UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson sends Two Letter to Brussels the first seeking a delay, but the letter was not signed.
Boris Johnson has sent a request to the EU for a delay to Brexit – but without his signature. The request was accompanied by a second letter, signed by Mr Johnson, which says he believes that a delay would be a mistake.
The PM was required by law to ask the EU for an extension to the 31 October deadline after losing a Commons vote. EU Council President Donald Tusk tweeted that he had received the extension request.
A senior Downing Street source said that the hard copy and email copy of the letter would be conveyed by Sir Tim Barrow, the UK’s representative in Brussels.
The second letter from Mr Johnson – signed off this time – makes clear that he personally believes that a delay would be a mistake.
BBC Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg described the decision to send three documents as “controversial”, predicting “there will be a fight about whether Boris Johnson is trying to circumvent the court”.
She added: “This is heading straight for the court, and it may very quickly end up in the Supreme Court.”
Earlier, Mr Johnson rang European leaders, including Mr Tusk, to insist that the letter “is Parliament’s letter, not my letter”.
Parliament’s Letter
Indeed, this was parliament’s letter, and it was coerced.
That will be Johnson’s claim.
At a minimum it is a reasonable legal challenge as opposed to outright defiance.
Second Letter Snips
“The UK Permanent Representative will… submit the request mandated by the EU (Withdrawal) (No.2) Act 2019 later today. It is, of course, for the European Council to decide when to consider this request and whether to grant it.
“Although I would have preferred a different result today, the Government will press ahead with ratification and introduce the necessary legislation early next week. I remain confident that we will complete that process by 31 October.
“While it is open to the European Council to accede to the request mandated by Parliament or to offer an alternative extension period, I have made clear since becoming Prime Minister… that a further extension would damage the interests of the UK and our EU partners, and the relationship between us.
“We must bring this process to a conclusion so that we can move to the next phase and build our new relationship on the foundations of our long history as neighbours and friends in this continent.”
Tusk Studying Response
Lawsuits Coming
Lawsuits will hit the deck on Monday, October 21. It will take at least two days for the courts to issue a ruling.
The EU may respond first, denying the extension without reason.
One possible reason could be an election. But does the EU want to sit with Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn’s idea of negotiating an agreement then holding a referendum on it?
And if Johnson wins, which seems likely, he could then safely opt for No Deal.
Window to Remove Johnson
Assuming court delays take two days the calendar will read October 23.
There will be time, in theory for a motion of No Confidence followed by a caretaker government. That would put the calendar at October 25.
Johnson would likely refuse to resign.
Whether there would time for a legal challenge or emergency legislation at that point is uncertain. Add two more days of delays and my conclusion is no.
At that point there would be a Hard Brexit or Parliament could pass deal in the last week, without amendments.
Stopping No Deal
These absurd shenanigans by people claiming to want to stop No Deal very well could lead to No Deal.
Ironically, there is a 100% surefire way to stop No Deal, and deliver a good deal at that. All parliament had to do was vote on Johnson’s deal.
Mike “Mish” Shedlock
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Everything hinges on how much more deeply Bercow wants to interfere with the timetable of the inevitable outcome.
The speaker is ritually dragged to the chair on appointment because more than one got executed by the monarch. Methinks someone is going to have to drag him OUT of the chair this week if we’re not going to have all hell let loose on the streets. A hundred thousand people wearing EU berets versus an outbreak of tattooed fruitcakes with sticks and petrol bombs won’t be a pretty sight. God help us if this doesn’t get sorted this week.
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Johnson may very well rescind his extension request or get the EU to cooperate on a short ratification-only extension.
Otherwise the EU is gambling on an election after having negotiated a deal that it is comfortable with.
I agree an extension is likely – that is not the issue.
How long and for what purpose?
Those are the questions
The BBC, of course, is saying now an extension is the most likely outcome. That’s what the remainers and most of the media are gunning for. They want Brexit stopped in it’s tracks. They will do that by an extension, election and second referendum where the remainers controls the outcome. If the EU sees a no-deal on the horizon, they will grant this extension, there stand to loose a lot of money in a no-deal scenario. The question for Boris is, “WILL HE HAND TOUGH?” Will he stay in power and see this through, deal or no-deal. If he doesn’t, the Brexit party will split the conservative vote in a new election and a Labor-Lib Dem coalition government will take over. This is the plan the remainers are counting on to stop Brexit altogether.
