Watch Governor DeWine respond to an emotional message from North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum on wearing masks.
NBC played a clip of governor Burgum then asked DeWine a pair of questions:
- “How did masks become this political dividing line?”
- “Do you wish the president would help you here out a little bit more?“
“The [ND] governor is right,” responded DeWine. “This is not about politics. This is not about whether you are liberal or conservative, left or right, Republican or Democrat.”
“We wear the mask and it has been very clear what the studies have shown. This is one time when we truly are all in this together. What we do directly impacts others.”
“Our order does say that every employee in every business unless there is some reason they can’t wear that mask, then every employee is wearing that mask.
DeWine ducked the question “Do you wish the president would help you here out a little bit more?“
What We Do Impacts Others
That is the critical issue and it is good to see a Republican Governor say it.
Moreover, businesses have an obligation to protect employees and have a safe environment for customers.
Those who think it is their business and theirs along about partying in groups need to think again of their “I don’t give a damn, It’s my right , etc.” implications when returning to work, shopping, handling groceries, and even the insurance costs imposed on others when acting foolish.
Mish
United we stand. Divided we fall! This difference of opinion, is our God given right, but, as to dividing families, where are belief’s are different, has split people apart, family, or . . Mask wear it not, go outside or not, visitors, stay in hotels, eating @ restaurant, conspiracy conversations, gvmts controls. I read so many different news apps. If we could all just be on the same page for once! & Have respect for other people’s personal space!
This virus is like an IQ test that many people are badly failing. It is a simple question of public health. While masks do provide some degree of protection for the user, their main purpose is to stop the wearer from infecting others. Wearing a mask shows you are responsible and care about what happens to other people. Not wearing a mask shows you do not care about your self or any one else. Being stupid and self centered are not exactly admirable traits…
There is no doubt that corona virus deaths are significantly under counted not just in the US but globally. There is a lot of misinformation being circulated in this country. You might want to read the BBC news article available via the below link. The BBC’s charter mandates that it provide unbiased news reporting. Something that is sadly not readily accessible in this country.
The BBC was once the premier news organization in the world. It is now just another MSM megaphone for the same old crap. Everything has been politicized and everyone but the elite suffers for it.
Has anyone seen a reference to the CDC study posted 5 entries above this one on the MSM TV news? This is real news based on science. We’re going with the science, aren’t we? This study shows Covid-19 to be less than one tenth as deadly as the WHO estimated. Huge news. I have not seen a single report about it. Though, last night ABC news did show us grave diggers in Brazil. Screw the MSM and the Masks. First masks don’t work, now they do. Spread by contact, not by contact. Fauci says don’t worry, be happy at the end of January, then lights our hair on fire in March. He effing knew better. The WHO said the US was overreacting to cut air travel with China. They were covering for China. They effing knew better. Blah, Blah, Blah. Tired of the bullshit. There are ulterior motives in this and the world is suffering for them. It would be nice to know who and why.
Great
Great
I wouldn’t argue that masks are a political dividing line, although ‘fashion statement” is not a factor to be ignored either. I live in northern VA, 10 miles from the White House, and about 1/3rd of people in the local grocery stores don’t wear masks, that’s about the same fractions as workers in the stores.
I was in MD a few miles outside the DC line this weekend, and caught alot of dirty looks for not wearing a mask, also, I committed the mortal sin of pushing the siliver buggy in the wrong direction against the one-way markers on the aisles. They don’t exist in NoVa and I frankly didn’t notice them, so I guess said, “Oops, sorry (Like I give a shit, nimrods)”.
So, that’s what a difference of six miles, going from one state to another makes…
I do cancer research sort of as a hobby so I get all the articles on covid emailed to me directly, whether I ask for them or not. It’s not clear that masks do any good, and might do actual harm. Having said that, before someone calls me an idiot, I’ll say that, yes, I could be wrong, but I’m not the only MD who has reached this opinion….
In the OR, your Friendly Neighborhood Surgeon & Co. wear masks, not for filtration, but to avoid one’s breath going directly into the wound.
Viruses are really small. Filters good enough to isolate them didn’t exist until the 1960s, to give you an idea. A mask is not going to filter viruses or bacteria very well at all,
But, they will do a fair job of filtering droplets from sneezes and coughs that contain the germs. The problem is:
Once that stuff has been caught by the mask, you’re re-inhaling it, thousands and thousands of times. That equals re-infection, unless you’re changing your mask quite frequently. (It’s not really well understood, but the size of droplets has a big effect on whether they just get inhaled and exhaled with no harm done, or get caught in your nose(usually not a big deal), or end up snagged deep in your lungs (problem) ).
So, a mask probably helps some in your not spreading the germs to other people, although I suspect unless your coughing in someone’s face the effect is likely minimal.
However, once your mask has snagged germs, from something you’ve inhaled yourself or droplets from someone else who coughed near you, you’re re-infecting yourself. Once those germs are multiplying in your system, you’re a spreader, and probably going to get sick yourself.
