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Trading Oil in Yuan, Would it Matter At All?

Death of the dollar stories surface every year. Here is another one that will likely be blown out of proportion in a number of places.

Reuters reports Xi calls for oil trade in yuan at Gulf summit in Riyadh.

President Xi Jinping told Gulf Arab leaders on Friday that China would work to buy oil and gas in yuan, a move that would support Beijing’s goal to establish its currency internationally and weaken the U.S. dollar’s grip on world trade.

Any move by Saudi Arabia to ditch the dollar in its oil trade would be a seismic political move, which Riyadh had previously threatened in the face of possible U.S. legislation exposing OPEC members to antitrust lawsuits.

China’s growing influence in the Gulf has unnerved the United States. Deepening economic ties were touted during Xi’s visit, where he was greeted with pomp and ceremony and on Friday met with Gulf states and attended a wider summit with leaders of Arab League countries spanning the Gulf, Levant and Africa.

At the start of Friday’s talks, Prince Mohammed heralded a “historic new phase of relations with China”, a sharp contrast with the awkward U.S.-Saudi meetings five months ago when President Joe Biden attended a smaller Arab summit in Riyadh.

Asked about his country’s relations with Washington in light of the warmth shown to Xi, Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan Al Saud said Saudi Arabia would continue to work with all its partners. “We don’t see this as a zero sum game,” he said.

We do not believe in polarisation or in choosing between sides,” the prince told a news conference after the talks.

Not a Zero Sum Game 

It seems that Saudi Arabia understands something that Trump doesn’t, that Biden doesn’t, and Xi doesn’t: Trade is not a zero sum game. There are not big winners and losers as Trump believes.

Second, Reuters reported, a Saudi source told Reuters that a decision to sell small amounts of oil in yuan to China could make sense in order to pay Chinese imports directly, but “it is not yet the right time“.

Selling small amounts of anything in yuan does not do anything but allow Xi to gloat over nothing. 

New International Currency

What If Amounts Were Large?

Sorry, that’s the wrong question. 

First things first. We need to start with what it would take for the Yuan to become a reserve currency.

What Would It Take for the Yuan to Dethrone the Dollar?

  1. China would have to float the yuan.
  2. End capital controls
  3. Respect property rights
  4. Have a bond market big enough (China has virtually no gov’t bond market)
  5. Inspire global trust
  6. Be willing to have trade deficits
  7. Stop export mercantilism
  8. Have a currency market big enough

At a minimum, China flunks the first seven. Numbers 1, 2, 4, 6, and 7 are serious show stoppers. 

Yet, every year, these stories surface. China will back the yuan with gold, China will do set up a BRIC block, China will do this or that (while this and that circulate between gold and other nonsense).

Six and seven are essentially the same point. 

For all the pissing and moaning about US dollar privileges, no other country really wants to stop their export mercantilism. The two biggest players are China and Germany. Japan was once a leader in that group and squandered it. 

Consumer of Last Resort

Every country wants the US consumer to remain the consumer of last resort. 

Even IF that changes (someone tell me when), there are 5 critical requirements a country must meet (#s 1, 2, 4, 6- 7, 8).

The Yuan Will Not Replace the US Dollar, Nor Will It Be Backed by Commodities

I have written about this many times. 

Please consider my March 15, 2022 post The Yuan Will Not Replace the US Dollar, Nor Will It Be Backed by Commodities

Like clockwork, rumors of the dollar’s demise surface several times a year. Let’s investigate the latest rumors.

Here we go again. Wake me up when China floats the yuan, has a large bond market, and is willing to run trade deficits.

This is precisely what the Saudi source meant by this is “not yet the right time“.

Pricing Unit Is Irrelevant 

Meanwhile, I assure you oil trades for euros. 

Regardless, the trading currency is meaningless. It’s the holding currency that mattersCurrencies are fungible. It makes no difference where a swap happens.

For example, it makes no difference if Europe sells euros for dollars to buy oil, or if Saudi takes euros and one second later converts them to dollars. 

