Top Idea of the Month: What Needs to Happen Before Stocks Bottom?

Nasdaq 100 Index vs 10-Year Treasury Note Yield, Data St. Louis Fed, Chart by Mish

Inspiration for this post come from a Tweet by Danielle DiMartino Booth posting a thought from Dave Rosenberg.

Top Idea of the Month

Over the past five decades, only when the 10-year T-note yield plunged 135 basis points (on average) did the S&P 500 manage to make a bottom.

The St. Louis Fed does not have much S&P 500 data for some unknown reason, but it does have Nasdaq data from 1986 on.

I started the chart with 1998 because the scale prior to 1998 is hard to read.

Nasdaq Peak to Trough Analysis 1998-Preesent 

Nasdaq 100 Index vs 10-Year Treasury Note Yield, Data St. Louis Fed, Chart by Mish

Peaks, Troughs, Yields 

  • The Nasdaq peaked on March 27, 2003, declining 75.68% while the 10-year-yield fell 1.63 percentage points. 
  • The Nasdaq peaked on November 13, 2007, declining 49.48% while the 10-year-yield fell 1.37 percentage points. 
  • The Nasdaq peaked on February 20, 2020, declining 27.35% while the 10-year-yield fell 0.60 percentage points. 

Key Ideas

  • Currently, the Nasdaq is down 28.03% but yields are up 1.34 percentage points.
  • Before yields can fall, they first have to stop rising. 
  • If we use the May 6 yield yield peak of 3.12% instead of the yield when the stock market peaked, then yields are down a modest 0.24 percentage points. 

Using the Covid recession as guide is problematic because that recession was accompanied by the largest fiscal and monetary stimulus in history. 

Moreover, the Fed currently has huge inflation headwinds blowing in its face, the exact opposite of the short-lived Covid recession.

Realistically, a Nasdaq decline of 50% is the minimum one should expect. And if inflation does not abate, then we could easily see a decline of 70% or so from the peak. 

Nasdaq 100 Support Levels 

Nasdaq 100 chart courtesy of StockCharts.com, annotations by Mish

S&P 500 Support Levels 

S&P 500 chart courtesy of StockCharts.com, annotations by Mish

Pullback Idea 

  • A mild recession pullback on the S&P 500 would be to the 3200 level, about 33%
  • A mild recession pullback on the Nasdaq 100 would be to the 7700 level, about 54%

Given the magnitude of these Fed-blown bubbles, pullbacks of 50% on the S&P 500 and 64% to 76% on the Nasdaq are easily in play. 

Headwinds of De-globalization are Inflationary, Adam Taggart and Mish Video

To better understand the Fed’s inflationary dilemma, please see Headwinds of De-globalization are Inflationary, Adam Taggart and Mish Video

If You Think I’m Bearish Please Read John Hussman

If the above ideas seem outrageous or unlikely, please see If You Think I’m Bearish Please Read John Hussman

