Biden’s Dilemma
Biden is torn between a healing effort to appease Trump supporters and passing his agenda.
A focus on his agenda would not please Democrats and even some Republicans who want Trump not just out of office but with a guarantee he can never run again.
Here are the Articles of Impeachment.
Live Updates
The NYT has Impeachment Live Updates and comments on the events.
House Democrats on Monday introduced an article of impeachment against President Trump for inciting a mob that attacked the Capitol last week, vowing to press the charge as Republicans blocked a separate move to formally call on Vice President Mike Pence to strip him of power under the 25th Amendment.
“The president’s threat to America is urgent, and so too will be our action,” Ms. Pelosi said on Monday.
As expected, Republicans objected to a resolution calling on Mr. Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment, meaning that the House would have to call a full vote on the measure, most likely on Tuesday. Democratic leaders were confident it would pass, and pressured Republican lawmakers to vote with them to beseech the vice president, who is said to be opposed to using the powers outlined in the Constitution, to do so.
It was a remarkable threat. If Mr. Pence does not intervene “within 24 hours” after passage and the president does not resign, House leaders said they would move on Wednesday to consider the impeachment resolution on the floor, just a week after the attack. Already more than 210 Democrats have signed onto the leading charge, just shy of a majority of the House. Several Republicans were said to be considering voting to impeach for the first time, though party leaders were opposed.
Last minute changes were made late Sunday to include a reference to the 14th Amendment, the post-Civil War era addition to the Constitution that prohibits anyone who “engaged in insurrection or rebellion” against the United States from holding future office. Lawmakers also decided to cite specific language from Mr. Trump’s speech last Wednesday, inciting the crowd, quoting him saying: “If you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”
Biden Asks Congress to Split Time
Asked about the second impeachment proceeding beginning against Mr. Trump in Congress, Mr. Biden noted that his top priority is the passage of a new economic stimulus plan and repairing the U.S. economy.
But Mr. Biden added that he had spoken to House and Senate Democrats about whether it would be possible to “bifurcate” Congressional business, splitting days between impeachment and confirming his nominees and passing his agenda.
“I haven’t gotten an answer from the Parliamentarian yet,” the president-elect said at Christiana Hospital in Newark, Del., where he received a second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine.
New National Journey
Former presidents George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Bill Clinton will be at Biden’s inauguration.
Donald Trump will be notably absent. Current vice President Mike Pence and the second lady plan to attend.
“America United”
The Inaugural Committee said the theme of the inauguration will be “America United“.
“This inauguration marks a new chapter for the American people — one of healing, of unifying, of coming together, of an America united,” said PIC CEO Dr. Tony Allen. “It is time to turn the page on this era of division. The inaugural activities will reflect our shared values and serve as a reminder that we are stronger together than we are apart, just as our motto ‘e pluribus unum’ reminds us — out of many, one.”
“Field of Flags”
” At a time when Americans cannot gather together in person for the inauguration, the PIC will install an extensive public art display on the National Mall that will include approximately 191,500 U.S. flags of varying sizes, including flags representing every state and territory, and 56 pillars of light. This Field of Flags, which will cover the National Mall up to 13th Street, will represent the American people who are unable to travel to Washington, DC, and reflect PIC’s commitment to an inclusive and safe event that everyone can enjoy from their home.
Enormous Undertaking
Uniting America after this debacle will be an enormous undertaking.
Trump purposely sowed seeds of disunity that may easily last many years.
About a third of the nation wrongly believes Biden stole the election despite the fact there is virtually no evidence of the charge, to a degree that would change anything.
A search for dead voters turned up 2. Two recounts in Georgia turned up a handful of votes.
Dominion filed a lawsuit over Sidney Powell’s absurd allegations and I expect Dominion will win.
In court after court, Trump’s attorneys would not tell the court it had evidence of fraud.
Why?
Because team Trump had no real evidence of fraud, just fraudulent allegations.
There are penalties for lying to a judge. There are no penalties for lying to the public. That is why Trump perused his charges of fraud in the court of public opinion instead of a court of law.
Please read that last paragraph over and over again until it sinks in.
Message of Unity
The impeachment process itself will not deliver a message of unity. Nor would failure to impeach appease the 50% of the nation who rightfully believes Trump is wholly or partially to blame for the Capitol riots.
That balancing is a core ingredient of Biden’s dilemma.
Nonetheless, the presence of Bush and Pence at the inauguration will be a good start to what will be a lengthy healing process.
We should all wish Biden well, no matter what one thinks of him or Democrats in general.
Addendum: Time to Stand Down
Mish
As far as Biden is concerned, I think he only has to manage to not be Trump and he’ll be wildly popular. Trump is a nasty ripe fart that America passed in 2016 and he’s been slowly dissipating ever since. He’ll go meekly now that his creditors and various and assorted federal agencies come after him.
Biden also needs to stay away from cameras and never — ever — be caught without a teleprompter.
