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As Long as it Takes: Ukraine War Goal Is Now to Win Through Exhaustion

Image from ISW Tweet below

Expect a Bloody Protracted War

NATO is committed to support for ‘as long as it takes’—not to win, only to stave off Russian victory says the Wall Street Journal.

Please consider West’s Ukraine Strategy Will Mean a Prolonged, Bloody Stalemate

Leaders of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization last month rallied around a new slogan for Ukraine: “As long as it takes.” When a reporter asked President Biden to explain what that means, he said: “As long as it takes so Russia cannot, in fact, defeat Ukraine and move beyond Ukraine.” Note what he didn’t say: as long as it takes for Ukraine to win.

The West’s strategy is to give the Ukrainians enough military aid to defend against Russian advances, and to counter Vladimir Putin’s belief that he can win on the ground or wait out the Alliance until it runs out of gas, wheat or patience—in other words, to wait Mr. Putin out. 

While the Russians are taking a tactical pause after winning a protracted fight in Severodonetsk, the Ukrainians are being resupplied with even more equipment and ammunition. Rather than win through maneuver, the goal is now to win through exhaustion. Both Mr. Putin and President Volodymyr Zelensky seek to wear the other side down, and the NATO promise of indefinite resupply to offset the Russian artillery advantage will likely result in even more static front lines.

As long as Messrs. Putin and Zelensky both believe they are winning, or at least not losing, and as long as they are listening to their generals and not their diplomats, it is likely that this conflict will remain a slow, bloody and long war resembling the Western Front of 1915-18. “As long as it takes” may make the Donbas into a 21st-century Flanders field.

Institute for the Study of War

The ISW makes many Tweets daily regarding the progress or lack thereof. 

Operational Pause

Batting for Putin?

People confuse being sick of endless US meddling and support for wars with going to bat for Putin.

Why Earnings and the Stock Market Will Get Crushed

A prolonged war was one of my 10 factors in Artificial Wealth vs GDP: Why Earnings and the Stock Market Will Get Crushed

Case for an Earnings Crash

  1. Recession
  2. De-globalization costs
  3. Retirement of 22 million boomers will lower productivity and slow spending
  4. De-carbonization is very expensive, do we even have the natural resources?
  5. End of a 40-year bull market in interests rates
  6. Potential for protracted war in Ukraine
  7. Central bank concern over reigniting inflation
  8. Renewed union push
  9. Wealth impact of stock market decline will itself slow spending
  10. Various bubbles have just begin to pop

With NATO and Biden committing to ‘as long as it takes’ while Germany and the EU stick with counterproductive sanctions, the case for a protracted war just increased.