A swap for yuan does not work because the yuan does not float nor is there a big Chinese bond market to challenge US treasuries.

This oil in euros idea spawned endless silliness about oil for euros being the reason for the Gulf Wars. 

US Dollar Weaponized 

Despite my cautions above regarding the yuan specifically, a day of reckoning is coming. 

For discussion, please see Unprecedented Fed Action May Have Just Started a Global Currency Crisis

The Federal Reserve Act mandates that the Federal Reserve conduct monetary policy “so as to promote effectively the goals of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates.”

Click on the link for the complete act. Nowhere does the act give the Fed the right or power to confiscate the reserves of sovereign nations.

But that is exactly what the Fed did.

In one quick order the Fed electronically rendered Russia’s foreign dollar reserves worthless, or at least unusable for now. 

Currency Crisis

Over the past several years I would occasionally make a statement that were headed for a currency crisis. Every time people would ask “What will that look like?” I would answer, “I don’t know.”

Today, I have a different answer: “Read this post and understand what’s going on.” A derivatives blowup of some sort is another possibility.

We are not at a full blown crisis stage yet. And perhaps we do not get there this time.

But when trade wars like these start, history suggests major wars often follow.

Make no mistake, the US is at already war right now, but it’s economic. These trade actions and central bank sanctions are the electronic equivalent of a naval blockade.

The Fed took an unprecedented as well as illegal action on Russia that constitutes economic warfare and may easily start a currency crisis or something even worse.

It makes sense for countries to avoid US dollar confiscation. For now, avoiding dollars is still very difficult in practice for reasons stated in this post.

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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63 Comments
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oee
oee
3 years ago
What are Petro states going to do with Yuans. They want to Europe to vacation. The European merchants want…Euros or dollars, or the local currency. They want to purchase Mercedez-Benz cars and other luxury items. They need..Euros or dollars. What they will do is to exchange those Yuans into $ and Euro’s. I can assure you the wealthy keep their wealth in Switerzland and they want hard currency deposits.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
So what can you do when the schoolyard big bully keeps taking your lunch money by force?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
transfer schools. or join a street gang to protect yourself. or just pay the bully.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
i would suggest in world history, the only requirement for an empire to be considered the owner of the “dominant” reserve currency, is for majority of of humans to accept the currency for payment in kind for services and goods. the term reserve currency is not a 100% situtation. there are a few reserve currencies in 2022. just USD and gold the dominant in central banks. along with EURO and JPY etc.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
The only requirement for a country to hold a reserve currency is their willingness to continually run trade surpluses with the country that issues it.
Japan accumulated a lot of USD reserves because they accumulated a lot of USD keeping their currency low. Same with China. The only thing that matters is #6 on the list.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
“For example, it makes no difference if Europe sells euros for dollars to buy oil, or if Saudi takes euros and one second later converts them to dollars.”

Here we go again! Let’s try a little thought experiment this time. Let us say the USD-Euro exchange rate is 1.25 dollars to the Euro. Let’s say we have oil at $100/barrel. And let’s say you have 800 Euros i.e. 1000 dollars at the current rates. This means you can buy 10 barrels of oil with the money. The seller of the oil can immediately convert your Euros to get the 1000 dollars that he has charged.

So far so good. Consider that oil rises to $125/barrel. At the same time, the dollar became so strong that it is now just 1 dollar to the Euro. If the seller of the oil converts your Euros to dollars now, he gets only 800 dollars for your 800 Euros. This means your money can now buy you only 6.4 barrels of oil i.e. 800/125 But if you had converted your Euros to dollars at the prior exchange rate, your cash is good for 8 barrels.

Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
In your example both the dollar and oil have risen at the same time. If oil were priced in Euros and both the dollar and oil rose at the same time you’d get the same result.
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
In other words the Euro price would still be Euro 80 per barrel.
Scooot
Scooot
3 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
Or alternatively your original $800 would also now only buy you 6.4 barrels.
The only way to improve your position is to speculate on the exchange rate which you can also do if oil is priced in dollars.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
I just illustrated that if you had held the money in dollars, you would not get hit with the double whammy.