I will say it here to anyone who thinks Trump is right about election fraud – LEAVE THE COUNTRY if you think there was widespread election fraud that would have affected the outcome. We have laws in this country and if you don’t want to live by them don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
As far as healing…this is the kind of thing I hope we see more of….the younger crowd might not even know, but Neil Young was major “influencer” during the Vietnam War….no kind of right-winger, I can tell you that. I read his book written in recent years, titled Waging Heavy Peace…..he’s a Canuck, but a lot of old dudes inAmerica still love this guy.
He says some empathy is called for…..for people who have been manipulated and lied to by Trump…….I agree.
I’m all for healing, but first there must be accountability. And prison terms.
Before a problem can be fixed you first have to recognize you have a problem. The Republicans have yet to recognize Trump is the problem, at least publicly. One thought that served me well in my long high pressured career is that problems generally don’t age well. Far better off to recognize the problem and deal with it rather than closing your eyes and hoping it will go away.
Mish-It seems like you may need to hand in your libertarian card if you believe we need to stand behind Biden.
I really think the best direction forward for Biden is not to look back and even bring up Trump’s name giving him any blame or credibility. The quicker we forget Donald Trump the faster we can move on.
Was there a coup? Who was in on it? Who was organizing? What interests do they represent? How close did they get to pulling it off?
time for a new name
“Biden is torn between a healing effort to appease Trump supporters…”
Can stop reading right there. Republicans can not be “appeased” so therefore it is impossible for Biden be “torn” by that which is not possible.
If only Dems we also unappeasable, things might balance out a bit more. Not perfect but more balanced.
The hypocrite, warmonging black messiah, Bill-ary Clinton known for lying and corruption and Bush the Supreme Liar standing by the new dyed-in-the-wool Deep State puppet ! NICE ! America is united again…..IN EVIL !
I don t think there are any lies in my comment….But don t worry…there will come a time when the very Google automatically deletes the TRUTH, even on private blogs….
The unrequited love of a dolt for a dunce…
How does this not apply?
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
organizers must be charged with sedition
Well you’d need evidence that satisfies a higher standard of proof than the media deals in, for starters.
Quote from John Cleese:
With the benefit of hindsight, would you say that the Nuremberg Trials were divisive
Painted horned shaman cosplayer….Jacob Chansley, AKA Jake Angeli, Arizona man makes first court appearance in for charges related to storming the U.S. Capitol. His mom says he hasn’t eaten since Friday because the detention facility won’t feed him all organic food.@abc15
Going to piss myself laughing.
Sounds like the kind of pussy Trump would love to grab.
making the rounds on the networks…
These armed gatherings and proposed occupations piss me off (compared to the protests that neither have guns nor threaten people or buildings full of workers with them).
I’m thinking that a couple of things that have emboldened them to extend this may blow up in their faces if they try to push it further, especially after Jan. 20 when Biden controls federal law enforcement.
The Ammon Bundy occupation gave them an adrenaline jolt to consider doing more of it, because they held the place for a long time, and a stupid jury let them off scot free.
Now, the Capitol Occupation was much more serious, but again, they were basically escorted in, handled comparatively with kid gloves, then allowed to stroll out. Although the price is about to be paid by many of them with the coming arrests. Still, not much violent resistance by the authorities.
However, I think the Bundy situation was intentionally played down by LEOs because it was novel at the time and they didn’t want martyrs to cause it to spread. Figured it was a one-off, I suppose. With the Capitol invasion insurrection though, they have now breached the beachhead, and the authorities realize it cannot be allowed to grow and spread quickly.
That’s why I think in some cases at least this time they are going to be faced down more seriously, and if they draw guns or threaten to, they may get met with overwhelming force including guns – provided it’s not just a bunch of unprepared cops this time.
I expect some ugliness no matter what happens, because too many have gone full in on their revolution delusion. Just what the hell are they planning to do there with their assault rifles anyway? Cosplay, or shoot them? If they shoot, they’re gonna be very sorry.
The seeds where planted way before Trump was elected. Trump was elected from some of those seeds and other sprouts that were looking for something different from their elected officials. It is pretty obvious now that the powers to be (whomever they are) were not happy with an outsider exposing the nonsense that goes on in their town within the walls of their precious “Capitol Building” their own playground called Washington DC (ie the last COVID relief bill was anything but COVID relief). The massive investigation (of election fraud by Trump…lol) the previous impeachment and now a second impeachment (it too will fail) and the total harassment of judges proposed by the elected Prez. Unbelievable!
Now we are putting into power the people that actually started the planting of those seeds. For over 40 years JB and his crew planted embryos and has been fertilizing them into sprouts spreading throughout the country nurturing them with policies, and taxes that have brought great wealthy to the political profession and the demise of the middle class and America with it.
I wish him best of luck and can’t wait to see his policies unite our country.
Ron Paul Facebook page has been locked for violating community standards. I have not been following him as of late but I thought he was a libertarian now.
In January 2013, Paul retired from Congress but still remains active on college campuses, giving speeches promoting his libertarian vision.[11][12] He also continues to provide political commentary through The Ron Paul Liberty Report, a web show he co-hosts on YouTube. Paul received one electoral vote from a Texas faithless elector in the 2016 presidential election, making him the oldest person to receive an electoral vote, as well as the second registered Libertarian presidential candidate in history to receive an Electoral College vote, after John Hospers in 1972.
