Territory for peace or a total surrender? 
Trump Peace Plan Demands Major Concessions From Ukraine
A leaked report shows Trump Peace Plan Demands Major Concessions From Ukraine
The White House has been pursuing a deal to end the conflict since President Trump took office in January, but the details of the terms he and his top aides were offering Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky have been kept largely under wraps until now.
A draft of the blueprint posted online that the White House confirmed was authentic calls for Ukraine to cede the eastern Donbas region now under its control to Moscow and accept Russia’s de facto control of other parts of Ukraine where the front line would be frozen.
Ukraine’s military would be capped at 600,000 personnel and its goal of joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would be foreclosed.
Many of the White House ideas were so at odds with longstanding Ukrainian positions that some analysts called the blueprint a nonstarter for negotiations.
In addition to the 28-point plan, a separate U.S. document lays out security guarantees White House officials are prepared to offer Ukraine in case Russia renews the war, including “intelligence and logistical assistance” or “other steps judged appropriate” after consultations with allies. [In one word nothing]
If the overall deal is adopted, Russia would be invited to rejoin the Group of Eight, and promised, on a case-by-case basis, the lifting of sanctions that have deprived the Kremlin of hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue. Washington and Moscow would collaborate on artificial intelligence, data centers, energy deals and rare-earth mining in the Arctic, under the 28-point plan.
Zelensky, who has sought to align himself closely with the White House since a clash with Trump in February, took a conciliatory stance after a briefing on the plan Thursday, saying he was ready to work with the U.S. on halting the war.
A senior Ukrainian diplomat told the United Nations Security Council that Ukraine opposed ceding territory to Russia and other provisions of the plan. “Ukraine won’t accept any limits on its right to self-defense, or on the size or capabilities of our armed forces,” said Khrystyna Hayovyshyn, Ukraine’s deputy permanent U.N. representative. [Lovely – The war will go on until Ukraine cedes territory, my position for years].
In addition to provisions aimed at halting the fighting, the proposal calls for Kyiv to agree to hold elections in 100 days, which could see Zelensky ousted as he and his administration stumble through a mounting corruption scandal at home.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov on Thursday said the Russian and U.S. sides were not actively engaged in discussing a cease-fire and that any deal needed to address the root causes of the war—Moscow’s shorthand for its displeasure over NATO’s eastern expansion, Ukraine’s pro-Western tilt and the West’s dismissal of Russia as a great power.
Moscow would have to promise not to re-invade Ukraine, forging a nonaggression pact with Kyiv and Europe and not placing troops in land Ukraine unilaterally surrenders. But the regions of Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea, would be “recognized as de facto Russian,” the document says, including by the U.S. [That Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea would be part of Russia was always a given.]
A family rehabilitation program would also be set up, an attempt to address Ukraine’s outrage over the forced abduction and disappearance of thousands of Ukrainian children into Russia. Ukraine would retain the right to join the European Union. [Ukraine in the EU?]
Meanwhile, the U.S. would reap benefits from Ukraine’s reconstruction, which would be partly funded by the World Bank. The U.S. would rebuild Ukraine’s gas pipelines and help create a fund for artificial-intelligence projects and data centers in Ukraine. A peace council, chaired by Trump, would oversee the implementation.
European leaders are working on their own counteroffer for how to end the war on alternative terms and are looking to persuade Ukraine to back its plan, which is designed to be more favorable to Kyiv. Europe hopes to have the plan ready within days, but Kyiv has so far not committed to joining it. [Who cares?]
A senior U.S. official said that Ukraine significantly changed one of the 28 points in the version that appeared online. In an apparent move to expose alleged corruption, the draft had called for an audit of all international aid Ukraine had received. The language was changed to say all parties will receive “full amnesty for their actions during the war.” [Senior Ukraine officials siphoned off US funds? Gee who couldda thunk that?]
A Clear Path to Surrender?
If the report is accurate, we have a clear path to surrender. There were few concessions to Ukraine other than ability to join the EU.
Few realize that joining the EU would be decades down the road because of the required investments by EU countries. France and Italy have no available budget.
The alternate plan hatched by the EU is to take money seized from Russia and use it for Ukraine defense.
The EU plan was never alive to begin with, but as recently as three days ago I saw it circulating again.
I never thought Ukraine would hold Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea, or that Volodymyr Zelensky would survive as president.
Still, it’s important to note that Russia did not take over the whole country or install a puppet government as originally intended.
Once a stalemate settled in on these existing war lines, something like the current proposal was inevitable.
What’s the Real Background Story Behind Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine?
On February 24, 2022 I asked, and answered the question What’s the Real Background Story Behind Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine?
What Happened in Ukraine?
The mess today in Ukraine has its roots in the 2014 when democratically elected Ukrainian President Yanukovych was toppled in a US-backed coup.
Q: Why did the US want to get rid of Yanukovych?
A: Because he was against Ukraine joining NATO.The current comedian president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, repeated two days ago his desire to join NATO.
I use the term comedian because he literally is a comedian who ran for office and won.
What’s the Goal?
On November 7, 2023, I asked If the US Has a Goal in Ukraine or Israel, What the Hell Is It?
We still don’t have a clearly defined goal or a clearly defined amount of money we are willing to spend.
But we do know that support for endless wars is not unlimited.
Related Posts
March 16, 2024: Ukraine Won’t Win the War, It’s Time for a New Strategy
Support for Ukraine is waning in the US and has totally dried up in Germany. French president Emmanuel Macron is making a symbolic last stand but it’s more likely to backfire than help Ukraine.
Let’s go back to a trio of 2022 posts of mine.
Please consider my July 10, 2022 post As Long as it Takes: Ukraine War Goal Is Now to Win Through Exhaustion
Expect a Bloody Protracted War
NATO is committed to support for ‘as long as it takes’—not to win, only to stave off Russian victory says the Wall Street Journal.
How many people died in this futile “as long as it takes” effort?
August 27, 2022: Ukraine Violent Stalemate Sets In, How Long Can It Last?
Ultimately, this will end in a negotiated settlement. How long can Ukraine deal with 60% inflation? EU with energy costs? Russia with difficulty in getting parts and losing military equipment?
