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Without Subsidies, How Many People Will Buy an EV?

Think Twice About Electric Vehicles

The Wall Street Journal reports Germans Think Twice About Electric Vehicles

Sales of fully electric vehicles (EVs) fell 13.2% in January compared to January 2022, Germany’s Motor Transport Authority reports. Sales of hybrids declined 6.2%. This compares to an increase of 3.5% in the number of new gasoline-powered cars sold, and a modest decline of 1.2% for diesel.

The main explanation is the end of Berlin’s subsidies for EVs and hybrids at the new year. Until December the subsidy had offered up to €9,000 split between consumer and producer for EVs with a net list price below €40,000. Hybrids in that price range received €6,750. Berlin has ditched the subsidy for hybrids entirely, and cut the payout to €4,500 for EVs below €40,000. 

This year will thus be a market test for electric vehicle demand in the Vatican of climate-change belief. Politicians in the West have used subsidies and mandates to drive EV sales, no matter that they aren’t as green as their advertising. The cars are only as carbon-friendly to operate as the power grids they refuel from, and Berlin’s refusal to embrace nuclear power means Germany is burning more coal to cover for the end of natural-gas imports from Russia. Then there’s the environmental cost of mining for all that cobalt, copper and lithium for EVs and their batteries.

If consumers want to buy EVs, go for it. But what does it say about their appeal if people need subsidies to buy them?

Can the Power Grid Handle a Wave of New Electric Vehicles?

Also consider the question Can the Power Grid Handle a Wave of New Electric Vehicles?

Experts believe EVs will make up a third or even half of all light vehicles sold annually in the U.S. by 2030, up from about 7% in 2022.

If those predictions are correct, that leaves a big question: Will the power grid be capable of charging the batteries in those tens of millions of vehicles?

Some grid operators already are struggling to keep up with demand in certain areas and at certain times—California power authorities, for example, asked residents to avoid charging electric cars in the evening during a heat wave last September to help avoid overloading the grid, while utility officials in other areas have warned at times of possible rolling blackouts to prevent system collapses.

First, the good news: Many experts think the utility industry will be ready to generate enough power for the coming EV wave, thanks to planned capacity increases costing hundreds of billions of dollars.

But that isn’t the whole story. The potential for much more serious bottlenecks looms in the local legs of the grid that transmit electricity to individual homes and businesses. Expensive upgrades could be needed for these neighborhood power-distribution systems. Additional spending will be needed to bolster the wires and transformers serving commercial sites as electric trucks and delivery vans become common.

Combined, all these investments likely would result in higher electric rates, many industry analysts say. “The more they invest in the grid, the more those costs go back to consumers,” says Brad Stansberry, U.S. energy advisory leader at audit and consulting firm KPMG.

Let that last sentence paragraph in. Utilities will have to spend a lot of money to add capacity. It will cost even more if the capacity is a clean energy input source.

Cleaner energy will eventually come from solar, but how do we get that energy to Chicago? At what price?

I still wonder how the heck an evacuation of Florida happens when everyone needs to drive hundreds of miles to escape a hurricane. 

Are you convinced we have enough lithium, nickel, and other materials to make enough batteries? I am not. The more EVs we do build, the more metals we need. At what cost, and at how much pollution mining them?

Distance and Convenience

For me, it’s all about distance and convenience. 

It’s convenient to charge at home, provided you don’t go anywhere. I drive long distances and to the middle of nowhere frequently.

It is not so convenient to have to stop whatever you are doing to charge a vehicle (assuming you can find a charger in the middle of nowhere) or to rent a car if you want to drive five hours straight.

EV Sales Spiked in California

For a different take, Wolf Street reports EV Sales Spiked in California. First Uptick in Electricity Sales after 13 Years of Decline

But what about subsidies and the extraordinarily high price of gasoline in California? 