The Paul’s embrace of Donald Trump, often pushing lies (especially Rand) in support of Trump, has really concerned me over the past four years. How Trump falls into line with the philosophy of the Paul’s is baffling.
“Dear Congress – Stop Wasting Time With Impeaching Trump – End His Famine In Yemen”
Think a post did not go thur. Need to not let this fester. Unity would start by the republicans standing up and defending the constitution. They did not say anything about election fraud. Just stood by like now they are gonna want the dems to do their dirty work for them.
Right now the president incited a coup and his only punishment has been losing his social media acct.
Was there a coup? Who was in on it? Who was organizing? What interests do they represent? How close did they get to pulling it off?
United the country doesn’t mean turning a blind eye toward sedition and being one o the putchists. The MAGA’S must think Biden a fool. There can’t be forgiveness without accountability. The time to forgive is after people have been prosecuted and their actions allocuted.
What’s wrong with sedition? Are you authoritarian?
There isn’t much healing on the horizon. I recommend Matt Taibbi’s “Hate, Inc” to anyone who wants to know about why the media likes Americans being in different silos and how we got here. Echo chambers have played a huge role in this division.
Besides the media, our two party duopoly is awful and many Americans can’t face the fact that our boneheaded economic decisions, like ZIRP , QE, and constant Fed meddling are killing us. Financial blame is clearly bipartisan and therefore nobody wants to touch it. Instead we focus on issues where only certain sections of the population can be blamed.
So we have a country of very questionable character to begin with, complemented by a media and political system that loves division. It’s not exactly a recipe for success, is it?
Trump is a rock in the right shoe of democracy. Better to stop and remove it before it blisters and gets infected. The republicans need to step up and take care of their on instead of waiting for the dems to do their dirty work for them. That would show some unity. But just like election fraud they are gonna stand back because they are afraid of trump and his mob.
Hitting him where his heart is…
Tweet
@maggieNYT
Maggie Haberman
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3h
A lot has happened in the last week, including the president losing his Twitter feed, impeachment coming to the fore and the PGA withdrawing from Trump National. He’s “gutted” by the PGA move, a person close to the White House says. He’s angry about impeachment, people who have spoken to him say. But the reaction to the PGA decision was different order of magnitude.
Trump’s gonna win a Showcase Showdown’s worth of stupid prizes. A Sears Catalog’s worth.
Wouldn’t surprise me a bit, and this is the guy people loudly proclaim they’re willing to die for!
Hogan Gidley (Trump spokesman) said he’s the most manly of all Presidents.
Who could forget this man-speak to the coal miners…
….It was May 2016, and Donald Trump was in West Virginia, holding a rally for coal miners. To celebrate the endorsement he had just received from the West Virginia Coal Association, the future president was handed a white hard hat bearing its logo. “Nice!” he shouted. “I’ll put it on, right?” He placed it on his head and pantomimed digging up coal. The crowd roared.
After removing the hat, he launched into a rant about a topic of great concern to blue-collar West Virginians — the declining quality of hair spray:
“My hair look OK? I got a little spray. Give me a little spray. You know you’re not allowed to use hair spray anymore because it affects the ozone. You know that, right? I said, ‘You mean to tell me’ — because you know, hair spray’s not like it used to be. It used to be real good. When I put on that helmet — and by the way, look [pushing his hair back] it really is mine. Look at it. My hair. Give me a mirror.
In the old days, ya put the hair spray on and it was good. Today ya put the hair spray on and it’s good for twelve minutes, right? But you know, they say you can’t — I said, ‘Wait a minute, so if I take hair spray and I spray it in my apartment, which is all sealed, you’re telling me that affects the ozone layer?’ Yes. I say no way folks. No way.”
He sure seems to care a lot about his impeachment and PGA tourney.
Too bad he and his cult don’t seem to give a crap about stuffing kids in cages, watching unarmed black men get shot with no consequences, throwing the Kurds to the wolves, letting the Saudis saw off one of our journalist’s head, firing good people for not showing absolute loyalty to him, appointing chronic liars and grifters to cabinet positions, destroying the post office, molesting dozens of women….enough, I’m sick of thinking about this venal fool.
A balanced assessment. These are all totally unique and fully attributed to Trump.
So Americans will unite around shared values, epitomized by 4 indemnified war criminals, and harking back to some good old McCarthyism/Salem witch hunts, with a new ‘war’ against vaguely defined domestic terrorism granting new arbitrary powers to a new collaboration between the intelligence ‘community’ and the corporatocracy.
Bitter envy….so sad your butt hurts. What a fine pricipled stand in support of guy who put kids in cages, separated parents from their children, killed more civilians via drones than ever before, self-dealt all the while in the office, subverted evey agency he could, scammed millions over the years (before his presidency), and on and on.
It is sad you don’t realize how silly you sound. What fascist will you support next?
I’m confused. It sounds like you’re describing Obama era policy, but you think you’re describing Trump?
“Our country suffers all. How long will this go on? What is happening to us? Through our sins evil has assumed human form. God will forgive you, don’t forgive yourself.”
