Should Trump make the best of a bad situation or do something stupid?
Deportation Debate
Sadly, the opinion of Apes is likely the overwhelming favorite X position.
I replied to Fallacy Hunter as follows: I am on record of being in favor of 1. Sealing the border 2. sending back criminals (not counting just being here) 3. Developing a sensible immigration policy 4. Not doing something stupid that could collapse our economy.
Only 8 of 83 Workers Show Up on Construction Site
Here’s a Video on Construction that kicked off this recent deport 20 million meme.
LiveEasy responded …
I own a construction company. More illegals come in looking for work than Americans do. Americans don’t want to do hard labor anymore and some illegals are willing to do anything just to provide for their family. Huge difference in work ethic too. It’s not that the jobs are going to them it’s just if we’re being real Americans go to the union cause of all the benefits they provide and because of the lack of work that’s required to maintain the job. Illegals go to private companies cause they know they won’t get hired by the unions and some private companies pay them a lot cheaper then Americans because they are illegal and guess what they do more work and get the job done quicker and more efficiently.
Further comments blasted LiveEasy but he responded that he does not hire illegals.
BM responded to LiveEasy
Exactly. I own a construction company as well. Americans now days come out of high school or where ever and think they should be starting at freakin $30-$40 an hour. Hispanics are flat out better workers and we still pay them good. $20-30 an hour with paid insurance and benefits.
An Interesting Exchange
“I just love how everybody thinks my comments insinuate that I pay my workers cheap. I’m a small private company I pay my employees extremely well for the positions they are in, well above minimum wage.”
Yes, let’s deport them all “so companies can’t hire them” and see what happens.
What Would Happen?
Send em all back and watch construction collapse, food rot, and hotels and restaurants without staff.
Deport 20 million “no less” says Apes, with only 7 million unemployed.
Imagine the bidding war on labor and all of the inflation that would bring.
The US is already the highest cost producer of steel and autos. Let’s make that the case construction and everything else.
It would surely do wonders for the cost of construction and by implication the cost of a new home.
And I hear it will help Trump increase exports (sarcasm) along with a stagflationary recession followed by economic collapse.
Regarding the 14th Amendment
@AnselLindner asks “What’s more likely? Trump’s high powered Constitutional legal team didn’t see something this obvious, or you’re wrong?”
To which I replied: “I will take door #3. Trump just did not give a damn (like Biden on Student debt)”
What Will Trump Do?
I commented that I don’t know. That train of thought led to this silliness.
Yes, Mexicans paid for a wall, Trump got us out of Afghanistan, and Trade wars are good and easy to win. We have a law on TikTok that Trump promoted and now doesn’t want and illegally suspended.
Will Trump Do What He Says?
Yes on some things, definitely not on others, and perhaps on still others.
Q: Will Trump will seal the border?
A: Yes! And since that is what most of the country wants, let’s give Trump a big genuine high-five.
Q: Will he deport them all?
A: Zero chance
Trump vs Trump
Trump v. Trump is where things get interesting.
In contrast to statements that he would deport them all, Trump has also made two sets of conflicting statements, and so has border czar Homan.
Watered Down Deportation Effort
The Wall Street Journal reports Trump Allies Fear Watered Down Deportation Efforts
“This isn’t going to be neighborhood sweeps and military vehicles going through the city,” Homan said in an interview with Dr. Phil McGraw on Thursday after meeting with New York Mayor Eric Adams. “I told him, you know, President Trump and myself have committed that this is going to be a targeted enforcement operation.”
Behind the scenes, Homan has emphasized pursuing immigrants with final orders of removal and criminals that the government can easily reach, according to people familiar with the matter. Roughly 1.3 million migrants already have orders of deportation from an immigration court.
“I keep getting asked, ‘how many people are you going to deport?’” Homan said in a brief interview. “Well, I don’t know. It depends on the resources we’re given.”
Trump’s hard-line immigration backers say they have noticed a retrenchment. They say they are holding their fire to attempt to influence the incoming president before they criticize him openly.
The president-elect’s allies also are concerned by the Trump team’s willingness to exclude some categories of migrants. Trump said in a recent interview with NBC, for example, that he wanted to work with Democrats to come up with legislation to protect Dreamers, immigrants in the U.S. illegally who were brought as children, from deportation. Backers of hard-line immigration policies view an exemption for Dreamers, who often have bipartisan support, as a slippery slope.
Trump Wants Deal to Protect Dreamers
On December 24, 2024, I noted Trump Backs Down From Strong Sweeping Deportation Promise
Please note the obvious: Trump cannot deport them if there is a deal for dreamers.
So, one way or another Trump will and won’t do what he says.
Trump’s Choice
- Trump can try (and fail) to deport them all.
- Trump can opt for a deal with Democrats to come up with legislation to protect Dreamers.
Since Trump has made both statements, which one is false?
The latter would rid of hard criminals much faster and not create a massive stagflationary job shortage.
Trump also made similar Dreamer statements to the Wall Street Journal.
A Complicated Subject
Please consider Trump’s November 11 Wall Street Journal Interview.
When he visited the Journal recently, we asked about aliens who have been here for years, who might have U.S. citizen spouses and children. His response was that he wanted to help them.