April 8, 2022: Sometimes the Best Thing to Do Is Nothing At All
After pointing out how much US and EU sanctions have backfired, someone asked me what I would do.
I responded, why do I have to do anything?
The urge to do something should not be so intense that it overpowers analysis as to whether any actions can possibly work.
It’s Complicated
Eurointelligence addressed the issue in a post simply called It’s Complicated
A war crimes trial can only happen if Russia loses the war, if there is regime change in Russia, if the new government is democratic, and if said government decides to extradite its previous leaders. This is not going to happen. For starters, most wars don’t end with a clear winner and loser. This will be one of them. Ukraine was successful in defeating the Russian offensive from the north, but Russia’s campaign is succeeding in the southeast. Remember the experienced retired generals who predicted that Russia was facing imminent defeat. The Russian campaign went badly, but they are still fighting. The most potent Russia weapon is not the nuclear bomb, but patience that outlasts the short attention span of western news media. Folks on twitter tend to treat this war like football match and who are getting impatient because the referee hasn’t blown the whistle yet.
The reality is that it is complicated. We noted some of our readers are confused by criticism of the western sanctions and our expectations that Russia will be able to get through this in a better shape that widely expected. We are no expert in Russian politics and military campaigns, but we know a thing or two about our own western pain thresholds, and the limits of our solidarity.
What we do see instead of a Russian defeat is that Ukraine and the west will eventually cut a dirty deal with Putin.
President Biden on Putin
On March 26, President Biden proclaimed “For God’s Sake, this Man Cannot Remain in Power”
The Wall Street Journal and perpetual warmongers agreed.
I suppose Putin might die of a heart attack or killed by his staff, but neither is likely. Pragmatically speaking, I agree with the Eurointelligence assessment “the west will eventually cut a dirty deal with Putin.”
There you have it. My April 8, 2022 opinion “the west will eventually cut a dirty deal with Putin.”
Many people told me I was crazy. The two existing camps at the time were 1) Ukraine would take back all territory or 2) Russia would take over all Ukraine.
OK. What did we get wrong?
Wars end with victory or when enough people get sick of them. The latter is typical and is also what happened in Vietnam.
Maybe next time the US won’t go meddling where we never should have meddled in the first place. That is the unfortunate moral of this sad saga.
But even more unfortunate, the US will learn nothing from this.
At some point, Z has to be realistic on what a peace treaty will look like. I’d love to see Ukraine figure out a way to start hammering Russia’s oil facilities, but I don’t know how much longer they can hold out. What would be great is for Ukraine to figure out a way to carry out a decapitation strike against Putin.
A thorough analysis, not far from what I predicted back in 2022. The advantage of Russia (in population, resources, territory, etc) made it next to impossible for Ukraine to win. The only way out was for NATO to join in significant strength, which was unlikely given the cost and potential for nuclear conflict.
The responsibility for the # of dead and incapacitation, on both sides, falls entirely on Victoria Nuland, Obama, and Biden.
Again, the big winner is China.
Most of the articles and comments I have read about the Russia-Ukraine war blame Russia for starting the war in 2022. They conveniently ignore the Maidan Revolution of 2014, which Russia regarded as destabilizing the region and a threat to Russia. It is highly likely that the Maidan Revolution would not have occurred without the meddling and financial support of the US, particularly American neo-cons like Victoria Nuland who worked at the State Department in those days. Nuland did not serve in first Trump administration but came back to the State Department when Biden became president. When Nuland’s boss retired late in the Biden administration, Biden nominated Nuland as her replacement, but it appears that she could not get confirmed by the Senate and she retired instead.
This “plan”, cooked up by Trump and Putin (via their respective sidekicks) was leaked with no intention that Ukraine could accept it…so you have to ask yourself why now?
Three reasons I can think of:
But what leverage does Putin have that is about to expire? It’s not like a whole load of information about Trump is about to come out in the next 30 days or anything 🙂
You seriously think this is about a Nobel Prize?
Trump and Putin appear to have averted nuclear war, and those 28 points indicate an olive branch, if you read between the lines. Imagine, a few decades without Russia, Russia, Russia.
This was a war that would never have happened without the US meddling (largely the result of Russia-phobia in the US Dept of State,) .As bad as the situation was circa 2014, once the Azov Battalion was neutered, most of Russia’s gripes could have resolved themselves fairly quickly. NATO would’ve backed down if it was apparent the US wasn’t backing them up.
This peace plan is the opposite: it’s a plan for bigger war down the road.
Very likely it will be US vs. China. Hopefully, by then Russia will have pulled away.
Zelensky, I mean, the White House should have accepted the agreement that the Ukrainian negotiators agreed to in Istanbul in 2022.
Agree, Ukraine should give up on the Oblasts that are Russian leaning….pretty difficult to see that not happening as part of a truce. However, the Western countries refused to give security guarantees as part of the Istanbul protocol. You can understand why Ukraine didn’t go for it…..they have been down that road two times before and been let down. Zelensky tried to explain that to Vance during the Oval Office debacle.
Who would be stupid enough to trust Putin and or future Russian leaders to stand by their side of the agreement. Russia left Afghanistan after years of losses the same might be true in Ukraine, if the Ukraine military was supported with longer range drones and other longer range weapons.
Um, didn’t the US also leave Afghanistan after years of losses, despite VASTLY better equipment. BTW Bush never wanted to go to war in Afghanistan after 9/11. He knew the US would likely lose.
Several years ago Kissinger also suggested Ukraine give up these lands to end of the war…that is, before he was told to heel by the powers that be and he retracted those statements.
Imagine that…listening to Kissinger would’ve saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Ironic.
That solution would do only one thing: it would inform Putin that he can use his superior military force to expand Russian territory by invading smaller non-NATO countries, and after symbolic support and much handwringing, the rest of the world will give him what he sought to end the killing.
– Territory for peace or a total surrender?
> More like Territory and Peace. OR No Territory and No Peace.
>> Trump has had enough of Z & Ukraine’s BS, so it’s going tobe Peace Russia’s way now, or you Lose Everything! Idiots keep losing Men and Land, but now they have an option better than both, and you keep you lives and Most of your Territory.
What a totally nonsense article. No mention of all the other concessions that Trump is trying to impose. It simply delays a new invasion and another Belarus. Shame on you Mish..as always total misunderstanding of European politics.