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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166 Comments
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Oldest Most Voted
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
  • There is no infinite supply of ammunitions and equipment.
    We are going to discover who did their operational calculations better in advance.
    Remember, Putin said at the beginning the sanctions were inevitable anyways, and so far the EU seems in more sanctions danger than does Russia.
  • Bloody stalement: This is the dream of the US & the West.
    Russia will have none of it — they will proceed to destroy Ukraine’s military.
    Remember, Putin wants to destroy the unipolar American world hegemony. After Ukraine, he wants NATO to back off, and American troops off his doorstop, including their missiles. Russia has been gaming this since 2007, when they warned they would develop new asymmetrical weapons and that nyet=nyet: no NATO on their doorstep. All of this has been a long time coming. Every opportunity to create peace and undo the damage (all weapons treaties and promises have been torn up by the US) has been rejected.
    China & Russia no longer see the US as a rational party that one can deal with.
Carl_R
Carl_R
3 years ago
Reply to  Webej
And yet, Russia has accomplished the exact opposite. He has made neighboring countries justifiably fear invasion from a fascist Russia, forcing Finland and Sweden into NATO, and Georgia will most likely join as well. Moldava will have to amend their Constitution, but they may end up in NATO eventually, too.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Carl_R
Hmmm. Who has been encroaching on who since the opportunity presented itself after 1991?
Carl_R
Carl_R
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Several Eastern European countries had the desire to permanently break free of domination by Russia, and did so by joining NATO or the EU. Russia has shown that those countries made a wise choice by conquering Cechnya, part of Georgia, and the Crimea, and now Russia has their eyes on a bigger prize. So, in answer to your question, Russia does not want any of the areas they used to dominate to be free from domination, so they have encroached whenever the opportunity presents itself.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Russia has re-amassed troops along the NE border of Ukraine, inside of Russia and Belarus..
This time around I believe Belarus will be active in the re-invasion of NE Ukraine..
This time around Ukrainian troops won’t have cover or protection from the Russian assault..
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
One problem eventually you will see NATO disarming front line troops of their weapons..If the war continues on to much longer..
Several NATO nations have already stopped sending supplies, cause they already depleted them.
NATO can’t get mass produced tanks cause the ingredients for the armor comes from Russia.
Thetenyear
Thetenyear
3 years ago
DESPERATE AND DUMB
The EU sends billions to Russia in exchange for oil and gas. The US sends billions to Ukraine in exchange for higher food and fuel prices. The war will not end as long as the EU and US continue to support both sides. Sadly, the EU is desperate enough and the US is dumb enough to keep funding the war.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Thetenyear
Properly managed this war alone could keep Raytheon in the black for a decade.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
By the way, Ukraine is a significant grain exporter but not as big a share as I thought. In order: Russia, U.S., Canada, France, Ukraine. Not only is Uke #5, but they have been shifting toward sunflower because it’s much easier to grow, and more profitable. I believe India is a big buyer of sunflower oil, which has more uses than I ever knew about.
Jackula
Jackula
3 years ago
If Putin decides to flex or is given a good excuse he could completely cut off Europe’s oil and gas in Sept for a couple of months. The resultant $12-$20 per gallon gasoline in the US would have major implications for the fall elections and would bring Europe to it’s knees. I don’t see how pushing hard in Ukraine energizing the move to a multi-polar world is in the US empire’s best interest.
George_Phillies
George_Phillies
3 years ago
Reply to  Jackula
It’s trivial to break Russian gasoline boycott. End our embargoes of Iran and Venezuela.
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Biden, the pale white horse
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago
Yes, let’s exhaust Russia’s conventional forces so they use their nuclear forces to break the stalemate. A great strategy.
Winn
Winn
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
Nuclear forces is not needed.
Winter will fight for Putin.
Even now Germany is surrendering. Canada returned repaired pipeline to Germany and then to Russia.
So who is going to warm, feed, shelter Ukrainian refugees of 6+millions? And who is going to help
40 millions Ukrainians if the power grids are bombed before or during winter. Freeze to death.
Now Europeans are accepting the real situation. They are silent.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Winn
If Russia keeps Nordstream 1 shut off, Germany will have not a recession, but an outright depression. So will the rest of Europe, and it will include bank failures all over the joint. You have to give Senile Joe, NATO, and the EU credit. They did the impossible. They strengthened Russia; they handed Putin all the leverage; they weakened themselves; they attacked their own currencies. Yes, the dollar is up for now because of interest rate differentials, but that’s very much a short-term phenomenon. Putin must be laughing hard.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
As I said a week or so ago in a different post by Mish, it’s not good long term strategy to keep the gas shut off. You want to keep Europe as a customer once Ukraine resolves.
In fact if I was Putin, I’d take out newspaper ads (assuming they still have those – LOL) and TV ads proclaiming that Russia is open for business and will happily continue to supply gas once the pipe line repairs are completed. All the people need to do is ask their leaders why they aren’t buying Russian gas. Win the hearts and minds battle with the common person and you topple the western governments in Europe.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
It’s a complex equation, that’s for sure. What’s also for sure is that our degraded media will not provide reliable, objective analysis. I could easily understand why Putin wouldn’t want to cut off the flow, but I can also understand why he’d do it. Interesting times ahead.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I don’t believe Putin is laughing. I believe that he is planning several alternative next moves.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Long protracted wars have worked out so well for us in the recent past. Look at Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria for recent examples. The one time war wasn’t protracted was in Libya. Might be the worst place in the world to live right now. What can possibly go wrong in Ukraine? It’s not like we can’t afford to throw away billions every year while China builds up their military and commerce routes around the world that will allow them to control world commerce for decades.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
“What can possibly go wrong in Ukraine?” In a ‘senior moment,’ President Cluster Fudge orders transfer of tactical nukes to Ukraine?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Capt’n your sort of right. However, putting nukes in Ukraine would be provocative to Russia. So Joe and the Neocons will put nukes in Poland and Romania and Bulgaria and Lithuania, etc. That won’t trouble Putin in the least.
Max
Max
3 years ago
This will change as soon as the Europe economy starts to collapse
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Max
IMO, one of Putin’s primary goals of the invasion was to create a long-protracted war that would drive up fossil fuel prices. He knew this going in. He can sell all the oil & NG he wants to China to make up for anything that’s not purchased by Europe. Misson accomplished, Vlad! And FJB let this happen, willingly because he’s puppet of the far-left greenies.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Well. They do refer to the sanctions as “sanctions from heaven” in Russia.
Dr. Odyssey
Dr. Odyssey
3 years ago
War in Ukraine: Luhansk has fallen – what’s to expect?
Summation to date and speculation of what may happen next by Colonel Markus Reisner of the Österreichs Bundesheer.
Steve_R
Steve_R
3 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Odyssey
Thanks, good information, could be Putin’s long game is to take the farms, just like Stalin did before. (Stalin starved them to death) Not exactly the same, but history has a way of repeating
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Steve_R
From the beginning I said Putin should hit all the farms, grocery stores, grain storage facilities etc all while not wasting your own forces in direct combat (or doing so as little as possible).
Everyone in Ukraine must eat and the sooner you run down the food stores, the faster they will surrender.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
From what I’ve read, Uke grain exports are nil right now. This is a problem, because 45% of Ukraine’s GDP comes from grain. Winter wheat harvest starts in August, and planting starts in September. Ukraine will have enough to feed itself, but that’s about all.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Except the bulk of the farms are in the East and South and are currently under Russian control. So those people will eat but the rest of Ukraine will have to go begging hat in hand to Europe and the US.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Last I saw was that about one-fifth of the farms are controlled by the Russkies. The bigger problem is that Russia has mined some of the three ports where the grain leaves Ukraine. By the way, none other than Al-Jazeera has the best info on this. Imagine that. Never thought I’d have to go there for information!