“We have a lot of good people in this country, and we have to do something about it,” Mr. Trump said. “This has been going on for a long time. It’s a complicated subject.” He declined to specify whom he’d deport: “I don’t want to go too much into clarification, because the nicer I become, the more people that come over illegally.” Yet after stringent talk about deterrence, he ended with nuance: “There are some human questions that get in the way of being perfect, and we have to have the heart, too.”
Trump wants to have a heart. And we have a lot of good people in the country, Well Fancy that!
So, should we “deport them all” despite the fact Trump says that it’s a “complicated subject“, and “we have to have the heart, too.”
Which Trump Is It?
- “We have a lot of good people in this country, and we have to do something about it”
- “We need to deport them all.”
I ask again, which one of those contradictory statements is false?
Not to worry, in Trumpland, both are obviously true because Trump always does what he says.
But in the real world, will Trump 1) make a good deal in response to a bad situation or 2) do something stupid?
Recall my reply to Fallacy Hunter: I am on record of being in favor of 1. Sealing the border 2. sending back criminals (not counting just being here) 3. Developing a sensible immigration policy 4. Not doing something stupid that could collapse our economy.
My position is also the twice stated position of Trump, once to the Wall Street Journal and once to NBC. I was there first.
What Kind of Deal?
I discussed a sensible deal in The New Home for Hispanics is the Republican Party
Trump will not be as stupid as the Ape coalition wants.
However, to get a deal Trump might need to take a tough line, and that is happening now.
The quicker the deal, the faster we get rid of hard criminals! And we end needless labor market uncertainty too.
Related Posts
January 24, 2025: What Were the US Senators Thinking When They Debated the 14th Amendment?
The 14th amendment is clear because the 1866 debate over the amendment is clear. It will take a constitutional amendment to change that.
That’s my position, and it has nothing to do with whether or not change is desirable. People confuse the two ideas.
January 11, 2025: “A Blinding Flash of Common Sense” from Democrats on Illegal Immigration
The above post sets a good tone for a workable deal.
Did anyone change their mind?
To say mass deportations will create inflation is a very broad statement and depends on a lot of factors. Under Clinton there were over 12 million deportations with average inflation of 2.6%. Under Bush over 10 million deportations with inflation between 2-3% and under Obama over 5 million deportations with inflation under 2%. Not to mention this was way before the type of automation we see today which will have a far greater impact in the loss of many types of jobs.
– I am on record of being in favor of 1. Sealing the border 2. sending back criminals (not counting just being here) 3. Developing a sensible immigration policy 4. Not doing something stupid that could collapse our economy.
> That’s exactly what Trump is for (and frankly doing)! You both see eye to eye, and do on several things, so no surprise.
– I own a construction company. Americans now days come out of high school or where ever and think they should be starting at freakin $30-$40 an hour Hispanics are flat out better workers and we still pay them good. $20-30 an hour with paid insurance and benefits.
> Nice job owning a company! As far as Pay goes, you can’t expect Parents, Grandparents, Students, and “Most Importantly” Donors & Taxpayers to keep shoving $250k+ IN and Not to Expect a minimum of $100K to start. Cost of living now dictates this as well. In regards to Insurance, they don’t require it, so “No Rush” to get a job for Most, until 27? Is it? You must pay “Benefits of some sort, or nobody will apply…
– Send em all back and watch construction collapse, food rot, and hotels and restaurants without staff.
> Not at all. Construction pays well, and Requires Talent, but Laborers are definitely needed, and there is never a shortage of them around. My Family was in the trades, and I worked to help out occasionally. Most food is imported for that sort of work. Restaurants pair down in size, but it’s one of those self supporting industries. They become a clan so to speak, and literally take care, To a degree, of one another. I worked in this industry as well.
– Regarding the 14th Amendment
> Trump will win, on what He is looking to get done for “The Voters” and it will be much quicker than expected, and much more applauded than expected as well, IMHO!!!
– What Will Trump Do?
> Exactly What He said he “Would Do” which is ironically Exactly what “The Voters” Expect Him Ro Do!
– Mexicans paid for a wall. > Some called it “Catch & Release”
– Trump got us out of Afghanistan. > The flawless Plan his cabinet put together, YES! What Biden and Harris DID, “Not So Much”
– Trade wars are good. > True, as they have been both good and Ned, but it depends “Who” is doing the negotiations…
– Trump does everything he says. I stand corrected. > Nobody does that, not Even Trump, Silly…
Will Trump Do What He Says?
Yes on some things, definitely not on others, and perhaps on still others.
– Q: Will Trump seal the border? > Yes, and already 90% less crossings, and it’s not even done yet!
– Q: Will he deport them all? > Absolutely Not! He’s smarter than that, but gets the TDS affected twisted all up…
This is Interesting: Jonathan Turley Flags Constitutional Issue That May Help Trump End Birthright Citizenship… A very “Legitimate Source”
Is that the first time you’ve ever noticed that Trump always takes “both sides” of an issue?
One is usually a “hard” one that pleases the racist contingent of his support. Then the other is something more reasonable and rational.
The first makes his supporters that like that thing happy, then with the second, if it happens he can say, “See, look what it did!”
But, behind door #3, if the second doesn’t work, he looks for someone to blame and then says, “I wanted to do #1, but, some idiots I hired did number 2 and it didn’t work. Then shift the blame.