That is the reason why countries are forced to hold dollars when it is priced in dollars. They are exposed to two levels of fluctuation – 1. FX rates and 2. Oil price volatility. If they convert to dollars, they remove one of those two uncertainties.

whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  Scooot
And of course, IF oil was primarily priced in Euros, then it would be Euro hegemony. But what we have is the dollar hegemony.
Irondoor
Irondoor
3 years ago
On a tangential topic, are we ok with Putin reducing Ukrainian society and infrastructure to dust and killing every last citizen? I’m not, since other authoritarians are watching and waiting. When the CCP attacks Taiwan and our bases in Japan and has direct access to the Pacific, what’s next?
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  Irondoor
First off, it is the CPC. Not CPC. The “CCP” abbreviation is deliberately used by the warmongers to scare people of “CCCP” from the Cold War days. Second, the US among other countries, supports the “One China Principle”. Third, the people of Taiwan recently voted out the party that favored belligerence against China in favor of the party that supports co-operation with the mainland. This feeling will only become stronger after they see how fatal the US “friendship” has been to Ukraine, not only so far but also in the coming months and years.
whirlaway
whirlaway
3 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
Edit: “It is the CPC. Not CCP”.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Irondoor
I’m not in favor of any of it. I want a diplomatic solution to end the war. A war which the US can’t possibly win.
mrutkaus
mrutkaus
3 years ago
So you’re saying if it’s not yuan thing, it’s another?
FooFooFed
FooFooFed
3 years ago
First there must be a discussion of the EuroDollar system. From there you will see there is no other system that can work unless a blockchain technology is used (note: zero crypto involvement).
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
The DOD encouraged Ukraine to hit Engels air base. If Ukraine dissect Kherson/ Mariupol axis Putin have two options : fly to Kuba/Venezuela or nuke. Churchill-II, the Man of the Year, wants to drag us to WWIII.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
US dollar peaked when we bought Toyota Tercel, Datsun, large Panasonic vid cameras, Sony tv and radio transistors made in Japan… When Japan PM had a flirt with China, offering them a fist full of US dollars, R/R kicked them out of US treasuries. Money flow : with that money they invested in Tokyo RE, the Nikk and Rock ctr.
After Bernanke told them to cut to zero, they stayed on zero, Gravity with Japan pulled us down !
The dollar will be gone only if we lose a major war. China protests. Iran protests. Iran stopped paying their proxies in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
What matters is the message to the US. Add in a move to central banks using gold as a store of value, not T bonds… Might lower demand send Treasury interest rates higher?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
most central banks have lots of gold as reserves.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
the us dollar is backed by war machine. petro dollar protection racket. the USD 100 paper bills will be traded for another century if not more. but the complete dominance of USD as the past century dominant reserve currency will slowly, very slowly wane. we’ve seen this happen half a dozen times over the past 500 years. it’s a yawn. there was a time in world history where gold was currency of half the world, and silver the other half.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
3 years ago
Yes, a Petro-yuan would matter. As China develops its digital currency, everyone needing to use the digital yuan would be required to have a bank account on China’s computers. Just as Russia showed the world earlier this year, a joint energy project was actually a trap to control another continent. A digital yuan will be a method to control the world (a trap) as well.
PreCambrian
PreCambrian
3 years ago
I am not so sure that the Fed took an illegal action by freezing Russian dollars. It probably wasn’t a smart move however the dollars are US dollars and the US can decide if it wants to honor them or not. During WWII the US marked dollars in Hawaii with the word “Hawaii” in case the Japanese took over the islands. The plan was not to honor those dollars.
The US would be better off if the dollar was not the reserve currency. Then we wouldn’t have run trade deficits and exported our jobs overseas. You are probably right that nothing will replace the dollar in international trade in the near term. I predict that the US dollar will lose strength in late 2023 or 2024 due to renewed QE, there is a lack of confidence in the dollar, and the system that settles in its place will be the system of old (not gold) but a balance of payment type of system. If you want to say that it is backed by commodities you could but countries which can manufacture and export (like South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan) will also do fine. Countries might store their net positive trade balances in certain commodities that are valuable at the time, such as oil, gold, lithium, wheat, rice, etc.). Obviously storing wealth in agricultural commodities is only short term.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  PreCambrian
It doesn’t matter if the freeze was legal or not. It signaled ‘Beware the USA’. Along with ever-increasing debt, reputation will suffer. Allies will be less committed… Rogue nations will be more adventurous…
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
3 years ago