Longest blimp collision in history. Who gives af anymore?
I voted Remain. But seeing how politicians are acting like this and wasting our tax money, it’s disgusting. People voted leave and it was the biggest democratic process. Simple is that to move on. Now delay after delay. Bring on the second referendum, I will OUT or No Deal!
FT provides rather unbiased analysis given that it caters more to business community:
….
A more likely route is for Downing Street to present the WAB implementation legislation to the House of Commons on Tuesday. The government would then hold two critical votes that day.
For the first, MPs would be asked to hold the landmark vote on the WAB, called a “second reading”. After Saturday’s setback, the government would likely portray this as the new and critical test of whether parliament supported Mr Johnson’s deal for leaving the EU.
For the second, MPs would be asked to vote on a “programme motion” stating that the WAB must go through all its parliamentary stages and get on to the statute book by October 31. This is the deadline by which Mr Johnson insists the UK must leave the EU.
If both votes pass, the government could amend the WAB at a later date to avoid the need for a meaningful vote altogether in the final stages of the Brexit process.
Will the ‘second reading’ of the WAB pass?
It is certainly possible. Careful reading of the way MPs voted on the Letwin amendment suggested Mr Johnson could win a second reading vote on the WAB by a slim margin. By remaining vague over whether he would ask for an extension to Article 50 of the EU exit process, Mr Johnson would also compound MPs’ fears that the alternative to backing his pact was a no-deal Brexit.
But many MPs will resist the idea of restricting debate on such a complex and important piece of legislation as the WAB to an October 31 deadline. They will want longer. And if Mr Johnson is forced into a three-month Article 50 extension, the WAB could be debated until well into the new year.
Where does this leave possible outcomes?
The chances of no-deal Brexit on October 31 still looks quite remote. This is because Mr Johnson is almost certain to lose any legal challenge over his need to abide by the Benn Act. Once he loses, the EU will not refuse an extension to Article 50 because it does not want to be blamed for no-deal.
…..
“the EU will not refuse an extension to Article 50 because it does not want to be blamed for no-deal”
That may be true, but it isnt the primary reason for wanting an extension. More important than that by a long way is they need the money.
And more important than the money is the EU is a stepping stone to a European super-state, and an undemocratic one at that. If anyone can show the people that there is a decent alternative to that paradigm, then that plan will be in serious trouble, and that is why those behind the EU will not let that happen.
If the remainers succeed in obfuscating Brexit which is probably pretty likely at this point then I think they’ll also succeed in driving the UK into recession.
But I think I’ve reached the point of ceasing to care now.
We’re all going into recession, some already are.Uk unemployment figures grew by 20,000 + in the latest figures. Wrong time of year for a growth in unemployment.
It is Remain that will now be blamed due to the uncertainty they have deliberately engendered, on purpose.
No deal & Remain will now be blamed.
Stringing it out any longer with negative consequences and Remain will be blamed.
Hillary Benn is not a patch on his father.
Stay in the EU and Brexit Party wreak havoc, Remain will now be blamed.
Leave and there be a disaster blame will be split. One for Leave and one for Remain damaging the economy before.
This stalemate can go on until March at the latest, when the EU budget is to be approved. Johnson can then threaten to veto it if anymore extensions will be offered.
The only option left to remainers will be vote of no confidence, an option that they are clearly loathe to do, and not just because it would make that imbecile Corbyn the PM.
That may put it off until the next election (which there would be enormous pressure to bring forward), but no further. Brexit is as certain as death itself, albeit better for the cost of living.
If the EU gives a long extension (at least a few months) right away, the opposition would be free to take down the minority government. Elitist remainers (LibDems, rebel Tories, Blairites, etc.) would be a in a good position to push Corbyn away because not even a caretaker government would be needed. However, it contradicts EU communication, and it seem premature anyway.
The denial of any extension would play into the hands of Johnson but it would also strengthen Corbyn in his position. Elitist Remainers would be destroyed on an instant. Nonetheless, this is not in EU interests.
I am speculating but I expect a short extension (a few weeks). The EU will claim that they don’t intervene into British politics. Tricks will continue in Parliament with a caretaker government still in the cards.
