In a 4-3 Wisconsin Supreme Court ruling, Wisconsin Now Without COVID-19 Restrictions.
Conservative justices on the Wisconsin Supreme Court struck down Democratic Gov. Tony Evers’ monthslong stay-at-home order in a ruling released Wednesday.
The 4-3 decision marked the first time a state’s highest court has overturned a stay-at-home order amid the coronavirus pandemic and sided with Republican leaders who argued the governor’s administration had overstepped its legal authority.
The court rejected the legislature’s request for a six-day stay to allow the GOP lawmakers and the governor to work out new rules.
Conservative Justice Rebecca Bradley Questions Deputy Attorney General Colin Roth
“Where in the constitution did the people of Wisconsin confer authority on a single, unelected Cabinet secretary to compel almost 6 million people to stay at home and close their businesses and face imprisonment if they don’t comply, with no input from the legislature, without the consent of the people?” Bradley asked. “Isn’t it the very definition of tyranny for one person to order people for being imprisoned for going to work, among other ordinarily lawful activities?”
Free to Roam
The Independent reports Wisconsin Supreme Court Throws Out Stay-at-Home Order.
Wisconsin’s Supreme Court has struck down Governor Tony Evers’ stay-at-home order, the first statewide measure in the US to be dismissed by the courts, throwing out his quarantine effort amid a coronavirus outbreak that has infected more than 10,000 people in the state.
But local polls show that Wisconsin residents largely support the shutdown, reflecting national polls that show a majority of Americans believe quarantine efforts should’ve been in place much earlier.
A poll from Marquette University Law School showed 69 per cent of Wisconsin voters support Governor Evers’s order, though responses fell mostly along partisan lines. Less than half of Republican respondents support the measure.
The court’s ruling awards Republicans a temporary injunction to block the governor’s extension of the order that was set to expire on 20 May.
Tavern League Chimes In
The Seattle Times has still more information on the ruling.
The Tavern League of Wisconsin swiftly posted the news on its website, telling members, “You can OPEN IMMEDIATELY!”
The decision let stand language that had closed schools, however, and local governments can still impose their own health restrictions. In Dane County, home to the capital of Madison, officials quickly imposed a mandate incorporating most of the statewide order. City health officials in Milwaukee, meanwhile, said a stay-at-home order they enacted in late March remains in effect.
Chief Justice Patience Roggensack wrote for the majority that health secretary Andrea Palm’s order amounted to an emergency rule that she doesn’t have the power to create on her own, and also imposes criminal penalties beyond her powers.
No Appeal
Evers said there’s no avenue to appeal the decision. His administration plans to put together an emergency rule addressing the virus, he said, but the process is so complex that it could be at least two weeks before state health officials can start drafting it. And once it’s finished the administration will have to submit it to legislators, who could block it.“
In the meantime, we’re going to have 72 counties doing their own thing,” Evers said. “I can’t believe there’s a state in the nation with this type of chaos.”
Many Questions
- What if the Governor or legislature issued the order and not the Health Secretary?
- Curiously the decision let local authorities decide on lockdowns. Why should they be allowed to?
- What will the patchwork of local laws look like?
- OK, the bars are open. How many people will show up?
- How many people will die as a result of the ruling?
Lots of question, time will provide the answers.
Mish



If a cop were to cite me, or heck, even hit me with a stick for leaving the house without a mask – during a pandemic like this, I honestly wouldn’t feel like that was a violation of my civil rights as it is in fact a reasonable argument that I could be unnecessarily endangering my fellow citizens. But the Government telling me that I can’t leave my house or re-open my business? That is straight up BS and it will go down in History as an absurd over-reaction. There will be long-lasting political scars (in addition to all the other ones).
Some people with tiny brains will think it is an absurd over-reaction, the rest of us will realize we are trying to literally save Millions of lives. Millions….
“We use a simple SIR-like epidemic model which integrates known age-contact patterns for the United States to model the effect of age-targeted mitigation strategies for a COVID-19-like epidemic. We find that, among strategies which end with population immunity, strict age-targeted mitigation strategies have the potential to greatly reduce mortalities and ICU utilization for natural parameter choices.”
Got news for many of those commenting on this piece. Freedom isn’t free. You have to fight for it. Solzhenitsyn on how to stay free, if you are able:
“So you will not be the first to take this path, but will join those who have already taken it. This path will be easier and shorter for all of us if we take it by mutual efforts and in close rank. If there are thousands of us, they will not be able to do anything with us. If there are tens of thousands of us, then we would not even recognize our country.
If we are too frightened, then we should stop complaining that someone is suffocating us. We ourselves are doing it. Let us then bow down even more, let us wail, and our brothers the biologists will help to bring nearer the day when they are able to read that our thoughts are worthless and hopeless.
And if we get cold feet, even taking this step, then we are worthless and hopeless, and the scorn of Pushkin should be directed to us:
“Why should cattle have the gifts of freedom?
Their heritage from generation to generation is the belled yoke and the lash.”
The Wisconsin Supreme Court decision is correct. Unelected officials should not have the power to force people to stay at home or close their businesses. The consent of the people should have been obtained by votes in the legislature to create laws. There was plenty of time to do this but it was not done. A debate would have raised all the points discussed here. The legislature could have agreed, or not agreed or imposed conditions. For instance the recommended rules could have been subject to time limits, geographical limits or other conditions. Under the present circumstances if a store owner was arrested for opening his store against the rules, then exactly what crime should he be charged with in court. The rule makers should have trusted the american people (through their elected representatives) to do the right thing.
Remember that all non-essential court cases are indefinitely postponed. The right to seek justice in a court of law has also been suspended.
Just who decides which cases are essential under the dictatorial mandates?
The American people just rolled over. Oh, and special thanks to those defenders of liberty in the free press.
none of those bodies can abridge the US Constitution. Period. A better course would be to explain the situation in not dire terms and ask for voluntary compliance. Those that defy can take the risk they will come down with the virus. Governments may not violate the US Constitution. It bricks no room for pandemics. It applies always.