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/17/infographic-russia-ukraine-and-the-global-wheat-supply-interactive

.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Your source says nothing about Russkies blockading ports. Do some reading.
The Russians guarantee safe passage corridor on a daily basis.
The ports are blocked by Ukraine (mined, sunken barges) which controls the Marsec level (they have it at 3), prohibiting any navigation.
Call_Me
Call_Me
4 years ago
Reminiscent of the playbook for the 1980s Iran/Iraq war. A shame so few people learn from history.
Call_Me_Al
Dutoit
Dutoit
4 years ago
Reply to  Call_Me
In this time my country (France) used to supply weapons to Irak, and was then scandalized to have Iranian terrorists perpetrate bombings in France.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Call_Me
To be expected, it is the result of recency bias, mass psychosis, and believing your own propaganda. WMD is a prime example.
prumbly
prumbly
4 years ago
As long as the CIA’s Man-in-Ukraine – Zelensky – stays in power you can expect continued fighting, but the war is basically over. Russia has almost achieved all its objectives and will soon start solidifying the new border. Ukraine will keep shelling over the border using their shiny new equipment, and Russia will keep lobbing missiles at Ukraine infrastructure and supply lines. Eventually Ukrainians will get fed up of dying for nothing and it will settle into an uneasy peace for a few years, until the CIA can stir up something new.
Dutoit
Dutoit
4 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
I think that the Russians perfectly understand this:
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
Doubtful. Putin wants far more resolution.
Ukraine is just the beginning of the operation.
Putin wants a new security architecture in which NATO stands down and there are not American troops or missile systems on his doorstep.
Christoball
Christoball
4 years ago
The host countries of proxy wars always get destroyed. Almost every country the US has engaged in or funded war in has been ruined.
whirlaway
whirlaway
4 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
Yes. As the saying goes – “When two elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.”
JackWebb
JackWebb
4 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
Foolish as the U.S. position is, it’s hard to stick the whole blame on the U.S. this time.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
It really doesn’t take much effort at all.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
All the US blame falls on FJB. He let this happen. His greenies puppet masters are fine with the war pushing up the price of fossil fuels. They want Europe to accelerate its move away from fossil fuels. Vlad invaded, in part, to drive up fossil fuel costs, knowing that he could start selling oil & NG to China. The moment Russia starting massing troops he should have pressed NATO to act in some capacity greater than what they have thus far, specifically with more drones & air power. Had those resources flowed into Ukraine starting in Sept of las year, Vlad wouldn’t have evaded.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Toot toot! Kook alert!
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Insightful. So one solution might’ve been to drive down energy prices, the opposite of what happened.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
So Russia decides to demilitarize Ukraine, an American/NATO dagger wielded over its head, and you think that more deterrence is the solution?
Russia is in this operation because of too much US deterrence on its border; obviously more deterrence would lead to an earlier and perhaps more dangerous reaction by Russia. Mutual deterrence is the same thing as aggression.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
What do you mean? The rest of Europe is sending a pittance in terms of guns/ammo. The Ukrainian army would have had to surrender in March due to lack of guns/ammo without the US supplying them.
JackWebb
JackWebb
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
And the U.S. forced Ukraine to take them? This happened independently of the EU? Look, I think the U.S. has acted stupidly, but it’s mondo f-ed up to blame the U.S. for all of this. That sentiment is the sentiment of resentful weaklings. They beg Big Daddy for X, Y, or Z, and when things don’t go well, they blame Big Daddy.
JackWebb
JackWebb
4 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
There’s an alternative scenario, in the form of an e-mail from Hunter to the Big Guy: “Dad, Mr. Zelensky gave me a message to pass along: ‘Send the money and the guns, or I’ll release the documents.’ Dad, he’s serious.”
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Exactly, and the same thing happened with the fake COVID source investigation. FJB is OWNED by the Russians & Chinese. All the dems were pointing their finger at Trump when Hunter & FJB were the ones actually profiting off shade deals and becoming national security risks. The lies and deceit coming from the left over the last six years is just jaw droppingly stunningly mind boggling. And the MSM holds them up to be Saints. The text message from Hunter about Jill shows you how much of a douche bag his is, and the apple didn’t fall far from the tree, that’s for sure.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
So when a drug dealer hands a free sample of heroin to get you hooked, who’s fault is it when you get addicted. His for giving you the sample that got you hooked or yours for getting addicted?
Society tends to blame and punish the dealer, not the victim.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
One thing’s for sure: Everyone in that war is an idiot.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
One has to wonder what Trump would’ve done. With the same clowns running the Democrat Circus , you get the same old stunts.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
He would have been crying about some mean thing somebody said. He doesn’t even know where Ukrainian is.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
I am always astounded by brilliance. I should’ve thought of that.
Maybe Trump would’ve texted Putin… ‘Get the f&*k out of Ukraine or I’ll flood the world with cheap gas.’
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
It’s interesting that Russia attacked Ukraine only when Democrats held the White House. Methinks Putin knows who the weaklings are.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Christoball