DP: You said “The denial of any extension would play into the hands of Johnson but it would also strengthen Corbyn in his position. Elitist Remainers would be destroyed on an instant. Nonetheless, this is not in EU interests.” I agree but it got me thinking, just what is the EU interests? Clearly they are playing a game with Brexit, they are certainly manipulating the situation, but to what end? Their own articles of Union clearly give Article 50 as a right to membership, yet now that it has been invoked they are using every tool they have to enable internal conflict inside the UK, I get the sense that they are in a no win situation and having become an elite institution are fighting for the survival of their flawed politically correct confederacy, since there is now central power in that government who is pulling the strings? It is easy to say the ECB and bankers, but who? I am thinking Merkel is the Éminence grise behind all this delay.
On the lighter side, I stumbled upon the Netflix original content “The Laundromat” last night after signing off here, only got about 1 hour into it before I had to sleep, for those unfamiliar it is about a widow who is shafted by a fraudulent insurance company and the power of off shore entities and vast wealth that leads her to discover the real nature of wealth and fraud and the Panama Papers situation and a lot more, it is part tongue in cheek (the narrations anyway) to keep it entertaining, but a massive accusation of how the rich use us and the laws to make the world serfs. I though it might make a nice break from Brexit for a while since clearly there is going to be no movement there till at least Tuesday, if we could watch the program (for those with Netflix anyway) and discuss it.
Britain is an obstacle in the way of EU integration for decades. I think the EU wants to remove the obstacle permanently. This is their main objective.
I dont understand why Mish calls this a good deal. It could be considered worse than May’s deal in the sense that it breaks UK in parts with one part – NI staying in EU… plus all other things – 30+ billion payment, following EU policies, no way to get rid of it unilateraly, etc… it is not a clean break.
The EU Parliament could be the next stumbling block.
They have to also ratify the “deal” but they will only start that process once UK has agreed it. Not sure of precise dates but I understand that EU Parliament doesn’t from Monday 28th October to 14th November. If they don’t pass the deal this week then it will be middle November, at earliest before they do.
Rees-Mogg said Government would try again to have a meaningful vote on Boris’s deal on Monday 21st October. So far, Speaker Bercow has said won’t be allowed to happen. Next option is for Government to get the full Withdrawal Bill passed and use that as a Meaningful Vote but that could take several days for full debates etc.
Lots more twists and turns yet. Come on Boris, you can do it.
Macron can end this tomorrow. Hopefully, he will.
I suspect they are going to gently insist that before any extension is considered, and for how long, first the Bill has to go through Parliament. And they want it to pass, they want to get on. There will be hard negotiations thereafter but if and when Boris gets a GE and a working majority, No Deal will be on the table and the EU has already decided to negotiate in better faith. Because if the UK is indeed leaving, they prefer the vision that has Britain still a vibrant part of EU economy and culture, not a hostile free-trade enemy on their doorstep. Boris has held out an olive branch in this regard. The only sticky wicket left is this Rotten Parliament. Hopefully it will soon be swept away.
Sticky wicket? This Rotten Parliament reminds me more of a certain steel reinforced concrete bunker with raving madmen skulking in it up to the very last day. Ordering about armies that don’t exist, writing their own epitaphs, and testing their poisons on their dog Blondie.
See what I mean? You have just compared UK MPs to Hitler. This is gross.
Nope, what is gross is that it is TRUE!
Tell me how many millions of Jews and gypsies, have these MPs exterminated? How many slave labourers have they worked to death? How many wars have they unleashed? How can anyone think that your comparison of our legislature with Hitler is anything but unhinged?
Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. All in 10 years.
About 1M Iraqis dead, majority non-political.
Chaos in north Africa, awful consequences in Libya.
There wasn’t a war Labour didn’t want to join.
At least they voted down Syria after Labour were ousted.
Let’s not listen to the population but ok to spread carnage at nearly every opportunity.
Purge!
At times your knowledge of history is appauling, Millibrand, Labour leader led the charge on Syria.
Only because he was opposition leader.
You stated that ” they voted down Syria after Labour were ousted”. I pointed out that Ed Milliband led the charge against it. Are you saying that if he’d been PM he would have bombed Syria? If so you really are barmy.
Yes. He would have come under the same pressure as Cameron from Obama and would have got the vote through with Labour + Tory war mongers.
Labour would have largely followed the leader. They voted it down as opposition. Labour sheep inventives completely change when they are in power.
The system has hysteresis.
He doesn’t see it, and won’t.