Authoritarians Using Coronavirus Fear to Destroy America
Written by Ron Paul
Monday May 11, 2020
….
When Patrick Henry famously said “give me liberty or give me death” in 1775, he didn’t add under his breath “unless a virus shows up.” If we wish to reclaim our freedoms we will have to fight – peacefully – for them. As Thomas Paine wrote in 1776, “These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.”
I’ve read about a half-dozen articles on the Ron Paul site and they are all excellent at pointing out the dangers of the “creeping police state” and warning the American people to be vigilant in observing and opposing further government efforts at “control”.
So far I haven’t found a single article that has proposed any ideas whatsoever of how to deal with COVID-19 in ways that are effective and avoid those pitfalls.
Well, Sweden has a working model but so many apparently don’t like it because it depends on common sense and doesn’t really FORCE people to do stuff. The USA is big on FORCE as a solution to everything. That’s why we have the BIGGEST “defense” budget in the world by far!
{Best Hick Voice} Well, if you like Sweedun so much – why don’t you just go LIVE THERE! HAW Haw haha ho hep Herp Derp {\Best Hick Voice}
Sweden’s model of “suggesting” its people use common sense would not work very well in the US … and you and some others on this board are poster children for the reasons why i.e. you said it yourself the other day “I’ve always been a rebel” or something to that effect.
The very attitude that so many Americans have i.e. “Nobody ain’t gonna tell me what to do or not do, no way! no how! Least of all da stinkin’ gubmint!” is EXACTLY the reason why using Sweden’s model of suggesting common sense would have failed miserably here.
The large majority of Swedes even trust their government … imagine that. And there are many other factors that make Sweden very different from the US.
And the jury is still out of how effective Sweden’s approach will be in the long run. It’s been very poor so far. For Sweden to be SIXTH in the world among nations of any size in terms of deaths per capita is ABOMINABLE. The next time I hear some moron say “but they’ll achieve “herd immunity” very soon!” as though “herd immunity” is an absolute given with this virus will be the 1000th time too many. Any kind of effective “herd immunity” to SARS-COV-2 is anything but a given at this time. It’s certainly a hope … but it’s NOT a given.
OTOH, I happen to agree with your point that “The USA is big on FORCE as a solution to everything. That’s why we have the BIGGEST “defense” budget in the world by far!”
What either of us think is immaterial at this point anyway. Just look at all the people giving the proverbial finger to authoritarians telling them what to do in the vid and photos of them mingling in bars after reopening!
People are mainly willing to take their chances. They do it with the flu each year. Consider that:
CDC: Fewer than half of Americans get flu vaccine
The Nation’s Health November/December 2017
The same thing will happen with any CV19 vaccine.
If you are fearful, then stay in YOUR house and don’t worry about other people. If you want an authoritarian solution, then move to some place like Singapore.
RE: “What either of us think is immaterial at this point anyway.”
Yes
RE: “Just look at all the people giving the proverbial finger to authoritarians telling them what to do …”
Should they expect the same response from health care workers if they ever come down with a bad case of CV19?
Not a single health care worker should ever have put their life on the line for people who gave no thought to the possible impacts of their irresponsible actions.
So people should pay a penalty if they don’t agree with what you or a prevailing majority believe? [roflol]
It’s not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing … give a finger to people telling you what to do to protect others’ health and those others could do the same when the people ignoring those instructions get themselves sick and threaten to sicken others.
Not a single health care worker should ever have put their life on the line for people who gave no thought to the possible impacts of their irresponsible actions.
Speaking of Sweden:
I Live in Sweden. I’m Not Panicking.
Time will tell if my country’s coronavirus plan was wise.
By Maud Cordenius
May 15, 2020, 5:00 a.m. ET
That’s how a free country works. Sorry.
It seems that the Wisconsin supreme court still has some respect for the rule of law. It seems strange to bash the central bankers across the world, but support a local tyrant with no power to create law.
Absolutely no one should have the right to knowingly put the lives of healthcare workers at risk or perhaps you believe healthcare workers getting sick and dying is just another hoax perpetrated globally by the Democrats.
This reminds me of Louis CK’s bit about the need to reintroduce lions to human society.
So many people barking about freedom but in reality your freedom ends at the tip of my nose and the virus means at least 6 feet away. If everyone would have listened from the start it would be all over now. Instead the freedumb fighters have managed to make it a two or three year crisis. good job.
Exactly how would it be over? There were hundreds if not thousands of cases at the end of January, when Herr Fauci was telling us not to worry. There are many more asymptomatic carriers than sick people, and Fauci flubbed the first month’s attempts at developing tests. It is almost like he wanted it to spread. Don’t blame me or the American people. Don’t wait for it to happen. Beg. Put your neck under a jackboot, but don’t forget your mask.
The freedumb fighters in Queens NY? I live here at the US epicenter and if the place is loaded with right wing militia types then I’ve missed them.
Large-scale population antibody tests in NY, Italy, and Spain are all showing an infection fatality rate of around 1.3%. Much lower for people under 40, much higher for people over 60. Ages 40-60 are right around 1% infection fatality rate. This is IFR, not CFR. Case fatality rate is the measure of only cases that are confirmed.
https://www.isciii.es/Noticias/Noticias/Paginas/Noticias/PrimerosDatosEstudioENECOVID19.aspx
“How many people will die as a result of the ruling?”
How many people will die because of the shut downs?
“The data shows 8,196 more deaths at home in England, Wales and Scotland compared with the five-year average for this time of year, including 6,546 non-Covid deaths,” reports The Guardian.
It’s a similar story in Italy, where there have already been 11,600 excess deaths due to seriously sick people avoiding hospitals.
Experts have also warned that there will be 1.4 million deaths from untreated TB infections due to the lockdown.”
I think they should outlaw hamburgers and fries. That will prevent deaths. A national speed limit of 25 mph, that will save lives.
Given that most chronic diseases are self inflicted and preventable, one can see plenty of fodder for the totalitarian impulse.
