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Debt Ceiling Negotiations End With No Obvious Way Forward

This Medicaid chart from the Kaiser Family Foundation is just the increase from 2020.

No Sign of Progress

Reuters reports No signs of progress from White House, Republicans in ‘tough’ debt ceiling talks

Democrats say wealthy Americans and businesses should pay more taxes. Republicans want spending cuts. 

Republicans also want to reverse funding for the IRS, a measure the Congressional Budget Office projects would reduce the deficit.

Freeze or Cut?

The Wall Street Journal reports Debt-Ceiling Fight Comes Down to Spending: Freeze or Cut?

“We are not putting anything on the floor that doesn’t spend less than we spent this year,” McCarthy reiterated on Tuesday. A top negotiator, Rep. Garret Graves (R., La.), said the administration “thinks they can continue in the future on the same [spending] trajectory. And we’ve made it clear that that’s a nonstarter.”

Democrats say the GOP demand to cut spending is unreasonable, particularly after the White House has signaled it could agree to freeze discretionary spending next year and potentially cap future increases for two years.

House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries (D., N.Y.) noted freezing spending was a position many in his party “might even be uncomfortable with.” But he said House Republicans rejected that “because they want to impose draconian cuts.”

Democrats have criticized Republican negotiators for seeking an increase in military spending even as they are insisting on broader spending cuts. The GOP also rejected the White House’s proposal to allow Medicare to negotiate the price of a wider range of drugs, a measure the administration pitched as a way to reduce the deficit. Some in the administration are struggling to see a path forward in the talks, according to people familiar with the matter.

Two Year Freeze is Meaningless 

A two year freeze is meaningless because this congress will not propose spending increases anyway in the next two years. 

The Idea of draconian cuts is absurd. 

But Democrats have a point on military spending. If it was up to me, I would slash all spending, including military. I also suggest we could eliminate entire departments including the Departments of Education and HUD.

But none of that would do much unless we can cut entitlements and the military. 

McCarthy’s Key Demands

  1. Claw back unspent Covid-19 funds.
  2. Impose tougher work requirements for recipients of food stamps and other government aid.
  3. Halt Biden’s plans to forgive up to $20,000 in student loans.
  4. End many of the landmark renewable energy tax breaks Biden signed into law last year. It would tack on a sweeping Republican bill to boost oil, gas and coal production.

None of that is the least bit “draconian”. 

Understanding the 14th Amendment 

There has been much discussion regarding using the 14th Amendment as a way forward. 

Has anyone bothered to read or understand what the amendment actually says?

Section 4

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Curiously, the main purpose of section 4 was to punish the South in the wake of the Civil War. Debts incurred by the North were guaranteed, but not debts used in the insurrection.

That aside, the 14th Amendment deals with debt. And that means money already spent.

Thus, President Biden is mistaken saying that he can Constitutionally use the 14th amendment to do much of anything other than pay interest on debt. The 14th certainly does not allow new funding. 

The power of the purse undoubtedly belongs to Congress, not the executive branch.

The same applies to other ridiculous schemes including depositing a $1 trillion coin with the Treasury. 

Understanding Default

The US would default if it did not pay interest on debt. The risk of default is close to zero.

Before we get to the point of default, Social Security checks (new spending) would not be paid among other things. 

Failure to send out SS checks would raise so much havoc that Congress would indeed do something, well before default.

The Way Forward

Just because no one understands now the final resolution does not mean there is no way forward.

Not sending out Social Security checks, if it came to that, would get sides talking in a hurry. 

It’s no wonder the stock market shows little concern.

Perhaps some bills may not be paid in early June. So what? 

Quarterly tax payments come in by June 15. At that point there will be room to bicker for another two months if not longer.

Meanwhile, statements by Democrats and Republicans and discussions of default are meaningless theatrics. 

Understanding House Speaker McCarthy’s “Limit Save Grow Act” on Free Government Aid

The lead chart shows number of people collecting disability is soaring rapidly. McCarthy wants to do something about that. Liberals object.

For discussion, please see Understanding House Speaker McCarthy’s “Limit Save Grow Act” on Free Government Aid

McCarthy’s Peril

Recall that Kevin McCarthy became Speaker of the House by allowing a rule change to force a vote on a new Speaker if even one House Republican puts forward such a motion.