… and there has been none of that war business in the US. If you’re gonna fight, do it in somebody else’s house.

honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
Ukraine has been a sham since Obama puppetized it
whirlaway
whirlaway
4 years ago
A protracted war? Of course. Just as John Mearsheimer predicted (in 2016), Ukraine is being led down a primrose path by the West/NATO and will be totally wrecked.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
The cream of the Ukrainian youth is going to be dead or physically handicapped for life by the time this ends. Not to mention the number of women and children killed/raped etc.
All while the rest of Europe looks on and ‘cheers’ from a distance while sending in more guns and ammo to get more Ukrainians killed/maimed. If Europe REALLY was worried about being invaded by Russia they absolutely would have sent soldiers. The fact they didn’t says they are happy to sacrifice as many Ukrainians as will take up arms.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
How is it Europe’s fault russia invaded their neighbor again?
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
by playing the US game of NATO imperialism….
this was going to happen, its been mentioned for 30 years by the brightest of bright in foreign policy folks…..
Pontius
Pontius
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
The west spent five years building up the largest national army in Europe situated on the border with Russia? Why would Russia feel threatened?
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Not all the cream of Ukrainian youth. Half of the 18-29 year demographic were migrants outside of Ukraine before the war started, and they are the least likely to want to fight. Serious problems with smuggling people out of the country and people dodging draft notices.
JoeJohnson
JoeJohnson
3 years ago
Reply to  Webej
Keep in mind birth rates have been very low in Europe for the past 30 years, despite a larger population than in 1940s, there are less fighting men available. Now we are all lesbians with dogs. Bye bye Europe.
Carl_R
Carl_R
3 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
Ukraine has been treated as a subordinate vassal state by Russia since the days of Catherine the Great. There is a long history here.
TLinFL
TLinFL
4 years ago
ISW?
The president and founder of the Institute for the Study of War is
Kimberly Kagan, a military historian who is married to Frederick Kagan,
who is also a military historian and does work for ISW. Frederick is a
well-known neoconservative, though not as well-known as his brother
Robert. In the 1990s, Robert Kagan, along with Bill Kristol (who is on
ISW’s board), founded the Project for a New American Century, which in
the view of some observers played an important role in convincing George
W. Bush to invade Iraq.
Robert Kagan’s wife, Victoria Nuland, is the state department official
who very publicly supported Ukraine’s 2014 Maidan Revolution—the
overthrow of pro-Russia President Viktor Yanukovych, which led Russia to
seize Crimea and give military support to secessionist rebels in the
Donbass.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  TLinFL
What can I say? “Yats is our guy.” Until he isn’t.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when
you’re always afraid
Step out of line, the man come and take you away
We
better stop Hey, what’s that sound?
Everybody look – what’s going down?
Why just the Western Front?
Bloodiest battle of WWI: Russia v Austria/Hungary – i.e. western Ukraine.
The Brusilov Offensive: June 4 – September 20, 1916 – 2,317,800 casualties.
Apparently our diplomats have forgotten.
As NATO has clearly stated, they will provide weapons and resources until every last Ukrainian is dead.
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Not forgotten but remembered.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Doug, perhaps they need to remember better.
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
I would say they remember the horrors we are seeing now because it has happened there again. Someone again started a war because they think they can win it and if they win it they will want more Lisa.
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Steven Stills.
Jojo
Jojo
4 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
The world population tripled from 1950 to now. We have plenty of bodies to throw at each other with no real effect on the world as a whole.
jiminy
jiminy
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Buffalo Springfield lives
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
4 years ago
FYI, it appears maps come from:
Hit the “i” symbol in the upper right to change back to Ukrainian (the default) from English.
The map has a widget that lets you compare/play-back history.
The site is clearly not Russian, but is probably close enough to realistic to get a sense of what has happened and is happening.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
No, deepstatemap is one of the other joints (there are a number) that tries to document the military progress. It is pro-Ukr, but not run by neo-cons with lots of money, like ISW.
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
The writing was on the wall in mid-2021, confirmed in mid-December 2021 and executed in February 2022. The only people who were surprised were those who didn’t want to believe it and they were many.