The virus is unfortunate. The myriad damages of the response are worse. How many per 100,000 additional are going to die or be permanently damaged financially, physically and psychologically from loss of livelihood? From the stress of the over-hyped fear mongering? The numbers are huge. Even children who are at no risk from the virus.
Come on Mish, question 1 is not a good question. If a bill is approved by both houses of the Legislature and signed by the governor, then it is a valid law, if it does not violate the state or federal Constitution. Some minor underling inventing a law with criminal penalties is invalid, period, the end.
Will Wisconsin be our Sweden? People can stay home if they want to and wear gloves and a mask, avoid restaurants, etc.
The other side of choices–words from a new doctor at Bellevue hospital in NYC
….The next Monday, as I put on my scrubs and mask for my first day of work, I was propelled by anxiety and excitement. I had worked ten years and countless hours for this moment: the first time I’d be entering the hospital as an M.D. It was pouring rain in New York, and though it’s only a five-minute walk from my apartment to Bellevue Hospital, I was drenched by the time I walked in the front entrance and toward the newly established temperature-screening point. I was surprised at how familiar the wards felt when I got off the elevator. The same cold fluorescent lights. The same smells, acrid and organic. That every face here was concealed in a mask was somehow not as unsettling as it had been in Trader Joe’s. It was the sounds that oriented me most: beeping, everywhere. The language of the hospital is beeps — the oxygen is too low, the heart rate is normal, the medicine has been given. Almost every action in a hospital has a corresponding beep.
The superficial familiarity, however, concealed profound difference. As I became acquainted with “my list” — the patients my team was assigned to care for — I learned that every one of them had COVID-19. My list was not an anomaly; nearly every patient in the hospital had the coronavirus. Whole floors once dedicated to surgical specialties, cancer, and heart failure had been turned into COVID overflow floors. The idea of specialists, at least temporarily, no longer existed; nearly every provider in the hospital cared for COVID patients.
The providers themselves were different too. Many were traveling nurses, NPs, and PAs — reinforcements flown in from across the country. Some were meant to serve at the Javits Center and other “relief valve” sites, but, at least by their own reports, so few patients were making it there that their assignments had been changed. An NP from Memphis told me in a southern twang: “Every year, I go on a service trip to a different place. Last year, I went to Nicaragua. Year before that, Ghana. This year, I’m here helping y’all.” The implied comparison unsettled me.
Before I started, I had become increasingly obsessed with numbers. Case fatality rates and infectivity scores and flattening curves. If I could just grasp the facts and figures, wouldn’t I get some semblance of control? But on my first day, as I rounded with my team on critical patient after critical patient, the statistical lens through which I’d seen COVID dissolved. The numbers were now real human beings whose health I was responsible for. That first day, I counted at least 20 “RRTs,” or rapid responses, announced over the hospital PA system. Each time the PA system beeped overhead, I prayed it was not my patient who needed to be ventilated and brought to the ICU. Wouldn’t it represent some personal failure if it was?
My attending and older residents assured me there was very little we could do to halt the natural progression of COVID-19. Patients either got better or worse; our efforts made almost no difference. But my education had cemented a clear conviction: medical interventions make sick patients better. I stubbornly clung to the notion that a patient improving was a result of our successes, and a patient deteriorating the result of our failures. What was the point of all this schooling if my role was merely to watch and wait?
Lying in bed after my first day, I felt haggard, burdened by the enormity of responsibility and how little I could actually do. As I was about to fall asleep, a beep came over my cell phone — the resident Slack channel announcing another rapid response, this time on a 33-year-old critical patient I was caring for. I felt queasy. Powerless in my bed at home, I already couldn’t escape the hospital.
The next day, a patient unexpectedly died. I was eating lunch when a “code” — indicating the patient was without a pulse — was called to her room. I thought it was a mistake as I ran up the stairs. She had been the patient I was least worried about; just hours earlier, we had discussed the possibility of her going home soon. Now I was outside her room, frantic as I peered in through the double glass doors and saw an older physician I did not recognize doing chest compressions. I had been told that the recent graduates would not be part of codes, since there is a high risk of viral transmission during these “aerosolizing” events. But how could I not enter? I put on my PPE and stood there frozen, staring into the room, literally and figuratively at the precipice between student and doctor. The patient was pronounced dead before I could make up my mind to enter.
The hospital has been a lonely place for patient and provider alike. With patients wearing oxygen masks and providers covered head-to-toe in PPE, the ability to have real conversations has been difficult. Most of the patients on my team spend the majority of their days completely alone, without any form of distraction. But amid the isolation, the hospital has still had moments of genuine human connection and joy. One of my patients was desperate to meet her newborn grandson, so I found a donated iPad and held it for her as she FaceTimed with her daughter and the baby. She smiled at me through tears when the call ended. “That beautiful boy, he has a whole big life to lead,” she said. “I just pray to live another day.”
Toward the end of my first week, as I prepared to leave after another long day, the hospital intercom beeped. I feared it was another RRT. Instead, Journey’s “Don’t Stop Believin’” began to play over the Bellevue PA system. The hospital seemed to pause. Whispers had circulated that the song would be played hospitalwide each time a patient was extubated or discharged from the ICU; I had yet to hear it. Relief flashed across everyone’s eyes — a big, collective exhale. Some nurses began to clap to the rhythm. I was surprised to find myself laughing.
These moments of levity, however, have been few. Five of the first ten patients I cared for passed away. For a new physician — for anyone, really — this amount of death is disturbing. I remember the names and faces of each of them; their deaths will no doubt stay with me. In my two years of clinical experience as a medical student, I had lost four patients total. I was shocked the first time family members looked to me for consolation and wisdom as their loved one neared death. Certainly, they thought, as I felt, that I was just a random guy who had taken a couple of science classes and was given a stethoscope and a white coat.