So don’t be surprised if some Democrats come to a deal rescue in the House upsetting the Tea Party. 

This potentially could cause McCarthy to lose his job as Speaker. 

That’s one way forward that I have not yet seen discussed.

If the final deal accomplishes anything, I will be happy. But set your bar low because neither side will get everything they want. 

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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72 Comments
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Oldest Most Voted
oee
oee
3 years ago
The deal is done. What they will do is to put it out close to the xdate and tell each base to vote for it or the world is going to end.
This is how it works. Your statements show you do not know how negotiations work.
We will see the following. “the far left and the far right opposes which means the deal is good,”
You can frame this prediction if you want it.
Biden can end this charade by invoking the 14th Amendment if he wanted to. However, he does not want to and want spending cuts.
I stand by my prediction.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Am I the only one that noticed that Section Four of the 14th Amendment makes any “reparations” oft touted by our melanin enriched citizens clearly unconstitutional?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
First and foremost, this is all de fault of de politicians and no one else. /smirk
Secondly, yes, not paying the interest on the debt would be a default.
But it occurred to me, would not repaying an investor the full principal of a matured note be a much greater default?
Seems as though having to pay 100% instead of 2% would be more painful to the Treasury.
But, hey, I’m not an economist; nor a politician.
Did I miss something?
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
The interest can be covered by taxes collected each month, so that will never happen. And the FED holds a huge chunk of treasuries. Worst comes to worst, they can just pay the FED their share and then the FED can immediately remit it back. And principal can be repaid by rolling over the debt. It has no net effect on the debt level.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
Sorry, I believe that rolling over debt requires creating new debt to pay off the old debt, and the current debt ceiling prevents the creation of new debt to pay off old debt. As when buying a property you have to get someone to ante up the money before you start signing notes. The Treasury doesn’t have the money, it needs the money.
Cocoa
Cocoa
3 years ago
Most of the debt cannot be accounted for. The USG has not been required to show how it spends money in years after getting busted for ridiculous spending and lost money. Don Rumsfeld notoriously had a press conference in which he said 2.3 trillion was “lost” in Pentagon. That was one day before 9/11. He had to as NYTimes was going to run an article on 9/11. Various sources have inferred that the USG cannot account for 21 TRILLION (!!!) dollars. Bureaucracies have budgets which they burn through. Most of this money is wasted, stolen or malinvested. See:https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2019/01/09/holding-u-s-treasuries-beware-uncle-sam-cant-account-for-21-trillion/?sh=7fabaa557644
It would be nice to allow the debt ceiling to be raised, but on the condition that every department that receives a budget of money MOST have a balance sheet with receipts. That way we know if it’s burned up in inefficiency or in somebody’s Swiss bank account. The taxpayer, however, was not responsible for this fraudulent change in law, and therefore 21 trillion in debt should be erased as it could be considered STOLEN until otherwise proven not, which nobody CAN NOT Prove it was stolen

KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Cocoa
I don’t doubt a lot of money is unaccounted for, but a huge chunk of it went to entitlements like social security, medicare, etc… . So, I think 21 trillion is an exagerration.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
One of my favorite entitlements is the oil depletion allowance.
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  Lisa_Hooker
I hear that Biden is depleting the Strategic Reserve, again. What is the reason this time?
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
3 years ago
Tell Ukraine we need our money back.
ohno
ohno
3 years ago
Good riddance McCarthy!
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
“Democrats have criticized Republican negotiators for seeking an increase in military spending even as they are insisting on broader spending cuts.”
Maybe congress shouldn’t have jumped at the opportunity to fund a proxy war in Ukraine.
“The GOP also rejected the White House’s proposal to allow Medicare to
negotiate the price of a wider range of drugs, a measure the
administration pitched as a way to reduce the deficit.”
I’ve noticed a plethora of “new drug” ads lately. All expensive and the lists of potential serious side effects in the ads are disturbing, especially those that list “death” as one of them. GOP defends high prices as incentive for Big Pharma to find new treatments, but i find i have no interest being prescribed those treatments, if i ever have a case of whatever they are designed to be used for.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Still no cure for kooky…
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Just how many did fall for “safe and effective?”
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
The part that’s left out is the pharmaceutical industry is the biggest campaign contributor. Neither party has any interest in lowering drug costs. Each side pretends to want it, but somehow it never happens. And the ACA insures health care costs will never go down. Opposing it is racist because it passed when Obama was president.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
The most “effective” drug is a maintenance drug for a disease with no cure.
It’s usually not wise for a parasite to kill the host, excepting when there are a lot of hosts.
astroboy
astroboy
3 years ago
In all seriousness, screw it. Default on the whole damn debt. There is no way 31 trillion can be repaid anyway. Collapse the world economy and get the bad blood out and start with a currency that isn’t Monopoly money. If the half wit government can’t borrow money anymore then that means it will have to show some responsibility. Better to have higher taxes because of that than higher taxes to finance the forever debt.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
It will happen over time. The FED will hold the bulk of treasuries and they’ll give their interest profits back to the government.
bobcalderone
bobcalderone
3 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
Collapse the world economy? That’s your solution? Stop thinking like a teenager with no concern for consequences. There’s a deal to be made here, and the adults better hurry up and get it done.
astroboy
astroboy
3 years ago
Reply to  bobcalderone
My feeling is that there is no deal. Just kicking the can farther down the road, it all implodes in the end. Better now than later, better in 2008 than now. I’m not saying it’s a great thing. I’d rather it happened now when I can still work and earn a paycheck of some sort, rather than 10-20 years from now when my arthritis will have me too crippled to do that.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Kevin’s Kooky Kaukus is gonna Thelma and Louise us right off that cliff.
Based Chad
Based Chad
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
You like your tax dollars spent buying EBT cigarettes and beer? Don’t say it doesn’t happen because I’ve worked in a liquor store that takes EBT.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Based Chad
Beer and cigarettes aren’t going to slow down jack, and you know it. This is performative cruelty, and you ‘followers of Jesus’ lap it up.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Based Chad
Don’t worry about Zardoz. He’s a European liberal masquerading as an American online troll.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Aww, I feel all fancy now!
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Considering the parabolic nature of the national debt, the cliff is already in the rear view mirror.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
And we just might be standing on empty airspace held up solely by inertia.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
I hate both parties. I agree that the student debt forgiveness needs to be abolished. it’s completely unfair and favors people who make the most money. Ironically, it’s the opposite of equity. As usual, Democrats do the opposite of what they preach.
Spending money on oil and gas is pointless. EV adoption is going to happen a lot faster than people think. There will be an oil glut in a few years. And solar and batteries get better every year and cost less. I think they’re already cheaper than conventional power plants per kwh. And the gap will only get bigger. That’s clearly the way we add electricity supply in the future.
I think subsidies won’t be needed in a couple of years to get people to switch to clean energy, so fading the subsides sooner is a good idea.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
I like any party as long as it has good food and drink and it’s big enough that I can’t be held responsible for any of the expenses.
Sounds like the District of Columbia, State capitals, and very big cities.
bobcalderone
bobcalderone
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
The only way EV adoption will happen fast is if the feds ban the sale of ICE cars after 2035, like California is doing.
I’m shopping for new cars, and I won’t buy an EV (range anxiety!). I know that’s just anecdotal evidence, but I can’t be the only one who thinks this way.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  bobcalderone
Actually I might not buy an EV very soon because I am sick and tired of the Government continually trying to pound their crap down my throat.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  bobcalderone