Trump could have driven to a ceasefire but chose total surrender instead which is simply going to lead to more bloodshed. By being tougher this thing could have been over a year ago. Wow I am sick of the US right now.
Agreed. This is a plan for rearmament and bigger war in a few years.
LMAO. Take the points one at a time. What is the risk?
Russia will have seaports for trade, means to trade, develop its natural resources, etc, and Ukraine can recover. IT is the EU that now has a problem.
Nice try Witkoff-Vance-Kushner (!) the Euros and the Ukies have just rejected a watered-down version of the goofy 28 point plan (the Administration geniuses showed Ushakov a plan that makes Russian an official language of Ukraine, and another plan shown to Kiev which omits that rather touchy point). DOA.
Grab your popcorn for Plan Ukie Obliteration, 5,000 FAB bombs dropped, along with 10,000 Geran drones and 300 Iskander / Kinzal’s every single month, while the Ukies are recruiting 16 year olds and 70 year olds and the Kiev regime steals billions from America while pooping in golden toilets.
“Ukraine’s ‘golden toilet’ scandal explained: $100M wartime corruption rocks Zelenskyy’s inner circle”
Don’t flush good money after bad, take a walk USA!
A large part of Ukraine is already Russian speaking and were PUNISHED because of it.
You can fight the enemy there or one day you will have to face them here.
There is no enemy there, just ““going abroad in search of monsters to destroy.” (John Adams)
If Russia can invade neighbors, then neighbors can get help to fight Russia. Would you cede 2 rooms in your house in exchange for not losing the rest of it ? How much would you trust your neighbor not to take the rest of it? Most people I know would have already attacked their neighbor by now.
Nobody cares about the two rooms. It’s all about paying Zelensky money to send more Ukrainian men to their deaths in order to “own Pootey Poot”. Even Zelensky himself admits it. x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1992138774831350013
The US will always meddle because they deny the sovereignty of any pother nation to pursue their independent policies. Plus congress his full of warmongering idiots.
“The number one objective of US post-Cold War political and military strategy should be preventing the emergence of a rival superpower.” (Dick Cheney)
Not much has changed since this was published
“THE GRAND CHESSBOARD BY ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI
American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives (1997) ”
Extract from “Conclusions”
“- US is global power and eurasia is globe’s central arena. The only alternative to US is “international anarchy.”
– Ensure that no combination of forces could expel US from Eurasia.
– Investments into Central Asian independent states is key, as well as a “central Europe” Ukraine
– US is probably last of global power. … US has a short window of opportunity.”
https://danleahy.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/The-Grand-Chessboard-by-Zbigniew-Brzezinski.pdf
The side
of the Monopoly board with the yellow and green properties were always underrated.
“Maybe next time the US won’t go meddling where we never should have meddled in the first place.” Really?
Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq again, Libya, Yemen, Syria, Ukraine, Iran, Gaza… Might be a pattern there. Continual acts of war counting funding the current genocide. There is apparently a Hitler under every rock, and every American president is Winston Churchill (lover of war par excellence). The US’s history over the last 30 years is the most warlike on any country one Earth. More than a million innocent civilians are dead in consequence.
No one in the ruling class suffers any consequences. And indeed profits from Raytheon & Palantir swell their bank accounts. So the meddling will continue.
Now consider who controls both sides of Congress and you come close to who is responsible for half of the globe killing the other. Or trying to.
The meddling will continue. Look at who runs the USA. Notice the East Asian nations haven’t been at war since the ’70s. They don’t have meddlers.
Nothing more than a complete surrender. Trump is our very own Neville Chamberlain. Hard to see how this is acceptable to Europe or Ukraine. Ukraine traded their nukes in the 1990s for security guarantees and ended up with neither. The US is a fickle and untrustworthy ally – why should anyone trust us anymore? The EU had better have a plan to ditch the US and go their own way.
The US voided the Budapest Memorandum (not a treaty) when it instigated the Maidan coup. Your last two sentences are absolutely true.
Who is our Archduke Ferdinand?
> The EU had better have a plan to ditch the US and go their own way
No way this will ever happen. Whoever tries pays a price. A vassal stays a vassal.
Trump is a modern day “Sir” Winston Churchill. After the UK stuck its nose into the war, ostensibly because of Poland, at the end of the war Churchill told the Poles to take a hike and live under Russian authority for half a century.
I never understood what claim russia has to that land. If was part of russia would it not have been part of russia when the soviet union broke up.
Part of taking over an area is making them speak the language you want for a generation or two. All of the old soviet union spoke russian. So i dont buy it.
Its ugly. The only thing that will stop putin is nato troops or some drastic threat along those lines. Know one has the stomach for it. Nato won sweden and finland. Trump just wants a peace prize he does not care about the big picture. My understanding is Ukraine has security guarantees for giving up its nukes. See where that got them.
Russia will keep trying to take over all the small ex soviet countries we can find on a map. We have no business in all the wars but at the same time all these governments are not gonna hold hands and sing kumbaya
Its just gonna keep plodding along. Maybe Ukraine can hang on long enough to pull an Afghanistan on them.
Its a mess.
You could have stopped with “I never understood”
Gorby forgot to buy title insurance at the closing.
Your understanding is fact free.
Before 1922, there was no place called Ukraine. Lenin established it as part of the admininstrative structure of the Soviet Union, somewhat akin to a US State within the United States. Stalin gave administrative conrol of Crimea to the Ukraine SSR in 1954. The people called “Ukrainian nationalists” hail from the western part of the region, like Galicia, formerly part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and sometimes ruled by Poland. The blue and yellow flag they fly comes from Ruthenia, a medieval Kingdom which is a tiny fraction of what is now called Ukraine.
Ukraine never had nukes, unless you consider a nuclear weapon at a USAF base in North Dakota to be owned by North Dakota. The nukes were owned by the Soviet Union, and by unanimous vote of the UN they were devolved to Russia, the deemed “successor state” of the Soviet Union. Same as Soviet nukes in Kazhakstan and any other former Soviet SSR.
Ukraine today bans the Russian language (one of a very few places on Earth that bans a language),even though the entire place and every town and city were founded and built by Russians under the Czars in the 18th century. They were part of Russia longer than the USA has existed.