It’s interesting to see how the Russian central bank sees how the sanctions will affect the economy over the next few years. This came out in May in the bank’s official journal:
The detailed report is in Russian and can be found here:
They are very frank about the prospects and see a deindustrialization and a primitivation but hope that after a few years a “new equilibrium” will be reached. They are not counting on China to replace Europe’s exports because China doesn’t produce the high-tech products that Europe does.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
So, from mid-2021 to February 2022, what did the Biden Administration actually do? Besides jump up and down?
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
You are too focused on Biden himself. There are many other actors within government, i business and elsewhere both in the US and in Europe that saw this coming and prepared hoping it wouldn’t happen but prepared nevertheless. When Russia invaded Ukraine they knew what to do.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
So is Raytheon a buy tomorrow? Looking for a target for my next dollar cost average deployment.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
4 years ago
Given that everything that Biden has done since day one of his presidency has FAILED, I recommend doing the opposite. Make peace with Russia, a complete withdrawal with Ukraine to be a neutral state. Justification: in the coming war with China, Russia will be an important ally. Allied with China, and as an enemy, Russia poses a huge threat, complete domination of Asia, Europe, and the MIddle East.
prumbly
prumbly
4 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
You’re joking, right? China? Take a look at the US military’s track record – they couldn’t even defeat goat-herders in Afghanistan – do you really think they would stand the slightest chance against China’s huge, modern military? China is a vast, fully-industrialized country, not some small, impoverished, third-world state like the ones the US is used to fighting. Get real!
JackWebb
JackWebb
4 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
I think the last time them goat herders got defeated was by Alexander the Great.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Well they didn’t get defeated really. They kind of got quasi-absorbed and bypassed. They proved too expensive to defeat even back then. The opportunities for plunder and pillage have always been poor.
JackWebb
JackWebb
4 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Details, details. There are a few places out there that have thus far been unconquerable. Them goat herders’ land is one of ’em.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
That would be MY POINT. The only way a war with China ends ‘well’, is with a US-Russia alliance.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  prumbly
One look at a map of Afghanistan, and knowledge of the culture, was enough for Bush II not to attack directly. It was guaranteed to fail given efforts by the Soviet Union, Britain, and Alexander–a short-term occupation. And let’s not forget incursions by the Maurya Empire, Arab Muslims, and the Mongols.
Instead, the US attacked Iraq (seen as low-hanging fruit) to send a message to certain other countries. To get at Bin Laden directly, they funded and trained Afghani warlords to take on the Taliban.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I recommend not paying attention to anything Captain Ahab writes.
Jojo
Jojo
4 years ago
The world is in the position it is in vis-a-vis Russia because Western leaders did not do enough soon enough. Hopefully we learn for the future, perhaps with respect for China’s designs on Taiwan.
When Putin first started amassing his forces on Ukraine’s border, the West should have declared immediate war games on Ukraine territory and began shipping in forces and armaments. But that wasn’t done.
So then the West should have closed off Ukraine air space and guaranteed its safety. This would have protected much of the infrastructure in Ukraine that is now destroyed.
Next the West should have immediately began directing significant weapons to Ukraine so the Ukrainians could fight tot-to-toe with the Russians.
And last, we should have prevented any Black sea blockade.
Had this been done, Pootin would have tucked his tail between his legs and pulled his forces back.
.
PapaDave
PapaDave
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
But Putin said he had no intention of invading Ukraine. And many here believed him. People are stupid. Now those same people very confidently blame Biden for the invasion! Lol! I can barely stand the stupidity. Which is why I occasionally reply but will not debate these topics with morons.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave

But the Russians have always told the truth! How can this be? It must be the intelligence agencies of every major nation collaborating in a perfect conspiracy! Evidence? How can there be evidence… the conspiracy is perfect! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
4 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
How quickly they forget ‘weapons of mass destruction.’
RonJ
RonJ
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
McCain should not have meddled in Ukraine.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  RonJ

You feel like Tucker when you say that?

RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
No. I just feel like i am stating the obvious.
Jojo
Jojo
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Don’t we have spies in Russia that were giving us the correct info? That an invasion was going to happen?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
The CIA (and NSA) are too busy playing political games in the USA, and covering up their debacle of RussiaGate.
Dutoit
Dutoit
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
I think that you tremendously overestimate the real military strength of the west.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  Dutoit
I’m fairly certain enough of our nukes work to kill everyone. Beyond that is overkill.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
4 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
This is /sarc, right? If nukes are used, the survivors will wish they were dead.
whirlaway
whirlaway
4 years ago
Reply to  Dutoit
Americans tremendously overestimate their war machine and tremendously underestimate their propaganda machine.
Jojo
Jojo
4 years ago
Reply to  Dutoit
I think you consistently overestimate the military and economic strength of Russia.
Dr. Odyssey
Dr. Odyssey
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
“The winner in a prolonged war between two near-peer powers is still based on which side has the strongest industrial base. A country must either have the manufacturing capacity to build massive quantities of ammunition or have other manufacturing industries that can be rapidly converted to ammunition production. Unfortunately, the West no longer seems to have either.”
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Odyssey
You’re delusional. Russia manufacturing is poor in the best of times. Now that they can’t [easily] get computer chips and raw materials, they up the proverbial creek w/o any paddles.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
And yet they seem to have a huge supply advantage over the combined West.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Talked to any US military lately? Have they mentioned declining standards–intellectually and physically? Recruitment shortfalls? Low respect for their leaders?
Here’s a stat… 40% of today’s Marine officers would not have qualified in WW2.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
And probably 90% of Russian’s would not qualify for the USA military. So?
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Why? Are they all obese and fialing math class?
You are dlusional
ColoradoAccountant
ColoradoAccountant
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo

“America goes not
abroad in search of monsters to destroy; she is the well-wisher to the freedom
and independence of all; she is the champion and vindicator only of her own.” John Q. Adams

Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
What was the power of the US then compared to the European powers at the time? Adams was just giving good advice to a weak country that didn’t want to attract the attention of much more powerful ones.
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Jojo, don’t forget you’re Monday morning quarterbacking.
That said, consider the number of sober and knowledgeable people who, at the time, pointed out that “closed off Ukraine air space” would have been a shortcut for all-out nuclear war. And what’s changed? Are you advocating such a strategy now? If not, why not?
Jojo
Jojo
4 years ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
I don’t buy that Putin would have assured his own destruction by unleashing his nukes over Ukraine. So yes, I AM advocating a strategy as described NOW.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Only an idiot plays ‘bluff’ with a pissed-off superpower. We have Biden… I’m surprised we didn’t close down Ukraine’s airspace. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed.
effendi
effendi
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
What Black Sea blockade? Putin has repeatedly said that they will not stop commercial shipping. It’s the Ukrainians who are the problem by mining the ports and lanes and the MSM just do their usual spin and blame everything on Putin (they even blame him for Sri Lanka’s collapse and for globull warming).
The west also didn’t have enough weapons to supply Ukraine 6 months ago and they still don’t. America promised 150000 rounds recently, big whoop when that would last 3 days if they want to match what Russia fires.
Now Ukraine claims to have a million man army ready to take the south, delusional crap as if they had that many lined up why were they not deployed to stop the Russian advances of the past few weeks.
Best move for the Ukraine is for the rational part of their generals to remove the neo nazis running the place into the ground and negotiate peace, lose the 20% in the east that wants self determination and recognise that poking the bear is dumb and ban Hunter Biden, the neocons, WEF etc from ever setting foot in Ukrainian soil.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  effendi
I think they should ask Hunter for the money back.
It’s not working out like he said it would.
effendi
effendi
4 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
The only way to get back the money that Hunter got would be to scrape out his nasal cavities (yuck) or the hookers private parts (more yuck).
But seriously FJB should be impeached for lying about what he claimed he didn’t know and then stripped of every cent he has amassed due to Ukraine payoffs. Ditto anyone else involved in making Ukraine turn to poop in 2014 and after.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  effendi
I’m likin’ your comments; a tad crude, but so apropos.
Dr. Odyssey
Dr. Odyssey
3 years ago
Reply to  effendi
“America promised 150000 rounds recently, big whoop when that would last 3 days if they want to match what Russia fires.”
Presently, the US is decreasing its artillery ammunition stockpiles. In 2020, artillery ammunition purchases decreased by 36% to $425 million. In 2022, the plan is to reduceexpenditure on 155mm artillery rounds to $174 million. This is equivalent to 75,357 M795 basic ‘dumb’ rounds for regular artillery, 1,400 XM1113 rounds for the M777, and 1,046 XM1113 rounds for Extended Round Artillery Cannons. Finally, there are $75 million dedicated for Excalibur precision-guided munitions that costs $176K per round, thus totaling 426 rounds. In short, US annual artillery production would at best only last for 10 days to two weeks of combat in Ukraine. If the initial estimate of Russian shells fired is over by 50%, it would only extend the artillery supplied for three weeks.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Odyssey
Fire ’em or lose ’em.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  effendi
Russia is stealing their grain and hauling it off. What would you do in their shoes? Bend over and look back seductively?
Crenvy
Crenvy
3 years ago
Reply to  effendi
A Ukrainian friend of our family just had her husband called up. He’s going to the front. He’s 60.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Crenvy
If he makes it there he’s as good as dead.
Crenvy
Crenvy
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
All quite obvious, which leads to the conclusion that protecting Ukraine was not ever in the plan, which by now should be glaringly obvious to the sleepiest of US Americans.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Crenvy
Then what is the plan???
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
The plan is to goad Russia into an Afghanistan debacle like the US has just left behind, but against a much much better army.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
You are not a fan of reality much.
Exactly what you propose actually happened since 2014; massive influx of weapons, non-stop training of Ukrainian army and exercises with NATO , integration with American intelligence and guidance. Ukraine had the biggest and best-equipped army in Europe.
This had no deterrent value however, but was (along with the genocidal “anti-terror action” against Russians in the DonBas) exactly what forced Putin’s hand.
As for the blockade, there is none — it is Ukraine blockading & mining the ports, and disallows navigation with its MarSec 3 regime.
Too bad there are no NATO ships in the Black Sea … sitting ducks for coastal missile batteries and Mr. Zircon.
Dutoit
Dutoit
4 years ago
I believe this one
gives a very good and detailed description on the war, every day
killben
killben
4 years ago
“With NATO and Biden committing to ‘as long as it takes’ while Germany and the EU stick with counterproductive sanctions, the case for a protracted war just increased.”
Will it lead to the break-up of the EU?
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  killben
That’s already a given, war or no war.
Dutoit
Dutoit
4 years ago
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
Forgot to mention that the other day Ukraine said it needed 750 billion to recover after the war. This only a month or so after they said the total cost of the war was only 33 billion.
I can’t take either number seriously, but as a point of reference, the entire Ukrainian GDP is only 130 billion a year so if it really is 750 billion that means 6 years of 100% of their GDP. The US economy is 20 trillion so the equivalent here would be 120 trillion, more than any estimate of going green or doing anything else. In other words, Ukraine may take decades to recover if it’s anything close to 750 billion.
Jojo
Jojo
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
Russia will be made to pay the bill. Russian people are going to hate Ukranian people for a long time because those payments will severely constrict the Russian economy.
PapaDave
PapaDave
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
I wonder how the Ukrainian people feel about Russia destroying their country, and killing their women and children again. Doesn’t even seem in the same league as, “a constricted economy”.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Shotgun Jesus sez: a life of convenience and ease is guaranteed by god! Any suffering inflicted on others to maintain it is part of His Plan to punish evildoers!
Now is you us, or is you them?
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
You do realize that the people on the ground in the DonBas are Russian, and a significant proportion are glad to see Russian soldiers?
You do realize that not just the DonBas but other areas (Kharhiv, Kherson) as well have tried to secede from Ukraine in the past (2004), and voted overwhelmingly for independent status and/or joining Russia in 2014? Like 98% in Mariupol before the Azov battalion got involved, shooting people in the streets and wiping out police stations?
You do realize that 95% of the value-added economy in Ukraine is the oblasts being targeted by Russia?