I’ve read scientific publications not generally accessible to the public unless you know where to dig the journals up, and I haven’t read a single thing that makes a really solid case that masks do any net good. Again, I’m not talking about an OR situation where it’s a confined space and everything is discarded after one use. I’m talking about the local grocery store and a mask that’s reused many times.
I personally have decided that not to use a mask. I think that’s best for me and others around me. If I was to go into a nursing home, or any place with close quarters, etc., then like in an OR a mask is a good idea.
This whole thing is a case where the science is overlooked in the interests of infotainment, or half assed political agendas, if you ask me. Just my opinion, but I think it’s based on solid analysis….
The real test is what has happened in countries that required masks? Countries that were quick to have everyone in masks, like S. Korea got it under control in a hurry. The Czech Republic also saw a big difference when they required them. It would be nice if someone did a study looking at the question in more depth, and including more data points.
That would be really interesting. Unfortunately, retrospective studies tend to reveal the biases of the researchers, rather than actual findings. I think there are too many variables to say whether masks help or not, but there is good reason, as I pointed out, to think that they don’t.
Mish, Drs. Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein did an excellent podcast on this very question. I believe it was the 9th episode of the Darkhorse Podcast. You seem to be very much like both of them.
For those who need to be reminded of the non-lethality of covid-19, and to support those who rightfully ask who the masks are protecting and from what:
There are two groups of thinking about the whole thing.
1 The government can protect us from the virus by suspending our rights for the next year ( if we are lucky and a vaccine appears ). If this is true, all this may be worth it. MASKS.
2 This will be over when herd immunity stops it. We can either get it over with and save something of our social institutions and economy, or we can fart around at an “acceptable???” death rate and get to the same point years from now. NO MASKS.
If your fate is death by fire, do you want to be thrown in, or have someone start at your toes with a blow torch?
I can support either a REAL effort to wipe it out, or letting it run its course. The present course just preserves the ability of the MSM to spread fear and panic with no end in sight and continued economic and social destruction. This course of action is also a Marxist’s wet dream with enormous damage to the family structure, religious institutions, and small business as a start. How many years can it remain an “emergency?”
Spain political divide is becoming even more apparent. The current PM was sworn in without bible for first time, the women’s day march that was openly allowed by gov took place while it is presumed to have known the possibility of contagion and was banning evangelical meetings at the time. This from a leaked judicial report in today’s thread from Mathew Bennett. He also posts pension figures… maybe they changed benefit type I don’t know…but from february the number claiming has dropped for first time in series, and by 51 000 , “saving government a quarter billion a year” . Total virus fatalities for Spain are listed around 27 000.
So new CDC data shows expected 0.26% death rate, possibly 0.2% if asymptomatic cases are 50% instead of 30%.
The virus we are fighting is one of social media and stupidity.
Wearing a bandana across your face while walking outside is silly. It won’t filter viruses, it forces you to rebreath all the viruses/toxins your body is trying to expel through your breath.
Wearing an N95 mask in an operating room or medical facility good idea.
The mask your mom sewed out of cloth = a joke.
Has everyone lost their minds?
If your mask is forcing you to ‘rebreath all the viruses/toxins your body is trying to expel’, maybe you should stop making it out of plastic bags? Might help brain function, too.
Was about to post similar
But I am more familiar with other figures (Spain) which give around 1% IFR, mostly older of infirm. Both sets add up to more or less the same picture though in terms of who it affects most. None of the figures are as negligible as might seem – (Spanish flu estimates are sometimes around 0.2% for example – CORRECTED 2%) – ed. not for population most affected nor for totals in naive population where fatalities would be 200 000 per hundred million. Here it seems for now that it would wipe out much of the older generation.
The points are that:
Individually for most people IFR is low.
If you take 0.2% and apply it to global or national population the result is not good.
There are questions regarding sequela.
The nature (unnatural nature) of the virus and how it attacks people is not fully known, is something to be wary of.
There is possibility of new deadlier strain.
……..
The rest is social and personal mitigation of the spread of the virus, there are going to be many views, many different kinds of assessment.
Personally I don’t like wearing masks, but I also think in a closed in environment, or when in close presence of another, it is civil or courteous. Though I don’t like wearing a mask, I still wear one in those circumstance for my own protection.
I’m maybe more cautious than others, and own circumstance is that this is not hard because of own rural setting with less public contact than most. Other people in other circumstance will have their own view.
I think a lot of questions are being asked on the virus, maybe one day we will be past political division and know where to properly place any blame.
The Case Fatality Rate for the Spanish Flu was 2.5%
My wrong. Apologies.
In the other direction, CFR for Spanish flu might have been much higher
Numbers from that time are all over the place naturally as most folks were too busy digging mass graves and burning/dumping bodies rather than ensure any sort of accurate accounting was done. The numbers thrown around years ago when I cared gave a variance to CFR from 1 to 5%. Everyone sort of agreed to split the difference and say 2.5%.