It’s the same every time.
Deporting 20 million will not cause inflation, which I would expect Mish to know is not the same as rising prices. I’d expect it to be deflationary.
Well I don’t know about that, to much money chasing few cars clothes food? I Think you need some lessons on economics.
Debatable. Read my reply below.
Those 20 million are spending like crazy. If you could kick them all out instantly, you would get huge deflation, as both goods inventory and service levels have those 20 million people/consumers baked into the current spending picture for the economy. That is a demand drop of 20,000,000 people who were purchasing goods and services who are all of a sudden not there paying anymore if/when instantly deported, aka over a three year period.
Enforce the laws.
There are over 100 million US citizens of working age who are “not in labor force”. At least half of those will work when they are no longer able to feed themselves by way of “the grift”.
25-64 is about 50% of the entire population. So 175 million people, give or take.
161 million people were officially employed last year.
Now, some of those are under 25 or over 65, but there’s still not 100 million able workers out there.
Are you suggesting that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is lying, to the tune of around 85 million people? I think you are.
I can’t vouch for your statistical data but I do know in my neck of the woods there is a large amount of younger Americans that don’t work. Life is grand I assume if you know how to work the assorted giveaway programs that have flourished here in the past couple of decades
The Labor force participation rate of 25Y/54Y is 84%. Of 55Y and over: 38%. of 20Y to 24Y: 72%.
Just as another reference, about 42 million people are on SNAP, and more than half of those are children. Even if you assume all the remaining 20 million are unemployed, you’re not coming close to 100 million freaking people.
I don’t know where some of this crap comes from.
“I don’t know where some of this crap comes from.”
From the Bureau of Labor Statistics, “working age people not in labor force” data. As of December of 2024, that number sits at 101,892,000 people in the United States.
Like I said, I believe at least 50 million of these people are able-bodied enough to work if they need to.
Businesses have an unlimited pool of low skills workers. Demand for ranches, one floor houses, is high. New immigrants can cluster together in three/five BR houses,
or sharing apt. All they need is a place to stay at night.
“the opinion of Apes”
Lol! Take 10 million renters out of the economy, and watch how fast the shelter component of CPI plummets. There are 42.5 million rental households in the United States. Illegal immigrants have been the primary cause of out of control CPI shelter inflation over the last three years. Open your eyes and look at the data.
PS My position is to shut the border tight to illegal entrants and to deport about 2 million criminal and non-productive illegal immigrants that are already here. Clearly, we have already paid the inflationary price of absorbing these people and now we just need things to stabilize.
I think the shelter inflation is much more due to the money printing and interest rate repression carried out by the Federal Reserve board of governors who were appointed by the Republicans and Democrats. That enabled real estate infestors using artificially cheap debt to hoard a bunch of housing for speculation.
The shock from an essentially instantaneous increase in population of 10+ million illegal immigrants is INFLATIONARY. You can’t instantly drop that many people in a stable economy without prices and government outlays shooting higher, exactly as we have seen over the last four years.
Well what can you expect when voters reward the Republican and Democrat politicians who opened the border wide to let in cheap labor because the businesspeople who donate to both parties want the cheap labor. The voters rewarded that with over 95 percent of votes to the Uniparty because the Republican voters are believing the lies about getting tough. And if its such an “invasion” then why arent Trump and the Republicans, having a majority in Congress, making e-verify mandatory by law?
Certain sectors of the economy seem to get off on keeping people in holding patterns… such as patient/doctor/pharmacy affiliations as we now have. Automobile Repair. Home Services. Subscriptions. On and on. That is all either free market driven or controlled market manipulated.
Americans wont work? Well then how do they eat, buy video games and pay for their entertainment? Perhaps the answer to the problems lie within that question. We, the government et al, are too generous with welfare and other entitlements. Either go to work or do without…its as simple as that
Take away Granny’s SS and Medicare, then. Those are the meaningful welfare programs from a budgetary standpoint.
A lot of the Grannys are supporting relatives.
What brought SS and Medicare into this?
A small price to pay to purify America!
The Trump/Vance might rule the US in the next 10/12 years. Deportations,
in repetitions, is a good thing. The rest will do whatever they can to survive.
Many will start small businesses employing cheap laborers. Others will work in the
healthcare sector, industry, service… competing with each other. Demand for highly skilled and skilled workers will be high. They will earn higher wages, filling gov coffer. The gov will make money from higher wages, much higher payroll, lower Fed rates and tariffs. Within a few years Trump/Vance might cut debt from $36T to under $30T, doing nothing all day, besides periodic deportations. Trump is
sowing the seed for Vance, his new apprentice.
Lol, the debt is almost surely gonna be higher when Trump leaves office.
There are plenty of legal workers. When ICE rolled through my area during his first term it took less than two weeks to replace illegal alien workers with legal workers in most industries.
Almost none of the illegals are doing specialized work. I know some industries will suffer but by and large most will not. The economy will also improve. More dollars bouncing around here instead of flowing out. I doubt many of the ones deported right now were even working.
I prefer to listen to what Scott Bessent, Trump’s Treasury Secretary, said. This is what is his and Trump’s thinking and take him for his word.