Finally, Credit Market Complacency Gives the Fed Room to Crush the Stock Market

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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randocalrissian
randocalrissian
1 year ago
Typo: “The Nasdaq peaked on March 27, 2003”
s/b 2000 not 2003, per the chart above the quote. Surely readers got that, just housekeeping.
WendyBG
WendyBG
1 year ago
Regards,
Wendy
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
1 year ago
Conditions before starting to look for a bottom in the sock market
1.) Short selling temporarily banned.
2.) Margin requirements tightened
3.) 10+ bank closures in a week, for 4+ weeks.
4.) Very dark music or movies start to sound happy.
5.) Employment drops by at least 10%
6.) Major construction projects cancelled.
7.) Trips to the moon/mars, are put on hold or cancelled.
8.) Skirt/dress hemlines drop below the knees.
MPO45
MPO45
1 year ago
Anyone else seeing what’s happening in Sri Lanka? not enough fuel: closing schools and businesses.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
1 year ago
Reply to  MPO45
“Forget it Jake. It’s Sri Lanka.”
az_dirt
az_dirt
1 year ago
Fear porn? The 10 year yield was as high as 3.12% on 5/6. It’s now 2.79%. That’s 9% down.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
1 year ago
Reply to  az_dirt
Just normal ebb and flow in a much larger trend.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
I have another theoretical question: if the stock market tanks and the FED starts back-peddling on the announced guidance, will there be a sell-off or a rebound? Ignoring a dead-cat bounce.
Irondoor
Irondoor
1 year ago
Talked to my son this morning. He is on a business trip to western Canada. He was with a friend who filled up his diesel pickup. $400 Canadian. $10 per gallon. If that truck gets 12 miles per gallon, and he drives 200 miles per week, his monthly fuel bill is around $725 for his truck, plus his wife’s car would probably add another $250+. So, $1,000 per month just for fuel. He went to a pizza place with 3 other people at dinner. $145 US dollars. I asked him what the business environment was like there. Real estate super expensive, inflation everywhere and in everything. This was in smaller communities that are in the natural resourse extraction industries. Canada has high income taxes and it was his opinion that a family needed $200,000 per year income to manage a middle class life.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
1 year ago
Reply to  Irondoor
Where is he paying $10/gallon???
Average price in Alberta (the oil producing area) is only $7.70 Canadian.
You have to be a bit careful when talking gallons with Canadians. They still use the UK/Imperial gallon size which is larger than the US gallon size so the price will be quite a bit more. It also makes comparing MPG for vehicles harder because you never know if they are using US or UK/Imperial gallon size.
Roadrunner12
Roadrunner12
1 year ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I am guessing he is referencing British Columbia. Alberta has and has always had the cheapest gas prices in Canada. Yes, it is a bit confusing, when you buy gas in Canada, it is always priced in Liters at the pump. The US$145 for pizza seems off.
-3.78 liters in a US gallon
-4.5 liters in a Canadian gallon (Imperial)
Diesel averaging $2.22/liter =Cdn$10/Cdn/gallon
Gas prices in Canada. (google following) not sure why Ive been link sanctioned.
Think gas prices are high? Diesel is even higher. Here’s why that matters – National | Globalnews.ca
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
I saw a second story this morning involving the Taylor Rule. Chart included.
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Probing the Lows
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
1 year ago
Also, please keep in mind that it is “a market of stocks”, not just a stock market. Even with the “average” stock still very overpriced, there are some compelling values beginning to appear.
Example: intel. Trading at less than 7 times earnings and 4 times cash flow. Has already been taken to the woodshed – down 35% in the past 15 months.
Example: ZIM. Market capitalization = EBITDA. Just reported record earnings and raised 2022 forecast the day before yesterday.
MPO45
MPO45
1 year ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
agree 100%. There is a great deal of binary thinking here from many. Either housing is ALL bad or ALL good. Either stocks are ALL over-valued or ALL are under-valued. Then there are the unary thinkers (buy gold). Very few seem to be able to think logically here but glad you are not one of them!
i will check out Intel and ZIM.
William Janes
William Janes
1 year ago
Reply to  MPO45
Do not assume that a high flyer of a stock that comes down significantly in price will bloom again and recover lost ground. A common error in investing which is why people will hang on to a stock that has went down dramatically . People do not want to acknowledge losses. The stock would have to double and double again to rebound, does not happen very often. You will have plenty of time to purchase the stock if that is your preference. Wait for fundamentals to change or large investors view of the stock to change.
MPO45
MPO45
1 year ago
Reply to  William Janes
Do you think Apple will go bankrupt or hit all time highs when they announce their Apple Car? Same for Cisco? I don’t know how many times I have to say this so here it is again. I am buying value dividend stocks. I actually could care less if the stock goes up or down in value as long as I am getting my expected dividends. The key is solid business models with good management (hint hint I named two companies above).
And given the history of the last 40 years here is what will happen:
1. Stock market will crash or correct
2. Fed will lower rates and congress will pass stimulus
3. New bubble will form from the ashes, let’s call it the Fedoenix (Phoenix).
4. There will be winners and there will be losers.
There is a whole lot of garbage business models that I won’t touch with a ten foot pole and right now anything heavily dependent on energy is a no go. energy producers on the other hand are golden.
Rest assured, I didn’t get burned in the dot com crash nor the 2008 crash. I keep plenty of cash to take advantage of these panics and we are in one now. You do what works for you and I’ll do what works for me. The millions I have tell me I’m doing the right thing.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
1 year ago
Reply to  William Janes
Yes, there are stocks that turn into “value traps”, but I doubt that Intel is one of them.
ZIM is an Israeli-based container shipping company that IPO’d in 2021 and their market cap is less than the 2022 EBITDA forecast that they just raised on their earnings call Wednesday. They pay out almost half their annual earnings in dividends, so unless you think the company will be earning nothing less than two years from now, the stock is a screaming buy.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
1 year ago
During “normal” times this would mean a big day on Wall Street –
(Bloomberg) — Chinese banks cut a key interest rate for long-term loans by a record amount.
Those thinking Federal Reserve will save the day (when the time comes). Think again. They slashed all the way down last time, too.
Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Previous Tweet Explanation
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
1 year ago
How ’bout them sanctions?