Andrei Rublev was a Russian icon painter born in the 1360s, and died between 1427 and 1430[2] in Moscow. He is considered to be one of the greatest medieval Russian painters of Orthodox Christian icons and frescos.
That sounds like something that the White House Clown would say…anything but avoid to take responsibility.
WHY ? WHY?? THIS BRINGS ME TO TEARS Are there any good people left ?? Fewer and fewer Floridians care. Its all about the weather and build build build to the point they have soiled not only the environment but their psyche
False flag. It was Antifa.
(Just kidding. I’m disgusted by that. It’s not as if boat props weren’t killing them off fast enough as it is.)
I saw this. This is sick.
anyone who can hurt an animal like that is displaying tendencies which are described as antisocial/psychopathic personality disorders. A number of criminological studies have shown that around a third to a half of all sexual murderers have abused animals during childhood and/or adolescence.
sigh.. this wasn’t “CARVED” into the animal’s back. It’s algae. Someone did this with their fingers.
If we truly want to change this country for the better then we need to consider drastic changes to the political system such as introducing term limits for senators and congressmen, the elimination of Super Pacs and dare I say the whole Party system.
How about ballot harvesting, as a modest start?
You jest.
All countries in the EU is condemning this censorship. The Digital Services Act will pass in a strengthened form. They will kick these companies out of Europe because they have shown what they truly are, monopolies who will do anything to keep out competition. They will be taxed much more, they will have to publish their algorisms, they will have to open their closed ecosystems and much more. They are going to find out that they are not essential and can easily be replaced. They backed the wrong horse. The uproar here is quite unanimous.
Really?
Do the EU countries have home-grown armed militia wandering the capitols of their countries and the capitol of the EU working themselves up to armed insurrection through social media channels.
You’re the one that fails to understand.
Exactly. EU leadership would be kicking and screaming if armed militia stormed the Brussels HQ.
You show your ignorance of what’s going on in Europe. For more than two years now we have had violent riots every weekend from the Gillets Jeunes and Black Bloc. The Capital riot is something we saw every weekend in Paris for over a year till the virus hit.
Armed with semi-automatic weapons?
No.
I read the news.
Come-on, don’t be such a fool.
Apples and oranges.
Do you even know what a semi-automatic weapon is? It’s called a gun. Also, the only person shot was the unarmed protester.
This is one area where I agree with Trump although not for all the same reasons, Section 230 protection needs to go and a uniform regulatory framework put in place.
The United States is already united including extreme left, extreme right and center. They are united as the nation of have nots against the oligarchy of 1%. United States economy in the last many decades has grown enormously, but all of the spoils went to the top. The legislative branch is completely corrupted by money on both the left and the right.
I hope there is a leader with genuine values that delivers that message , and does something about it. Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders both tap into that message, although completely different species integrity wise.
The last man who truly delivered that message and believed in it was Ross Perot.
We’re already united on that front I think on both left and right.
Before you propose a solution, you need to get both sides of the electorate to agree that they are looking to solve the same problem. And I strongly believe that there is a common problem to be solved – economic inequality.
There is not a huge difference between Democrats and Republicans common men and women who were left behind or abandoned by our political and economic system, and that includes the so called middle class.
We need political leadership that will stand up to the elite and special interests, and just hammer that point home for decades until the situation improves. I’m willing to bet that post 2008 recession (and the recession that will follow the bubble of 2020) there will be a lot of common people who support so called socialism.
It’s not about the $1000, it’s about having a fair system where you don’t get a giant stack of bills to pay every month because the corporations are free to squeeze you however much they want, and where the elected officials are bought and sold.
That’s a uniting message.
The question is whether Democratic leadership can deliver that message. It’s too late for the GOP for the next 10-20 years, until it rebuilds itself.
Don’t be so sure. If Trump is able to run again in 4 years then why does the Republican Party need to rebuild itself? Trump won more votes than any other presidential candidate in history other than Joe Biden. And he is still wildly popular with his base despite recent events. My guess is that 4 years under the Democrats will be more than enough time for the country to want change.
I fully agree with you that Democrats will not be able to talk to the American People directly in the eye, until they themselves confront the elitism, inequality and big donors that the Dems support. As Bernie Sanders, Ross Perot and Donald Trump have amply illustrated – the anger at the inequality is there from both sides. All you need (easier said than done for sure) is to make people who support Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump is to make them realize who the real enemy of the people is, and that they want the same thing. It’s not the other side that’s to blame, it’s the rich and the powerful.
I’m not saying rich and powerful need to be demonized, there simply has to be a more even redistribution of the profits.
I agree. Most are not evil but they get rich because they are driven and like to change the rules so they become the house and make the rules.
Some of these ultra rich are so competitive they never donate time nor money to the community….even though the communities made them rich. Most people who donate the highest percentage of their time and money are the poor.
It goes beyond that though. The extreme media propaganda basically making enemies out of opponents is a toxic stew that has poisoned minds and our political environment. The bullshit I’ve encountered on Fox or Rush Limbaugh that is a non-stop hate fest against Dems without even trying to understand us is ridiculous, but effective on its intended audience.