These wars all took place with participation of EU member states. EU plays the role of defence, in that participants are granted to hide behind EU status of “peace lovers” , “the gods of peace” as Juncker would have it. EU buffers the effect of these wars, it takes advantage of the displaced populations at the expense of european people. If there were no outlet these wars would likely not have started. EU uses the misfortune created to further its own control, whether merging of security services, creation of a single border, interfering in national migration policy, and more.
I have lived in many of these countries. Remainers, the above is what you are and what you support. It isn’t clever.
Nefarious, yes. Blair was signed-up and where we are now is because of his megalomania and Brown offering no vote on Lisbon.
I think you will find that these wars all took place under the auspices of NATO, not the EU.
Because the EU has not yet done such things we cannot make a comparison? The non democratic governance is setting up for any potential disaster, keeping in a nation that voted democratically to leave is just as bad as marching on the Sudetenland or annexing Austria. And the reality is if they can do this and there is no legitimate way out of it by the members they can do anything, including liquidations. For some loss of freedom and sovereignty is just as bad.
Dear God, what you have just said is that no the EU is not as evil as the Nazis but it will be. The EU have made two deals with the UK to facilitate exit. Is that not an inconvenient fact for your argument? I repeat do you stand by your assertion that the UK legislature is as bad as Hitler?
You are a manipulator and not very good at it, when I referred to the Sudetenland and the annexation of Austria Hitler had not yet committed the atrocities he did later in European history and do please not that from an American’s perspective your continent has been responsible for every atrocity between Columbus discovering the new world and My Lai, and even that American war crime would not have happened had the French not subjugated Southeast Asia and turned over the burden of protecting South Vietnam to the US.
You conflate what I said to mean that the EU is the exact equivalent of Nazi Germany, what I was saying was not that and you goddamn well know it. That makes you a lying provocateur. I said that the seeds THE FUCKING SEEDS!!!!!! of the Nazi state are alive and well in the EU, because of your unwillingness to simply accept that the UK population decided to leave, you are unwilling to admit for a single second that anything could be wrong with the clusterfuck EU and therefore all British who voted to leave are just wrong, clinging to historic desire to rule over what they see as lesser people.
I have news for you and your deluded world view Avid, you are the one in the wrong, you and your politically correct bullshit and forcing people to remain where they clearly voted not to be. And I will support those people even at the point of a gun because that is what Americans do, they do what is RIGHT! Fuck the arguments about who did what to who 500 years ago or even last month, you are breaking your own laws by trying to force the UK into remaining a member of an organization they said they want to leave, and by god I will take you down if you stand in my way!
You are a sneak a cheat a liar and a troll. Go to hell and never address me again! If you do I will make you pay asshole.
If only you were correct. The concentration camps opened within months of Hitler becoming Chancellor. The Nazi’s rounded up all opponents, KPD, SDP, and union activists. Have you heard of the Night of the Long Knives? This was the night when the SS rounded up the socialist element in National Socialism as represented by Gregor Strasser and the SA leader Ernst Rohm and shot them in their thousands. For good measure they also topped a couple of Wehrmacht Generals who were thought to be a danger to the third Reich. The extermination program for German untermensch was well underway-this eugenic policy meant that the Nazi’s exterminated all sufferers from Downs Syndrome and mental impairment. Have you heard of Krystalnacht? The Nuremburg laws? You have to ignore all of the above to make your statement about the Sudetenland and Austria. This makes you appallingly ignorant or a Fascist apologist. Neither are a badge of honour. Please do make me pay if you can.
A) yes Dachau opened within months, of Hitler’s rise to power but the camps did not become extermination centers till the war was well under way 9 years later.
B) NATO was not formed till after WWII, “The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was created in 1949 by the United States, Canada, and several Western European nations to provide collective security against the Soviet Union.”
C) you can dodge the facts all you like but the EU is incapable of doing right, it is incapable of doing much of anything and in that power vacuum in which there has to be unanimous consent of all members all they manage to get done is giving away other people’s money, there is always consent to get a freebie. Already we see far right political parties rising in member states even as other members are sinking into a morass of riots and depression, tens of millions feel the EU was a mistake and many more will as soon as the economy goes into recession. They will only be held in the union by coercion and force. And you see NOTHING wrong with that at all. In fact you see nothing wrong on any level, there is nothing to fix or address, those people who wish to leave are just malcontents right? The EU is fine the way it is!