“China would have to float the yuan.

End capital controls

Respect property rights

Have a bond market big enough (China has virtually no gov’t bond market)

Inspire global trust

Be willing to have trade deficits

Stop export mercantilism

Have a currency market big enough”

I still have no idea where these supposedly necessary conditions for being a trading/reserve currency comes from…. Unless a tablet or two went missing, it sure wasn’t from Moses….

America blatantly violates 2,3 and 5. So those are obviously not necessary. At least for maintaining trading/reserve currency status. Perhaps for becoming a trading/reserve currency? America wasn’t quite such a basket case back in the days when the Dollar gained its current status. There is something to the notion that it could take a good bit more trust for “the world” to make a serious concerted change; than for it to continue with what is already there; even of the latter is obviously no longer ideal.

A big bond market is trivially only a good thing as long as the debt is serviced without creditors losing too much. With America producing nothing of value whatsoever; aside from ever more empty promises of a better tomorrow; that obviously can’t go on forever. The Dollar gained its position back when debt was being paid down. Not continually ran up in an ever accelerating fashion.

Ditto trade deficits: It’s trivially absurd to believe that guaranteed 100% trade deficits, for all future, would ever strengthen a national currency’s candidacy as a world reserve currency. Dollar holders hold dollars with the built in expectation of getting something, anything; other than just paper; back at some point. In at least some possible future. “Guaranteed infinite trade deficits forever” will never be a selling point for reserve currency status. Again; the Dollar gained its status back when debt was being retired. Not racked up at ever greater rates just to maintain some temporary illusion of solvency.

As for “export mercantilism”: A population which saves; does not render their national currency somehow less suitable as a reserve currency; than a population which makes nothing but instead burns everything their grandparents once made; then burns some more lent them on credit. Quite the opposite. And again: Americans once worked, produced and saved. That’s when the Dollar took on reserve currency status. Not once they all retired to a life of robbing others via debasement instead.

“Currency market big enough” is important in a genuinely multipolar world, where you trade with people ultimately needing to convert to all manners of other currencies. If virtually all you need and want is produced better and cheaper in China than anywhere else; holding Yuan is quite sufficient. Ditto as for floating the Yuan. That may be overstating things a bit; but if everyone other than China you need to trade with mostly will use your funds to buy stuff from China, that still severely limits the size of the currency market necessary for supporting such trade. A good case can be made that current currency markets are indeed vastly, grossly inefficiently, oversized; since they mostly serve as staging areas to facilitate the only trade which really matters: That of Dollars to yuan and back: What people really want is Chinese stuff. So they need Yuan. But the need Dollars to get Yuan………. Ultimately pointless middlemen are hardly efficient in the long run.

In reality: Like the Pound in its waning years: The Dollar remains the reserve currency because of factors America once possessed, but no longer do: Specifically, because everyone needed to buy stuff from America. Hence needed lots of Dollars. Now, like the late Pound, people use Dollars because they once used to use Dollars, and change; particularly coordinated change between multiple parties; is hard. Noone wants to be first mover, since it’s awkward to trade in Martian Musks, when noone else does. But the factors that once led to the Dollar’s preference in the first place; are now almost all more prevalent China than the US. The Chinese real economy hegemony may not be quite as overwhelming as the US one at the end of WW2 when everywhere else where bombed flat; but it’s growing every day. Ensuring that sticking with the Dollar gets costlier and costlier, and riskier and riskier, every day. That _will_ lead to some, at the edges and fringes, jumping ship. And it will happen like all changes to network centered nodels: First in a slow trickle, then all at once. Which “just happened. Noone could possibly foresee it” being spouted by the usual clowns once it does.