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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72 Comments
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CoachAl
CoachAl
3 years ago
Solar panel installations need to be replaced in 20-25yrs, and they’re mfr’d in factories powered by electric from burning coal.
Same situation for large format batteries in EV’s. But they won’t last 20 yrs with daily cycling.
Good luck using solar panels, batteries and EV’s to replace all the work being down in a 100 million barrel per day global economy.
“Renewable energy” is a religion. Why? It doesn’t help the environment ( actually increases environmental impacts and industrial waste), increases user costs (inflationary) and lowers economic productivity (inflationary) – all negative outcomes.
WHY????
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  CoachAl
This is not going to be a problem.
Dr. Pangloss has assured me that everything is working out OK.
Jackula
Jackula
3 years ago
Electric cars make economic sense especially if one lives in an area with very cheap power like the Pacific northwest with their hydroelectric power. Even in Los Angeles they make economic sense. I was at a political forum luncheon last week and in the conversation with a civil engineer at the table he mentioned he had a Mercedes and a Tesla. He puts $70 a week of gas in the Mercedes when he uses it or $7 per week of electricity when driving the Tesla. Much prefers driving the Tesla. I think electric cars make a lot of sense, they are far more efficient because there are no waste heat losses, are much cleaner than ICE cars, and will last far longer. Power plants using fossils fuels are far more efficient that internal combustion engines(ICE) in automobiles. This all being said the conversion will take time, it’s much cheaper to replace the existing transportation infrastructure as it ages out.
Counter
Counter
3 years ago

Disaster

Inconvenient fact 1: Selling more electric cars won’t reduce oil use very much.

“The world has 15, 18 million electric vehicles now,” says Mills. “If we (somehow) get to 500 million, that would reduce world oil consumption by about 10%. That’s not nothing, but it doesn’t end the use of oil.”