“The ruble jumped as much as 9% against the euro, hitting its strongest level since June 2015. The Russian currency was up 6.6% against the dollar at 58.0625 in Moscow.

Capital controls, collapsing imports and surging energy prices have left the ruble about 20% stronger than before the invasion of Ukraine almost three months ago.”

Mish
Mish
1 year ago
Twitter was amusing today. Lots of posts looking for a melt-up.
I replied with this.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
1 year ago
This chart does not bode well for S&P500 earnings.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
1 year ago
“Before yields can fall, they first have to stop rising.”
Yeah, well, insiders want to load up at good price.
Having been around the block a few times … 2 things keep occurring … 1) crisis takes longer to unfold than I thought possible (hence, forever and a day … then all at once) and 2) worse than I expected (due in large part to crisis not starting earlier).
Sticking with my call of past few years that 10yr yield will flirt with negative at some point during coming crisis.
See it here daily in comments … and everywhere else … folks are concerned with making a Return ON Capital … even if everything goes downhill. When primary concern of folks turns to Return OF Capital … bottom will be near.
Treasuries – everyone’s current pariah – will benefit.
MPO45
MPO45
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
“Treasuries – everyone’s current pariah – will benefit.”
Unfortunately, I don’t like strategies that require the world to burn to benefit such as treasuries and gold but that’s just me.
PreCambrian
PreCambrian
1 year ago
I am not sure how well the 10 yr Treasury yield “rule” will work in this environment given all the yield manipulation.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
1 year ago
This was (and largely still is) the most extremely over-valued stock market in US history. (Japan 1989 remains the all-time global champ).
So there is no telling where the bottom is because we are potentially on the verge of a complete socioeconomic collapse. In that event, the bottom would be marked by the onset of the resulting hyperinflation, which would send stocks and everything else to the moon in nominal terms.
Zardoz
Zardoz
1 year ago
Reply to  Bam_Man
Are we in the ka of ka-poom?
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
A stock market saying that goes back hundreds of years is “Buy when you can hear the cannons and sell when you hear the violins.”
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
“Over the past five decades, only when the 10-year T-note yield plunged 135 basis points (on average) did the S&P 500 manage to make a bottom.”
In March 2009, FASB changed the rule on mark to market. Financial fraud is the rule, now.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
1 year ago
Reply to  RonJ
“In March 2009, FASB changed the rule on mark to market. Financial fraud is the rule, now.”
Pretty much. Last go round Federal Reserve opened its discount window pretty much every Tom, Dick, and Harry (not just commercial banks). The especially egregious part of this development? Firms gained access to discount window who were not under supervision of the Federal Reserve. Anything Went. And did.
Having said that, that is why a financial crisis will erupt outside of Wall Street (the above a case of generals fighting the last war) … offshore? Derivatives? Shadow banking? Whatever starts it will catch TPTB by surprise.
MPO45
MPO45
1 year ago
Excellent post mish. Hard data, good analysis, and thoughtful commentary. On CNBC this morning, the talking heads were begging for 100 basis point hike. Inflation is out of control and that has been affirmed by Walmart, Target and every other company reporting.
On top of all this is labor shortage, supply chain disruptions (china in chaos), energy inflation, food inflation (war in europe), de-globalization, and million+ boomers leaving the workforce annually.
Despite all of this, I am still picking up value dividend stocks slowly but surely one small bite at a time.
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
Reply to  MPO45
“On CNBC this morning, the talking heads were begging for 100 basis point hike.”
I saw a chart comparison the other day, between the FED rate and the Taylor Rule rate. Taylor was around 10%. The FED and the Taylor Rule are miles apart, regardless whether the FED should be following it or not.
RonJ
RonJ
1 year ago
“History suggests markets bottom after the yield on the 10-year treasury note drops significantly.”
History also suggests that bubbles deflate back to where they began. Tulips, anyone?
If Klaus Schwab has his way, the people won’t own anything and be happy, anyway.

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