It’s not just range anxiety when new. Many EV batteries are guaranteed to 70% of new battery capacity at 8 years or 100k miles, whichever comes first. If you have an EV that in the very best, optimum conditions achieved say 300 miles per charge (not correct anyway since you don’t want to bleed an EV battery to empty), you will only be getting 210 miles of range and that number will be on a steep decline as the battery ages further. Then there is the lost time waiting for the car to charge if you take it on any longer trips.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
If the battery capacity drops below 70%, they’ll replace it for free. That’s a far cry from batteries only having 70% capacity after 8 years. Most EVs lose < 10% capacity after 100,000 miles.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  bobcalderone
In a few years, you won’t have a choice. Can manufacturers won’t be rolling out any new gas car models. Everything will be electric. Not because of US government mandates. It will be because it will cost a lot less to only build EVs.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
3 years ago
Impose tougher work requirements for recipients of food stamps and other government aid.”
On the surface, this doesn’t sound like a big requirement but it begs a serious question. Why is social security indexed to inflation and non-productive people given generous benefits that adjust annually to inflation but minimum wage is not indexed to inflation?
Tougher work requirements? Like what? Many people that work at retail or restaurants don’t get paid enough so they end up on SNAP and other welfare so how will “tougher” fix that? Most people on SNAP are already on two or three jobs to make ends meet meanwhile lazy boomers lounge around barking at everyone that ‘no one wants to work anymore’ which is absurd.
The only way to fix this is reduce social security, remove COLA and index minimum wage to inflation. There, with one sentence I fixed 50 years of future misery.
That medicare chart is interesting as it shows huge growth and we still have 40 more million people to add to it in 2030.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
People who work should not be eligible for SNAP. If you don’t make enough to cover your costs, then reduce your costs or find something that pays more money.
I think that schools should do regular field trips to various workplaces to show kids what their future potentially holds. Take/introduce them to the 7-11, supermarket, nail salon and various other “service” job places wher epeople are relegated to low paid jobs. Then point out that the majority of those working jobs like cashier, car wash, janitor, etc, most likely didn’t pay attention in school.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
If you don’t make enough to cover your costs, then reduce your costs or find something that pays more money.
That happens every day…it’s called crime. If Jack doesn’t have enough money for that nice Mercedes Benz he’ll carjack you and you may die in the process. This is how much of the world actually functions, people in America and other ‘developed’ nations will be in for a rude surprise when civility ends here..think the “detroitization of america” coming to a neighborhood near you soon!
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Allow open carry and defense of property as justification to shoot and Jack will think twice before he steals the Benz.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Consequences really aren’t something these folks ponder… but it would evict some from the gene pool.
astroboy
astroboy
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
I did medical research, long story short, I developed a test tell if a certain type of brain surgery for a birth defect would do any good. Surgery has a 1-2% mortality so that was a big deal. For telling neurosurgeons whether to cut a kid’s brain open or not I was paid such a low salary that my wife and I and two toddlers were on WIC: wives, infants, and children. Eggs, rice, cheese. We were really glad to have the free food, I can tell you that. Eventually I was offered a permanent position with the hospital at $4K less than what I was making. I pointed out the WIC situation and explained there was no way we could survive on such a salary. Heads of radiology and neurosurgery asked “can’t you take out student loans?” I replied, politely in fact, that 1) Since I wasn’t a student I couldn’t get student loans, and 2) I couldn’t see the logic of having a job where I had to borrow money to survive, and 3) I was insulted. I was working two jobs anyway, kept the second one a secret since I was sure they’d have fired me on the basis that meant I wasn’t a team player.
So, in the end I walked and the babies died. Not a damn thing I could do about it. They did try to replace me with a cheap H1B import, that didn’t work.
Anyway, I guess I agree with “If you don’t make enough to cover your costs, then reduce your costs or find something that pays more money” but I don’t think it’s an optimal solution in all cases.
hmk
hmk
3 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
If we had national healthcare part of your situation would have been fixed. I think the workforce would expand if we had universal healthcare. Yes there are problems but less that what we have now. Our system is FUBB and the health insurance industry is basically a license for extortion. We pay double the industrialized world average in per capita healthcare costs and have the worst health. A national debate based on actual facts for and against should be undertaken and voted on.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  hmk
Comments like this say a lot about the shocking state of US public education. Let’s do to healthcare, what had been done to education. The first thing that disappeared was critical thinking. After that it was all down hill, as reflected in your comment.
Lesson 1.
More government does NOT make things better. The fact is, and not taught at school for obvious reasons: improvements and increased efficiency occur because of competition, not gov’t mandates.