Over the course of medical school, my impostor syndrome diminished. I came to appreciate my role in those critical moments before and after death helping a family come to terms with the inevitable — to begin to grieve and, ultimately, heal. But COVID has uniquely undermined this critical aspect of patient and family care. Given the sheer volume of patients and the acuity of each case, I’ve had less time and emotional bandwidth to process my patients’ deaths. One afternoon, I received a call from a patient’s daughter, who was sobbing as she told me that her mom had passed away and she was trying to locate her belongings. I was ashamed that I didn’t initially recognize the woman, or which patient she was talking about. Finally, I realized that it was the new grandmother, the one I’d found the iPad for. She had passed away, alone, after a week of being on a ventilator in the ICU. Before I could internalize this, my pager beeped with another urgent task for me to attend to.
The NYU residency program and my mentor physicians have done their best to make space for processing what we’re going through. There are regular debriefing and group-therapy sessions that help, but none of that can change what we’re witnessing daily. The first years of residency are known as particularly formative in a doctor’s career since our medical habits and “muscle-memory” have not yet been cemented. This experience will inevitably shape the kind of doctor I become.
Even over this first month of being an M.D., I have noticed a new hypervigilance take hold of me. My first night shift in the hospital, I was assigned a patient whom the primary day team described as “stably sick.” When I went to introduce myself, I found him delirious in the midst of pulling off his oxygen mask. I watched in horror as his oxygen saturations dipped from 95 to 48 in a matter of seconds — anything less than 90 is too low, and I had never seen a conscious person lower than 70. I ran out of the room to call an RRT. Even as the patient stabilized, I could not relax. Each hour for the rest of the night, I found myself back at his door, peering in through the acrylic window to check his oxygen saturation.
This hyperalertness has lasted. In medical school, I was taught that a patient’s medical trajectory is typically relatively easy to track. Though occasionally physicians are surprised by their patients’ outcomes, most of the time they follow a predictable course. My experience with COVID patients has shattered that belief. So instead, I find myself constantly on high alert. That hypervigilance is a cardinal symptom of PTSD is not lost on me….
What was the point of that? just curious
I was glad to read it. While we sit and look at numbers, it’s easy to forget that for each number there is a human story.
It’s the other side of “I gotta be me” in a pandemic.
It’s about picking up the pieces that others have broken.
do the sob stories only matter in a pandemic? what pieces that others broke are we talking about exactly?
“Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death.”
You know, you really should re-examine the Isaiah2:17 handle…
“The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day”
There is deep irony in there for you.
Sob stories?
No, not a sob story, but a very real side of the pandemic. There are the ill. There are the dying. There are the people taking care of the ill and the dying.
Should we mourn a person or a business more?
Which do you have the power to rebuild?
“But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?”
Ad hominem (Latin for ‘to the person’), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a term that is applied to several different types of arguments, most of which are fallacious. Typically it refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
It’s tough to believe, but a long time ago ( 3-5 months ), there were the ill, there were the dying, there were the people taking care of the ill and the dying. That will never change, covid19 or not.
Lets mourn those that have sadly died and at the same time not have to talk about rebuilding a business by allowing them to continue to operate.
Interesting that you picked that verse, how is someone supposed to help others when they are told to stay home and avoid everyone?
Tugging at people’s heartstrings is a time honored technique for manipulating them to come to your side of the belief aisle.
I didn’t see anything in that story that picked a “side”. It wasn’t pro-Trump or anti-Trump. It wasn’t pro-lockdown, or anti-lockdown. It was just a reminder that real people are working on the front lines, and real people are dying, and real people are recovering, too, and that everyone on the front lines needs hope, and a feeling that they are accomplishing something. In this story we have a doctor fighting feelings of frustration, and finding his triumphs where he can.
Amazing how quick civil libertarians lose faith in common sense that people are able to do what is best for themselves and family. Sweden isn’t a good example because it stayed open, its a good example because it voluntarily closed. People will avoid crowds either way.
When the leader of a country turns simple acts of public hygiene into political division there is truly no hope.
If you back up and look, the costs of the lock-down are now officially wasted.
The time and cost could have been offset by the integration of good public hygiene into everyday life–thereby continuing the slowdown in the spread and allow a measured re-opening.
The time of the lock-down could have been poured into increasing supplies of necessary items and getting real testing and tracing set up, but it wasn’t.
The time of the lock-down could have been centered around working out a coordinated set of standards for re-opening and supporting businesses during re-opening, but it wasn’t.
Wasted, wasted, wasted.
“When the leader of a country turns simple acts of public hygiene into political division there is truly no hope.”
When Trump restricted travel from China, Democrats called him xenophobic. Extremely divisive for Democrats to do that. Open borders allowed New York City to become the epicenter in the U.S.
Ahahahaha-using the same old same old.
Old cheese just smells worse.
Your incomprehension of the fact that Trump allowed 40,000 people a day in from China after his ‘restrictions” shows you know very few facts.
Taking issue with the single statement and responding with a debatable point from before anyone could have known or cared in the same way that they do now just makes your argument look weak.
If you have examples of ways the time during the lockdown was spent in a valuable way, that would go a long way to bolstering your argument.
Perhaps scientists will be able to concoct a vaccine from the mold scraped off of the cheese-heads partying last night in bars.
The world needs to pay attention to Wuhan, since China is testing every resident for the virus due to reports of another outbreak. If cases are spiking there again, it likely means that the same people can be reinfected multiple times. If that’s true it could throw the whole concept of herd immunity in jeopardy, or at least make it far more difficult to achieve than previously thought.
In case anybody has been asleep these last few months, remember to keep an eye on what China does, not what they say!
no other corina virus has exhibited this behavior. Antibodies in victims indicates there is an immune response. China aggressively locked down Wuhan. Who is to say there are not still a large number of uninfected inhabitants? Reinfection is huge leap.
Wuhan was the most infected place on earth early on but due to dubious Chinese data we don’t know what their numbers were/are. I’ll be very interested to see if the CCP keeps freaking out about this, indicating bad news.
I wouldn’t put much stock in the behavior of other coronaviruses, since this one appears likely to have been engineered in a lab. Antibodies don’t guarantee immunity depending on their numbers, which is what makes this mass-test in Wuhan such a big deal.
How exaclty are you planning on “keeping on eye on china”?