Most of the world’s oil is used by things like “airplanes, buses, big trucks and the mining equipment that gets the copper to build the electric cars.”
Even if all vehicles somehow did switch to electricity, there’s another problem: Electricity isn’t very green.
Inconvenient fact 2: Although driving an electric car puts little additional carbon into the air, producing the electricity to charge its battery adds plenty. Most of America’s electricity is produced by burning natural gas and coal. Just 12% comes from wind or solar power.
(Still have conventional electric with wind and solar. Much is wasted cycling traditional power)
“If you’re worried about carbon dioxide,” says Mills, “the electric vehicle has emitted 10 to 20 tons of carbon dioxide (from the mining, manufacturing and shipping) before it even gets to your driveway.”
TheCaptain
TheCaptain
3 years ago
I bought a Chevy Volt used a few years back. It was a 2013 which I bought in 2018 for $16k out the door. 33k miles on it, leather interior, perfect condition, looked like new. It only gets 30miles on a charge but the shift back and forth from battery to gas is seamless. I could get to work and nearly all the way back without switching over to gas. 50 miles would be the right battery range to over 99% of the need and then gas would be used for any long trips. I get 85% of the benefit of electric and 0 of the downside of being 100% electric. I would never bother trying to charge away from home.
It was such a good idea, they cancelled it saying it was too expensive. I think this is probably the best low cost hybrid on the used car market.
Call_Me
Call_Me
3 years ago
“Are you convinced we have enough lithium, nickel, and other materials to
make enough batteries? I am not. The more EVs we do build, the more
metals we need. At what cost, and at how much pollution mining them?”
It should be kept in mind that the fleet of electric vehicles already in service will need new batteries too, but at least they last longer than cellular phone batteries.
A couple questions –
+Society is still addicted to plastics made from refined petroleum. Oil will continue to be refined, what will happen with all the ‘waste’ gasoline if vehicle useage declines substantially? Go back to dumping it in rivers?
+Has the hazard of vehicle fires been adequately understood by the general public? Dealing with them in colder climes during winter months will be a challenge.
Call_Me_Al
jivefive98
jivefive98
3 years ago
I think you need to phrase the question differently. It is not do you want to drive using electricity or gasoline? The question is becoming .. do you want to drive with electricity or not at all? Oil is superior. Gasoline is superior. Diesel is superior. Natural gas is superior. But they are all FINITE at prices the average person will be able to afford. You have to ask the right question.
lamlawindy
lamlawindy
3 years ago
Reply to  jivefive98
They are all finite given current existing technology. Advances in drilling and refining other sources (tar sands, for example) can increase the amount of oil and natural gas that we are able to produce. That being said, producers have reduced capital investment in extraction due to political/social factors, so your premise may turn out to be correct.
Thetenyear
Thetenyear
3 years ago
EV penetration will need to grow 5x to 7x to hit 1/3 to 1/2 of light vehicle sales within seven years. There are not enough materials or subsidies to even come close to this target.
Now imagine being Ford or GM and having to allocate production between electric and gas powered vehicles. Look at how they struggled to get the right mix between large and small vehicles when gas hit $5 per gallon. Now throw in an all electric line up on top of that. It’s going to be a huge challenge to balance production with sales.
My guess is that car executives are not panning to have up to half of their light vehicle sales to come from the electric side by 2030.
This gives Tesla a huge advantage since they only make one type of car. Likewise, a company that sticks to gas powered vehicles would also have a competitive advantage. At the same time, it’s going to be a tough road ahead for traditional car makers and their shareholders.
All those ads make electric cars look really slick but it’s not going to be much fun when you are stranded at the charging station (if you can find one).
TheBigRoastBeefFrog
TheBigRoastBeefFrog
3 years ago
I drive a small compact electric SUV and it is dirt cheap to run. That would also be the case without subsidies. If anything subsidies have made it more expensive. For the distances we travel absolutely no problem. We load it in the evening and can fully load it in less than 12 hours with 1.8 kw. PV is in the planning and should allow us to be completely independent for about 10 months (North Germany). For very long US distances not too good.
People vastly overestimate the amount of electricity it will take to put Germany on electric. Why? In every liter of gasoline there are 1,6 kwh of electricity.
I don’t see ICEs disapearing any time soon and as a petrol head I don’t want it to.
Robbyrob
Robbyrob
3 years ago
Cocoa
Cocoa
3 years ago
Battery tech has a long way to go. Right now they are pricey novelty vehicles for soccer moms. If we can source battery from more common materials like iron and silicon then maybe we have a chance. Having 10-year-old kids in the Congo dig out precious metals is not sustainable nor is it moral.
Oil is probably better used as a material for plastics etc than burning up in an engine. CNG is a much cleaner and cheap fossil. Hydrogen would be but to make hydrogen is too energy intensive. How come nobody ever talks about public transit as an option???
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  Cocoa
Gasoline and plastics have 2 different sources.
Gasoline contains C4’s to C12’s (mainly paraffins alkanes, alkenes, and naphthenes) which is not used to make plastics or other petrochemicals. The main feedstock for gasoline is light oil – or you can crack heavy oil down. Oil is a liquid.
