then kills the food supply but famine and massive death isn’t a hard cost, it’s only a soft cost….
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
We just need a couple of volcanoes to cool the earth by a couple of degrees.
Where does EV charge come from ? It’s from fossil fuels of the grid. Unless you have solar that can fully charge your vehicle.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Even if the plant is fossil, you’re still looking at 70% efficiency from the fuel for electric vs 30% for ICE.
Big fossil generators are efficient.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
How did people survive the Roman and Medieval warmings, with all that out of control fungi back then? It’s funny how everything about warming is supposed to be dangerous to life, yet life existed then.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
You becoming a conspiracy historian now? Running dry on talking points now that tucker’s gone?
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
The cost of solar panels keeps going down while they’re also becoming more efficient. And there are many companies who can economically supply batteries to store charge. Tesla is the biggest supplier right now.
Tesla has a new business model where they buy electricity at night when it’s cheap, store it in their batteries and then sell the electricity back during the day at a higher cost.
Dr Funkenstein
Dr Funkenstein
3 years ago
The U. S. Leads in E V cars because we have intelligent people running the government
msspec
msspec
3 years ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
”The U. S. Leads in E V cars because we have intelligent people running the government”
Yes, of course; just listen to Harris/Biden ‘lead’ us to the promise land with their erudition (on ANY issue).
tractionengine
tractionengine
3 years ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
Absolutely true except that some other countries have most excellent leadership as well. For too long fake news has been used to suggest our glorious leaders are lacking. The solution is to censor the lies out of our communications and the sooner the better. Let our leaders lead is what I say. The public simply does not vote for the wrong people and are never wrong. Long live our freedom to vote for the right people!
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
Is this sarcasm? The US lags in EV cars behind China. Outside of Tesla, we have almost no EV production.

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