whirlaway
whirlaway
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
LOL. Some people dream reallllllly biiiiig!
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Sure. And Mexico is going to pay for a fence at the southern US border.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
That can only happen if Ukraine utterly defeats Russia. You’ll notice NATO doesn’t even talk about that scenario at all because it can’t happen.
Thus Russia won’t be paying any more than Mexico paid for that wall that Trump started.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Who will make them?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
The US is the cash cow.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
Lets see what happens in October when the snows start to fly and no harvest comes in. That’s when the whole world will start to get very hungry.
Already social unrest toppled a government in Sri Lanka. It probably was the final blow that caused the ouster of Boris Johnson in the UK too. Several other European governments (ie Macron) are coming under pressure that will only increase the longer this goes on and the worse things get in Europe and around the world.
Pretty soon NATO will just be the US propping up the Ukraine.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I’ll bet 100 bucks that a billion people die of non natural causes by 2030.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
You’re not putting much value on those billion souls. $100 ?
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
I don’t think that will happen. Europe is not Sri Lanka. Not one country has pulled out and everyone knows winter is going to be tough. Johnson fell because he was too much an embarrassment and he will be replaced by another PM just as hawkish as he. Farmers striking in the Netherlands is not as sign of societal collapse just as the truckers in Canada were not a sign of revolution.
effendi
effendi
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
This winter will be tough? What about the following winter? Or the ones after that?
Holland hopes to build 2 nuke plants that will finish in a decade.
There are not enough LNG ships, there are not enough LNG export or import terminals. Any that are built means importing gas at a much higher price (shipping more expensive than pumping) and high prices and limited supply of energy for a decade will turn Europe into Greece (and Greece into Lebanon).
What happens when industry relocated to continents with cheaper power? Or your best and brightest decide to emmigrate for both job opportunities and warm apartments?
You are left with the old, the sick, the slackers and the morons.
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
Reply to  effendi
You believe that Russia is the only place that has oil and gas and that other sources of energy cannot be developed and as a consequence Europe will always have to bow to Russia’s wishes. It is only the in the last twenty years that Russia had become important in energy to Europe and that was only because short-sighted politicians and industrialists encouraged it. Europe is going back to what it did before it had misplaced its trust in Russia. Europe will use the resources they have, develop new ones at home and buy the rest on the open market. Everyone in Europe expect Russia to cut off the gas any day now and when that happens that will be the last oil and gas Russia will sell to Europe ever and good luck to selling it someplace else because we will make it very hard for them.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
The price of energy affects one’s competitiveness. Europe will be increasingly uncompetitive, and others will step into the breach.
European energy dependence goes back longer than 20 years, and they’ve exhausted most of their own sources.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  effendi
By next winter they’ll hVe figured out how to survive without Russian gas. Humans are adaptable…. Except for the stupid entitled ones.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
The truckers may not be a sign of a revolution but they are definitely signs of a growing social unrest. I grew up in Canada and lived there till I was 30. I don’t ever recall a protest like the truckers in my lifetime (and I was born in the 60s and recall the 70’s quite well). There was a 2nd protest in Ottawa over the same things (covid lockdowns) that just occurred over the July 1st weekend. Led by different people (this time workers who were laid off for refusing to vaccinate) but didn’t last as long as the trucker one so got less world wide notice. But people in Canada are noticing.
Price of gas and food will be next up on the protest list because that idiot Trudeau is ramming carbon taxes down peoples throats at the worst possible time. His government could easily be gone very soon because he has a minority and the party helping his is also under fire (the leader of that party was booed by his own Sikh people as a sell out at a recent political rally).
Doug78
Doug78
4 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
In Canada you have a democracy so if enough unrest happens then they can vote out the government. In Europe you have the same thing and they want to keep it that way which explains why they do not like what Russia is doing in Ukraine. It has become existential for them because it is.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
The EU commission in not elected. Politics are in the grip of party cartels, and very little changes by voting.
More serious measures will be needed to restore any semblance of accountability.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  Webej
The leaders of the countries in the EU were chosen by vote and they in turn choose the EU Commission. They are not elected but chosen by those who are elected. Of course there are people who do not believe in the voting at all because the result doesn’t conform to what they personally want.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
In the United States they have a democracy so if enough unrest happens they can wait for 3 1/2 years before they can do something about it.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
always seems to be the worst possible time…
ColoradoAccountant
ColoradoAccountant
4 years ago
What a waste of blood and treasure. One of the reasons I don’t vote.
Jojo
Jojo
4 years ago
Which allows those who do to have control.
RonJ
RonJ
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Voters don’t set foreign policy.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Yes the do by who they vote for. What is unclear about how this works?
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Yes. Clinton reneged on not expanding NATO in the hopes of picking up a few votes in the Mid-East from people of Polish and Central/Eastern European extraction, against all advice. He was advised that this would end with a confrontation with Russia. Which is what happened.
The perfect illustration of how US foreign policy is set by trivial electoral considerations.
whirlaway
whirlaway
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
… where they get to choose between two warmongering parties. Great!
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
If voting made any difference they wouldn’t let us do it.
Zardoz
Zardoz
4 years ago

I haven’t been very satisfied with voting, but I feel like I got to do something, and the only other things I can think of would almost certainly get me shot.

Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
4 years ago
Well Colorado, if you don’t vote I guess that means you can’t be held responsible for this mess.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
The tax payments to fund the circus matter a lot more than the vote.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
Doesn’t work that way.
JackWebb
JackWebb
4 years ago
Very understandable. I spoiled my presidential ballot in ’16 and ’20.

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