Not sure how “remember to keep an eye on what China does, not what they say” is confusing you. We know when they do big initiatives like the mass Wuhan test or last week’s Harbin lockdown. They can lie about their data but they can’t keep these events involving 10M+ people under wraps.
NEVER believe or trust China.
I say “Go for it!” Open up. Hold rallies! Have No-Mask Covid Parties. Lick your neighbors. Lick your grandparents! Do all you can to make sure the virus spreads to at least 70% of the population in order to create herd immunity!
I gotta say that I predicted this. Same bunch of ignorant morons who say vaccines are useless because no one catches smallpox anymore so that proves that vaccines are not needed. Now they are saying that putting restrictions in place was unnecessary because there were few cases in areas where restrictions were put in place.
Seriously. Go play in traffic. I have not heard of any mass deaths from adults going out and playing on the highway. It’s obviously perfectly safe. And try eating plutonium. Never heard of mass deaths from people eating plutonium so that proves it’s safe.
MAGA
“I say “Go for it!” Open up. Hold rallies! Have No-Mask Covid Parties. Lick your neighbors. Lick your grandparents! Do all you can to make sure the virus spreads to at least 70% of the population in order to create herd immunity!”
No one is saying to lick anyone’s grand parents. Herd immunity is science. It is what nature has provided all along.
As for vaccines, at best a flu vaccine is 60% effective. In the 2014-15 season it was only 19% effective. CV-19 has mutated so what are you going to do if a vaccine isn’t all that effective against it?
RE: “CV-19 has mutated so what are you going to do if a vaccine isn’t all that effective against it?”
Adjust to the reality in a sensible manner rather than wishing and hoping it wasn’t so and ranting that we have to “return to normal!”
It’s a real shame that this reality had to crash the idiotic, irresponsible debt-fueled binge-spending of the past several decades that too many foolish people came to regard as “normal” .. but it has …
Obviously, YOUR idea of what is “sensible” doesn’t match what others think. Welcome to reality.
SARS-COV2 is mutating slower than the regular flu, so hopefully the vaccine, by the time it is developed will still be effective against it. If the virus has mutated enough, they may have to update it, however, modifying a vaccine that is proven to be safe and effective is a lot easier and faster than making a new one from scratch. They modify the flu vaccine every year to adjust it for flu virus modifications, and the combination of modifying it and manufacturing the vaccine takes only about 4-6 months.
HOPE isn’t a strategy!
The strategy, in case you missed it, was develop a vaccine for the current virus. If the virus hasn’t mutated enough to be a problem, manufacture it. If it has modified enough to make it ineffective, which is unlikely, update the virus. We hope for the former as it would speed the deployment of the virus by a month or two.
It’s amazing to me how people are led around by the nose idea-wise in this thing. Lest you have all forgotten: the world’s #1 ranked epidemiologist (that Dr. in France) has had way over 90% success using HCQ cocktail. It’s also a proven effective prophylactic. The only reason this pandemic has legs and millions of doses of HCQ are sitting in storage in the US is politics. If it were widely used, the pandemic would stop rapidly.
That it hasn’t been stopped is deliberate on some level, ergo this is a political, not medical, event.
I find it extraordinary how so many seemingly intelligent people are suckered into the whole thing and keep forgetting that the disease already has been, and can again be, cured, and moreover getting infected can also be easily prevented.
And as usual , you aren’t paying attention. Only 50% of the population in the USA gets flu shots. Why do you think that a brand new, hardly tested CV19 vaccine is going to be any higher?
Are you proposing that people be rounded up and have the vaccine applied “for their own good”?
So let me understand: Wisconsin has less than 500 Covid deaths, has flattened the curve, has lots of hospital beds available. This isn’t New York or New Jersey. Let them open. Our great State of Michigan’s legislature will be the next to overturn our control freak Governors ridiculous rules so we actually have an economy when this is over. As a Wolverine, I hate to say it but our nemesis Ohio is leading the way, and showing us what Freedom looks like. And check out how many dead in Ohio, less than 2,000 in a state of 11M
Google “wisconsin covid 19 chart” a moving average would not be flat.
First derivative is 0 or negative, hence the curve is flat or declining. So yes, curve is flattened
How many more will die? A statistically small number.
It’s not just the deaths. The illness itself can be very nasty and we are only just beginning to learn about the long term after affects. First the after affects of being hospitalised by it and gradually we’ll gain more knowledge about the after affects of milder symptoms.
AGAIN – most people who contact CV19 recover w/o further problems.
Individuals who don’t want to risk catching the virus should cocoon themselves as much as possible. And leave other people alone.
Individuals who might have the virus should cocoon themselves as much as possible. And leave other people alone.
How much of this is down to alienation between the have’s and have not’s; between the income and tax generating and the tax spending sectors of society? The disenfranchised and in debt needing to get to work …
So many people concerned about a few more people dying form this latest malady. I still haven’t been able to get an answer why no one was concerned with the 61k that died of the flu in 2017 year or the 3 million that die every year in the USA form a variety of causes. What is suddenly so special about CV19 deaths compared to deaths from other things?
Suggest y’all read this article!
Bubble-Wrapped Americans: How the U.S. Became Obsessed with Physical and Emotional Safety
Why is China insistent on testing all 11M Wuhan residents if this virus is just the flu? Why are they so worried? Or is the whole world “bubble-wrapped” (sans the mighty Swedes) in your opinion?
No one knows why the Chinese Communist leaders do crap. Now that everyone is mingling in WI, we will see exactly how contagious and dangerous CV19 is to regular folks who don’t have other comorbidities. I believe that nothing much will happen.
But of course, people like yourself will then say but, but, but everyone is asymptomatic and MIGHT be giving the virus to others. But you can’t prove a negative, can you?
Well, obviously there are asymptomatic spreaders out there, and yes, they will spread the virus. However, it is summer, and because of heat and humidity, they won’t be able to spread it very efficiently (and if they wear masks, won’t be able to spread it at all). What I expect is for Wisconsin to keep showing slightly more case growth for now than areas that are more closed, but nothing extreme. Lots of people will pat themselves on the back and say “see, nothing happened”, but really, it will still be too early to know.
