Hurry, hurry, step right up, tax credits expire September 30.
Has There Ever Been a Better Time to Buy an EV?
The Wall Street Journal asks Has There Ever Been a Better Time to Buy an EV?
Not even bargain-basement deals are enough to entice U.S. drivers to go all-in on electric vehicles.
A Hyundai dealership in New Jersey is hyping a $169-a-month lease on its Ioniq 6 sedan, which carries a sticker price of about $38,000, making it far less expensive than a comparably priced lease on its gasoline-burning models.
Kia will lease its small Niro EV SUV for as little as $129 a month.
And a GMC dealership in Indiana touts the Hummer EV—with a $100,000 sticker price—for a monthly lease payment of $650, similar to the monthly payment for a gas-powered car that costs half as much to buy.
Even as automakers pile on the financial incentives to entice buyers, EV sales are falling. In June they were lower by 6.2%, the third straight monthly decline for battery-powered cars, according to estimates from Motor Intelligence, an industry-research firm. Tesla, which accounts for roughly half the EV market in the U.S., said last week that its global sales dropped 13.5% during the second quarter.
The plunge comes despite EV makers spending record amounts on customer discounts and incentives. Meanwhile, Republican lawmakers are phasing out the $7,500 EV tax credit that has been in place for years to help boost sales.
Why are so many American drivers hesitant? “It’s [driving] range, it’s cost and it’s charging infrastructure,” said Mark Barrott, automotive lead at consulting firm Plante Moran. “They’ve always been the big three reasons.”
The EV tax credits targeted by Republicans have been a key driver of electric-car sales, particularly among less-affluent buyers. For new cars, the credit amounts to as much as $7,500 off the price, while used-car costs can be cut by up to $4,000. President Trump’s “big, beautiful bill” puts an end to those credits as of Sept. 30.
The WSJ never answered the question. But I will.
If you are not concerned about driving range, insurance costs, repair costs, and charging infrastructure, then now may be the time to consider an EV.
But one also needs to factor in whether or not it’s smart to buy a new car at all, of any kind.
How stable is your job? Do you have a big cash cushion if you lose your job?
How reliable is your existing car? Cn you afford the payment?
A $7,500 tax credit will not make a car affordable. And if you need to stretch payments out to 5 years, to make it affordable, then it’s not affordable. My advice, pay cash.
If you can’t afford it, then it’s terrible time to buy anything, but especially big ticket items.
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Tesla is struggling everywhere. Expect things to get worse.
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If you lose a job, it is increasingly difficult to find one.
Cost is the only reason I haven’t purchased an electric car. If we can build cars with the swappable battery like China is already doing, uptake will increase. Cordless tools were slow to be adopted initially because the batteries didn’t last long enough but today cordless tools have replaced most corded tools on job sites. It seems inevitable that we will eventually adopt electric cars. The self driving feature will bring a lot of senior citizens who still want independence but can no longer drive with confidence.
The long term effect of Trumps policies and the anti EV rhetoric is that the U.S. will fall even further behind in the development of EV’s. Our auto industry will become globally uncompetitive and our workers and those in the supply chain will also lose their jobs..
Meanwhile, China and Europe are installing the needed charging infrastructure to support the future of fuel efficient transportation.
Production from the Permian Basin is peaking just as our president makes us more dependent on oil.
Who does Trump work for?
Oh! That’s right, big oil and nations that give him airplanes… Grifter in chief!
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If we had affordable and high quality EVs like China seems to make, that would definitely change things. The cost and increased insurance keep a lot of people away.
The US auto manufacturers have never been know for high quality work. Any quality improvements that have been achieved are solely due to increased automation.
Affordability of anything is based on cost of manufacture, distribution and sales. The labor rates in the US (primarily due to unions) for virtually everything are far too high relative to other countries, which makes all of our our UNAFFORDABLE!
Only replacing humans with automation will bring down costs.
Teslas have gotten pretty inexpensive lately!
They need a facelift desperately and better batteries if they are going to make any comeback. Sure are a lot of used ones for sale.
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It’s too bad really. My 2020 Chevy Bolt is the best driving experience I have ever had. I bought it for $18k with 16,000 miles on the odometer so it was super affordable as well. I hate the idea of moving back to a gas engine, and even renting a gas engine car now feels disappointing, with the slow acceleration, annoying droning engine sound, dealing with gas stations etc.
I saved a lot of money by buying cheap used cars advertised in the paper. I’d drive them for a few years and re-sell them through a newspaper ad. I rode my bike to work and walked to the store. I know that’s a lot of trouble for most Americans, but I retired at 49.
I fondly recall newspaper ads, they were useful.
Then again, I fondly remember the old newspapers.
I understand this is an economic based blog, but still surprised that not one comment addresses the fact that EVs don’t cause the same air pollution. There is actually an economic cost to asthma and all the affiliated illnesses. And, increased tourism as cities clean up. In a recent visit to NYC, I saw the benefits of the congestion tax – fewer cars, better air, less honking…If we end up having more EVs, think of how much quieter and cleaner our cities will be.