I remember growing up before cable news and the internet, when most people could read papers, watch network news, and generally get and evaluate facts and news without a prescribed bias that would be all they would see, as happens today.
As a Dem, I want to see as many average people as possible succeed, and this generally includes republicans, except for the worst of the sort such as white supremacists and other hateful types. We have been astounded at times that some struggling republicans in less developed states reject the ACA or medicaid or other benefits that Dems fought for to extend to all, because they call it “Obamacare” or socialism, so it must be bad. Or, they want those benefits for themselves, but think the blacks and browns shouldn’t get them.
The whole idea of “owning the libs” was pretty foreign to us when we started hearing it. We couldn’t give a f* about “owning the repubs”, we don’t want that. We will fight them like hell when they get racist or try to impose their evangelical religious ideas on us, but we’re not indoctrinated to hate average or struggling republicans, we want them to have it better too.
There is a big cultural and racial problem that has never gone away in this country, and just raising everybody’s economic status somewhat doesn’t solve it. A big problem is that we don’t buy into there just being one proper or best way to live – the white christian patriarchy. They should not try to force that on us, but accept the whole range of us and share political power more evenly instead of trying to horde it for the white wealthy patriarchy, and we’ll get along better.
Alright…I trust the Evangelical wing nuts as long as they finally recognized that their true church is the church of Satan.
I commend the contributors commentary, excellent on point debate to an excellent thread started by Telenochek82
Just the loss itself is touted as sufficient proof that Trump was cheated from a victory due to atypically massive electoral-ballot fraud—a claim they cannot factually support. (But they’d vehemently deny that any form of electoral fraud may have unjustly put Trump into the White House four years ago.)
Were there not scrutineers from both political camps monitoring the election, including ballot counts, last November?
Long before election day, Trump was saying he may not respect a Biden win, as though preparing his voter base for his inevitable refusal to leave office, at least not with dignity.
I find it plausible they’re maintaining ‘Trump was cheated’ as an excuse for their attempt to overturn Joe Biden’s (apparently quite) legitimate electoral win—or at least make it as unpleasant as possible, as we saw on Jan. 6.
Could those Trump supporters consciously or subconsciously believe that he MUST remain in office for some perceived greater good—notably to save America, make it great again or to simply do ‘God’s will’—regardless of his democratically-decided election loss, and all of those in the (non-surprising) majority who voted against Trump MUST be overridden?
Might it be a case of that perhaps most dangerous of ideologies: the end justifies the means?
I’m not equating Trump or his base support to any of history’s genocidal maniacs, but the most frightful example of that philosophical justification is the pogrom, the implementers of which know they’re committing mass murder yet still genuinely perceive it all as part of an ultimately greater good.
Any chance the ‘election hoax’ will play like the ‘Russia’ hoax?
It’s a cult comprised of a significant number of their voters who are attracted to and mesmerized by charismatic authoritarian based personalities. Ask any number of psychologists, they pretty much agree. The cult leader cannot be wrong, because he never is, and if they ever realize that, it is shattering to them.
First, they find an “other” to demonize (muslims, mexicans). Then, they constantly tell you that any news except what comes from them directly (the Fake News gambit) is not to be believed. They fence you off so that you only listen to them or their sources (Fox, Rush, Oann, etc). So those people lose the chance to be objective. They do not want critical thinking from their followers, and their adherents often prefer it that way. Then, they communicate through a channel where they do not have to answer questions or face challenges from the press (Twitter). They lie, and they lie regularly, and they repeat the lies over and over in simple terms until they have you believing and repeating it (No, you’re the puppet. No Collusion. Voter fraud). This is the authoritarian fascist handbook, and trump is far from the first who’s used it.
There are some who honestly believe the election was fraudulent (though there is complete and reality based evidence that it was not), though a lot of them know it wasn’t, but having their identity ripped from them makes them assert it anyway.
Those of us who do not have personalities susceptible to cults or authoritarian leaders have found this group of people and last 4 years to be very puzzling, and it has taken some of us quite awhile to understand it. Especially those of us who were revolted by pretty much every action he has taken before and during the presidency, yet found that no matter what he did, his baseline support rarely waivered.
We don’t need a new stimulus package until we manage to defeat this COVID-19 virus thru vaccination and / or herd immunity. What we do need right now is a safety net for the unemployed and the homeless. The last stimulus package mainly benefited the wealthy exacerbating the difference between the haves and the have nots. No amount of stimulus right now will jump start the economy until it is safe to start eating out again, attend concerts and sporting events, take vacations etc. This is a great country and we will find our way back although it may take longer than anyone expects.
If nothing is done at this point then Trump is free to run again in 4 years. Given the depth of his support I see no reason why he would not win the Republican nomination 3 years from now. The Republican brain trust was unable to stop him winning 4 years ago, despite their misgivings, and I don’t see them being able to stop him next go round either. For that reason alone he either needs to be impeached or convicted. If the Republicans have any sense they will fall on their sword for the good of their party and country and start the healing process.