The results of policies are really only possible to judge in retrospect. The real test for Wisconsin, and for everyone in the Northern Hemisphere, will come next fall and winter. By next March we will look out and may find 150k deaths, or we may find 1.5m deaths. It’s useless to argue over which of those will happen, because the virus will do what it will do, and what we let it do. Only in retrospect will we find out exactly what that will be. At that point we will all be able to look back and agree that “states that were more open did better” or “states that were more restrictive did better”. Or, maybe we’ll all just find new reasons to disagree. 😉
Why is it “obvious”? Because someone told you that it is so? How do you know that isn’t simply more scare mongering to try and keep everyone in line?
And honestly, if a million die and the majority happen to be old, decrepit, suffering from multiple other heath issues and barely hanging on to life as they take 3 different drugs daily, then maybe that is just Nature telling them their time is up.
>No one knows why the Chinese Communist leaders do crap.
That’s a lazy take, to throw your hands up and plead ignorance even when the explanation is easy to figure out.
China is testing every Wuhan resident (sending testers out to 11M people, a massive undertaking) because they’re obviously worried. Now the question is to figure out what has them frightened enough to do this.
No one has lived through anything that killed 80,000 Americans in 6 weeks. Flu talk is as sure an idiot flag as those red hats.
That article is a good read — step back and see the victimhood-movement context here.
“Now the question is to figure out”. As I said “no one knows”!
How many people will die because of the ruling?
Hmm? Hard to say. If you think a politician cares more about you and your family than you do, then I’d say many. On the other hand, if you believe people care more about their families and themselves than do politicians (which I’m inclined to believe) then I’d say very few.
You can’t possibly know that “very few” will die. What are you going to do, prevent your family from breathing for the rest of the year?
The whole reason for the debate is that we don’t know what will happen. To pretend otherwise makes you look like a phony keyboard warrior.
I’ve never been called a phoney keyboard warrior before. I can’t decide if I like that title or if I’m hurt by it.
But, that aside: the question is how many will die because the stay at home order was struck down? I’m suggesting it doesn’t matter all that much. People generally act in their self interest.
That’s the point, we don’t know these answers. I’d appreciate it if you stopped pretending that you do.
Are you serious or are you just trying to be funny?
Boy am I glad I don’t live in Wisconsin.
I need to go back to Wisconsin. The court’s decision does not prevent you from hunkering down in your basement, Montana.
I am glad you don’t live in Wisconsin too. And stay away from my homestate Michigan, we don’t want to be like NY, and actually want to work, have freedom and an economy
One can still be wise, even in Wisconsin. I don’t think that the Supreme Court outlawed wearing masks, gloves, and avoiding crowds.
I’m sure the feeling is mutual.
The typical leftist meme is that people are too dumb to take care of themselves. This is prevalent in the thinking behind the Nanny State and in many of the comments above. Thus, we must have government thuggery! So much for freedom and personal responsibility.
Democrats like Big Government telling everyone what they have to do. Repubs, not so much. Libertarians, not at all.
The right also thinks that people are too dumb to take care of themselves, hence the need for HUGE corporations. True conservatives reject anything big not just governments, because they understand that when something becomes too big, then it gets to dictate others …. just like the government.
Both sides are super dumb. They should go to war and destroy one another and leave the rest of us alone.
People ARE that dumb. This ruling is a win for dumb people everywhere, and we will see in the fall whether the dumb people were correct. Just because they’re dumb don’t mean they’re wrong. Usually does, but sometimes not.
I assume you’re speaking for yourself?
You’re clearly too dumb to follow the conversation. Why don’t you go play a nice game of hide and seek with yourself?
I’m gonna report you to the hall monitor. “Hall monitor, I’d like to report that BrainDamagedBiden is not living in fear”. You’re in trouble now!
Libtards are the biggest gun lovers out there: their nirvana is to have government guns in the backs of all the “dumb” people.
If you look at the data, the countries where the virus contagion and death rate was lowest were the countries who strictly complied with self quarantine and use of PPE. Countries like Japan, Korea, and New Zealand were able to deal with this virus effectively and are now far ahead of the rest of the world in their recoveries. There are hundreds of theories going around but what needs to be concentrated on are what methods are actually working…
“Where the virus contagion and death rate IS the lowest. “
I fixed it for you. You put it in pasted tense like it’s over. It’s a rapidly evolving situation.
Jdog, I have to say you are one of the most clear headed posters here on this subject. I appreciate it.
Apropos to your comment, many cities in the US with stricter policies during Spanish Flu had both lower mortality and higher manufacturing growth, according to The Economist.
A rough calculation yielded that likely about 50% of the US population is either over 60, has some co-morbidity factor, or lives with someone in these categories. The “have the old folks hunker down” argument falls into the “For every problem there is a solution that is simple, neat- and wrong” category.
Quoting Mencken to justify heavy handed state tactic? How ironic!
Those people are at higher risk but still not very high.
This issue is very complex. Governments have the duty to protect the public health, and they also have the duty to protect the rights of the Citizens.
There are laws against public endangerment, but people do have buy food, go to the bank, go to the doctor, and make a living.
Ideally, if government was competent, which is most certainly is not, they would have guidelines in place which had been developed and funded for decades ahead to deal with catastrophic catastrophe.
Unfortunately there are no perfect solutions to this problem. Overzealous psychopaths in government positions will use this crisis as an excuse to illegally abuse Citizens rights, and irresponsible people will infect and kill others because they are self centered and ignorant.
Jdog, I agree with you but might say it differently about people being irresponsible and killing others, lets just say infecting others. The idea of the lockdown was to preserve medical capacity so that those infected get the best treatment and we have best outcomes. Lockdowns change the date they don’t change the eventual outcome for the population. Only a vaccine or breakthrough treatment are going to change the total number fatalities given adequate treatment capacity. The states are generally nowhere near capacity, though there was a real possibility last month in NY. It seems that many people have come to believe that if we “lockdown” this will just go away. Wishful thinking, but hey viruses have mutated themselves away before.