Plastics and petrochemical building blocks are mainly from C2’s and C3’s (ethylene, propylene) which comes from natural gas. Natural gas is a gas.
You can crack the light ends in waste streams from a refinery for use in petrochemical plants but natural gas usually much cheaper – and North America has plenty of natural gas.
So use your oil. Will not impact plastics production.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Cocoa
Years ago, GM realized that the energy of the future would by hydrogen powering proton exchange membranes (fuel cells)–a technology that is far cleaner than battery-powered vehicles, albeit with different infrastructure needs. Not well-known, the Obama takeover of GM ended that.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Of course once incentives end, demand plummets. Given the option of buying now or buying in a month for $5k more, almost everyone will choose the former.
EVs have a lot of room for improvement and get better every year. There’s intense competition for batteries and new breakthroughs are happening all the time. In a few years, the batteries will use very little rare earths compared to today. The chinese can build them dirt cheap. Some retail for under $10k USD.
EVs have only been produced in quantity for a few years. Give it time. ICE cars after a few years had a crank on the front to get started.
Electricity demand is an issue, but I think a big part of the plan is solar panels will become very inexpensive and more efficient. They’ll take up a lot of the load. Won’t work for everyone, but will help a lot. In some cases the energy comes from heavily polluting power plants, but in aggregate, EVs produce significantly less pollution.
Like it or not EVs are the future. They perform a lot better than ICE and are far less complex. In a few years they’ll be a lot cheaper to produce and operate. Car companies that don’t quickly focus on EV production will be gone in a few years.
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
Solar panels only work efficiently in certain geographic areas where there is a lot of sun, e.g., Colorado or California) with low density populations (i.e., reduces transmission costs and allows for effective areas to install panels). Not many geographies in the world that meet this criteria.
Solar do not work well in most areas due to lower hours of sunshine or higher population densities.
Fortunately, solar will have it’s place but will be far from a panacea.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
At the same time, we will likely never know what other alternatives are out there waiting to be discovered and developed. The primary strength of free-market capitalism is competition, the driving force behind innovation. Its other strengths are to satisfy demand and to achieve supply at the lowest cost, creating the greatest value given human needs.
When you think about it, is an EV subsidy any different than say free Covid shots? A bunch of minimally competent (and often not) people (aka elected politicians and government employees) have decided what is best for you.
Where in the Constitution, is the power granted to Congress to decide we should all drive electric vehicles?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Where in the Constitution does it say that all citizens must be able to read the Constitution?
Or understand what was written?
Rbm
Rbm
3 years ago
Subsidies are in theory are supposed to be there to help a new industry get off the ground.
The grid will get updated when it means more profit for energy companies. Or after the government forks money out to them.
Evs may not work for everyone. But i know people who have solar on their house and are charging their own cars.
Personally i plan to drive my gas vehicles till they die and by that time hopefully all this will be sorted out. Then ill be looking for a hybrid.
People hate change. Im sure someone was complaining about cars years ago and how horses are better.
Everything has plusses and minuses.
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  Rbm
Horses were more maintenance intensive than ICE vehicles.
ICE more maintenance intensive than EVs. Will be nice not have to go to the gas station every week and to get oil changes every 6 mths.
I also cannot wait for this to be sorted – maybe will be just in time for my next vehicle probably in late 2020s (but probably not – nothing in this world changes in 10-20 years – took 50 years to replace coal steam engines with diesel electric).
Thailee
Thailee
3 years ago
I think the EV subsidies need to end RIGHT NOW. I think that government can have a role to play in jump starting industries, but it needs to have a sunset clause. While not a particularly good one — the original EV subsidy did have a sunset clause. The 200,000 units per manufacturer. Tesla and GM had reached it. Toyota had reached it. I suspect Ford reached it in Q4 2022. Nissan was going to reach it this year, maybe by Q2 2023.
EV’s need to stand on their own. There are use cases where they are stupid and don’t work. If they get rid of the subsidies, the EV’s will have to truly demonstrate capabilities as they grow out the use cases where they make sense. EV’s would have a stronger product in 2-3 years if the subsidies stopped!
That said — I own an EV, and will NEVER buy another ICE vehicle. You could not give me an ICE (I turned down a free ICE last year). I hate my remaining ICE car after owning an EV.
I fit the use case for EV. Most of my mileage is within 70 miles of where I live. I charge at home at the cheapest rates. When I travel longer distances (about every 6 weeks) — I am am entirely willing to charge at Tesla superchargers for 30 minutes. My longer trips almost never exceed 500 miles. I’ve probably avoided 8-10 stops at gas stations which are about 7 minutes for every one time I use a supercharger for 30 minutes — seems like a win to me in terms of time spent. CCS chargers SUCK — they have a major design flaw and are always broken. CCS will always have this problem and suck. Tesla chargers are almost never broken.
The maintenance difference for an EV is dramatic. I have a 2013 Nissan leaf with 125.000 miles. I’m not forgetting anything in the following lists of expenses.