But don’t let any facts get in the way of the dim light of a 1 Watt bulb you call a thought.
Thanks for bringing in some history. To quote AI
“The original meaning of the word Україна (Ukraine) is commonly interpreted as “borderland” or “frontier.” Historically, it referred to border territories, especially the frontier lands of medieval Rus’ and later the borderlands of Poland and Russia. The term evolved to signify a territory or land at the edge or border, often with a notion of a frontier zone or separated land parcel defined by natural boundaries or political borders”
And before all that Neanderthals ruled. How far back in time do you want to go ?
Ukraine has its own language and culture before Lenin was born. Yes it may have been part of the Russian empire.
But your recognition that Ukraine bans the Russian language proves it is a different region and culture, as it would not ban its own native language as part of cultural preservation.
All is correct except Stalin was dead already in 1954. Khrushev (a Ukrainian) did it.
Little harsh on that last line there buddy.
Thanks for the history lesson. All of what you said may be true from a certain point of view.
Boy they sure dont seem to want to rejoin mother russia. Tactics used by a conquering people to gain control over another includes forcing language/ same religion./ trade Etc. few generations hey you have a mass of people on your side
Cites and town are built by people czars claim them.
Sure the nukes are owned by russia. Where are they now. Not in Ukraine. Why because they are not part of Russia.
Its a complex issue to much for my little one watt mind. Seems to me though the vast majority of the people of Ukraine do not want to be part of Russia. If they did putin would not have had to send tanks in to do it.
If this “deal” goes through kiss the Baltic states goodbye.
Never understood the urgent push for Ukraine to join NATO.
Ask finland and Sweden
Ironically it took trying to join NATO for them to get invaded and destroyed. The Russians were always firm they would not allow it to happen. Very similar to us not allowing missiles in Cuba.
As one of the parties of this conflict, the losing one, its quite rich that the US have the bald face gall of proposing a peace plan to the winning party that’s not unconditional surrender.
Look at other interventions the US have undertaken…..not a single success for ordinary folk…..peaceful nations bombed and bombed until the US gets bored.
….It looks like a stunt. Perhaps there’s an expectation or hope that Putin will get sucked into this. But when you read it you see that very little is actually hard and fast—except for those items that Russia will likely see as unacceptable, it’s full of dialogue and discussion and expectations. Nothing really binding. This is undoubtedly why the US is pushing this hard while the Russians are denying that they’ve agreed to anything—Trump is trying to stampede the Russians. Much of the document appears totally unacceptable for any thinking Russian. Which is probably the point—to try to wrong foot Putin and Russia in world opinion….
….Despite the press treating these provisions as hashed out by the US and Russia, neither negotiator is operating in an official capacity. Steve Witkoff is not a member of any US official body but is a special advisor to Donald Trump. Dimitriev is operating in an analogous capacity for Vladimir Putin. Both should be viewed as agents who cannot bind their principals but can float ideas. It is not clear how much official backing any of these ideas had. The Russians are well aware of Witkoff’s inability to make firm commitments. When Witkoff met with Putin in early August, Witkoff presented a proposal that had enough promise for Putin to agree to meet Trump in Alaska. As has since been recounted, Putin felt it necessary to review all the terms with Trump in person and get his confirmation that Trump was on board with them. Similarly, Larry Johnson just interviewed the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesperson, Maria Zharakova. She said the ministry had not received a formal document. So as far as the Russian government is concerned, this is still a trial balloon, although presumably they will be in receipt soon….
That is not a peace plan; it is more than Putin could have ever asked for. It is validation of Putin’s premise that the “West” does not have the will to stop him when he decides to violate the sovereignty of Russia’s neighbors.
Javoll, Herr Merz.
I hope you are full of “will” and writing it from frontline!
Let’s us know when the Poutine hits the Thames.
well, get a rifle and head out to the front line where you can show those Russians the error of their ways
Why would anyone be delusional enough to think the US has the will to finish anything? Vietnam, the Bush twin war fiascos etc. are facts. Chest beating is not a fact. I won’t even get into the physical condition of most American males.
“Stalemate” is just a fictional prpoaganda narrative from Ukraine sources.
NATO has been totallt ddfeated. They just. csnt admit the fzct
sorry, was typing on my phone, hate the smallkeyboard
There is no stalemate. Russia continues its methodical evisceration of Ukrainian (and western) troops and agents. They continue methodically chewing up territory and working through the last of Ukraine’s defensive fortifications. They are not running low on men or weaponry. Sanctions have had little effect. They can keep this up for years – and will if they need to. Under no circumstances will they abandon to the Ukrainian regime those portions of Kherson and Zaporozhye not yet under full Russian control. I expect them to take Odessa, Kharkov and Sumy. Whether they feel the need to take Kiev will depend upon the degree of obstinacy of the western rulers.
You are likely correct. Putin has virtually unlimited people to throw at Ukraine, this being the whole current population of Russia. He is willing to keep sending his people to be killed. The pussyfication of the Russian people is sad but shows that they can be overrun in a future engagement because they have no real guts to stand up to Putin. China is watching this as they desire the east side of Russia.
As to Ukraine, this is the price it pays for not committing 100% in this war and following the rules laid down by the US as to what weapons they could use against Russia. If you are going to fight a war, it has to be all out and you should not let anyone tell you how to conduct it.
Going all out against Russia would just have gotten that many more Ukrainians killed or wounded.
No matter how many men you committed you were never going to beat an enemy that is multiple times your size in population and territory. The best that can be hoped for is to drag it out long enough for sentiment in Russia to turn against the invasion.
What’s playing out here is EXACTLY what played out between the North and South in the Civil War. The South never hoped to defeat the North, they just hoped to make the war last long enough and be costly enough that the people would tire of it and let the South cede.
It didn’t work in the 1860s and it’s not working today.
Worked in Afghanistan twice.
Yes if you are willing to allow your whole country to be conquered and live in caves for up to 20 years while conducting guerilla warfare against the occupiers. How many countries populations are willing to do that?
Especially when the Eastern part of Ukraine is mostly Russian people who want to part of Russia (none of Afghanistan wanted to be part of Russia or America).
you need to understand that Russia or China is just different beast. Think about Stalin, Mao and anybody in between. Population of those countries is accustomed to atrocities, genocides and just brute force. Millions of Russians or Chinese were killed by their own government.