“If illegal immigration is good for GDP, just build a road from Tierra del Fuego to the Rio Grande and let everyone in. We could double GDP… but per capita GDP per AMERICAN would drop substantially. It’s about Americans’ standard of living.”
https://x.com/i/status/1882149372936483293
Define ‘standard of living’ – does it mean a 5000 sq ft house and a couple of BMW’s in the driveway? That ‘standard of living’ was never going to be sustainable over the long term. Look at the general decline from Castles to Manors to Cottages (most modern houses now). It’s a recursive process where things always revert to the mean and that’s small carbon footprints to survive.
“And the meek shall inherit the earth……”
Scott Bessent in the clip said that by the statistics those who were hurt by far the most by massive immigration were the the bottom quintile. Their wages and prospects were devastated. It didn’t hurt you or probably anyone you know but it damaged a significant part of the US population and Trump wants it to stop. Not only does this 20% vote but it is also just the right thing to do and no amount of intellectual gymnastics by economists and academics will change that basic fact. Take Trump at his word on this. Bessent is probably one of the most intelligent in finance and anyone who knows him will confirm that to you. He is on bord with Trump. It will happen one way or the other. Listen to the whole clip.
It’s about American’s standard of living huh? Where was this guy in the 60s, 70s, 80s and…..well all along. Doesn’t matter anyway: demographic death spiral…the titanic has hit the ‘berg and nothing is going to change that…nothing.
You sound like your writing this in your well-stocked underground bunker waiting for the apocalypse.
The apocalypse will start with Trump tariffs on Feb 1 or whenever he puts them into effect. It’s turtles all the way down from there.
Your bunker will run out of food before that happens.
The road to perdition is well paved from past administrations when are you going to come to the realization there no messiah the treasury is been pillaged and they won’t stop until the carcass Is completely cleansed you might get some crumbs,.. another stimulus 1 to you 99 to them what a deal no wander you voted for the same thugs.
If Jesus has not blessed you with such wealth, it probably means you’re going to hell.
Deporting the illegals will decimate the donkey show industry and cause rampant inflation in donkey show prices.
Empires for example, rise and fall.There are no exemptions. they get “good “leaders and bad leaders who do what they have to do take the empire where it needs to go, can you really get there from here? Here we are… a late,degenerate empire sitting on a debt bubble that is ready to blow sky high… run by people who benefit from inflation and deficits. Quoting, Bill Bonner
I heard a lot of the same arguments for keeping slaves. Sure the cost of food might go up a bit but don’t you think having 20 million less people would drive down other costs of living? What percentage of public benefits are spent on making up for the almost slave wages? Privatize the benefits, dump the cost on the public. What a scam.
They will start small businesses employing millions of cheap laborers. What else can they do. A few of them will become rich, millionaires. That’s why they came here to America.
If they serve in the Gurkha division they will become US citizens.
Trump is embarking on one of the biggest FAFO actions in history.
It’s not just immigration enforcement but also tariffs.
“Let’s have a gigantic tariff wall around the US so we make everything in the US & at the same time lets get rid of a huge part of our labour force.”
Implement a $100,000 fine for each illegal any company hires. Also, eliminate 100% of all welfare and free benefits (housing, food stamps, welfare, unemployment, Medicaid, healthcare, etc) and then we’ll see more people take jobs.
Then most businesses would go bankrupt and so would all the farms. Where you going to get your food, goods and services?
I went in for a minor surgery a few months ago. The surgeon was Pakistani, the anesthesiologist was Indian and all the nurses were Philippines, Hispanic or Chinese. That’s America in 2025.
Here in France my dentist retired last year and told me I would like who was taking over his practice. He was right. One was a woman from Colombia and her assistant was a woman from Thailand both in their twenties and both absolute knockouts. I must admit that I had stirrings while my teeth were being drilled.
People will work or starve if there aren’t any free benefits. We will also have LEGAL immigration.
You should move….
Sounds like the multicultural composition of the Roman Empire, right before collapse.
Welfare and it’s ilk are a social bribe to people to not commit crimes in exchange for a modest amount of money for living.
If you think all those welfare people would take jobs you are wrong. Many would just resort to petty crime in order to live (home B&E and shoplift food type things). If you think we can jail them all then ask the question which costs more, jailing someone for a year or a year of welfare. The answer is welfare is cheaper (and less likely to result in a death of someone when a petty crime is committed by someone inevitably carrying a weapon).
We could deport them to Canada where they will be well taken care of. That way it won’t be necessary to put tariffs of Canada if they accept our illegal immigrants. Problem solved.
I would rather pay to jail them. I know it costs more but it may deter repeat and 1st time offenders if they know they’ll lose their freedom. We’ll also have less people being born as people who can’t afford children won’t have them.
The employers and landlords are already felons per 70 year old black letter law. Start at the nice corporate office in Springdale Arkansas.
Except they have an easy out. Many businesses hire third-party firms to insulate themselves from direct hire. Landlords? It’s easy to get fake IDs from anywhere, heck you can make your own at home now.
Don’t forget Medicare. Your husband’s past Medicare taxes and current premium payments don’t pay the full bills. The rest is paid for out of general tax revenues (aka – my current taxes). So you two need to get off the government and my teat and pay your own way. It’s only fair!