1) Tires — about every 45,000 miles – and tire rotations.
2) Windshield wipers and fluids
3) 12Volt battery for key fobs, radio (about size of motorcycle battery and cost me $130) — lasted 9 years before replacement.
4) Door handle broke.
5) Windshield wiper motor replaced.
6) Charger that came with EV broke. Replacement cost $250. Replaced it twice at about the same cost — so $500 total.
7) I installed myself a 30 A plug on side of house, and 1 in garage. Cost me about $120 at home depot for wire and parts.
That is the ENTIRE repair and maintenance cost. The car still goes about 85% of the distance it did when new. Nothing is broken. Power is identical to when it was new. For my ICE car, I’ve spent $1800 in just the last 4 months.
I get that there are people with use cases where EV’s don’t work and feel the subsidies are unfair. I also think they are unfair to those people. But you can keep your crappy ICE maintenance and repair schedule. EV’s work for me, and I’ll be happy when I never have to do another oil change.
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  Thailee
Nice
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Tesla was resting in July 13/20 2020 filling station. TSLA might close Sept 26/ Oct 3 2022 gap, before taking another break. With full batteries TSLA might reach Apr 2022 hights. Thereafter swim with the sharks. Swimming in cold water is more fun and entertainment than going to space. Ilan is old, cold and bold.
UconJac
UconJac
3 years ago
except in cases supporting essential sectors such as the military, government has no business picking winners and losers.
Rbm
Rbm
3 years ago
Reply to  UconJac
Imo Energy is an essential sector. The more renewables or diversified we are the the better we are off as a whole.
davebarnes2
davebarnes2
3 years ago
We did.
Took delivery of a VW ID.4 in November 2022 after a 13+ month duration in the order queue.
No tax credits for us.
We are happy with our new car which replaced a 2007 Audi A3.
radar
radar
3 years ago
A car with an ICE can run for decades and the poor folks typically buy older cars and keep them running as that’s what they can afford to do. Will they be able to afford an older car that needs the battery replaced?
jhrodd
jhrodd
3 years ago
Reply to  radar
We bought a 2013 “lease return” Fiat 500e 5 years ago with 23,000 miles on it for $7500. It still has the same battery capacity as a new one and the only maintenance/repair has been 2 wheel speed sensors. They cost about $25 and take 10 minutes to install. One of the best purchases I’ve ever made.
radar
radar
3 years ago
Reply to  jhrodd
So you’re saying the batteries don’t die and need to be replaced?
jhrodd
jhrodd
3 years ago
Reply to  radar
The Fiat uses the Bosch system which is heated and cooled. I have heard of a small number of battery failures but they were not necessarily high mileage or age vehicles. Ours at 10 years has battery range that is completely unchanged from new and I don’t see why it can’t go for another 10. We have certainly gotten our money out of it. There are other components such as the inverter and the AC compressor that are pretty expensive and could be a deal breaker if they fail.
jhrodd
jhrodd
3 years ago
Reply to  jhrodd
I have also been driving a 1952 Dodge pickup for 26 years that has never been rebuilt and it still purrs like a sewing machine.
Avery
Avery
3 years ago
Full size EVs with a range and fueling time near ICE vehicles are theater. Any EVs for the unwashed will be a short-distance tether in order to not roam out of the backyard. Golf carts and e-assist bikes are fine for that purpose.
No new nuclear reactor fleet.
No massive upgrade of grid from the above to the garage/charging stations.
That high-school physics DC-AC-DC work-out.
All theater.
TechLover
TechLover
3 years ago
If the subsidy in Germany ended in December 2022, I would expect a huge amount of sales were pulled forward. Anyone who was considering to buy in the next six months would have definitely considered buying in December to take benefit of the expiring subsidy.
Comparing Jan 2023 to Jan 2022 in this case is not the right way to do it.
This effect should slow down in 3-4 months so it will be instructive to compare April sales to prior year to get a sense of actual effect of subsidy expiration.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
CA imitate China, spaced out like Germany. Putin spanked Germany, but CA is still floating like a Chinese balloon, until
it will be deflated in the next recession and plunge underwater.
ohno
ohno
3 years ago
Maybe they wont be giving us a choice between gas or an ev if we dont active against these morons. Also perhaps they plan on a lot fewer of us even being mobile to begin with. Time to get rid of these clowns.
Directed Energy
Directed Energy
3 years ago
EV’s are a niche market and don’t work for most people. Urban commuters are possibly ok, but rural folks and long distance drivers are a no-go for this tech in its current state. You need electricity generation (fossil fuels) charging infrastructure, and greatly increased range along with decreased charge times for this to work for the masses. Heat dissipation is another significant hurdle to clear for faster charging.
In regards to fossil fuels generating electricity, why even bother to convert the fossil fuel to electricity, and suffer all that line loss, when fossil fuel can just continue to power the automobile current state?
Signed,
An EE
davebarnes2
davebarnes2
3 years ago
EVs
Brought to Your Attention by the Committee to Save the Apostrophe from Abuse
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  davebarnes2
Like the comma, the apostrophe (‘) is a dangling symbol of male oppression. For the same reason, one should not abuse colons.
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
After 50, should get it tested routinely. Abuse or not.
Directed Energy
Directed Energy
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Male domination is going nowhere. Simple fist fights will end that promptly.
Directed Energy
Directed Energy
3 years ago
Reply to  davebarnes2