So with Putin people just know the drill. Everybody is staying low, trying to not get noticed. If you die, bad luck, but good it is not me.
This is their mentality. So expecting Russia to oppose Putin is just naive.
They had their chance with democracy in 1990s under Yeltsin but decided to go back to strongmen tsar (Putin). Again this is their mentality, same like Arabs are not ready for democracy.
They watched Yeltsin allow the country to be plundered and saw Putin end the plunder. They went from poverty in the ‘90’s to relative prosperity now. No wonder Putin won reelection overwhelmingly. You’re right about some countries not being ready for democracy. Germany and Romania come to mind. Germany is trying to ban its most popular party. Romania banned its most popular candidate.
Every east Europe country went through depression in 1990 when soviet union collapsed. Czech, Poland, Slovenia, Lithuania, Hungary and also Russia and those former republic.
All those countries, except Russia are also quite rich now,actually much richer than Russia in GDP per capita and they don’t have strongman and democracy is doing fine there
Each country took their own path. In Russia majority of wealth is in hands of few oligarchs, in Poland, Czech or Hungary regular folks are much better off.
Again you need to be ready for democracy, cut corruption and not have one strongmen who doesn’t care about you, but have politicians actually interested in you at least every few years during election campaign.
I doubt you have ever spoken to a Russian. They correctly perceive their nation is under attack by NATO, and they will fight to defend it. About every 50 years some brainiac gets the bright idea to try to take over Russia, and it hasn’t worked out well for those idiots for the last thousand years or so. As a result Russia has taken Berlin 3 times in hsitory, and Paris once, but you never know, maybe next time it wil lbe different.Or not Ask the Swedes about how the Swedish Empire thought it was an easy looting plan to invade Russia.
Read the 2019 RAND Report called “Extending Russia” and you will see the plan – weaken Russia, get a regime change, and loot the resources.
So far, not working out according to plan, is it. In that Report, they devote a couple passing paragraphs to “but it may not work out”, though they give small chance of that. Reality begs to differ.
funny, I am from eastern Europe, spoke to many Russians but indeed not fan of their as my country was under Russia boot for 50 years.
I know communism and how people behave there, believe me
My take on Ukraine is that they are at their fault here.They should be seeking NATO/EU membership in the 90s like everybody else, but they slept it through and window of opportunity to escape Russia vanished.Now they are doomed. Some mistakes are just too costly and cannot be reversed
Russians have “no guts to stand up to Putin”? He’s overwhelmingly popular. You probably think Russia has lost more men in this war than Ukraine – which is ridiculous. For the first two years, this was an artillery war, with Russia firing 7-10 times as many shells, as freely admitted by Ukraine. The shell imbalance was so severe that Biden admitted he sent cluster munitions because he didn’t have the 155 mm shells to send. Ukraine had no ability to ignore American rules about which weapons they could use because Ukraine didn’t have – and couldn’t make – any weapons. Hell, the Ukrainians don’t even have the ability to target HIMARS or man the Patriot batteries. When Russia takes them out, Americans die. Oops, another “training accident”. That’s why Ukraine should have accepted Russia’s terms in Istanbul in March ‘22 – which they’d all but agreed to until Biden (Blinken and Sullivan really) sent Boris Johnson to kill the peace deal. The stupid Ukrainians counted on a country on the other side of the planet for whom the war was optional against Russia – which saw the war as existential. Dumb. As dumb as electing a rootless cosmopolitan.
Indeed, China should watch and learn. Not the PRC, the “RoC”. Don’t count on a country on the other side of the planet – especially when they don’t give a shit about you.
Odd how the casualty ratio is about 12:1 in Russias favor, those “human wave” attacks always discussed in the Western media are a pretty small wave, evidently. Which is one of the highest in the history of warfare, most wars are around 1.5:1 (we kill 3, we lose 2). The Russians aren’t even fighting an an all-out war by their standards, the rules of engagement are retricted, if it was a real war Ukraine would have been a smoking crater 3 years ago.
Recent leak of Ukrainain General Staff documents, which nobody but Ukrine disputes, show 1.7 million Ukraine dead as of a few months ago, getting closer to 2 milion now. According to the BBC/MediaZona (2 propaganda organs that hate Russia), all the Russian casulaties they can come up with are about 150K, and they try really hard, they would love to report the numbers you imagine, but they can’t.
https://en.zona.media/article/2025/11/21/casualties_eng-trl
China supports Russia because they kjnow if Russia falls, they are next. Taiwan is the next Ukraine in waiting. Except the Chinese are more ruthless than the Russians, a war in Taiwan would be over in about a week. The Russians don’t like to kill fellow Slavs with the same fervor the Ukrainians have to kill Russias
Of course, Trump could put more sanctions on China, and lose the economic war all over again. China manufactures all the cards, and their hand is 5 Aces, Trump has a 3,5,7,9 and 10 of different suits.
Trump is building 3 hotels in Saudi Arabia. He wants to get started on a couple in Moscow and St. Petersburg. To do that, he needs the Ukraine/Russia to end.
Since Trump can’t force Putin to do anything, like the bully he is, he will punch down at Zelensky.
I’d like to side with Ukraine but it’s difficult to do so when I don’t see 100% commitment to the war, exhibited by Ukraine’s continual refusal, from the beginning of this war, to draft the most able bodied people it has, which are its 18-25 year olds.
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Why would there be 100% commitment to the war against Russia when half the population of Ukraine considers itself Russian and can’t even speak the Ukrainian dialect? Besides, the heads of the Ukrainian regime don’t even consider themselves Ukrainian. If they’re lucky, they’ll slink off to Israel with their stolen loot.
She’s a relative of Dick Cheney. Hard-core Neocon
If you are not happy where you live, you CAN always move.
This is how the world used to work. But nowadays, those unhappy expect others to kowtow to THEIR wants and desires, even if they are just a small minority.
I bet that you can’t back up either of the accusations you make in your post with any kind of reliable cites.