Medicare is NOT a free benefit. In addition to payments made through paychecks there is also a monthly premium.
3 alarm fire! We’re six days into Trump’s final 4 years and the sky is falling!!!
Get ready for Argentina style inflation of 160%+. It’s coming, people, I swear!
How ever many illegals that is let’s get those deported ASAP. My guess is that’s at least a year’s worth of work.
At some point hopefully soon, Trump will pitch a grand plan. Among many things to consider, the plan should focus on getting Americans into residential & commercial construction jobs first. It should also provide a process for illegals to come out of the shadows and register through some means. The question here is do you force them to leave the country and then return? I would say yes primarily based on how long they’ve been here. If you came in under Biden’s watch, then you MUST leave.
You would also provide employers a one-time amnesty with helping their illegal employees follow the process for becoming legally registered. Along the way, you need to pass comprehensive immigration reform that does all sorts of things. Obviously, DACA has to be part of the equation as does things like locking down a process that requires immigrants to register overseas and closes the amnesty loophole and builds an impenetrable physical & electronic wall. It must include lifetime bans for not following the law.
Hopefully, this is something Trump will push to do. It certainly would give him a massive signature piece of legislation that has the potential to change the course of America.
Mish seems to be committing a logical fallacy of assuming that all these immigrants have specific skills and experience that the economy requires.
It’s not a simple math game, where you import 20 million low-to-no-skill labourers, and suddenly you have fixed the surgeon and engineer shortage.
I’m surprised Mish keeps labouring this point as if he has a legitimate point. How are you going to get labour inflation if the people you deport have no skills and are mainly a burden on the economy?
Wasn’t the argument that these illegals were doing the low level: low skill, low pay, low tax revenue jobs, and displacing the local population from those jobs, and keeping those wages down? Or am I mistaken and do half of the illegals have Masters and PhDs and 5-10 years’ experience in national skills shortage occupations?
Acting like you think you know better, whilst talking misconceived/unsunbstantiated garbage is a bad habit.
He also doesn’t address the fact that a large percentage can’t work. They are either kids under 18 or moms of those kids and have to full time look after them instead of being available for work (probably some old people too but a lot fewer people who are too old to work can walk that far).
If all the illegals were single working age people between 18-40 we’d at least be getting people able to contribute in some manner to the economy.
It doesnt matter to the politicians of both parties if we arent getting more doctors and engineers. As long as voters continue to vote for them which they do, all that matters is their campaign donors including the real estate industry want the immigrants because its cheap labor and in some cases, the only labor they can afford or find or they have to shut down. A lot of those businesses dont need anything too specialzed or educated, just someone to do hard work for a relatively low wage. Thats why they allowed them in. If they were all deported you’d instantly see pictures of empty grocery store shelves and people getting very worried about no food. People complain about grocery prices now even though they arent that high. People would get mad if there was a big spike in grocery prices to attract Americans to do the work. The stupid asset bubble fueled by the Republican and Democrat money printing rate repression is a big cause of the problem. If rents werent sky high, people could afford to pay more for groceries.
Americans no longer want to do hard work because they’ve been handed free money/benefits to stay home and play video games. Take it away and they’ll work.
Tesla is taking the EU to court because of tariffs on the Chinese ev, can you see that Tesla cars are made in china and the corporations are the problem on house prices and basically everything. But as we all know it’s easy to to redirect the blame to soft targets and control the narrative process.
This is going exactly as some of us had predicted. There will be a few weeks of high-profile crackdown news that gets idiot Americans cheering. Then it dies down and is quietly moved off the headlines. It would not succeed in deporting even a small percentage of the immigrant workforce.
But the effect is that the immigrants are even more scared and this drives down their wages further. As a domino effect, it also negatively impacts the wages of the non-immigrant workforce.
And that is EXACTLY what the corporate bosses wanted. What the corporate bosses want, the corporate bosses will get. Always.
Wait, where’s Hubris to smack you down with thinking that you know what will happen in 2 weeks time?
Whether you agree with his POV or not, Whirlaway is clearly giving an opinion here. That’s not hubris. He’s making a personal statement with what he has previously predicted, which means later he can be found correct or incorrect based upon his own assumptions and arguments.
That’s not the same as making unprovable or demonstrably false ‘factual’ statements as if received by God, when you’ve been wrong many times before. That’s hubris.
ROTFLMAO!
Is that hubris?
I wouldn’t ever bothered with Boston or Chicago metros – until the end.
This wonton action by the tugs in charge will only lead to more problems than solutions it’s been years that immigration legal or illegal has been part of the labor force, demographics required the work force development as is today and not until a solution is found the song should remain the same or else store some food or move to greener pastures..isolationist are working on their on destruction we live an a small world you must form relationships not isolation.
Theme of article is illegals are better cause they are cheap.
Who do they undercut as they are cheap?
Well for starters they undercut those legally here on visas and green cards who now work two jobs so they can earn what should be earned doing one job.
Illegals make the American dream possible says the article.
For whom are they making the American dream possible for, asks I?
Are young people able to Buy a Home, Start a Family, Afford Healthcare without being company Slave? Are Woman working in workplace to better their families or working so as to provide Healthcare for the two and three income households struggling to stay afloat?