In the last two weeks I think we have seen a treatment breakthrough, and I expect to see a substantial increase in recovery rates. The new treatment is called “MATH+”, but does not involve putting you in math class. It is Methyl Prednisone, High-dose Vitamin C by IV, and Heparin, with other things as the doctor deems appropriate.
Jdog, I followed you most of the way. But you lost me at the end. Are these self centered people actually going around sneezing on people? Now there should definitely be a law against that!
It would help if you would bother to learn about it enough to know about asymptomatic spread.
The decision may be correct but is undortunate: the USA needs to act together Federally and at State Level.
As Mish posted earlier form the John Hopkins University advice, this herd immunity option cannot work until a decent treatment is found. It will take over a year and more likely 18 months.
The USA needs to act like South Korea and Australia. You can see that first they controlled the virus, then they set up testing to detect outbreaks and then they opened up the businesses.
No one wants to risk their life so you can open up as much as you like but the customers won’t come till you have it under control.
why can’t herd immunity work?
Read mish’s post earlier.
Essentially it can work but it takes a lot of time and a lot of death. All bad in an economic sense.
The track and trace boat has sailed. We are marching full speed to herd immunity.
South Korea is losing control at this monument. Australia is an island that is cut off from the world. At this moment they have it under control but just like South Korea they can only go so far. As soon as they open up its back. Then wack a mole starts again.
Rinse and repeat. The outcome is the same. Economic collapse and virus spread.
Australia controlled the virus by shutting the international borders in a timely fashion. Since then only Australian citizens and residents are allowed back in. Then those returning travellers must spend 2 weeks in isolation.
More than 90% of cases have been bought in by travellers or those travellers having infected others locally.
Community infection transmission is being carefully controlled. Very few unknown contractions.
Latest news is international travel or arrivals will not be on the cards until at least 2023.
Of course that policy will not leave Australians with any herd immunity.
It’s been already proposed that there may never actually be an effective vaccine. So. International isolation could just be a ticking time bomb – it’ll arrive sooner or later.
Most of Australia is in a type of lockdown. It’s already wreaked economic havoc.
Australia is not an island.
A vaccine will take a year to 18 months, but treatment options are improving already. They have learned not to use ventilators, and that antivirals are only effective if given during the replication phase, when the patient is asymptiomatic or has mild symptoms, but that once hospitalized, antivirals are a waste of time, and they go straight to a combination of anti-inflammatories, antioxidants, and anti-coagulants. Results have been substantially better, so we should see a substantial drop in the death rate.
While the lower death rate is good, it doesn’t address the fact that about 1/3 of recovered patients have longer lasting lung damage, and possibly to the lining of the blood vessels as well. It will be a few years, probably, before we know if that damage is permanent, or just very slow to heal. The after effects of the year of Covid19 will be with us for years to come.
You are exactly correct whey you say that you can open as much as you like, but that doesn’t mean the customers will come. If it is true that 69% of people favor the stay at home order, and they continue to stay at home, that going to mean that stores that open will not see as many customers as usual.
what’s wrong with free individuals making their own decisions about whether they want to risk catching the virus or not?
that’s not answer. please provide an answer rather than an insult.
Insults are what you get if you propose liberty to some people.
I guess I’m an imbecile and also have no heart at all. If you’re above age 65 stay in your house for the next 16 months while the rest of us go out and work and support the social security system… and the American way of life.
If you want absolute freedom, it is only available by living by yourself in the wilderness. At the point where you begin to share resources with other humans you must begin to give up some of your personal rights to prevent imposing on the rights of others. Everybody’s rights end where they interfere with the rights of another.
The more density in a given place, the more freedom must be sacrificed. Cities are not places that are conducive to freedom. People must share certain resources like supermarkets, and have a right to a certain degree of safety when doing so.
Your point is nonsense. Do you know that Ayn Rand lived in New York City? Do you know who Ayn Rand is?
Ayn Rand? I think her real contribution was brainwashing Alan Greenspan. Thanks to her, Alan Greenspan completely distorted capitalism. We have her to thank for the Greenspan put i.e. the government backstopping every bad decision in the corporate world. After all in Atlas Shrugged, the main lady character is pretty much willing to b*** every living industrialist just like Greenspan.
Greenspan ended up acting as an economic dictator. One doesn’t get that from Atlas.
Exactly, George Bush claims to be a Born Again Christian. There was no invasions of the Middle East in the Bible. Doh!
Seriously? You didn’t know that Greenspan used to hang out with Rand? At one time she even convinced him that he didn’t exist (I am not joking). You don’t need to read Rand if you hang out with her A LOT. He’s no doubt her most famous follower. So yeah, thanks to Rand, we are in this predicament.
Yes I knew about Greenspan being part of Rand’s “collective” circle. At the time he wrote about a gold standard:
He completely flipped later, this is well-known. It’s just silly to claim that Bubbles Greenspan was in any way following the philosophical lessons of Rand. She was for pure laissez-faire capitalsim (total separation of government and the economy) and gold as money, and she was a fan of Mises. Whereas Greenspan left all of that “idealism” behind and was comfortable becoming economic dictator.
No such thing as he flipped, and even if he did, he did so with the blessing of his “mentor”. Here’s what she said upon Greenspan’s appointment to the Federal Reserve.
“Alan is my disciple,” she declared. “He’s my man in Washington.”
That pretty much sums up Rand. She is like pretty much like every other snake oil salesman out there i.e. My statist is better than your anti statist. It’s all me, me, me. Rand was a natural American.
“what’s wrong with free individuals making their own decisions about whether they want to risk catching the virus or not?”
Nothing. Just as there’s noting wrong with free individuals dressing up in bomb belts and having a, literal, blast.
It does become wrong when they get close enough to others with their blasting, and virus spreading, to put those others at risk, though. And “if you don’t want to be blown up on the street, or blasted by a bioweapon, go shelter in your bunker” doesn’t somehow make blasting nor infecting people in public a-ok.
“It does become wrong when they get close enough to others with their blasting, and virus spreading, to put those others at risk, though.”
