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MishTalk TV #5: Central Bank Divergence and What It Means

Divergence

  • The Fed plans to hike 6 times in two years.
  • The Bank of England took a baby step hike.
  • The ECB may not hike for years.

“It’s a raging inflation inferno right now” says Chris.” We may not see positive real rates again in our lives”.

We also discuss demographics, housing, and flaws in the measurement of inflation.

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24 Comments
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Christoball
Christoball
4 years ago
Good video. I wish I understood the bond market.
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago

The Fed’s central worry is not to
upset the markets is very true. We are in a MMT world in the US, the EU and
China which includes 75% of the world. I don’t like MMT in general but I can
live with MMT light because we don’t have much choice for the moment with the
Covid effects .A Gold Standard worked in a 19th Century setting but
probably won’t now. Perhaps cryptos are the answer but for that I can’t say but
it is an alternative maybe.  For the ECB
no one expects them to raise rates substantially because if they do the EU
breaks apart. What Mish said about us following Japan where asset prices
gradually wasting down to reasonable levels is what the Central Banks are hoping
for, a gradual decline that hurts the least amount and of course I would like
that too but unfortunately for that you need a stable international situation which
Japan had but we probably won’t have. For the EU vs the US just compare the
S&P 500 to the MSCI EUROPE (MSCI) and guess who will come up on top.

Good video! Thanks.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
If the Fed truly does hike a significant amount, then the US dollar will strengthen immeasurably against the Euro and any other currency that doesn’t similarly hike because money will flow here like crazy for the yields. Gold priced in US dollars will also likely fall (but appreciate vs the Euro and other currencies).
Scooot
Scooot
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
“Gold priced in US dollars will also likely fall (but appreciate vs the Euro and other currencies).”
It looks as if Gold went up more often than it fell in the last hiking cycle so I wouldn’t be so sure, particularly as the Fed is so behind the curve. 
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Hikes would also drive dollar-starved foreign dollar-denominated debt holders into US dividend-paying equities too. It’s already a driver for the S&P now, I believe.
Roadrunner12
Roadrunner12
4 years ago
I have been of the belief that the Fed will never raise interest rates, quite simply because they cant with all the debt outstanding. Going forward, I expect continued higher energy and food costs. I believe that these increased costs were coming one way or another but I expect them to be brought forward by climate change politics. Inflation is interesting because this is possibly the only reason the Fed raises rates although I believe the odds are still small.
The politics coming forward will be interesting as climate change politicians deal with the reality of their agenda.
Biden blaming companies for increased costs. Compare to reasoning for increased costs in Europe.

“For Dimitri Vergne, a sustainability policy officer at the European Consumer Organisation (BEUC), the energy crunch doesn’t undermine the EU’s green push but actually reinforces its whole point.

“It’s a clear call for us to accelerate the shift to a more renewables-based energy system. It’s actually our dependence on fossil fuels, like petrol and natural gas, which makes our energy bills much more expensive,” he told Euronews.”

RonJ
RonJ
4 years ago
“The Fed plans to hike 6 times in two years.”
Someone said no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.
RunnerDan
RunnerDan
4 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Exactly.  The Fed hikes once, market goes down, Fed bows down and says “so sorry, soo sorry, please come back!”, Fed then comes up with excuses, using mumble bumble terms, as to why they must abandon rate hikes.
thimk
thimk
4 years ago
The worlds central bank’s balance sheets are still growing ( except maybe Canada ) .   Plenty of liquidity sloshing around  . When this covid pig in the python passes things will change . It will be interesting to see markets reaction to a potentially  lack luster holiday retail  sales. I think we were headed into a slowdown prior to covid only to be postponed by massive liquidity injections.  I believe that the  feds really feel that inflation will be subdued , but not in the short term.  Take a look at Turkey to see how  chronic low interest rates effects an  economy . Erdogan  is promising to compensate Lira depositors an inflation adjustment. He also doubled  the minimum wage .               
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
4 years ago
Chris, thanks for mentioning China.  It will be a major story 2022.  
A “Crash” (taking a year or so) vs. “Multi year drawdown”.
Put me down for Crash.  1) Too much leverage.  2) What Wall Street wants*
*Easier to get emergency “no one saw this coming” bailouts + they would appreciate a kitchen sink quarter … or four, before back to business as usual (big bonuses).  A multi year drop would mean years of small / no bonus and retail would leave for a long long time.  Coming out of the GFC retail’s “never again” did not last long.  The relentless uptrend sucked them back in majorly.
Rip the band-aid off.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
4 years ago
Fairly valued real estate in a decent growth market,  financed  with 30 year money locked  in here….is like a license to print your own money. 
dbannist
dbannist
4 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
If….you can find anything for sale.

I have the cash to buy three rentals in 2022.  Been looking for 6 months, nothing.

FromBrussels
FromBrussels
4 years ago
Reply to  dbannist
with mortgage payments lower than rents, the clientèle for your rentals will be of a rather mediocre quality I am afraid …risky business I d say , it is not all gold that shines … I know what I am talking about…    
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
4 years ago
Reply to  dbannist
Cash is good. Bide your time and find the right deal. It will come to you, I’m pretty sure.
Scooot
Scooot
4 years ago

Thanks Mish, very interesting. It all depends on inflation now, if it continues it will be very difficult to tame it. They won’t be able to hike enough to stop it because that hurts the general public as well as the actual price rises. The public are going to blame the politicians leading up to elections.The UKs small 0.15% hike is said to add £15 per month to the average mortgage. This on top of the increased energy costs, increased food prices etc. In addition, from April a National Insurance increase of 1.25% for individuals and businesses which was announce last September kicks in. All of which adds to pressure for higher wage demands.Maybe some of this will take the heat out of inflation, but if it doesn’t the hole the central banks have dug themselves will keep on growing.