New Home sales coming out in minutes. Let us see if this prosperity touted as illegals delivering manifests in Housing.
Time to spin the story cause illegals are adding sooo much to the economy.
Having run a Construction Co. number one rule is do it right the first time. Call Backs wreck bottom line.
Every call back means taking apart what already has been built, then putting it back together again. Generally means beside the tripling of labor inputs, buying new materials. Ultimately instead of getting on to next job where next revenue stream is coming from, wedded to past and an unhappy customer.
But yeh go right ahead and hire those illegals cause they are cheap and who wouldn’t want cheap labor cutting that 10-20 buck per lineal foot forest product.
Awesome numbers, Housing at levels reached 40 years ago.
Viva cheap illegal labor.
You make an excellent point here. The well-off do not have to compete with illegals for either housing or employment. Nor do they have to worry about illegals living in their rich towns and driving up their property taxes.
Deport them all. Works as an opening gambit in negotiations. Then he can horse trade with Congress to get to a position that works.
Talking tough about deportation has already reduced the 10,000/day level to under 100/day and at the same time boosted the number of illegals going back of their own choice.
As for 7 million unemployed; is that the number registered and looking for work or does it exclude the millions who are not looking because they can’t compete with the illegals? The wife of a blue collar worker might want to get a job as a hotel maid, but she doesn’t bother as she can’t compete with an illegal working for less than minimum getting cash in hand and no entitlements.
Plus how did the US function just 5 years ago with 10 million fewer illegals?
the basic problem is the Democrat Party is lawless and self centered supporting any action that furthers their voter base to retain and increase their power.
In a free market the market should set the price . So if you can’t get people to do work at 20 dollars a hour maytbe 60 dollars a hour may be needed Maybe at 60 dollars an hour the service is not needed any longer . Maybe the most high paying jobs are shifting from bean counters running a blog or stock traders to people who actually do work like construction , Plumbing , Hvac and so on maybe that is where the new millionaire opportunity is . Western women used to cook , do their own nails ,hair and clean their own houses I guess when the cost rises on those type of sevices that people will go back to doing it themselves . Technology has bought know how to a screen in front of you it is up to the individual .The family unit still rules because it allows multi generations to support the individuals to lean on each others talents expeirience and support each other financialy and physically through the different needs in life .
Let me first state the reason that I believe the illegal alien immigration waves have been allowed to occur over the last 40 years: After the baby boomer generation, young Americans were no longer having children at the rate necessary to support the vast number of financial (Social Security, Medicare, etc) promises made by DC politicos.
They were desperate to prop up these programs and they needed to harvest taxes to do so.
Instead of formulating intelligent, common sense immigration programs that would attract somewhat educated, culturally compatible foreigners to America, they just opened the flood gates and let ‘er rip.
As is common with most of DC’s “solutions”, this political solution was short-sighted and destructive to many Americans.
The ones that could least afford it; the low and middle class workers who are not in a protected ‘niche’ or requiring a particular degree or licenses to work.
Yes, I also agree, Trump will make a deal on Dreamers and not deport 20,000,000.
I don’t believe that he ever intended to.
He’s a businessman/politician, so he talks tough and then makes deals.
But, the reason that working class Americans do not flock to hard physical labor job openings like construction or meat packing is because those wages will no longer support a middle class life today here in America.
Illegal workers can afford to live on those wages for the following reason: many (most, according to my insurance agent) have no auto insurance, health insurance, many do not pay income tax, recieve food stamps, their children are enrolled in Medicaid, cost-free public school breakfast and lunch programs, possibly housing subsidies, etc.
In the past, American born, non-union construction workers rarely needed to access those social safety net programs.
BECAUSE THEY WERE PAID A WAGE THAT WAS COMMENSURATE WITH THE LABOR THEY WERE PERFORMING.
Now, they are not, or it is rare. And because of this, now we all subsidize the employers of illegal, foreign born workers.
The employers profit, and we all pay by higher auto insurance, higher health insurance, higher housing costs (especially rental prices), higher public education costs, etc.
Why should we subsidize profits for EVERY EMPLOYER OF ILLEGAL ALIEN WORKERS TO THE DETRIMENT OF AMERICAN BORN WORKERS??
Yes, ending illegal labor will be inflationary.
But, those costs have only been deferred, not permanently erased.
Just as the costs of labor that was off-shored decades ago.
Whether they were factory, call center or tech.
And it’s the same story with the H1B (and other visa types, which there are many) Visa scam.
WE ALL PAY TO SUBSIDIZE THE EMPLOYERS OF THESE VARIOUS FOREIGN WORKER SCAMS, WHETHER THE WORKERS ARE ILLEGAL OR UNNEEDED VISA HOLDERS.
Absolutely correct. We subsidize them with welfare benefits for the benefit of the corporations.
This is crazy and missed intentionally by the finance guys.
How about a work permit program for foreign workers, but no families. You go on welfare, you leave. Go back home. The same has to be applied to American welfare bums. You got to work! Only subsidy is for one child.
There are huge issues in America and no one seems to address. Trump is starting and that’s good. Both parties are corrupt and bankrupting our country and destroying the Middle Class.
There already is temporary work programs for foreign workers. Has been for decades in Texas and California. They are very successful.