I wish the US would sever relations or at least minimize them to the point where they no longer affect us, and I promise that though I have been a democrat all my life I will now ditch them because they are the same groupthink mindset of politically correct hillbillies that have ruined Europe.
And the Night of the Long Knives, the Nuremburg laws? Krystalnacht? the extermination of children with downs syndrome? Once again you ignore facts and make a limp point about Dachau. Pitiful.
You are the one that as usual twists what is said in the most disrespectful ways possible, I said and it was a KEY point that the EU has the SEEDS of the same ground from which Hitler sprouted, because who can stop such a man when it takes a unanimous decisions to get anything at all done politically? The only power in the EU is the blind stumbling bureaucracy and the ECB. Sooner or later it will give rise to another euro madman. Europe has always been the breeding grounds for extremism and parliamentary frustration that guarantees nothing can ever get done when it needs to to stop such catastrophes.
Avid, I do not mind debate, but you are fundamentally a dishonest person and you know it, my bet is you are a russian troll on the farm outside of St. Petersburg, but if you keep fucking with people here in crude and rude ways you are going to answer for it.
Factless argument and more threats. Do you dress in black with silver piping?
By the way, in the US we do not have a ban on comparing people to Hitler, I know in the EU simply saying the guy’s name is enough to get you in trouble, we say if the shoe fits wear it. Burying history is the surest way to make sure you repeat it.
Hitler was about as democratic as Remainers MPs who have a Leave constituency.
The Remainers are not murderous thugs who intend to wipe out whole nations are they? Don’t you think you are being a tad hysterical?
They are wiping out the nation state and the ability of a people of a nation state to determine its future direction.
Dont you understand?
But they are not herding people into gas chambers are they?
For remainers (or at least those opposed to no-deal), there was no downside to not voting on Johnson’s deal and attempting to get another extension. Right now, there are 3 possible situations:
Extension leaves open the possibility of remain, whereas the first two do not. So long as that door is open, it’s actually quite logical for remainers to push for continued extensions so long as they don’t pay a political price. However, if the EU declines to kick the can down the road then this will leave Parliament with a choice between No Deal and Johnson’s deal. With the choice between these two options, Johnson’s deal almost certainly has the votes, as Mish made clear in one of his previous posts.
Like May, Johnson had attempted to frame the debate between his deal and no deal. However, there was always a third option, as we found out earlier today when Parliament refused to vote on his deal. The EU is the only party right now that can remove that option.
Once that option is removed, Johnson’s deal will likely pass unless remainers can pull some sort of magical caretaker government out of a hat.
You are right, he attempted the same thing as May. It gets closer every time. It seems Remainers have to take down this government before the deal can be voted on.
Well what you point out is the actual crux and has been all along. You say “….IF THERE IS NO POLITICAL PRICE.” Well, clearly there will be such a price since the majority (at least in England) voted leave, and it has been their plan since day one to make leaving so unpalatable to the majority that they can shift public opinion to a remain vote in a second referendum. To paint a picture of the independent future so bleak that the people beg them for a chance to undo the Article 50 application. In this they need a “No Deal” Brexit.
But, you also say “…if the EU declines to kick the can down the road…” and that implies very strongly that it is the EU making the decisions not the remainers in the UK, nothing the remainers do can be done without the acquiescence of the EU, so it really is up to the EU to keep dangling that chance to remain, but, as we all know and you point out, if the EU sees no chance of winning and keeping Britain as a docile milk cow then they will opt for a friendly UK rather than a hostile one, they are larger, more mercantile, and have myriad other problems, so they may be motivated to end the stalemate in Parliament, but the reality is we just don’t know right now, and neither do the remainers, so they will continue to function as if they can get yet another lengthy delay till the EU indicates solidly that October 31 is a hard deadline. That was why the deal was not ratified or rejected yesterday.
In fact, the remainers in the UK are more than happy to have a hard Brexit because they now need to deliver on the promise that life will be bleak under Johnson and the conservative threat to get out come what may, and lacking clear guidance from the EU they will push for a hard Brexit assuming that is what the EU wants, when it is likely the EU can’t afford that. We should know by tomorrow afternoon what the EU position is, any later will be a defacto decision to stay the course of delay and attrition. But, what has been remarkably stable so far has been that if there were a second referendum tomorrow the outcome would likely be the same, there has been no real attrition in more than 3 years of game playing.
What the EU is really testing here is the power to break up a member state. Will the UK hold, or will the EU? Because clearly the majority in England want to leave basically no matter what.