An apostrophe is used to make something plural. As in “more than one” for you common core math flunkies.

Matt3
Matt3
3 years ago
I drive by a hotel on my way to work each day. They have 3 charging stations. Most days they are empty but some days full. About 100 cars in the lot. If half needed to be charged, how much more power will the hotel need to have available?
Seems to me that we are taking a well distributed energy source – gas – and changing to a centralized energy source – electric. Centralized is generally a bad idea.
For me, they can’t subsidize EV’s enough. Many days, I drive 5 hours or more. EV’s just don’t make any sense except for the people that think they are carbon free and that the mining and the electricity just magically appear!
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt3
Someone who drives 5 hrs a day is not their target market.
The target market is someone who drives ~1 hr a day (say 30 minute commute each way including a stop to pick up/drop off kids at school). Especially in 2 car families you can have 1 EV and one ICE vehicle for family trips (I have several friends who have gone this route). That market is probably half of America or more so EV’s’ should be able to reasonably achieve a 50% market penetration.
Marktaxcpa
Marktaxcpa
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
That would be 25% penetration if half the population has one of each.
And only works with single family homes
Your numbers are way too high
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Marktaxcpa
Not sure where you live, but most of the population (80% or more) lives in Urban areas. Even single people in Urban areas can get away with an EV because they probably only do a long distance drive (3+ hrs) a few times a year if at all. Plus urban driving is where EV’s shine since the regenerative braking of stop/go traffic increases their range. It’s really only rural and long distance drivers that have issues.
I suspect the penetration will get very close to 50% way faster than people think. By 50% I mean half of all new cars sold in a year. Obviously the hundreds of millions of existing cars will be around another decade or 2.
CRS65
CRS65
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
You are right! I really do not understand those who make an argument against EV’s in 2023 when we are probably not even 10% of the way in upgrading our 1950’s era electric grid and building out a charging network. Battery technology is getting better every year, as is the software that operates an EV efficiently. The reason that governments subsidize investment and consumer purchases is to encourage private sector investment because new technologies which are set to displace legacy technologies require a certain level of adoption and development before they can truly be profitable and few private sector companies are willing to invest and lose money for 10 years or more to get to that point.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Marktaxcpa
That problem could be solved simply by requiring all liberal democrats to buy an electric car.
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago
The main issue is where you get the power from. It’s not hard to work out the power needed to charge a 100kW battery over 10 hours, and multiply that over millions of EVs nationwide. It comes to 10 to 100s of additional GW of electrical capacity needed, depending on the charging times and charging profiles. Also, compare the average household consumption with that of an EV and imagine how the local distribution grid can handle the equivalent of double or triple the power needed for every street
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
That number you quote assumes you need to do a full recharge each night. That obviously won’t be the case as many times you’ll only use 1/4 or 1/2 of the charge in a day and so need far less electricity to recharge the car to full.
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
My point is that for the 3 or 4 hours that you might charge a car, it’s tripling or quadrupling your house’s average power consumption. How will the local distribution grid manage this if every household had an EV, even if only 10% are being charged at an one time?
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
Most people charge at night when the strain on the Grid is only a fraction of what it is during the day (A/C + Industrial needs).
Many States already have variable pricing (ie cheaper to use power in off hours) and they can incentivize people to charge at night by this.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  ZZR600
What is it in cold cranking amps?
ZZR600
ZZR600
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I think some home fast chargers are 48A
CRS65
CRS65
3 years ago
I really do not understand why some people are so quick to point out that tax credits work. Of course they work and they typically achieve their intended purpose of jump starting new technologies that society and the government decide should be advanced. The U.S government did this for a long-period of time with semiconductor technology in the 1980’s and 1990’s. We did this in the late 1990’s with genomic research, and we did this with lithography technology that revolutionized semiconductor manufacturing. We also have successfully accelerated the advancement of solar cell technology with the help of grants and tax credits and now solar energy is one of the most efficient forms of electricity production.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  CRS65