The point is that the CFR for Covid-19 is nowhere near this.
Something ate my reply, plus Mishtalk was down for a while…too long to retype.
The figures for ncov are all over the place also. I still find IFR of 1% credible , maybe 0.2% is more so . The Spanish figure is tested fatalities (true number might be more) crossed with broad random serology background testing. In a naive population that is 200 000 fatalities to 1 million in every hundred million, mostly older population. I don’t know if or where we draw any line. Sense is protect older population, precaution for the rest. If IFR in young healthy population is 0.05% say, what response would be adequate ? Even with such a low figure society in general would still be nervous, maybe as much so as now.
These are really difficult questions and I don’t have the answers. It doesn’t matter my position , I’m just picturing how any people will be reacting, no matter whether under or over.
“Other people in other circumstance will have their own view.”
This is getting to the nub. Can govt create laws on the fly mandating the wearing of masks so that it is no longer a personal choice, so that your view is irrelevant?
Can they mandate vaccines?
Can they pass law such that if you refuse vaccine, you cannot go to X workplace?
The mask right now is a symbol of mind control. Some people are wearing it to encourage everyone to follow the rules, be respectful, fear the virus, be good citizen, save lives etc. Others reject wearing it because most of them don’t work, wearing them outside is silly, being frightened of a virus is cowardly, the figures are batshit inaccurate, they aren’t in an old folks home so have more chance of dying by lightning strike than virus and the sooner we all get it the sooner things can go back to normal, and because it’s a form of mind control to get everyone terrified of a virus, shutting down the economy, losing our businesses and way of life. Etc.
But really, it’s gonna get constitutional real fast. The mask is prelude to mandatory vaccine battle. And others similar (involving working, travelling, voting etc.).
These governors both did a good thing.
It is all a hoax and a worldwide media conspiracy to make our stable genius look bad. But seriously, Even if the scientists are not 100% correct about the effectiveness of wearing a mask isn’t it still worth the effort even if it just saves a few lives? Everyone is entitled to their opinions but as I said before you can’t fix stupid.
Having seen signs all my life that said “No shoes, No shirt, No service”, I see no particular difference between that and “No shoes, No shirt, No mask, No service”.
“Stop infringing on my freedom to go pants less and shirtless, you sheep. “ imagine sounding that dumb and not knowing it.
It’s one thing to impose a dress code on private property (restaurant etc.). It’s another to make it a law to wear something on public property, or in all situations etc. It will be the same when it comes time to decide on mandatory vaccines. This is a heavy constitutional issue. The way things are going now, looks like most Americans are going to favour mandatory vaccines. It’s a reasonable position. Unfortunately, once it is established, there will be no limit to future mandatory restrictions and before you know it, any semblance of a rights-based constitutional republic will be a distant memory.
Too many are going to take the offer to trade away sovereignty for safety. This whole virus thing is really a stroke of genius.
Have you tried leaving your house naked in public? Have you tried expressing your freedom to love an underage person? How about expressing your freedom of speech by telling your least favorite politician how you’d like to see them pay for the perceived trampling of rights? All the “rights” are interpreted and enforced by the institutions of the republic – courts, law making bodies, law enforcement bodies, and so on. And there are times of emergencies where a select set of fewer individuals gain more power. So yeah, in this emergency, that’s what those individuals decided. It may be rolled back, challenged, re-instated, whatever, but that’s how this all works. And sometimes the slippery slope is just flat land. Virus will get a vaccine and no masks necessary. Or maybe it won’t and we’ll all have to adjust and keep ourselves and each other safe. Like vaccines.
That is well said.
And why I wear a mask where I have to.
Even though it’s my considered opinion that this pandemic has been blown way out of proportion, both by honest people who have fallen under a spell that has turned them into cowards, and also by unscrupulous people using it as a tactic in some sort of asymmetric war, or political struggle or whatever.
Yes, laws can be made.
But they can also be bad laws.
And they might also lead to worse laws.
And how they are made matters: One day Governor X wakes up, makes a new law, you don’t like it and end up in jail and your family starves. And yet the day before, that law didn’t exist and what you were doing was fine.
There are good ways and bad ways of doing things.
And there are good laws and bad laws.
As with any problem, there are more wrong answers than right answers, by a wide margin. Not wearing a mask is the wrong answer.
“How Did Masks Become this Political Dividing Line?”
How is it a political dividing line?
At their daily briefings, mayor Garcetti and governor Newsom don’t wear a mask.
Yesterday i saw a photo someone took of governor Northham taking a selfie with someone, while he was not wearing a mask. They were also not social distancing.
I am not a supporter of either three, but when i am out in public, going to the grocery store, i wear a mask. People in L.A. ran to the beaches and hiking trails over the holiday weekend. The trails in particular had social distancing issues.