“You can always move.” Always the rootless cosmopolitan. Yes, the Ukrainians can. And their women have. They’re bearing children in Italy while Zelensky sends Christian Ukrainian men to die pointlessly. Zelensky is currently embroiled in scandal because his ally, Timur Mindich, has been credibly accused of stealing $100 million by the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine – NABU – which is noteworthy, given that NABU was established under the auspices of Victoria Nuland, arguably to bury, not expose, corruption.
If you’re waiting for NYT or WaPo to report on that, you’ll die of old age first.
I was referring to the Ukrainians who want to speak Russian. They could move just a short distance where everything is in Russia.
Still waiting for your cites!
Well Ukraine has gone from 35 million to under 15 million in under 40 years. A low birth rate has played the biggest part but emigration is the other big part. And the most common country they left for was Russia. And the other 2 reasons for the decline is a few million voted to join their republics to Russia and well over a million have died in a pointless war.
https://eurasiangeopolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/political-ukraine-2010-election.jpg
How about this way “YOU can always move there”. ?
Drafting is just a polite way of saying slavery. You think the Slavs are Ok dying as slaves to the last man for Nuland or the other Neocons?
Say what? Every country in the world drafts or conscripts their youth for one war after another.
Ukraine is the ONLY country, possibly in all of history, that inexplicably refuses to send their 18-25 (up until about a year ago, it was 18-27) year olds to the battle lines.
Wrong, there are many countries that dont have conscription and never have had it.
In Australia in WW1 there were even 2 referenda to get the public to agree to conscription and it was a NO vote each time.
And Ukraine does send 18-25 year olds to the battle lines if they volunteer. But once you get to that age you can be conscripted until you are old and grey, old enough that in some countries the old age pension kicks in
The draft is indeed slavery. Been there done that. The military remains the fast track to the homeless shelter.
Were you a European general in a past life 1914 – 1918?
It’s perversely fascinating to watch the progression of the dominant narrative change from “we must help Ukraine against the intolerable, completely unprovoked aggression of Russia” to.. “yeah, we instigated this problem and only wanted to get our hands ‘so’ dirty but no more in hammering Russia – who cares about Ukraine – time to throw in the towel”. The public is starting to figure it out very belatedly. Propaganda pushing the former narrative was so widespread that nearly every American fell for it. Only now, the reality is dawning on them. Mearsheimer was right all along.
Jeffrey Sachs gave a very credible history of the conflict and the most likely outcome. He presented the facts in a long speech to the EU parliament It was quite well received by the members in attendance.
Prof Jeffrey Sachs EU parliament full speech |Ukraine & Russia|Middle East |USA politics..
Totally correct.
This is a very bad plan for Russia-the clear winner in this war. These terms are not even close to what Russia will (or should) accept. As long as Europe has warmongering globalist leaders in power, Russia will not accept such a deal. On to Kyiv and Odessa. Ukraine can set up what’s left in their country in Lvov- but only after a peace treaty is signed. If no treaty, Russia has no choice but to occupy all of Ukraine.
“Warmongering globalist leaders?” Was Russia attacked? Did any EU country violate or even threaten to violate Russia’s sovereignty? The only nation that has used military force against its neighbors in Europe over the last 70 years has had its seat of power in Moscow. No other country or alliance has threatened Russia; however, Russia’s ambitions for territorial expansion have been threatened. Let’s keep our facts straight!
I’ll clarify that I think the conclusion you draw at the end is mostly correct, acknowledging that we meddled, made terrible mistakes, and will learn nothing from this. However, Ukraine is not in a stalemate but instead has lost multiples of the men Russia has and can no longer sustain its forces along the contact line. It just looks superficially like a stalemate judging by the rate of forward movement by Russian forces. This too will not last as the last of the Donbass fortresses are being broken.
You’re mistaken. This is no stalemate.
progress is very slow and very costly in terms of manpower. If you wish to measure success in feet then the front is moving, but barely.
It’s been intentionally slow, and much more costly for Ukraine than Russia. Most (including myself) have been conditioned to in terms of the Gulf War where one side wildly overpowers the other and is able to advance quickly with minimal casualties. However, drone warfare has changed the game, and now it resembles a checkerboard where small pockets of men advance forward quickly then hunker down and spot/call bombardments. Meanwhile, Zelensky throws waves of new recruits to shore up defenses until it breaks. The West has measured success in feet so far because it’s the only metric that holds together the illusion. We should see much more rapid progress westward over the next few weeks/months, which is why DJT is in such a hurry to get a deal done.
The Russians will not accept domination by any western-influenced action. In their truth, they do not want all of Ukraine- they wish to protect those who settled there during the time of the Soviet Union. They will accept global incineration if if comes to that, patriotism is deeper than we Americans know. Beware. Russia bore the brunt against the Nazis. They know this and will not forget. It was Russia that defeated Hitler. Their blood, their suffering, destroyed the fascists. These things I hear from my Russian friends. Are they true? I do not know. I know that they were formidable and fearful adversaries to the Germans. My first wife was German and her family thought so and suffered thereby in 1945.
Agree, but the Russian population within Ukraine isn’t limited to those who settled there during Soviet times. Look up Hughesova – now Donetsk. It was founded in “the Russian Empire”. The people spoke Russian, belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church. The Ruthenians were not the core of Ukraine and Russia grew out of the Kievan Rus,
Let’s be real when talking about history. Yes, Russia suffered unimaginable losses fighting the Nazis, but we must never forget that Russia’s hand was forced to fight against Hitler’s forces. Russia/Stalin’s first impulse was to ally with Hitler. It was not until Hitler double-crossed Stalin that Russia was FORCED to fight against Nazi Germany. Again, Russia did not choose to ally with the U.S. and Britain; Stalin was forced to do so.
It was not Stalins first impulse to ally with Germany. He first asked Britain/France how many men they would mobilize if Germany invaded Poland. When they told him it would be a handful of divisions he realized they had no intention of going to war for Poland. At that point he switched to an alliance with Germany to stave off immediate invasion.
His goal was to buy time to re-arm since he had purged the Russian military in the 30s due to fears of a coup.
Really, ok! That would change one’s view of Stalin and Russia’s virtue, Stalin’s ability to discern good from evil? Here is what happened in 1939: Stalin entered an alliance with Hitler on August 23, 1939, with the signing of the non-aggression pact known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. This agreement, which included a secret protocol to divide Eastern Europe, allowed Germany to invade Poland without Soviet interference and paved the way for World War II.