BTW, the ‘old’ VA is an example of what to expect if the government takes over healthcare. It is marginally better now because there is limited competition with the private sector.
hmk
hmk
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I haven’t heard anyone complaing about medicare, which is universal healthcare for all those over 65. Its admin costs are less than 5% vs the 30% overhead of private insurances companies. I wonder where the difference goes?
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  hmk
Many MD’s complain about Medicare regularly because they are blocked from overcharging patients for medical care.
hmk
hmk
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
They don’t have to accept medicare and most of the reimbursement rates for medicare are close to what private insureres pay and sometimes more.
hmk
hmk
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Also, any stat you want to compare our system with any other industrialized countrys universal health care we lose. So what does that say about your education? Many times facts don’t matter when an uneducated persons formulates any opinion.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  hmk
People are equally uneducated everywhere.
What our system says is the power of the stakeholders, lobbyists along with the bought and paid for politicians to choose what best lines their own pockets.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  astroboy
Ar-15 Jesus wants you to just go die. In the rain.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
Where are you getting the data that shows most SNAP recipients have 2+ jobs?
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
It’s in Mike’s pillow with the election fraud evidence and hunter’s laptop.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
For starters there should be no minimum wage. Don’t like what you are paid, work harder in school. Don’t have kids. Get rid of the fancy phones, cable etc. Buy at discount stores.
Get rid of SNAP cards. Replace it with ration cards for specific healthy foods. No twinkies, potato chips, coke….
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
If you would just help us find the lazy boomers we can kill them and won’t have to bother the good boomer anymore.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
ABOLISH THE DEBT CEILING!
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Jojo
Great idea. Pay back the debt first by a national VAT over 20-30 years. Then, balanced budgets from then on.
Jojo
Jojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Does this VAT go away after paying down the debt?
jivefive98
jivefive98
3 years ago
Since most Treasuries are owned by rich people, lets default! What would the Kochs do with themselves without any money?
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  jivefive98
Most treasuries are owned by pension funds and 401ks of the middle class.
The rich people just don’t have enough money on their own to have 24 trillion dollars worth of treasuries (you’d need 24,000 billionaires to each own 1 billion in treasuries). Plus most rich people have the bulk of their money in real estate or owning productive assets like stocks or companies outright.
MPO45v2
MPO45v2
3 years ago
Reply to  jivefive98
Foreign nations hold a good deal of US Treasuries and i commented that the natural evolution and conclusion of de-globalization will be to default on those obligations just like most nations around the world have been doing for centuries.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
After a default on the national debt, who will lend money?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
The stupid p̶a̶t̶r̶i̶o̶t̶s̶ citizens. You can’t fix stupid.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45v2
You might want to list those ‘most nations’ who have defaulted, and when. It’s an eye-opener.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  jivefive98
They’d still have money, and they’d use it to buy your foreclosed house.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
“Draconian cuts” is henceforth a Democrat talking point, but what exactly is a ‘draconian cut’?
Those Ancient Greeks are to blame, specifically Draco (aka Drakon) in the 7th century BC. He was the FIRST LEGISLATOR in Athens to come up with a constitution and written laws (not oral laws) enforced by the court. Surely as drastic as the Code of Hammurabi, stealing a cabbage could result in the death penalty–back then, cabbage theft was a big issue given its role in coleslaw.
Instead of draconian budget cuts, draconian punishments for politicians who lie, cheat, abuse their power, and steal are entirely appropriate. Forget prison. Off with their genitalia for the first offense. Off with their heads for the second offense.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Finally caught you in an error Captain.
It wasn’t coleslaw.
It was sauerkraut and kimchi depending on Eastern or Western Greece.
But all is forgiven.
For myself, I would treat a first offense the same as a second offense.
Not a problem as there seems to be an infinite supply of wealthy folks trying to become politicians.
babelthuap
babelthuap
3 years ago
Do ponzi schemes normally have this much infighting at the top? Pretty sure it’s unique to ours.
Mjs357
Mjs357
3 years ago
Caught the lies published by MSM RE the “D” people were not including tax hikes as part of the negotiations. It’s the main issue IMHO. Tax the rich, pay fair share, spread yo’ wealth, blah blah.
My bet is still the use of the 14th Amend.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Mjs357
What exactly is a fair share? The rich already pay a disproportionately high share of total taxes.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Yet somehow manage to get disproportional richer than everyone else, year after year. Tis a mystery….
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
A fair share is a share that is bigger than the share that I have.
Avery
Avery
3 years ago
Thank God at least the 21st Amendment is in force.
randocalrissian
randocalrissian
3 years ago
The left will get to see K-Mac undressing himself in public, once he is instructed to do so by Joe Biden.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
3 years ago
Dysfuntional, KlownWorld “government”.

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