Time to break-up.
Implement proper policies and what’s left will survive and prosper and won’t spill blood quite so often.
Let it be.
Poland and Hungary could easily vote against another Brexit extension.
As a Hungarian, I disagree. These governments are barking from the pocket of German industries.
If they are doing the bidding (barking from the pockets) of German industry then the direction they get from that industry may well be that one of the smaller EU players like Hungary be the fall guy for a veto. Merkel and her enterprising nation have to work with a freed UK and will not want to be the one the remainers blame for the knife in the back of a veto to any more delay. She and the EU are on a tightrope, they do not want to appear to be interfering in the internal politics of a member state, even if that is exactly what they are doing. To give the appearance of influencing the outcome of an Article 50 application against the will of the voters of a member state would send chills down the spines of other member states and business investment that would see this as heavy handed.
So who will be the patsy for a veto? Orban or PIS in Poland? Or will they surprise us with an Estonia or Italy?
May still be the case, the largest foreign investor in Hungary was UK.
Both Poles and Hungarians joked they would work together to steal horses and that the EU has a lot of stables. This was in the public domain.
Forgive me, but it does seem a bit rich to see the Prime Minister roundly criticized for not signing a letter parliament told him to send, while the same parliament exhibits total disdain for the will of the majority of people as expressed in the referendum. The Prime Minister is expected to abide by the will of Parliament, but Parliament is not expected to abide by the will of the people. The hypocrisy is nauseating.
Let’s be honest, this isn’t about negotiating a “better” Brexit deal – this kabuki dance is about throwing enough sand in the gears to undo the referendum at all costs….people marched in London against Brexit complaining that they’re not being listened to… Sorry, but yes they are! The bloody Brexit referendum passed…
The remainders know that once the UK leaves the EU and people see that the sun still comes up in the morning and life goes on, there will be zero appetite to jump back in the EU!
This has been and is about obfuscation, reversal of vote and putting financial interests over the will of the people. Almost every trick and tactic has been tried; reverse psychology, fearmongering and most of all, sending a message to prevent this from happening ever again. Most insulting is of course, claiming that people ‘didn’t fully understand what they were voting for’.
Aided and abetted by the media, all these combined forces of the financial interest groups from London, the corporate lobbyists and the might of the EU elite….that’s Brexit for you. And it’s not over.
So I agree, it’s rather nauseating.
exactly right…
Complains that Johnson didn’t sign the letter and yet none about the fact that the delays are nothing more than a ploy to redo (and hopefully) reverse the vote…
The only time the people didn’t fully understand what they were doing was when the UK joined EU…it cuts both ways…
I don’t know, but I suspect his not signing will prove a masterstroke. There is no Law that can compel consent without compelling, at which point it becomes null in treaty law – as per Mish’s prior post on that. But more importantly, he’s going to keep going up in popularity as he displays resilience, cunning, panache and determination. And the more they thwart him, the better he’ll do in the upcoming GE. That Hulk analogy, which admittedly felt silly, seems increasingly apropos.
Agree totally….
If it was so important to Parliament that the letter be signed, parliament should have explicitly said so. But, they didn’t. The Prime Minister dutifully complied with Parliament’s exacting terms to the letter (no pun intended)…
It’s: say what you mean and mean what you say….
It’s now abundantly clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that this is about ‘re-voting’ the referendum (and re-voting again and again until the ‘right’ result is achieved).
The remainers spit in the eye of democracy. They’re obstructionists of the purest form exhibiting a callous disregard for the will of the people. There is NO DEAL they will accept…none…other than a re-vote with the result to stay in the EU.
To now protest and bitch that ‘they’re not being listened to’ is beyond galling. Really? Do they realize that they lost the referendum?! That loss apparently counts for nothing other than showing that “the people are stupid – they need to be stopped….”
The not knowing what they were doing when they joined, that is true, the common market was a good idea when it was instituted, so was Schengen as long as it only applied to member states citizens, but the creation of the EU as a very weak political and voluntary monetary union was a gigantic error. Or should I say plot. I was sad when the UK joined the EU and relieved when they retained their pound as some semblance of sovereignty. I was happy when my own motherland Ireland rejected the Treaty of Lisbon and upset ever since when they were blackmailed into both political and monetary union in the EU on a second vote.