Ring up General Schwarzkopf for “shock and awe”!
Actually, Russian success is not measured in feet, but in square miles.
Choose your time frame daily, weekly or monthly.
https://www.russiamatters.org/news/russia-ukraine-war-report-card/russia-ukraine-war-report-card-nov-12-2025
You have already been told multiple times by several of your more intelligent readers how the Russians are fighting (AND WINNING) a war of this scale without unnecessarily losing too many men: they don’t measure success in feet or miles, they measure success in soldiers killed and weapons destroyed.
And still, when the Ukraine will run out of soldiers, NATO “volunteers”, NATO weapons and Western money and the inevitable NATO capitulation will come you (and the rest of the masses blindly believing the BS our MSM and our politicians feed you) will be shocked by it and wonder how could we have “allowed” Russia to win since they were in a “stalemate”…
The Russians did initially try Western-style “shock and awe” and, at the cost of big losses, it DID work: the month after the start of the war the Ukrainians signed the Istanbul agreement.
Then the Anglos made the puppet they installed in Kiev renege on it, as usual, and the Russians switched strategy and prepared for the true war that they wanted to avoid.
Crimea and the Donbas are not Ukraines to bargain over. They belong to the people that live there and those people chose to merge with Russia.
Will the UK and others pay reparations to the people of the Donbas? Maybe Nuland and others should be charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity for their involvement since 2014 (and likely earlier) in the deaths of over a million Ukrainians.
I believe that in an honest vote they would have voted to join Russia,
The vote in Crimea was honest (enough) and extremely lopsided.
A vote should be the core of any peace plan. Both Ukraine and Russia should agree to a ceasefire and withdrawal of forces from the Eastern territories that Russia seeks. A period of cooling off, to include a return of prisoners and the thousands of children that Russia has taken, should be agreed to. A future date should be set for an internationally observed vote in these regions on whether to remain part of Ukraine or become independent states with autonomous governments that can decide for themselves what their future holds. Once these elections are held, they become instantly binding, and the Ukraine that remains will be unencumbered by any restrictions on the size of its military or its future concerning the EU and NATO.
This is the only fair compromise peace agreement that satisfies neither side and puts the fate of the people in the disputed regions in the people’s hands, which is always what the United States should be pushing for.
I guess that you do not realize how a Constitutional system works. Territory is not determined by referendum. You speak about the involvement of the U.S.in supporting the democratic voices within the Ukrainian government as if that is somehow illegitimate and even a violation of some law. It is most certainly not. The words of our Constitution virtually obligate the United States to stand up for those people around the world who seek freedom and believe, as we do, that all persons are endowed with unalienable rights. On the other hand, there is always a nation like Russia that disavows our ideals and meddles in countries to undermine the voices and actions of those who desire self-determination and freedom. We do not stand on the sidelines and allow nations like Russia to undermine vulnerable democracies.
Oh my God. What a bunch of horseshit. It’s not Russia with 900+ military bases through the world. No country meddles more in the affairs of other countries than the US. If that means backing “self determination”, they’ll go that route, but they have no compunction about overturning results of legitimate elections. The Maidan coup was just one example. We could look back to overthrowing Mossaddegh in 1953, or as recently as paying off Pakistani MP’s to imprison Imran Khan. As far as the purported inviolability of boundaries and the supposed irrelevance of the will of the people in a region,the US disregarded that entirely to forcibly create Kosovo, a “country” recognized as independent by only a few other countries.
Of course, we support democracies like Saudi Arabia or peaceful rulers like Netanyahu all in the interest of everything good. Children should be banned from this forum.
Much territory in the 19th and 20th centuries was determined by some Brit with a surveyor’s wheel.
The ‘Brit’ you allude to was Balfour.
Funny. But, worse, perhaps the critical “technology” used wasn’t a surveyor’s wheel but a bank transfer. 😉
I guess that you do not realize how our wonderful rules-based order works.
The Russians are following it to the letter after seeing it at work for example in Yugoslavia where the West decided that you do not even need a referendum to establish which territory belongs to whom…
The Americans and “the West” are not even close to perfect. Still, only Russia/Soviet Union has forcibly imprisoned entire populations behind a physical wall or armed borders restricting the free movement of the people. When “the West” has made mistakes, at least for the most part, it has done so to unshackle populations or put down governments that oppress their populations. You must remember that “the West,” liberal democracies have a core foundational belief that all people are created equal and every person on earth should rightfully be free to determine his or her chosen destiny. No person should be less than another because of their social status, their political status, their gender, or their religion.
Interesting how you write “Russia/Soviet Union” but not, for example, the West/Nazi Germany…
Selective memory or simple ignorance of history?
Anyway:
1. 2025’s Russia has NOTHING to do with the Soviet Union. The EU and the UK are today, on the contrary, very close to it and getting closer by the day…
2. Your beloved Ukraine was an integral part of the Soviet Union too, it actually was its second most important part after Russia and contributed many top rulers to it…
3. What the core foundational believes of our precious liberal democracies actually are is finally becoming apparent to all but the most brainwashed blind believers like yourself.
As a EU subject, I can’t wait to see this evil, dystopian, globalist project crash and burn and the strategic defeat in Ukraine will most probably be the final nail in the coffin for both the EU and the UK, not to talk about the end of the NATO aggressive alliance and the cutting down to size of the rapidly declining US power…
Nothing is stopping you from relocating to Moscow.
1. Why is it me and people like me who have to move out of their home, why is it not you and people like you? After all, it’s you liberal freaks who have changed (FOR THE WORSE) our societies, I simply want back the society I grew up in. I didn’t want to change it and I didn’t change it, you did.
2. I do have a home in “pre-2014” Russia, 5 hours from Moscow, and an apartment in Donbas (not mine actually but my wife’s who is from there).
My wife and children moved to Russia for good at the end of the summer, I am in Italy to finalize the sale of my properties and car and to organize moving the money out of this EU hellhole.
From afar and with much pleasure, I will watch this insane clownshow reaching its only possible and inevitable end: economic and societal collapse.
I have bets on with friends about which country will descend into chaos first, the top 3 are France, the UK and Germany.