One shot of a group of people playing with a ball seemed to show none were wearing a mask. Not sure what the general mask compliance was, but i couldn’t tell political affiliation just by looking at the news footage.
All the official sources started out by saying that masks don’t work. But now they should be obligatory because official sources say so.
I think the virus should be eradicated because herd immunity by infection or vaccine immunity will take forever. I think the powers that be thoroughly bungled the opportunity from January onwards.
It was probably inevitable this would happen. People have been fed a lot of contradictory information and they’re angry in general after decades of a successful “divide and conquer” narrative.
Freaking out about wearing a face mask seems like a really dumb hill to die on, but it is a decision people can control, unlike anything the Fed does. By now everyone has at least a dim understanding that the vast majority of people are getting screwed, even if they don’t know how or why. They probably perceive the defiance of not wearing a mask as a statement when they’re not sure how else to make one without ending up dead or in prison.
Of course the virus doesn’t care about political statements and these people waited way, waaaaaaay too long to start caring about tyranny, but it’s not too difficult to see what they’re trying to do.
Mask wearing is not anything to do with tyranny. That is for the shelter-in-place orders and the economic close downs. It is a shame that there are so many sheep who chose to follow what they were told to do without question. There have been articles written about this but you won’t find those articles on most mainstream media papers/TV/websites.
An article that discusses these ideas and also makes a case for the en masse acceptance of CV19 orders as similar to how regular Germans embraced Nazism, even though most didn’t actually support that philosophy is here:
Safety is Found in Principles, Not Lies
Barry Brownstein
– May 22, 2020
As to masks, the WHO has stated (see my post up above), that there is not yet any actual lab proof that asymptomatic transmission works, so therefore, mask wearing is not supported logistically.
The only way to make this virus less of a threat is to allow it to go through 60% of the population so that the population can develop herd immunity (unless covid 19 is different). I wonder how many lives are going to be lost due to the precautions?
No documentation of any kind of HERD IMMUNITY developed anywhere in the world, including China. May be transient for a couple months. Those who think who are ‘cured’ are getting re-infected. again!
“No documentation of any kind of HERD IMMUNITY developed anywhere in the world, including China.”
That is because most everywhere except Sweden, governments have been actively suppressing herd immunity from occurring.
Although your statement about Sweden might be tangentially correct, the evidence so far suggests that every place – whether suffering a lockdown or not – is not close to herd immunity levels. The most I think I’ve seen estimates climb to is around 10% infected for broad areas (as in states) and perhaps more in some cities (like New York).
Considering New York likely has one of the widest/broadest infection percentages for their population, I would suggest that they would be the ones most interested in attempting to get to and maintain herd immunity levels. I am not near that area of the US, but I see no sign from news/governor’s messages/etc. that they are remotely interested in doing that – largely because of the experience they have already had. I would suggest that herd immunity is in the same category as a vaccine — desirable but not feasible in the short term.
Moreover, there is no way to know if herd immunity would work here!
60% of 330,000,000 people = 198,000,000 Covid infections
If the case fatality rate is 1% , 198,000,000 x 0.01 = 1.98 million deaths at the herd immunity goal post.
Letting a virus run roughshod over the population is the lazy way. Advanced economies are supposed to know better and do better.
You realize that unless there is either a) a vaccine or b) a real honest-to-god-nobody-goes-anywhere-for-anything LOCKDOWN, the virus isn’t going to stop until it has run its course…
A vaccines is not a certainty – in fact it’s a long shot as this CV-19 attacks and grows in the upper respiratory system.
And a lockdown like that is also not possible. Not here, not China, not anywhere.
This means you can limp around wearing a mask, staying 3 meters from everyone and doing the Covid shuffle for the 24 to 36 months it will take for the virus to run its course, or you can go about your business and let it take 3 to 5 months.
In either case, the same number of people – indeed probably the same people will be dead when the dust clears.
A vaccine is not a certainty , agreed – but better treatments for an infection in the coming months are likely. For a herd immunity strategy it would have to work its way through the entire planet since all economies are connected. Letting it replicate wildly also increases the chance of a new strain – which could bring us back to square one. Just because the earth survived past pandemics without a strategy – no strategy isn’t the right strategy if millions of lives are sacrificed.
Just as you can’t know if a vaccine is coming, you can’t know that any sort of treatment is coming. How many viruses that are harmful to humans currently have an effective treatment? How many have a vaccine? The answer to both is “not many.”
And herd immunity doesn’t mean that everyone has to have it. The ability of the virus to propagate declines as it runs out of hosts. So you have a large spike up to about 25% of a given population and then it levels off and starts declining as it runs out of viable hosts. This was the original idea of the lockdown – slow the spread until we knew how bad it was and could be sure we were prepared. Well, now we know. For an extremely large percentage of the population, it’s less dangerous than riding or driving a car every day.
Furthermore, as I said to another poster below – the lockdowns themselves are gambling with the lives of millions of people. That is a point that is beyond argument.