Let’s be clear what tax credits are. They are government-instituted corrections to your value perceptions. In essence, the government is saying ‘we know what is better for you than you do.’ Remembering who our elected representatives are, do you seriously think they have the wisdom to make such judgements?
If the answer is yes, then forget free market capitalism. Move to a socialist country with a planned economy–because the government knows what is best for you.
Now, there may be some opportunities for government to achieve economies of scale through intelligent strategic planning and resource allocation, but picking winners and losers using today’s elected officials–NO WAY!
CRS65
CRS65
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I disagree and I am the essence of a free market capitalist. I am an American, I am a third generation small business owner, I learned about business and economics by first working for parents and grandparents as a child within their businesses. Then I extended that learning by earning a business degree and spending nearly 10 years working with other business owners as corporate banker, before switching careers and then starting my own business. That being said, business and running the largest and most powerful country on the planet are two different matters. There are always going to be technologies that arise which it is quite obvious will result in significant and beneficial creative destruction and government around the world have a responsibility to their nation to try to gain a competitive advantage in those areas.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  CRS65
Tax credits have also successfully and dramatically increased the production of minority children.
Unfortunately many of these children have little interest in education, and have a poor attitude in general.
JeffD
JeffD
3 years ago
One (big?) reason EV sales increased in California is that a regulation is in place to ban the sale of non-EV vehicles, phasing in beginning in 2025 (34 months away) and completing in 2035. By 2045, the number of gas stations remaining would make owning a gas powered car impractical. People who plan to own a car for ten years or longer are effectively being forced to buy an EV today.
klausmkl
klausmkl
3 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
good point, california is like a world of it’s own.
ohno
ohno
3 years ago
Reply to  klausmkl
libtard communist hell with our version of Trudeau in charge.
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
I am guessing that the EV regulation gets pushed out like the CARB regs for diesel trucks. Industry won’t be ready. That being said, I like the idea of having an ICE SUV in the driveway. We want the ICE SUV in case of emergency, which Mish talked about.
As for the EV, a car with solar power and batteries at home eliminates fuel costs completely. Saves me time going to the gas station. Like that. The issue is the $70,000 investment to buy the car and $35,000 to build out the solar at home. Over a fifteen year life for the solar plant payment is $325 per month. The car cost is another $35,0000 and $600 per month over what I have spent in the past. Going solar will make more sense if prices drop.
By the time I want to do that, I may just drop a car and buy a subscription to Tesla’s drone car service instead.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Will they have Government allocated licenses for gasoline station ownership like the fishing quota licenses that are passed down generation to generation and are leased out to folks that do actual fishing. It’s “owning” a Government license that’s important, not the fish.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Recessions clear malinvestments.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
When, and only when, they are allowed to clear.
Esclaro
Esclaro
3 years ago
The ignore button is the best feature of this site.
rktbrkr
rktbrkr
3 years ago
So rugged capitalist, Elon Musk, has been getting rich on government subsidies like a welfare queen?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  rktbrkr
Elon is just following an observation attributed to Willie Sutton (who utilized illegal bank withdraws for his income), “Because that’s where the money is.”
Dr Funkenstein
Dr Funkenstein
3 years ago
How much is oil subsidized in the form of a large military to keep black gold, Texas tea flowing from the Middle East? Think 1991 Gulf War. Of course I remember those people who were saying the era of cheap oil was over yelling and screaming when gasoline went up 10 cents a gallon when Iraq in invaded Kuwait and 40% of the world’s oil supply went off the market.
rktbrkr
rktbrkr
3 years ago
Reply to  Dr Funkenstein
I wonder what the cumulative tab for oil depletion allowances is?
klausmkl
klausmkl
3 years ago
Tesla was fined 2 million for misrepresenting the mileage in Cold weather by 50%. Folks can barely afford food. We have not seen anything yet with inflation. It has just started. Unless you listen to Joe Biden who at 80 lies about everything. Biden’s build back better means destroying the Nord stream pipeline for europe. What do you think he has in store for America?
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
3 years ago
Reply to  klausmkl
A proper socialist state has internal visas for long distance travel. Long distance travel is more than half the range of an electric car.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
Thank you. An entirely appropriate definition of “long distance travel.”

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