This is why a second vote cannot be allowed in Britain, it is that lack of respect for the first vote and the voice of the people, the vote again and again till you get it right mentality that allows for blackmail, propaganda, to paint a bleak picture of what life will be like outside the union, in the case of Ireland they wanted no part of it, till the GFC and and prospects of a nation in bankruptcy with no lifelines. Where was the lifeline from the continent when they were treated as slaves in their own lands pretty much since William of Orange sailed?
One day my relatives there will wake to the knowledge they have been enslaved just as they were for 800 plus years under the power of the king. They are remarkably resilient and furiously independent once they understand that they are threatened. For now it is the UK we are discussing, and one thing that the remainers and EU seem to not understand or ignore is that England voted heavily to leave. A second referendum might well again pass in the provinces but not in England. This is a direct threat to the stability and integrity of the UK itself. It is one thing I strongly disagree with the US democrats in congress about, it was right of the US to step in and promise support to an ally we are so closely linked to since it is manifest that the EU would rather see a breakup of the UK than a successful Article 50. I loathe everything about Trump but I agree with his stance on Brexit and the UK. And any other member state that wants to leave for that matter. Europe is stronger as a cooperative group of nations and allies, the EU is not, and let me remind you that Merkel grew up in East Germany and does not have the same understanding of the oppression of the Soviet overlords the west does. She would rather deal with Satan than oppose him. And that also is at the roots of all this, it is Putin’s goal to disrupt alliances and cohesion among western allies, just look what he has done with Turkey.
Amen brother!
The obstructionists pushing for another bite at the apple only show their complete disdain for the democratic process. To them, it’s not about finding a way to honor the results of a very close referendum. It’s about finding a way to dishonor the results such that people are forced to re-vote.
They claim they want an extension. This is not an extension – this is YET ANOTHER EXTENSION. And the dishonest lot of them have not the balls to come out and say as much. They’d rather mouth a bunch of soothing words about ‘a better deal’ and ‘not rushing into things’ and ‘the economic world will collapse’, etc. etc….
Why not dissolve parliament and hold free elections….No, can’t do! Why, because the remainers know they’ll get torched.
If the UK’s economy is the major concern, any 7th grader could tell you that the uncertainty of the unknown is 10 times worse than certainty of being out.
This process reveals to ALL who choose to see what the remainers truly think of the democratic process. To them, voting is a fraud. It is a tool one uses in the furtherance of one’s own stated aims and wants. When it comes out right, it’s to be honored. If it comes out ‘wrong,’ it’s to be ignored and re-voted until it comes out right.
Welcome one and all to the facade that democracy….!
Well, he was forced to comply, regardless of his signature, he did so.
I’ve never witnessed anything like this, ever before…more so than anything else, I just want this to be over with. And clearly, so does the majority of people.
I’ve never had any faith in the EU or Macron, nor any respect for either. Perhaps they earn some by rejecting the extension to force the HMG to get it over with. Get it done, for the people’s sake (and for fuck’s sake)!
I agree. From what I can tell, he seems to be in perfect compliance with the law. Did the Benn Bill specify that he had to personally sign it? I doubt it. Did it say that he couldn’t send a recommendation that it be denied? Again, I doubt it. Can the EU accept the request as submitted? I’m sure they can. Thus, I don’t see anything for a legal challenge.
No the bill did not state that he had to sign it though they will argue that is assumed. They cannot legislate insincerity can they? But, as I recall there was speculation that the opposition leaders in Parliament would have a government civil servant send such a request for delay, if that was acceptable then almost anything goes. What meaning can Benn have if it could be satisfied by a member of HMG civil service in lieu of the PM?
Herkie, so long as the request is one that the EU can accept, why does it matter who signed it? The point of the Benn Bill was to have a request for extension sent, and one was sent, and the one that was sent appears to be efficacious, regardless of whether Johnson signed it or not.
We’ll know in a few hours whether the missing signature will even matter. If I understand correctly, all 27 heads of state of the memberstates have to UNANIMOUSLY agree to an extension. Place your bets right now, if you’re at all confident that’s going to happen….
I am not sure they can accept it, because it did not come on behalf of the UK Government (the memberstate) but rather from Parliament.
They will find a patsy to veto, Poland, maybe Hungary, could even be Varadkar himself directing representatives in the Council to veto, and I think that is possible since he stated he wanted the deal he was so instrumental in working out. If he was sincere then why would he want to delay his own negotiated deal with Johnson? What all this speculation leads to is that it is clear that the remainers in Parliament are not in fact the power behind remain, it is the EU exercising this power using the UK remainers as proxies.