Millions have lost their jobs – and a large percentage of them will not return.
Hundreds of thousands of small businesses – that put food on the table and pay the bills for millions of people – have closed. A large percentage of them will not return.
Millions of people have had no access to things like cancer screening, routine MRIs, EKGs, mammograms…etc. How many will die because they missed the window for early detection?
How many will succumb to depression and end up abusing drugs or alcohol or worse simply ending their own lives?
And yes – sometimes no strategy is indeed the best strategy when it comes to government. Give people real numbers and the best advice you can and let them decide how to act.
These are the most common retorts on the internet currently. It would behoove the arguments if some footnotes were included.
“sometimes no strategy is indeed the best strategy when it comes to government. Give people real numbers and the best advice you can and let them decide how to act.”
The problem with a highly contagious virus is – the way one decides how to act can affect dozens of others. What does it mean to be part of a community? a country? a civilization?
Footnotes?
You need footnotes to see that millions of people have indeed lost their jobs? You need footnotes to see that hundreds of thousands of small businesses were forced to close? You need footnotes to understand that not only were many “elective” services and testing closed by lockdowns, but because of the endless loop of hysterics that continues to be played, many people refuse to go to the doctor or a hospital AT ALL – for anything?
If you need footnotes for that, I would suggest you go outside and see for yourself.
Yes, the virus is highly contagious. What it is not – for a very large portion of the population – is deadly. The numbers are out – straight from the CDC. Argue with them if you like.
Shutting down the entire economy for this was like using a LAWS rocket to kill a spider.
Awesome strategy – unless you happen to be standing within a few feet of the spider.
The covid-19 case fatality rate estimates for including asymptomatic carriers is around 0.1%. In most cases asyptomatic carriers have been under-estimated, so the real CFR is likely to be less than 0.1%. Besides, a large % of fatalities are of the aged and co-morbid. These two points change the appropriate decision significantly.
If the CFR is .1%, then approximately 100 million Americans have already had Covid-19. That sounds very high to me and I haven’t seen anything that supports that claim. Besides at this point we know the NY state death rate exceeds .1% of the total population and no one is asserting every NY state resident has had the disease. Your second point is certainly true.
As for the “amount” of virus ingested playing a roll in the outcome, I think this is still a matter that needs to be studied. If the “amount” doesn’t play a roll why have an inordinate number of otherwise healthy and younger doctors and nurses died of the disease. They shouldn’t be at anymore risk of dying than their cohorts in the general population if you are correct. I don’t know the answer, but I’m not willing to dismiss that the amount of exposure plays a roll at this point.
“In either case, the same number of people – indeed probably the same people will be dead when the dust clears.”
Only if you, a priori and without any justification aside from blind faith, assume there is a hard zero difference in expected patient outcome, regardless of how much virus a patient is externally exposed to.
Otherwise, a higher number of concurrently infected people, results in each new infected, statistically, being infected by more people, hence have been exposed to a higher cumulative viral load, and hence having a worse prognosis.
I’m not aware of conclusive empirical “proof” either way, but I’d be hard pressed to come up with any reasonable justification for blindly assuming that exposure to any pathogen is completely, 100% dose invariant.
If it really is so in this case, that anomaly is what needs proving. And until someone does so conclusively, gambling with the lives of millions simply on account of oversimplified “models” which run contrary to all and any of both prior experience and common sense is, at best, needlessly reckless.
You are gambling with lives EITHER WAY.
Locking down an economy by scaring people with talk of millions of dead people piling up in the streets, telling 50% of your work force that their jobs are non-essential, and forcing hundreds of thousands of small businesses to close is also gambling with “millions of lives”.
The CDC just released their estimated death rate for Covid-19.
“0.2% – exactly the rate of fatality Dr. John Ionnidis of Stanford University projected.“
Further:
“The CDC estimates the death rate from COVID-19 for those under 50 is 1 in 5,000 for those with symptoms, which would be 1 in 6,725 overall, but again, almost all those who die have specific comorbidities or underlying conditions. Those without them are more likely to die in a car accident. And schoolchildren, whose lives, mental health, and education we are destroying, are more likely to get struck by lightning.”
And yes, the story is on ZH, but the numbers are from the CDC.
Oh boy, you are dashing a lot of people’s closely held beliefs here by posting real facts!
50% of our workforce IS non-essential. They were off for 2 months. Nobody starved. The lights stayed on. The toilet flushes. You can get anything your little heart desires delivered by Amazon.
That 50% represents entertainment… and it’s a pretty sad commentary on our species that we waste so many resources to that end.
That’s easy to say standing from the sidelines as part of the other 50%.
I am a partner in a two year old small business. Every partner in this endeavor has put not only their life savings, but two years worth of blood, sweat, and tears into making this a reality. It’s something we believe in and something we love. To have you – or anyone else – say that it doesn’t matter…that we don’t matter… is why people like myself and other small business owners get angrier by the minute.