GruesomeHarvest
GruesomeHarvest
3 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
Some good points. However, i do think points 3 and 5 are necessary for long term maintenance of a reserve currency. But why is a reserve currency required? What is needed besides currency exchange rates are a mechanism to facilitate the exchanges of IOUs and some collateral. Gold used to serve as the collateral and worked quite well. It provides a great mechanism for keeping trade in balance and keeping governments honest. That is why most governments are against it.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
3 years ago
“But why is a reserve currency required?”
It’s not “needed.” But it is an extension of the same forces which lead to national currencies over of local and private ones. And to local ones over straight barter: It’s easier to compare, and globally more liquid; if everyone is dealing in something more widely comparable.
Gold is far and away the best “reserve currency.” By a million miles. But it seems to suffer a bit of an Esperanto problem. Which is exacerbated by invariably non-honest governments; which; every single one; would rather see their supposed rivals’ currency being favoured, versus being kept honest by a truly non manipulable yardstick.
That’s why Russia doesn’t sell gas in Bitcoin as well: Much as The Kremlin and Washington like to pretend to be somehow in opposition: Reality is they are each dependent on each other to keep their respective populations in sufficient imaginary fear to remain pliant and bent over. The Kremlin would rather kowtow to Washington sanctions, than risk Russians “going dark” as far as government insight into every tiny nuance of their lives is concerned. And Washington is no different whatsoever. Neither is Beijing. They each exist primarily to plunder their own captive populations. With any supposed opposition to the others, being solely part of the marketing program, designed to keep their respective domestic audiences pliantly subservients and uncritical.
GruesomeHarvest
GruesomeHarvest
3 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
I agree totally!
GodfreeRoberts
GodfreeRoberts
3 years ago
China has zero interest in replacing the USD with RMB, as it has made clear repeatedly since March 2009.
In a speech entitled Reform the International Monetary System, Zhou Xiaochuan, PBOC Governor argued that it was unfortunate that part of the reason for the Bretton Woods system breaking down was the failure to adopt Keynes’s bancor.
Dr Zhou said that national currencies were unsuitable for use as global reserve currencies as a result of the Triffin dilemma – the difficulty faced by reserve currency issuers in trying to simultaneously achieve their domestic monetary policy goals and meet other countries’ demand for reserve currency.
Tim Geithner told the Council on Foreign Relations that he would be “quite open” to the increased use of Special Drawing Rights, a synthetic currency created by the International Monetary Fund.
Dr Zhou proposed a gradual move towards increased use of IMF special drawing rights (SDRs) as a centrally managed global reserve currency
His proposal attracted much international attention. Economist C. Fred Bergsten argued that Dr Zhou’s suggestion or a similar change to the international monetary system would be in the United States’ best interests as well as the rest of the world’s.
Since then, SDRs have become the standard reserve currency unit, the IMF has been granting SDR denominated loans, and banks have been issuing SDR denominated bonds.
Expect a major announcement this twelvemonth.
GruesomeHarvest
GruesomeHarvest
3 years ago
Reply to  GodfreeRoberts
I wouldn’t hold my breath. In a bifurcated world, where NATO blows up pipelines and financial systems have been weaponized, its hard to imagine parties sitting down and trusting one another. The Biden Administration has frittered away trust and it isn’t coming back anytime soon.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  GodfreeRoberts
IMF and World Bank are the brainchild of the Breton Woods system, and ever since controlled by the USA/Europe duo. That card has been played away by asset confiscation and sanctions.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Oil is not zero sum. Oil fields are old and diminishing. The cost of production will soon be higher than extract.
China diminishing mercantilism met with the Saudi’s diminishing mercantilism. Two desperate nations trade with each other. China export debt and inflation to frontier and SCO nations. Debt jubilee is next if China want to stay relevant, otherwise their enslaved nations will rise against them like their own Chinese population. The Saudis get paid with diminishing Yuan.
Eighthman
Eighthman
3 years ago
If 2+ % of global reserves are yuan, then 2+% of the reserve problem is solved. As it is, Japan, China and the Saudis seem to be dumping Treasuries. Maybe global reserves will diminish overall and currency swaps dominate.
But what about the US dollar as dominant in trade? Even if reserves are mostly dollars, that doesn’t mean the dollar can’t be pushed away from being primary as to trade. And that will have big effects.
Finally, there’s gold. Nobody anywhere seems to be able to find a general substitute for the dollar that can be held and relied on. It may emerge as a challenge even if everybody hates it. What Else Ya Got, Glazyev?
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  Eighthman
any cursory study of reserve currencies know it takes many decades to dethrone the dominant currency. and most of them still trade centuries after their empires long collapsed. this stuff takes decades. yawn. it’s a snoozer. not a big deal at all. most dominate top of reserve ranks for roughly a century or two, only. yawn. gold however has always been a reserve currency. still is.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Eighthman