Someone else will step into Trump’s void to split the Republicans, unless Republicans rebuild the middle class. The same can be said about Bernie and the Democrats. If both parties fail to agree to rebuild the middle class, then 2024 will have 4 presidential candidates.
What void? Are you anticipating that Trump will just fade into obscurity. I don’t see that happening.
The idea of a Trump bid in 2024 appeared ludicrous even in May. Now it is beyond that. Trump was unlikely in 2016. Trump was a finger raised against the establishment. Many of those who voted for him do not support anything about him personally or in terms of policy.
The momentum is gone. Real believers are a rather small group.
Color me skeptical. This country has gone crazy. Sure as hell hope you are right though.
No way Trump would win a nomination again.
Polls haven’t been too accurate lately, but there was one from Quinnipiac today that showed his approval rating dropping from 44% last month to 33% in the past week.
No one thought he would even win the Republican nomination in 2016 far less the presidency. Four years is a long time to resurrect his image.
For over a year I’ve thought whoever won this election would wish they hadn’t, well before this latest debacle. Trump made it easier for Biden, there is someone (& group) to blame. He has more cover for any decisions.
The only way out is through. Through a depression. The economy is shot to pieces. Debt will never be paid back, the $ will become toilet paper. Unemployment is endemic and will take years to recover from.
Multiple terms of bad decisions coming home to roost, not just under Trump. Senseless wars whilst enemies are growing stronger and better organised.
Ignoring the needs or ordinary citizens for short term financial gain of the few instead of infrastructure investment to help the economy for the many.
Poor education system, erosion of moral values that have repeatedly lifted populations out of the dirt – labour, spend less than you earn.
Corruption of the financial system, debasement of tge currency, allowing monopolistic behaviours, cronyism, extreme levels of lobbying.
The only way out is through and it will hurt.
A hard rain is gonna fall.
The heart of the problem is one of values.
Its not just the US but you look like having the problems on steroids.
I’m not hopeful there is any recovery possible without first a collapse.
Like an addict hitting rock bottom before climbing out of the abyss.
What does it say about a society that locks up the % the US does?
No amount of supposedly free money will fix this, it runs deeper than that.
The heart of the problem is one of values.
Its not just the US but you look like having the problems on steroids.
I’m not hopeful there is any recovery possible without first a collapse.
Like an addict hitting rock bottom before climbing out of the abyss.
What does it say about a society that locks up the % the US does?
No amount of supposedly free money will fix this, it runs deeper than that.
What needs to be done with Lauren boebert.
Had to do a double take because at first I read what you wrote as Lorena Bobbitt. Yow.
Aiding & abetting an insurrection, tweeting real time information to them about Pelosi’s movements as they searched for her, Schumer and Pence.
Sounds like a high crime to me.
This is the end of the beginning. Not the beginning of the end. Many people have suddenly realized that if they don’t toe the party line bad things will happen to them. I wonder how that makes them feel?
Lincoln wanted the military occupation of the South ended as soon as possible for good reason, to heal the nation faster. FDR chose not to pursue those that were planning a coup against him when the general who was selected to be the dictator ratted on them. Lets learn from our very wise forefathers. Our Federal government needs to focus on the pandemic and the economic fallout asap. The human suffering is immense. Lengthy legal processes just keeps Trump in the news cycle and keeps Washington’s limited focus on the less important stuff.
Dead wrong…..not because we don’t need to heal…but because we need these legal issues around what a President can and can’t be indicted for….and the self-pardon issue, resolved immediately.
I don’t disagree that the power of the executive branch needs to reined in, but the Dems have two years to do it. Last year’s impeachment and the vitriol unleashed is one of the big reasons why our initial efforts to control the pandemic were a failure.
I was not in support of that impeachment either. It was a bad idea then and it’s a bad idea now.
The federal occupation of the former CSA lasted 10 years after Lincoln’s death and the deaths of 300,000 Union soldiers, during which time major progress was made for civil rights and racial equality.
Reconstruction ended abruptly and forcibly with the election of 1876 and the compromise that removed federal troops from the former CSA. Immediately, the KKK and Jim Crow regime were instituted and civil rights and racial equality reverted to a situation as bad, if not worse, than chattel slavery.
Your position is morally disgusting to anyone who is not a white supremacist. Let that sink in.
Lincoln and FDR were human. Their ideas and examples may be considered and dismissed as foolish. We’ve tried it their way, now it’s time to try confronting it head-on and relentlessly.
“Your position is morally disgusting to anyone who is not a white supremacist.”
I have to call that hyperbole. Sorry. I don’t agree.
People who in 1865 acted just like you’re acting now….that’s WHY the federal troops occupied the South for ten years.
I’m completely altogether sorry you’re making this Civil War analogy. It’s a version of Godwin’s Law, imho. I won’t be drawn in to some anti-racist diatribe…but just know I don’t give you nearly as much moral high ground as you’re claiming.
I’m not the one who brought up Lincoln and I apologize for presenting an accurate view of American history.
Do you even know the history of the Compromise of 1877?
It’s very ironic, actually. Hayes was elected and the Democrats claimed election fraud. Really. I’m not making this up.