The reality is, it doesn’t matter what that 50% represents. It could represent professional Tiddlywinks playing – I don’t care. What matters is that we cut millions of people off from their livelihoods because we were scared.
That’s bad enough but now we should be looking at the numbers and realizing that while we were scared then with so many unknowns, we no longer need to be scared. We should be working hand-over-fist to get the car out of the ditch and back on the road. But we’re arguing about bullshit because politics or something.
How would you – or anyone else feel if the rest of society showed up and built a fence around your house? And then when you complained, we all said “We’re scared of you; and you don’t do anything important to us so you can stay in there until we decide we are no longer scared.”
Thankfully, no one important is listening to you rantings here and so they will have exactly zero impact on the course of CV19 or associated measures.
The ‘amount’ of virus ingested is not the factor that determines the outcome. What kills is the immune system response, a cytokine storm, which is triggered by the virus. The process is similar to the anaphalyctic shock which causes death in some allergic reactions, a small amount of the invading pathogen is sufficient to set off such a storm. Hence the already immune compromised are the largest % of deaths in this pandemic.
“What kills is the immune system response, a cytokine storm, which is triggered by the virus.”
Even if that was the case, a greater amount of pathogen would be very unlikely not to trigger a greater “cytokine storm,” whatever that is. Immune systems, heck any evolutionary successful, resource constrained system, aren’t so completely devoid of ability to at least attempt to calibrate their response to the severity of the imposed stress, that you are ever likely to see a hard zero difference between the response to a single virus particle, versus several pounds of the stuff stuffed down into someone’s lungs.
Allergic reactions are absolutely not dose invariant. The most severely grass allergic may not need much of a dose to notice it, but you can’t kill them by bringing a blade of grass into their house. Something yo very well can, by having them jump around in the hay in a haybarn.
RE: “The ‘amount’ of virus ingested is not the factor that determines the outcome.”
This link, among others, suggests otherwise …
RE: “What kills is the immune system response, a cytokine storm, which is triggered by the virus.”
That is only true in some cases, and it is a cytokine storm that is thought to be a possible result of a larger initial inoculum (dose) of the virus that more quickly triggers an all-out response of the body’s defenses.
I don’t think masks are worth a darn, but when I go to the store I pull up my bandana out of courtesy for those who do.
Exactly… this is a question of manners, whether or not you think masks prevent transmission. People think being an asshole is some kind of badge of honor.
Precisely correct, Zardoz. It is simply being an asshole, pretending that we live all by ourselves out on the prairie in 19th century Kansas rather than in a modern society of 330 million people. Come to think of it, that is where I wish all these assholes would go!
Sally Yates did consider it to be a badge of honor to refuse a legal order by Trump. Sullivan probably thinks it is some kind of badge of honor to violate his job description and refuse to drop the Flynn case. #resistance
Some, particularly Democrat governors got rather draconian in their response to the pandemic. There were warnings of unrest if the shut downs went on too long and that is what has occurred in various places. In response to push back, some governors have threatened to prolong the shut down. This creates even more resentment among the population.
After being pent up for so long, numerous L.A. area residents hit the beaches and running trails, Memorial Day weekend, resulting in not so social distancing and varying degrees of using masks as required. Authorities shut down at least one of the trails for the remainder of the weekend.
So you’re saying the democrats made you an asshole?
Yeah my sister in law ticked me off yesterday, was in people’s faces without a mask even when asked not to. Problem is my little kids kept taking them off then she would be there 1 foot in their faces.
You can’t be serious. You’re citing a study with hamsters wearing masks in cages.
We are not in this together. I vehemently disagree with everything about this virus, including how contagious it is, the need to close down businesses, asymptomatic transmission and the need for SD + masks. Given this statement, WHY should I care?
As to all the harping and attempted shaming about the need to wear masks, it is BS! There have not been any controlled, lab studies where real asymptomatic transmission has been confirmed. I found this statement in a WHO document yesterday:
Asymptomatic transmission
An asymptomatic laboratory-confirmed case is a person infected with COVID-19 who does not develop symptoms.
There are few reports of laboratory-confirmed cases who are truly asymptomatic, and to date, there has been no documented asymptomatic transmission. This does not exclude the possibility that it may occur. Asymptomatic cases have been reported as part of contact tracing efforts in some countries.
https_://_www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200402-sitrep-73-covid-19.pdf
(This URL was not being displayed on a previous posting attempt, so I added a couple of “_”. Let’s see if that helps to at least get the URL displayed.
The question is -would you ever admit you were wrong? I suspect that would be no.
I was wrong for thinking the lockdown was a good idea at the time. Don’t get me wrong it was needed just not so soon. They should have let it run for another month to get everyone on board. The next lockdown will be very painful.
I don’t know anyone and I am guessing you don’t know anyone that has been affected by the virus. That shapes our views. If you go to New York and talk to someone that has personal experience their view will be different.