Crypto-based gold solves a lot of problems for international transactions. Inflate your currency as much as you want internally, gold is the global equalizer.
GruesomeHarvest
GruesomeHarvest
3 years ago
Mish,
I would say the US violates #3 and #5. The Saudis where supposed to be taken the woodshed by Biden over the Khashoggi killing. Thus, they may not be too keen in keeping their wealth where it can be seized. Likewise for India and other countries that have broke with the US over sanctioning Russia.
Also, not so sure points #4 and #6 are necessary.
I would say having a large bond market falls right up there with the US claiming it’s the indispensable nation because it consumes way more than it produces. How is being a debtor nation that runs huge trade deficits a good thing? One begets the other, but neither are necessary for a strong currency (in fact quite the opposite). The main thing the US dollar offers is liquidity due to habit. But the coming currency crisis will up end old habits.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
great points. amerikans seem ignorant and arrogant to the history of money and currencies. FDR made gold illegal as tender and even owning, which it was tender since us founding in 1790s. in first few monhts of 1933 and devalued it for foreigners by 75%. in 1971 nixon and in 1965 LBJ with silver did the final drubbing. the petro dollar protection racket following this by kissenger was a band aide fix. he was smart. he was frightened. he grew up in weimar and nazi germany and was scared of a repeat in usa. now we have the us war machine playing mafia protection by invading any country that dares price oil not in dollars. all empires die off. pax dumbphuckistan will is nothing special. and the real wisdom to grasp is it’s not a big deal. last i looked, portugal and dutch, and spain and uk and france and even russia are still around. all empires with reserve currencies that no longer do. takes decades and decades so it’s always mostly a yawn. i’m 100% sure this will be no different. nap time.
amalagoli
amalagoli
3 years ago
Absolutely true. What is interesting is that I see many comments on LinkedIn by ‘conservative’ commentators who seem to admire these big moves by China and Russia to either transact in gold or in yuan. They are quick to call for the demise of the dollar and they appear to root for these authoritarian ‘Austrian economics’ nations, without really understanding the issues mentioned in this article. Such is the fascination for authoritarian leaders they probably saw in Trump, plus hoping for the return to the Austrian gold standard myth.
MarkraD
MarkraD
3 years ago
The Federal Reserve Act is what the Fed is allowed to do without permission or direction from Congress or the Executive.
If they’re directed to take an action outside that scope, that action is as legal as the authority giving that direction.
Are you saying the Fed acted on its own without Congress or the Executive?
.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
it’s not about the dollar v the yuan. the problem is the petro dollar was put into place after nixon defaulted on the gold standard in 1971. if we don’t waste us tax payer money on us navy acting like a mafia protection racket for oil pricing, who cares what oil is priced in. kissenger as a german jew understood what could happen if one’s currency is untethered to nothing. his plan for a petro dollar protection racket was a good fix for a half a century or more. but amerikans are starting to question why. is the cost worth it. all reserve currencies fade away but still usually around for centuries to come.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
It’s always funny when they tout the yuan. And I don’t think CCP is in a position to make long term plans. Of course the replacement for them will probably wind up even worse. It’s not like China has ever had a government system that would even allow it to truly compete. It’s hard to imagine that whatever form of government replaces it will give up all that fancy cctv and other controlling devices. And it’s really funny about that gold backing. They definitely fear all that gold leaving their vaults. Not that it helps having it if you just let it sit.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
That’s the fundamental problem with gold. It just sits there and looks purdy.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  HippyDippy
If international trade was transacted in (crypto) gold-grams, with a positive trade balance, gold would flow to China. What China does to its yuan is irrelevant.
As for gold ‘sitting there and looking purdy’, gold can be loaned and borrowed–interest paid in gold, of course 🙂
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Paying interest in gold would functionally cap the interest rate at the rate of the increase in gold production (currently 3% give or take) or there would not be enough gold to pay the interest. (No, I am not confusing a stock with a flow.)
And the interest rate would have to fluctuate at some relation to the production rate.
Unless, of course, someone figures out how to make more gold out of something else.
Chrysopoeia anyone?
You can make gold out of mercury, but that’s very expensive for very small quantities and it’s radioactive.
Seaborg made a tiny amount of gold out of bismuth, but it was a really, really, really, really expensive process.
perots
perots
3 years ago
It’s not about replacing the dollar. It is about being able to print money for commodities ( oil), which allows them to keep dollars for debt service or whatever liquidity need. Also won’t be buying many UST’s for reserve if can print.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