“The employers profit, and we all pay by higher auto insurance, higher health insurance, higher housing costs (especially rental prices), higher public education costs, etc.”
This is garbage, the high cost of doing business is caused by government regulation, period. There will always be cockroaches trying to run businesses.
Would you ever buy uninsured / underinsured (the other guy) auto insurance extensions? Note that such coverage protects you, even as a pedestrian.
Illegals are illegal GET RID of THEM. Everybody doesn’t consider what will happen when the next recession (or depression-shortages) comes. There will be riots in the streets and then they will become a burden
Where did the alleged immigrant riots happen in the wake of the 2008 crash? Or the 2020 crash?
Only Stuttering Hank was rioting in 2008, on behalf of all his criminal Wall Street Pals.
“4. Not doing something stupid that could collapse our economy.”
What YOU are suggesting is stupid and will collapse our economy. But it seems this is what you want.
“1000% tariffs on everyone. I favor an economic crash”
You seriously need to do something about your TDS.
Illegal immigrants are a net loss to the economy. And the longer they remain, the bigger those losses become. And no, there will be no labor shortages. We didn’t have labor shortages before the surge in illegal immigration, and we won’t after they are gone.
Trump has wanted a deal for Dreamers since his first term. It’s been the Democrats who stood in his way. So no, there has been absolutely no contradictory goals.
Furthermore, the only thing obvious about 14A is that democrats are trying to subvert the intention of the law. This should be resolved by the supreme court and not require an amendment.
Finally, we just won another trade war in under 10 hours after it began, with full capitulation from Colombia’s Marxist leader. Another win of likely more trade wars to come that you claim can never be won.
You’re obviously not paying attention. There have been labor shortages for a long time now and the labor participation rate keeps dropping. You’re not factoring the millions of boomers that leave the workforce every year and they’re not getting replaced by enough young people due to low birth rates. It’s simple math that can’t be overcome by bigotry.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm
If the gov ended the SSI fraud that began in earnest after the Sub-Prime GFC, that would free up a large number of folks for the work force.
And somehow force the ‘living on Mom’s couch playing video games’ younger legions to get a job..
And there are lots of other Americans in the inner-city areas that have never worked a day in their lives.
But they suck the system dry 7-days-from-Sunday, if you know what I mean.
But alas, many of those folks may not be ’employable’…
“And somehow force the ‘living on Mom’s couch playing video games’ younger legions to get a job”
So you endorse slavery now? Why not make current workers just work for half their salary while you’re at it?
Mish, I think your predictions about Trump will prove to be as accurate as your predictions in 2019 about self driving cars. This is the year (2025) you predicted millions of truck driving jobs would disappear and of course no jobs have disappeared. I will add that back then you didn’t resort to name calling which is common in your articles today.
My call was actually pretty accurate.
Waymo Picked Up 4 Million Rides in 2024, Tesla Had Zero
https://mishtalk.com/economics/waymo-picked-up-4-million-rides-in-2024-tesla-had-zero/
I did believe and still do – point-to-point on highways is easier than city driving. OK I am a couple years off on Trucks, but it is inevitable
And please tell me what I am wrong about Trump on so I can make a note
Mish, I think you fancy yourself as a Futurist which brings you readers but your normal human biases impact your predictions. That fact is, no truck driver, courier or taxi driver is out of work as evidenced by the fact that they still have difficulty finding people to fill these jobs. If self-driving technology was ubiquitous, truck drivers would be working as Walmart greeters. Regardless, your statements in 2019 about massive job losses in the truck driving and courier industry are amusing to read in 2025.
I’ll remind you that you also suggested people who refused the Covid 19 vaccine were obvious morons. You were wrong on that point too. As it turned out to any thinking person, the smart ones opted out and now don’t have to worry about any potential adverse effects in the future. If you don’t play that lottery with your health, you reap the benefits that only thoughtful reflection can provide. You let your emotions guide you on that topic and not the facts.
With respect to Trump, you continue to think very linearly, like most people, and you take what Trump says and apply your own life experiences and perspective to what the unintended consequences will be. The trouble is, you don’t have his life experiences so you keep getting it wrong. No one knows what tariffs on other countries will do or what effect mass deportations will have but I would bet on Trump simply because he is not like any other politician in my 60 plus years and I want to see what becomes of this style of politics.
I do take comfort in reading some of your predictions on Trump (but not all) because I like to know what is unlikely to happen. I hope you will not call me names in response to this.
Construction is an interesting topic because America’s infrastructure is in dire need of repair/replace and the current grades aren’t great.
https://infrastructurereportcard.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2021-Grades-Chart.jpg
Aviation D+
Bridges C- (a few have already collapsed over the years)
Dams D
Drinking Water C- (all lead pipes were supposed to be replaced)
Energy C-
Hazardous Wast D+
Inland Waterways D+
Levees D (remember New Orleans?)
Parks & Recreation D+
Roads D
Schools D+
Solid Waste C+
Storm Water D
Transit D-
Wastewater D+
And every day 10,000 boomers head out for retirement and there aren’t enough young people. All the population growth has come from immigrants but yeah kick 20 million out and let me know how fixing that list turns out. Who’s going to do the work? And that’s just infrastructure, labor issues in health care, farming, policing, aviation, and on and on.