Personally, I am betting on (and hoping for) Perfidious Albion.
But I will enjoy the fall of all 3 plus all of the rest of the “combined West”.
> No person should be less than another because of their social status, their political status, their gender, or their religion.
So you oppose the Banderan and implicitly NATO’s oppression of russian language, religion, and people in Donbas? You’re on Moscow’s side, I guess.
Are you serious? If you are my guess, is you are in your teen years.
Oh, I wish! I have probably been around longer than you.
Funny, in multiple ways. But about this:
>> The words of our Constitution virtually obligate the United States to stand up for those people around the world who seek freedom and believe, as we do, that all persons are endowed with unalienable rights.
Does that include people living within the USA holding USA citizenship? Because the puppets in D.C. and even the state capitols do not stand up for us. They stand up for their donors and themselves and trash the Bill of Rights routinely.
Maybe the agreement should include Ukraine receiving at least 30% of their Nukes back from Russia as a real deterrence to support Ukrainian future security and as a specific remedy for the 2022 evidenced base failure of Russian promises in the 1994 Budapest’s guarantees … the US administration needs a reality check on how authoritarian Russian leadership really operates ….
Good luck with that
Interesting …. an intended completely sarcastic over-the-top comment with the object to show that Russian security guarantees (and American and British – all three who signed the 1994 Ukranian security treaty) are two out of three country completely worthless. How many think that Putin doesn’t have covert leverage over the great domestic and international. peacemaker? (more end prepositional sarcasm)
Negative Russian comment … Russian Bots very active in the thumbs up/down section.
When a formerly defensive alliance turns offensive (see Serbia) and then tells you “we are going to take your former hinterlands into our offensive alliance AND then we are going to station nuclear missiles right on your border only a few hundred miles from your capitol city”, which is what Little Blinken told Lavrov in January 2022, then you have FAFOd
Those who have supported Ukraine are accessories to the murder of 1.5 MILLION Ukrainian men and 200-500,000 Russian men. They are also the supporters of actual Nazzis
And that would be the Western Intel Blob and its masters, the shadow government that ran America up until about 9 months ago and is still trying to do so today.
The shadow government selected trump too. Do you see how useful he is? Starting in his 1st term and continuing now, the narrative assigned to EU leaders is to use Trump to convince their serfs that they must divert healthcare to weapons “because Trump proves Europe cannot rely on USA for its defense”.
It’s a lie, of course, because no matter how much their leaders spend on weapons their leaders are still inbred, I mean, in bed with the same transnational interests. It’ll be even more laughably obvious if Brussels buys high-tech hackable foreign weapons.
But the point is that Trump is useful to TPTB. His “unreliability” provides Brussels with a second “justification” (the first being “Russia!”) to gut EU public healthcare, replace it with a system more profitable to them, and build/buy weapons.
Trump is also useful for shaking down “allies” with tariffs. After Trump leaves, any tariffs will stay. Just like when Biden succeeded Trump. And despite no reversion, the EU press will pretend the problem went away with the change in figureheads.
Agree with everything else you said.
At least the resignation of Keith Kellogg, Moron, is a good sign.
That is possible. Time will tell, but I keep an open mind on that for now. There are indicators both ways.
There always are indicators both ways. If there weren’t, their games wouldn’t work. They worked on me for decades.
Thank you for thinking it’s possible.
From article…The mess today in Ukraine has its roots in 2014 when democratically elected Ukrainian President Yanukovych was toppled in a US-backed coup…..That American planned Strategy is now failing and has cost millions of Ukrainian lives. The corruption during the Ukraine War has paid off bigtime to Ukraines Leaders and also to the Military Industrial complex from the West. Now American strategists to save face will probably offset this loss by toppling Venezuela under any pretense– and then gain control of one of the Worlds largest Oil reserves. The Endless Wars are supported by both American Parties now unfortunately– so little chance of things changing, it seems. Peace is now considered profane in America.
Where did Yanukovych seek asylum? The answer is that he was clearly pro-Russia. He opposed NATO membership and gave lip service to forging closer ties with the EU, which the majority of Ukrainians supported. His undoing was blocking a formal declaration to move closer to the EU in 2013. His lip service of support ceased, and the pressure that he got from pro-Russian elements in Ukraine made him show his true colors. Plus, he ran on healing the economic woes that Ukrainians were feeling following the Global Financial Crisis. As the global economy, along with virtually all others, recovered from that period, Ukrainians became more focused on foreign policy and alliances.
He only had one year left in his term and he’d offered an early election. The Ukronazis didn’t have to start shooting from the rooftops.
Ukraine gave up its nuclear missiles for security guarantees. Those guarantees were not upheld, so Ukraine should demand its nuclear missiles back. ___
They never had any. The only nukes were Russian ones that were stored in Ukraine when it was a part of Russia.
If they did have nukes they would have already produced new bombs since the start of this conflict. The fact they haven’t tells you they never had any to begin with.
Yes, Ukraine should demand that Russia send nuclear missiles to Ukraine. Also London.
Ordinary Ukranians – especially men – would be far better off under Russian rule than Zelensky. Example: probably not dying in trenches in a lost cause. Russia is reasonably less corrupt than Ukraine. More than that, the Zelensky regime is the worst government on planet earth – because No Other Government has the explicit extinction of its people as its goal – thus, “to the last Ukrainian” or “to the last drop (of blood”. Germany and Japan are the richest they have ever been after total defeat. Finland is similar. The truth that no one will admit is that war is wildly wasteful – and deeply destructive of actual freedom (as with TCC vans dragging Ukranian men off the street into almost certain death).
It is sad to witness that Zelensky is a “dead man walking” – whose only chance at survival may well be ONLY if the war continues. Ride the Tiger? Yeah, now try and dismount.
FWIW:
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2025/11/trumps-28-point-ukraine-plan.html
IMO, NATO makes agreements to freeze conflicts until they find a more advantageous time. So, what’s the point?
The West has proven itself agreement incapable. It took Russia too long to comprehend that. Even today, Putin has a hard time not uttering the phrase “out western partners”.
You probably read Simplicius76 blog. Have you read the comments from “GM”? Definitely an interesting POV.
Occasionally you get it right Mish.
unfortunately not on this occasion.