Reply to  perots
close. the petro dollar protection racket was direct response to nixon defaulting on gold standard in 1971.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  perots
Print dollars for gold. Yay!!!!
MikeC711
MikeC711
3 years ago
So, serious question … hypothetical that the worst happens and importing from any OPEC country becomes infeasibly expensive ($300/barrel let’s say). If the US leadership were smart and decided to turn on all local taps (drill baby drill, build pipelines, increase refining capacity) … seems like we could produce more LNG and oil pretty quickly … and maybe added pipelines could complete in 6 months (ideally) … but refinery capacity would take some time (even if gov’t were to cut red tape and move environmental protesters). So with the wind at our backs … do we have the energy stores to be totally self-sufficient (I think we do … although with different grades for different purposes, there may be some holes) … and how long before we could actually have all parts moving together?
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeC711
“do we have the energy stores to be totally self-sufficient (I think we do”
Sorry. The US does not have a lot of proven oil reserves left, at a reasonable price. Without imports the US only has around 5 years of proven reserves remaining. Even with an all out effort, we might extend that to 7 or 8 years. By importing oil, we extend our reserves for much longer.
In addition, you could not pump it all in 5 years anyway. Oil fields are pumped at rates that prolong their lives in an optimal way. Some wells will be producing for many decades if you don’t push them too hard. The harder you push them, the faster they decline and the less you get out of them in total. So we are far better to keep importing as much as we can so we don’t use our oil reserves up too fast.
Nat gas is in far greater supply.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
There are ~ 3 trillion barrels of oil shale in Green River Formation in Wyoming. In addition, there are 1.32 trillion barrels in Uinta Basin. This is only slightly lower than the estimated 1.53 trillion barrels for the adjacent Piceance Basin, Colorado. Together, these proven reserves dwarf the known world’s proven oil reserves. Not sure what the viable price is for these reserves, but $100 a barrel may just be enough. Don’t worry though Joe Biden won’t let XOM recover any of it. Rather, he let Saudi Arabia & China take over the oil market, since our future lie in EV’s powered by sun & wind. Just don’t park your EV in the house when charging, but feel free to let the DOJ have your laptop with tons of incriminating data on it while Twitter, FB, Google MSM et al run psyops for you and your misdeeds.
Oil being sold in Yaun would clearly represent the beginning of the end of US dollar hegemony. Timeframe to collapse is anyone’s guess.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
I know about these deposits. As do the oil companies.
Let me know when these deposits are economical to extract. Because everyone who has tried it so far has given up.
Maybe if oil gets to $200, oil companies will revisit these deposits and try again. Till then you might as well be talking about mining the moon.
My statement again was: The US does not have a lot of proven oil reserves left, at a reasonable price.
Which is reality.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
What’s a reasonable price for a commodity that the current administration is hostile towards? And we all know it’s not $200. The horizontal drilling perfected in the Permian Basin & fracking for NG could easily be adapted to go after a significant portion of these harder to get to deposits. And like I said in my post, Biden won’t let XOM recover any of it, so yes, the discussion is admittedly moot under the current political climate.
Now, let’s see the Permian Basin go into decline while there’s still great demand for oil, and all of that changes, including the price of oil. Hell, just getting Saudi Arabia to start selling oil in Yuan might be enough to disrupt the balance of power of what we pay to get the kingdom’s oil.
And there’s enough reserves on public lands in Alaska & the artic that we don’t need these harder to get to proven reserves for a while longer. And if solid state batteries go primetime in the next 5 years, this will accelerate the demand for oil. Hopefully, DeSantis will push really hard to get SMRs up and running, so we can actually charge all of these vehicles.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
* this will slowly decelerate the demand for oil.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
“Hope” is not a plan.
US oil reserves were in decline until fracking tech was developed. Which reversed the decline for a decade. Now we are in decline again.
US oil companies are not willing to spend much more on fracking now as profit margins decline, now that the easy pickings are done. Tier one deposits are close to being all drilled now and companies are hesitant to move on to Tier two deposits. Let alone Tier 3.
And you think that they will move to what would be Tier 4 or 5 deposits? I can’t even imagine what incentives would need to be provided by govt in order to get them to do that. So until oil prices get to $200, US proven reserves will continue to decline. And we will need to import as much oil as possible to slow that decline.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Neither one of us are petrol engineers, so we’re both guessing what price at which the Green River Basin would become viable. Until the political climate or need to go after them changes, all of this speculating is just that, speculating / moot. Neither one of is right or wrong.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe

You don’t have to be a petroleum engineer to understand what is going on. But you have to be out of touch with reality if you think that Green River will be accessed in any meaningful way in the next decade.

thomsoni
thomsoni
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Resources aint proven reserves, unless they are economic to produce at todays prices….
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  thomsoni
Sure. But they’re proven, so if we ever need them, then we can start bringing the oil to market. And with advances in horizontal drilling, $100 oil makes these proven reserves very viable. For now, there’s no reason to go after the Permian Basin isn’t in decline just yet, and like I said, Biden wouldn’t allow it anyway. Let’s see what 8 years of DeSantis brings.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
You don’t understand the difference between a resource and a proven reserve.
Proven reserves are a subset of a resource that has been discovered. Proven reserves are the portion of that resource that can be extracted at a profit.
There are no proven reserves at Green River.
We have also identified resources on asteroids, the moon and other planets. But we cannot extract them at a profit either.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Would it not be a good plan to leave American oil under American ground and use up everybody else’s oil first? The Americans can always dig some up later.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
That’s why it is good that Russia is reducing production rates and not pushing wells too hard so that they will last longer and Russia will produce more oil in total. 🙂
Winn
Winn
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeC711
Its not the point US has sufficient oil for herself or not. The point is “will the world trade oil in
Yuan or USD”. I think “trading oil in Yuan” makes China and Gulf countries are quite safe from US
sanction.

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