There is a large tollway being repaired near my house, all the people working at the site are Hispanic. Have never seen a black or white person at the site except for the cop that sits in the police car to make sure they don’t get run over. A perfect reflection of who’s doing hard work and who isn’t.
This is true and i agree. You can blame the politicians for allowing this to happen with welfare and drugs courtesy your open border. The politicians have destroyed the work ethic while bartering for votes. Just sickening what these devils in Federal and State governments did to our country!
Black people stopped doing construction work (trade work really) in the 70s after the Democratic party set out to ruin the Black family in the late 60s by promoting single motherhood. Without fathers around to pass along their skills to their sons Blacks lost the art of craftsmanship / trades.
That’s why you see high numbers of Hispanics in the trades. Family life with 2 parents is normal and fathers pass long their skills to their sons so you end up with generational level skills in the trades.
This absolutely.
Have seen it happen multiple times in my Life in the Trades.
Some of finest craftsmen were Blacks in Labor force in 60’s and 70’s here east of NYC. Especially stair builders.
All that Father to Son Skills passing down has been lost.
You and TexasTim should co-author a book on “The Plight of the Black Man: It’s his Fault and It’s Not: A POV Perspective from a Non-Black Man”. I’m sure it will be both enlightening and a best-seller. Good luck to your sales!
Wow really knocking out of the Ballpark today.
Impressive contribution.
Can you sell that to Bloomberg.
My wife and I decided to put a new deck in our back yard. I spoke to Ernesto and Juan at the local Home Depot parking lot who seemed credible and not very expensive, but I decided to go with an American contractor, Dave’s Decks, LLC. Dave himself came by and gave us a quote that was three times what Ernesto and Juan would charge, but we felt good that we were hiring an American company. Come Monday, who showed up to start the job? You got it, Ernesto and Juan.
Will Ernesto and Juan all follow the building code? Will Ernesto and Juan all have their insurance and other documents on file? Will the Better Business Bureau and Chamber of Commerce know who Ernesto and Juan are? When Ernesto and Juan max out their credit card and get shut off where will they get the materials needed to finish out the job?
Does any of that matter?
Most small businesses can perform the work. That’s not the issue. The issue is are they running a “business” or a “hustle?” Businesses have lines of credit, Businesses have employees or subcontractor networks. Businesses have a place in the community.
When labor costs rise, the task gets automated.
There are many automated construction techniques that use less, but higher skilled labor. If the cost rises look permanent, companies will invest in them.
Costs will rise less than projected and quality will improve. Long term, costs will fall as the automated systems will outperform labor.
Same is true for agriculture, meat packing, and everything else where the lowest cost labor has filled gaps.
A tale of two ski towns…
Aspen and Vail both have a problem with snow on sidewalks. In Vail they hire a lot of undocumented workers to shovel snow. There are two very large run down trailer parks and a city surrounding the Eagle County airport (Gypsum) where most of the undocumented people live.
Aspen real estate isn’t conducive to trailer parks or other blighted housing areas, so there’s a lot of snowmelt equipment under the sidewalks and driveways. It’s expensive, but cheaper than trying to find someone who’s willing to drive the 30+ miles a day from affordable housing to Aspen to shovel snow.
I imagine the cost is probably the same on net, especially when considering the “societal” costs aren’t absorbed by the people getting their sidewalks shoveled.
Maybe crack down on the welfare, “disability” SS and other free rides. See if the vast uncounted unemployed decide to go back to work or starve.
Maybe not having the illegals doing all the jobs “Americans” just won’t do, might be a good thing for a while. Tough, and possibly unpleasant for some, but eventually the “labor” either will or won’t and we just might have to mow our own lawns, and cook our own food.
Might even have to grow some of it or eat less.
Tired of the excuses for allowing illegals to stay. You’ll never break the cycle if you don’t show some spine.
See the “deal” RR cut with the Dims back in the ’80s for the ‘amnesty’ in exchange for cracking down on the border jumpers. No more ‘deals’. Deal with it.
A partial solution to US youth not being willing to do construction work is to end government involvement in most higher education as well as make student debt fully dischargeable in bankruptcy. It’s stupid that they are indoctrinating average high school kids to go to uni on student loans to get useless degrees that makes them fit to be baristas or unemployed. That will mean only the wealthiest (family money) or smartest (scholarships) will go to university straight out of high school. Now the government can used the money saved and then fund things like trade schools to train the electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc that society needs. Countries like Germany ensures that they get the average student the encouragement and assistance to take the trade route and thus Germany has the skilled workers to be an export powerhouse with excellent infrastructure.
“Which Trump is it?” The answer lies with the fact that Politicians speak out of both sides of their mouths.
Trumpo is no different and we should not set a higher standard for him than what we might for a Pelosi (Great Thievery, with her Stock sales and yet she purveyed to her electorate, much like Gavin Grusome).
What it would take for America to deport 11mn immigrantsWhat it would take for America to deport 11mn immigrants (archive.ph)
No. You are incorrect on the birthright issue. The debate over the 1866 Civil Rughts Act, along with the debate and the language of the Amendment made clear the intention. You ( or your sources) are totally misleading people.
I’ll just leave it there. But 2-3 years down the road when SCOTUS ultimately confirms the actual intent, rest assured I will politely say ITYS.