StukiMoi
StukiMoi
4 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
“…They won’t be able to hike enough to stop it because that hurts the general public…”
“The general public” is not hurt by paying less for stuff.
Of course, neither do “the general public” pay lobbyists to tell politicians nonsense; about the general public being hurt unless those who do pay lobbyists are able to burglarize them under every trivially harebrained pretense under the sun.
Scooot
Scooot
4 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
“The general public” is not hurt by paying less for stuff.”
I thought I’d said they’d be hurt by paying more for stuff? As in interest on mortgages, cost of living etc
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
4 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
People paid less for a roof over their head during Volcker’s reign than they do now. Pre Fed, houses were simply paid for cash. From income deprived from being a Cowboy, which can’t possibly have been that high…. 
The interest rate may have been higher, but the prices were much lower. Technically: When rates are such that noone makes money from simply idly “owning assets,” prices for “assets” (and everything else) will inevitably be compatible with, affordable to, what source of funds people then need to pay for them with. Which is income. And income is how “the general public” pays for stuff. 
Most of those whom most people refer to as “the general public” make their mortgage payment from income derived outside of the FIRE sector. Hence don’t much benefit from “asset prices” being pumped up. And, to make matters worse, they are then also hurt by lower interest rates on their savings. 
The only people who are hurt by higher rates (more correctly, closer to market-correct rates, it’s just that those are almost inevitably closer to 15% than 0% right now, so in practical terms “more correct” and “higher” are effectively synonymous), are those whose income derives mainly from the asset pumping driven redistribution itself: Banksters; Realtors; Lawyers getting a cut of “deal size”; Anyone in high end retail, entertainment, dining, prostitution and near anything else in New York (and most other cities with a class of people who “made money on their house”); lobbyists paid for by the above to keep the redistribution/welfare gravytrain to their clients going; politicians, since a lower and lower share of income is organically “made” instead of simply resulting from the redistribution which politicians play a significant part in; anyone involved with the silly “superyacht/billionaire lifestyle” nonsense; “activists” who in reality are almost exclusively makework for the dilettante children of FIRE leeches etc.
Bring rates all the way to 15%; and the most noticeable impact for “the general public” is the sheer number of McMansions, New York condos, farmable ranches and overpriced boats firesold at prices they themselves can suddenly afford, since noone from the FIRE rackets will anymore be in nearly the same position bid their prices out of reach of “the general publlic”. Plus an abrupt end to the already idiotic idea that the US national debt will ever be repaid instead of just defaulted on then and there. Ergo, one less stupid thing for the general public to worry about their kids having to pay for.
And, they’ll notice the improvement in their own, and their employer’s, improved ability to compete with “The Chinese”, once the two of them no longer has to indirectly pay to keep the credit nexus leeches living in quite the splendor they currently do. Lower rents both for residential and commercial space; lower prices for most stuff; a shift in lobbying power from idle leeches living off of rent who are currently blocking any productive endeavor, since they themselves don’t need anything productive to live large etc….
Scooot
Scooot
4 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
Well I agree with most of that. Rates are too low.
However many families, here anyway, have stretched themselves to afford the high housing costs so as rates begin to rise they’ll feel the pinch, which was all I was getting at. As housing costs are a very large percentage of expenditure, lower other costs won’t compensate. Once you get to the utopia of lower prices, rents and high rates (15%?) etc then the general public in theory might feel better off, but I doubt it, the leeches, to whom you refer, will find other ways to profit. 
High rates will cause lower asset prices, but will also require higher profit margins to cover the additional business finance costs, which will be passed onto customers. 
Some sort of middle ground is probably better. 
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
4 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
“The general public” is not hurt by paying less for stuff.
Correct.  The asset holders (top 10%) are the ones griping about rate hikes.
Christoball
Christoball
4 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
I could not have said it better myself. Low rates only help those in the leveraged investment business model. The first with access to borrowed money wins. Everyone else ends up paying for their leveraged investment. There is nothing humble about wealth accumulation at other peoples expense. The Almighty promises to humble the proud. It will be interesting.
Roadrunner12
Roadrunner12
4 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
“The UKs small 0.15% hike is said to add £15 per month to the average mortgage. This on top of the increased energy costs, increased food prices etc.”
Energy costs in Europe, I would hazard to guess will be extremely elevated for this year and next. Im not an expert on the way European countries manage their household energy costs but it appears to me that many have price caps.

“Gas and electricity bills for millions of Britons could soar to a record £2,000-a-year from next year as the energy price cap is set to be doubled in the coming months, households have been warned. 

Households could face a 56 per cent rise in their energy bills from April after unprecedented wholesale costs force Ofgem to lift the price cap. 

Investment bank Investec has said that Britain’s energy price cap will have to be lifted to £1,995-a-year per household from April when the regulator next alters the limit, reported the https://www.ft.com/content/17b2f2a5-3f84-4bd5-90da-3a29af25bdd7. “

Scooot
Scooot
4 years ago
Reply to  Roadrunner12
Yes it’s going to cause a lot hardship.
whirlaway
whirlaway
4 years ago
It will converge once again. 

The Fed might do one or two baby step hikes.   
Even the BOE might do one more. 
Then the entire leveraged Ponzi scheme falls apart everywhere.

Result:  The Fed, BOE and ECB together decide to not hike for years.

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