After he was inaugurated he took federal troops out of the South to soothe the nerves of people who voted for Tilden, who campaigned on home rule for the South. There was little stomach remaining among Republicans in the North for the occupation.
There was a depression on (the Depression of 1873) and people just wanted to get back to work.
It never really worked anyway, the occupation. There were ten major (named) race riots in the South during Reconstruction. Yes, white people behaved badly…and it does carry down to the present day. But that is hardly the whole story.
The South was agricultural and some kind of solution had to emerge that somehow kept the black workers working and the economy viable….and that did happen. You can argue about whether Jim Crow was worse than slavery. It was for some black people. Not for others.
Slavery was replaced in many instances by a more benign form of racism…a benevolent patriarchy that was certainly racist….but not in itself deliberately cruel.
It was an arrangement that kept the farms going and the cotton ginning. It still exists in some places. I’m not trying to defend it, just explain it.
Also…..did you know that before the Civil War more than half of the free black people in America lived in the South? They considered it their home. Before and after the war.
Even freed slaves had their ties to family, church and ommunity….and communities were 100% local in that day and time
Black people really didn’t start to migrate north in large numbers until 1916. Better jobs and more money brought them up, ultimately. People bootstrapping themselves.
That and the efforts of many Southern people, some of whom were white btw, working to try to overcome the worst of the racism and bad treatment of black people. The South was never monolithic….albeit quite racist on the whole.
In any case it was an ongoing shitshow from 1865 until the federal troops left.
Jim Crow was already well underway before the Hayes Compromise….and the idea that things might have worked out in some ideal fashion…after freeing so many slaves and making absolutely no coherent plan on how to manage the aftermath…left everything to random events.
You have a good grasp of history.
And fwiw, my reply was directed to Jackula. Not sure why that didn’t come through.
It came through. You just happened to push one of my buttons. We agree on most things, and I consider you a person of good will. I will now mind my own business.
And more fwiw, I upvoted your first reply. We are definitely more in agreement than you seem to know.
Morally perhaps you have a point but from a practical standpoint I completely disagree with you. You can’t force people to think a different way at the point of a gun or by exterminating people that don’t agree with you. We would have had another civil war if military occupation of the South continued. Society’s need space to evolve at their own pace. People learn far better from a good example than by force and harsh punishment. The African Americans freed during the Civil War could migrate to more hospitable areas and many did to various cities in the North and West. Its this type of thinking that has led the US on one too many “nation building” military miss-adventures.
I can agree with you on the principle that half-measures are worse than no measures. If the Union lacked the spleen to go all the way, then it would have been better to dissolve the Union and let the CSA fail over time.
Impeachment will not remove Trump from office before his term ends but there must be repercussions. Trump committed sedition. If this isn’t impeachable or punishable then nothing is
How about war crimes?
Probably cuts his retirement out
I pushed Gramma down the stairs. but don’t call the cops as I’m moving out in 10 days and if you do we’ll never unify the family seems to be the argument for not holding Trump and his golpistas accountable. Its crap! Trump. Rudy, Cruz , Hawley, Don jr are just as guilty as the MAGAs that stormed the capital. I’m angry. We had a coup d’etat. Yes it failed. Yes it was incompetently organized but the goal was to stop the transfer of power and people showed up with the intent of harming Pence, Pelosi and other elected leaders. We can’t whitewash this
You are delusional. It was a coup in the same way as burning a copied DVD is grand larceny.
People were killed. I don’t think your analogy is appropriate.
Impeachment is a farce imho……no chance of a conviction. Maybe if Trump had beaten that cop to death with a fire extinguisher personally….but he didn’t, and the Republicans have already gotten over their initial outrage and started closing ranks.
A better way to handle it would be to just indict Trump in federal court as a private citizen, the moment he leaves office. If you read all those briefs from past OLC’s, you can see that the entirety of the idea that a sitting President can’t be indicted…..has everything to do with it interfering with him carrying out his duties.
More than one of them mentions that such an indictment might even be okay….as long as the case could then be delayed until the POTUS was no longer in office.
How conservative legal bullshit artists (like Dershowitz) got from there to this idea that the President is above the law and that maybe he can even self-pardon…..is an enormous stretch of the legal precedent.
The legal canon needs very badly to be set straight, and this is the time to do it. It just remains to be seen if the political will exist to do it. I expect to be disappointed, as usual.
But his idea….that by “just moving on” the “country can heal” is very short-sighted….and therefore likely to carry the day, since nobody, least of all Joe Biden, wants to do anything that might require moral courage or endanger the Democrats new (and probably temporary) advantage.
If we don’t deal with this now, we’ll be seeing it come up again, in my view, and the next time we have a demagogue trying to throw his weight around and ignore the US Constitution, it might be even easier for him or here to get ways with it.
Trump should go to jail…but I’d settle for him losing his right to run for office….any felony conviction will do.
“easier for him or her to get away with it.”
Damn auto correct.
Hamilton Burr duel was not impeachable because it was not a crime against the state. A murder is not high crimes against the state
It is if you’re storming the Capitol building…..duh.