It doesn’t matter though. We will all have this thing at some point in the next 2 years.
You also quoted a study from almost 2 months ago. Information is changing quickly. The Washington Chorus cluster was from an asymptomatic person singing.
The date has nothing to do with anything. Do you have any reference to an actual controlled lab study proving asymptomatic is really possible? I’d wager that you don’t or you would have posted it already.
You have posted extensively here in the last few weeks and appear to think that posting volume somehow gives your viewpoints more validity. It doesn’t.
And yes, if you can show I am wrong in anything, I will accept that.
And no we are 6 months into a pandemic. There are no double blind controlled studies of on spread of this virus. Only data collected.
The FIRST sentence of your link states
“Mounting evidence suggests that the novel coronavirus can be transmitted from presymptomatic or asymptomatic individuals”
“Suggests” is no better than “I believe” and similar. It is not enough evidence to use as a rational for closing down economies, forcing people to remain in their homes or wear masks to go out.
But of course, you and others are not going to accept this lack of evidence because it conflicts with the narrative you want to believe in and to force on others.
It is called cognitive inflexibility. I think Jojo has it.
You should get the virus and then come back to talk to us about it. I am not wishing ill on you, but for someone with such a strong “opinion” you should back it up with real data.
Why do I have to be the experiment? Why aren’t labs worldwide producing actual science to backup the memes being propagated by the media, politicians, health officers and random posters across the web?
They are. You just refuse to believe it.
So you’ve chosen a definition of an ‘asymptomatic case’ that is almost a unicorn? A person that is infected and ‘NEVER shows signs of the disease’?
That is moronic – I don’t care where you found the definition, it is moronic. The general concept of asymptomatic transmission is infecting someone ‘during the early stages of the infection in which the carrier does not display symptoms’. That is necessarily NOT the same as ‘never displaying symptoms’ and is obviously a larger group of possible transmission vectors and and larger risk.
It’s fine to differ in opinion on courses of action to take to address the virus, but you have been disingenuous in your posts and statements for as long as I’ve seen them on here. Why twist yourself into rhetorical knots if you think your ideas are correct?
Go argue with the WHO. They are more qualified than your uninformed opinions.
Us humans don’t learn from others mistakes.
I believe mask represent a belief that the virus is bad. Not wearing a mask is another way of saying “the virus is not bad and I will be fine”.
Another thing to remember is that people don’t change without pain. Most of the country doesn’t even know anyone that’s been infected personally. When this virus personally hurts them in some way the pain will make them change their actions. Until that point it’s business as usual.
“Until that point it’s business as usual”
Just like all the other pandemics we have had. Don’t you get tired of scare mongering and living in fear? Do you wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say “Another crappy day in my life”?
Not at all actually.
I understand it’s real and will affect my life while actually doing more than I have done last year. If anything this has motivated me to hike and utilize my time more than normal.
I don’t think it is a hoax and I don’t think it’s going to kill us all. I live in reality that this is something we are going to have to deal with for years. It is pretty bad and is going to hurt a lot of people. It most likely won’t hurt me.
I think you are the one with the problem. Your view is so hard in one direction that you can’t even retain information that is in disagreement with your view. This thing is all over the world. Real non political information is available but the weakness is in your own mind. Opposing views just reinforce your view.
No. Not wearing a mask is another way of saying “the virus is not bad and you will be fine when I give it to you”.
Wearing masks does not provide much protection for the wearer, but it provides huge protection of other people FROM the wearer. In a recent study they put two cages of (I think) hamsters side by side, one with sick hamsters, the other with healthy hamsters. With no protection, 2/3 of the healthy hamsters got sick. With a fabric over the cage with the healthy hamsters, there was a slight protection, but half the hamsters still got sick. When they put the fabric over the sick hamsters, however, the transmission was dramatically reduced, and only 1/6 of the healthy hamsters got sick.
Understanding someone else’s view is key in understanding their mindset.
You stated your mindset on mask but some else will feel just as right with the opposite mindset. The emotional response is similar.
I try to see each side and leave my opinion out of it. Fear and pain are significant factors in talking about the virus. Areas that haven’t experienced the virus don’t want a reminder it exist(fear of unknown). Areas that have want to protect themselves from the pain of the virus(pain of known).
I personally believes this is where we are.
The reaction I gave above is one that I think is common, however it’s not really my reaction. What really goes through my head when someone refuses to wear a mask is that they are really saying “I want to keep Covid19 spreading so that we have to lock down again.” I also figure they are hoping that the November election takes place against a backdrop of rapidly growing cases and deaths.
A study showed that if 2/3 of people wear a mask it would be as effective as a lockdown, but if only 1/3 of the people wear a mask, it would have little to no effect. Thus, a few people pushing to keep cases growing can’t do it alone, but if enough do it, Covid cases will grow,and that’s why people encourage others to stop wearing masks.
That is sick thinking.