The Irish govt has been dropping hints since yesterday that they will likely veto the extension. Today, Varadkar himself has all but said it: https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit-countdown/2019/1020/1084513-brexit-reaction/
They are going to insist that the Bill be voted on before deciding on any extension. So that’s Oct 28th when they all meet together again.
That would mean a hard no deal Brexit. If the EU says we will not extend till there is legislation on a deal that the remainers are delaying then they will have nothing to extend for on the 28th any more than they do now. As long as they are not signaling that this is shit or get off the pot time the remainers will continue to stop legislation and a vote on the deal. The deadline will come and go and the UK will be out and it might already be too late to salvage the deal as Johnson negotiated. Yet any amendments only require further extensions from the UK and EU.
Then again this already happened with May right? I see Leo Varadkar as wanting this deal to cement his legacy in Irish history because he thinks it will probably lead to reunification of the island. I think he will veto any delay, the EU has been asked to extend by the UK – signature or no, so they have to make a decision, claiming they need to see UK legislation (a parliamentary approval of the deal) is stalling. In that stalling they are encouraging the remainers and they know it, if there is no vote to delay then there can be no veto of it.
What if we get to the 28th, EU offers extension but Johnson refuses on the basis that he never personally asked for one.
Then they are stuck as they don’t have time to remove Johnson by then.
“Johnson Requests Delay But Doesn’t Sign The Letter”
What a 14-year-old thing to do. “Nah! Nah! You can’t make me!” is so sad in a supposedly respected position.
I actually admire his responsibility to the job given to him by the voters. Not often do you see a politician who actually does the job he was instructed to do by the people. And don’t forget article 51, which might prove to be of great significance in this entire charade.
Nine and three quarters really, you are too kind.
Funny, remainers sound to me like the sullen teenager who won’t/can’t seem to leave their parents’ house & live on their own. REAL mature!
Sure, signing ones name to something one has been forced to do, and on something one does not agree with on principle is a sure sign of an adult. Sure.
Smart: if they take him to Court for thwarting the spirit of the Law (he most certainly hasn’t thwarted the letter of it – pun intended!), then the Court will compel him to sign if they toe the Remainer line. At which point the letter is null in Treaty Law as per Mish’s prior post. Check mate (at least on that issue).
As Macron said last week, people keep underestimating Boris. They do so at their peril. If EU tries to play him too much, he’ll find a way to exit on No Deal and squeeze them bad. They want good relations with UK now and he has offered to give them that.
Hush! Looks like Boris is in danger of becoming a true statesman, someone of great value and stature in both UK and Europe.
Why should he waste the 2 seconds it would take to sign it? He’s complied with the parliamentary requirement. That’s the end of the matter.
14 year old’s are often in the position of being told what to do. In this case though the Parliament has overstepped it powers and the separation of powers, they are in effect overriding the government’s ability to negotiate. They are assuming powers they do not have. If not signing leaves open the possibility that the request was not binding in law then of course that is the logical thing to do when being coerced into an action that was not legal to start with.
Childish teentrums of this sort, is all that’s left for the arbitrary rulers of the once was West, in order for them to keep up attempting to sucker their increasingly clueless, uncritical and reliably indoctrinated designated underlings, into falling for the scam that arbitrary rule and rulers are somehow made more legitimate by these kinds of childish attempts at pretending The West still enjoys some meaningful rule of law.
It’s analogous to how the same arbitrary rulers of The West insist their clueless arbitrariness is somehow made more legitimate by prefacing it by “studies show” or “scientists say”, rather that the equally valid, or invalid, “God says” which our Muslim superiors prefer.
It has all gotten very silly.
You have a Parliament where the majority were voted in on a mandate the leave the EU, but who lied to their electorate and are now voting to remain.
You have a biased speaker allowing Parliament to undertake government business.
You have Remainer MPs trying to tell us that No Deal is bad for the UK when if you look at the facts, No tithe payments, reciprocal tariffs, government working for the people etc freed to make trade deals in our own interest, you have to conclude that is economically beneficial.
You have a supreme court making what ever law it likes up to overturn the will of the people.
You have people who just took part in a people’s vote, marching around calling for another people’s vote in order to overturn the will of the people.
Such is the cognitive dissonance in remainer land.