So should it be illegal to go to the store with a cold?
Contrast with driving. Every time one drives, it is putting others at risk. So should driving be illegal?
Should no one be able to carry a gun?
Maybe kids shouldn’t be able to play baseball — no more broken windows!
Need a principle here — and “outlaw every action that presents some risk to others” is not the right principle.
I would love to see someone else take a stab at the right political philosophy principle. Have not seen anyone on here do it, including Mish.
in many states if you knowingly spread the AIDS virus without disclosure you can be charged with murder or a the lest imprisoned At this moment you can be sick with covid19 and knowingly spread it unimpeded.
But not in Kalifornia! Knowingly spreading AIDS is lawful there.
My mom is in a nursing home. She needs daily care. Does that answer your question.
Individual choices that can potentially kill others are not allowed. You don’t get to freely drive 120 mph down the freeway do you? When your individual choice impacts others lives it can be restricted.
I do not know your demographic, but imagine if this mutates into a virus that has a 25% chance of killing you. Would you be cool with me going and getting it and spreading it to you and you dying because of my actions?
Ideally, nursing home caregivers should be cocooned from others too, or replaced.
It might be ideal, but of course there is no mechanism to do such a thing, therefore it isn’t a thing. Nursing homes have been inundated due to asymptomatic carriers and some are advocating herd immunity, which will lead to more asymptomatic carriers…..Let the carnage continue, I will be staying at home as much as possible, and wearing a mask at work.
Michael what you said makes perfect sense. It’s what people are doing anyways. But politician can resist the opportunity to boss people around.
Agree, individuals should be free to use their own judgment. And THE proper purpose of government is to make sure that they are free to do so.
I would argue that there are emergencies during which a proper government should dictate temporary rules: when it is the only known way to preserve a wider context of liberty. For example, if a pandemic is such that it is going to crush the health system for everybody, then some edicts may be objectively necessary for a rights-preserving government — because you aren’t “free” if irresponsible fools shut down all the hospitals. Basically, individuals do not have the right to wipe out health care for everybody else.
Notice that protecting the hospitals was the original reason given for stay-at-home orders. Some locales in the US may have met this standard, especially when we didn’t really know how dangerous and infectious the virus is. But most locales do not, now, so there should not be stay-at-home orders in most areas.
And don’t mind Realass, I’m sure he doesn’t talk that way to his grandkids.
You might need all those customers you just told to stay home if you want to stay in business.
States that opened have insufficient customers to stay open because people choose starting home.
But you’re still a covidiot because you’re arguing on stupid logic that you can do whatever and others can lose their livelihoods & lives and it’s not your fault just because your contagious.
Precedent? Typhoid Mary tried the same thing, they put the on an island to live because she was looking others and knew it.
You’re freedom doesn’t allow you to harm others.
“Other people” vs “oneself” has always been some sort of problem. The virus amplifies those differences. Some want other people to act a certain way that is better for oneself, others want to act in the way they consider better for themselves.
Who is to say?
If certain people in public pose a danger to public, they get removed by the public, by individuals. You have innocent people, friends and neighbours, hijacked by an invisible assassin, that will use them to kill others, and you are counted as just another to this assassin.
What do you do to protect the other, which here would also include you ?
Do you just protect yourself and therefore others, and hope others do the same, because double protection is better than single protection, or do you tell them they have to ?
Who is to say ?
Allow me to rephrase your question: “What’s wrong with free individuals making their own decisions about whether they want to infect others with the virus or not?”
Because you are endangering the lives of other people and health care workers.
Go ahead but first sign a waiver declining COVID-19 health care treatment for you and your entire family including grandparents.
Well, let’s force everything open and see what happens. We’ll find out how badly China has been fudging their numbers depending on our fate.
I just wish these same people had been able to locate their backbones during the whole post 9/11 circus, especially the Patriot Act, and during TARP. I guess most of America can’t think theoretically, something has to be right in their faces for them to notice. You can oppress them from afar to your heart’s content and debase their money until the end of time, but prevent them from going to the hair salon or cancel sportsball games and they go ape.
How about suggestions for protecting you and yours and no forcing anybody to do anything. But otherwise I agree Patriot Act, War on Terror, TARP, QE, … suck.
Bread and circuses…
MAGA and pack restaurants and churches.
Cull the herd.
#TrumpVirus
#TrumpKills
Dave Barnes you should be heading up the FBI. Your blatant disregard for the humanity of political opponents makes you a natural as we marching towards our dystopian future.
Well, to be fair Trump is the #1 cheerleader of opening things back up. He constantly pushes it and incited it with his “liberate” tweets.
#TrumpSuicideCult
The Butcher of Mar a Lago approves of big crowds
Everyone who decides to eat in Wisconsin restaurants or drinks in a bar etc. should have to sign a waiver declining medical treatment for COVID -19. It is simply unfair to put the lives of health care workers at risk because they are unwilling to adhere to the guidelines recommended by our best scientists and medical advisors.
It’s the setup for the perfect storm. Next, they will say that requiring people to wear a mask is also unconstitutional. This country is going to hell.
you should move to china if you like repression so much. america is the land of the free and the home of the brave.
What a load of BS. What’s next? Wearing seatbelts is also a sign of repression? Remember, that’s also NOT in the constitution. Why don’t you just move to the desert where you can do whatever you like?
From outside looking in I am afraid America does not seem to be either the land of the free or the home of the brave, just a country at war with itself full of hatred. I think the train carrying the free and brave left some time ago.
Seems you are presenting America as the land of the selfishly irresponsible and the home of the innately stupid.
Can’t argue …
I agree Michael. Let ’em move to China. Listening to the responses sends a chill up one’s spine. So you have to move to the desert to live free? Got news for you people, the Constitution wasn’t written for people living in a desert, but for regular people walking the streets.
Let the people eat cake and see what happens. When they cant get a ventilator or ICU bed then tell them they can take it up with the court that ruled the lockdown was illegal.
Ventilators won’t be a problem. They learned that most of the time, those make it worse, so they avoid using them unless they have no choice.