Isn’t there the Cow Palace in South Dakota where they could have their geezer-fest? Or perhaps Desantis should volunteer Florida in hurricane season…
…Demanding an answer on whether Republicans would be able to move forward with a fully-attended convention in August, Trump said that if North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper, a Democrat, could not commit to the allowance, the RNC would be reluctantly forced to move the convention and “all of the jobs and economic development it brings” to another state.
While the coronavirus pandemic could make it difficult for Trump to find another state willing to hold the mass event, another clear hurdle stands in the president’s way: the fact that few states wanted to host the event in the first place.
An article published by New York Magazine’s Intelligencer blog laid out the GOP’s struggle with the headline: “GOP Awards Its 2020 Convention to the Only City That Sorta Kinda Wanted It.”
At the time, Charlotte, which had previously hosted the 2012 Democratic National Convention, had been the only city to publicly pursue the convention, while other cities, including Philadelphia, San Antonio and Nashville, backed away from the potential bid.
The Corn Palace is in South Dakota.
There has to be a red state city somewhere that would want the current occupant of the WH and his sycophantic fans. Cheyene WY is nice – if you like rocks, dirt and wind. Hattiesburg MS is always pleasant in August. Hey, maybe Boise ID where they’d be the least well armed people there no matter what guns they carried!
Boise is a patch of blue in a sea of red. We have a Democratic Mayor.
How are we preparing for the next pandemic NOW ? Whatever or whenever it appears??
There will be big talk of future virus plans and funding. For about 3 years.
Then crickets. Democracy is reactive. Never proactive.
Not exactly.
You reinforced my point.
They talked about it. Obama even had some paperwork. That doesn’t help when it actually happens. We need actual things. Like PPE.
Nobody did anything about that.
How many times did Trump warn about it? Zero. Instead he cut CDC funding and trash talks the WHO. When the pandemic hit, he downplayed it.
Time to start blaming the current guy presumably in charge.
I agree he deserves the blame.
Hopefully they will learn from this.
It is bizarre that the self-sabotage of re-opening is embraced so heartily. You know, if you want Trump in a second term, you really should try to reduce transmission.
Masks, distancing and basic hygiene are the only way a lid can be kept on this.
By the way, Mexico City has had 8,000 excess deaths this year, with only 1800 official CV deaths.
And Trumps buddy, Duterte says….
….“I will not allow the opening of classes na dikit-dikit yung mga bata,” said Duterte in his weekly public address taped on Monday night.
[Translation: I will not allow the opening of classes where the kids will be beside each other.]
The President added it is useless to talk about the opening of new school year due to the magnitude of the virus in the country.
“Wala nang aral, laro nalang, unless I’m sure that they are really safe,” Duterte noted.
[Translation: No more classes, only play time, unless I’m sure that they are really safe.]
Indeed. The people refusing to wear masks are (whether they realize it or not) working hard to accomplish a rapidly growing case rate in Octobrer-November, and setting the stage for an election with a backdrop of increasing deaths.
Regarding photos with all the people in the pools this memorial Coming from the land of pools – what immediately came to me was all the piss and sheeat pieces from peoples asses in those pools Any chlorination of these pools that was done is long gone with all those in the pool
Sounds like a case study in progress.
It has always been that way. The chlorine and other chemicals simply cannot keep up with the numbers of people.
You could say that every water park on the planet is nothing but a very large petri dish of bodily fluids, bacteria, and viruses.
Yet despite that reality, there have only been a few isolated cases of disease and sickness tied (even if tenuously) to their operation.
In a properly operated public pool, the filtration system is always running, the chlorine level and pH of the water is always being monitored and chlorine and muriatic acid are being pumped in as needed to keep everything at proper levels. A properly chlorinated outdoor pool, where there’s lots of sunlight (which kills the virus on surfaces very quickly), should be the least likely place for coronavirus to spread.
When I was a younger man, I worked as a lifeguard at many public swimming facilities and I can tell you that the systems are designed to keep up with about half the number of bodies that you find in them on any given summer day. We controlled the chemicals, and were required to test the water several times a day, but were not allowed to introduce chemicals into the pool while there were swimmers present even if the tests showed it necessary – which they did most of the time.
I also lived in Atlanta when we had an outbreak of E. Coli linked (tenuously) to a large privately-owned water park.
As the story started – before they closed the park for cleaning – some local media conducted clandestine collections of water starting when the park opened and at various points throughout the day – from random areas. They had them tested by an independent lab and while the results were not so terrible at the beginning, by noon the water was teeming with all sorts of bacteria. The worst areas were the large shallow play pool and the lazy river.
There was never any proof that the outbreak started at the park, but they changed their processes and procedures so that people would feel better about the reality that swimming in a pool of water with thousands of other people means you’re also swimming with tons of bacteria, viruses, and everyone’s bodily fluids.
Sort of like swimming in an ocean, sea, lake, river…etc.