But my point is just that wasting effort on another losing impeachment its stupid and likely be extremely counterproductive, since losing another impeachment would be called an acquittal by anyone who is pro-Trump.
Think.
I just want a conviction. As I said, any felony conviction (after leaving office) gets the important part done.
“no chance of a conviction”
Not sure that’s true. Any Republican not denouncing Trump right now is basically ending their political career. They may think they can avoid the question, but they’re best off answering it, publicly, and throwing Trump under the bus for the sake of the country and their careers. Some of the GOP will certainly figure that out. Just need 17 of 50 GOP Senators. 3 or 4 have already indicated they’re there.
Only 17 needed…..do really how extremely low probability that is….and the stakes of failure?
Jsust eems like a bad bet to me.
God, my typing is getting worse, and I’m not even drinking.
Yeah, also I’m not the one calling it persecution 🙂
Sorry. I completely meant that for Webej.
“and I’m not even drinking.”
Yet. I’m not even drinking yet.
Always keep hope for the future.
Out here in California I’ve replaced the alcohol with cannabis. Excellent anti-inflammatory and all around much better for me. Only in the evenings so if my late night posts are a little weird you know why.
Excellent points on how to handle this. I’ve always considered impeachment more of a political tool than a rule of law tool. I would like to see the rule of law applied to Trump and anty other elite in this country that breaks the law but its especially important in this case.
“and the stakes of failure?”
If they try him in the Senate and don’t convict?
The stakes are… the GOP Senators who don’t vote to convict likely losing their next election. That would be deserved. What are the other stakes of failure? What am I missing.
My powerless thoughts… give him a chance to resign, and if he doesn’t, impeach and convict him. If he resigns, move on and forget about the guy.
The stakes of failure….if he is impeached and it does not carry he day?
Trump walks, maybe gets his second wind and becomes some kind of permanent counterculture hero to millions of armed idiots and causes much more trouble.
We continue to depend on impeachment instead of prosecution in federal court, which means the only way to try a President, any President, is through a Senate popularity contest and laws don’t matter at all, once you’re President. Emoluments clause, toothless and meaningless.
If you are the President, and you get caught breaking the law, you can pardon yourself, maybe, because we never zipped that loophole shut like we should be doing now.
Btw, if the Democrats impeach Trump again and it doesn’t pass the Senate, then it ultimately reinforces the idea that the charges were unfair.. Just like the Trumpites right now want to claim the Ukraine thing was a partisan witch hunt. Everybody who watched the testimony knows Trump was guilt as charged. But he got off.
Impeachment is like a jury trial where if you’re lucky enough you can pack the jury with your homeboys. And then claim you were acquitted.
It isn’t persecution. Trump repeatedly has thumbed his nose at the law.
He surely wants to claim he can self-pardon…..he’s been obsessed with it from the beginning, practically.
We have a couple of important legal issues that badly needs to be resolved. Presidents were never meant to be above the law. Arguments to that effect have some credence these days, unfortunately. It needs to be shown that actions have consequences, even for Presidents who can hold big rallies and impress stupid people and drive them to violence.
Seems to me that it’s not just the self pardon that’s a problem, but any pardon of anybody related to a crime that the President is involved in. You know that example of the President shooting his political opponents, or supreme court justices and their families and then pardoning himself that is so outrageous?
Well he could just hire a hit man to do it too and pardon the hit man (and himself if he got caught hiring him) with the same result.
I think the Supreme Court should invalidate any such pardons. If they don’t, this country is truly nuts.
The persecution of ex-leaders would be all of a piece with the third world politics and elections. In many countries autocrats hang on to power because passing the baton reliably means the end. That is why other countries offer refuge to odious leaders — the closest to a peaceful transition of power.
I am expecting the USA to double-down on the new banana republic norms by going after it leaders for the first time, although war criminals such as Bush and Clinton got a pass.
McConnell reportedly on-board (and happy about) Trump’s impeachment in the House.
If true, Dems will get the votes they need in the Senate to convict.
We could bring “draw and quarter” for a seditious act. That would be healing for me.
You are dreaming Mish.
Dreaming about what?
What predictions did I make other that it may take many years.
I remember when this blog used to be useful for investors. Now it’s another litany of Trump shitposts and prognostications about how he thinks the political system really works. Maybe the morons who like these posts are generating more traffic for Mish but I personally have not garnered anything useful from this site since he last discussion on the yield curve. Time to find another fin site
There’s still time for trump to issue a blanket pardon for all involved in the insurrection. They are patriots after all.
You mean the ones chanting “Hang Mike Pence” who erected a gallows outside the Capitol and threatened his family who were present?
Yeah, I’m thinking that’s exactly what Pence is saving the 25th Amendment for.
Another one’s text read that he was going to put a bullet in Pelosi’s head. You don’t mess around saying stuff like that. This was no mere frat party.
Merica is f..ked. Let BLM and the Trumpers fight till the end.
And you we’re sure doing your part Mish with all the TDS you displayed over the past few years…now it’s the hypocritical call for “Healing.” FO.
Mish’s mouth will be Biden’s c..kholder for the next 4 yrs.
That’s how they do it back in Ill.
This is quite healing to me.