Libertarians ignore climate concerns because it basically renders their entire philosophy untenable.
Or it could be that you’re in a cult, Phil. I think B is the correct answer.
“EVs don’t cause the same air pollution.”
Again, is this statement based on evidence or just sheer conjecture?
OK, so maybe EV’s don’t cause the *same* pollution (i.e. ICE emissions) but they do contribute to particulate pollution. Due to their increased weight and their powerful torque/acceleration, which causes their tires to wear down much faster than those of ICE cars, they release microplastics and other harmful chemicals into the environment (google “ev tire particulate pollution”).
“If we end up having more EVs, think of how much quieter and cleaner our cities will be.”
Quieter? Yes. Cleaner? Maybe. Maybe not.
A something like 20% difference in tire longevity hardly offsets the hundreds of tanks of gas an ICE will go through in the same period as a single set of tires. And regenerative braking means little use of brake pads…
“A something like 20% difference in tire longevity hardly offsets the hundreds of tanks of gas an ICE will go through in the same period as a single set of tires.”
Again, is this statement based on evidence or just sheer conjecture?
Exactly how much additional particulate pollution does that “like 20% difference in tire longevity” create (assuming 20% is correct–I’ve heard stories of EVs getting only 10-15k miles on a set of tires)? And how much particulate pollution does the “hundreds of tanks of gas an ICE will go through in the same period” create (again, assuming an ICE will go through hundreds of tanks in the same period)?
Absent those numbers, said statement is not based on evidence but conjecture.
That’s funny! My 911 Turbo S gets 5-7,000 miles out of a set of rears and 10-12,000 out of the fronts.
You guys gotta get better toys!
NYC + EVs = Mayberry RFD. What about all the emergency vehicles wailing in the middle of the night? That’s what woke me up in my NYC hotel.
This Is Why High-End Electric Cars Are Failing
There’s a simple reason why high-end EVs have failed to spark the imaginations of auto buyers. To remedy this, manufacturers need to revisit the days of the Model T.
https://www.wired.com/story/this-is-why-high-end-electric-cars-are-failing/
Mostly I see it only as competition for market share. Nothing is absolute. Almost every new industry is subsidized in our capitalistic system. Now, I guess we subsidize differently. Our perverted system subsidizes and takes from the same industries. It isn’t fair. It’s never been fair. It will probably never be fair. Voting does not make it fair. Over fixing is our problem, imo. We are going to fix this shit, right? It’s the same shit over and over, I try not to fight it so hard. I can’t fix it anyway!
On top of our subsidies and takings, you have all the other governments taking and subsidizing. Not one bit of that shit is fair either. I don’t expect fairness. It’s in the eye of the beholder anyway. Ultimately, it’s just about what somebody wants!
It’s pointless, my neighbors and associates at work are no longer impressed by electric cars.
At least in the US, there was always going to be a near-term ceiling.
Jaguar sales plummeted. BEA Eurofighter Typhoon sales plummeted. The UK and
Canada lost their high tech aircraft industries. The British gov ordered F35As and F35Bs. BEA will stop Typhoon production line. The French Rafale sales are falling.
I wonder that the Chinese J-10 sales are doing?
Probably opposite the Typhoon & Rafale.
EV’s make no sense right now with Solid State batteries coming to market, (starting in 2026).
This is what more educated buyers have been waiting for, and its adoption in the EV and myriads of other battery powered devices will drive early EV’s prices down. I expect Teslas to be unsellable in some markets where Musks Trump disaster is most offensive and unacceptable. Think Europe (especially Germany), China and ~~~ 3/4’s of America is fed up with Musks sycophantic antics.
To me the EV world is within the VW groups grasp through its wholly owned subsidiary PowerCo.
The future of battery technology for many lines of product also will see another step change forward.
We live in an age of fantastic technology advances.
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QS has got to their SSBs to market in the ball park of CATL, IMHO.
QS outperforms CATL by a decent margin. If you are referring to cost? That can only go down from here as scale and throughput improve with the process. The 25x improvement in production announced two weeks ago has me expecting that a few new licenses may be announced. Mercedes is a big target with their large fleet of small trucks.
I’ve got 225K miles on my present vehicle, drive 7K year, and am going to inherit a low mileage car in the next two years. It makes more sense for me to keep repairing the car I have.
I have similar mileage on my Toyota Tundra. I will drive it like I have driven all my previous vehicles; until it goes to the junkyard because it can’t be fixed anymore.
I am not interested in an oversized golf cart and I will never buy one.
Indeed. the payoff is to keep driving what you have rather than taking on more debt, depreciation and increases in licensing and insuring a new vehicle. And it’s not close.
I would be down for a hybrid. But i take care of my vehicles and drive them 300000 miles. I have an 08 truck with 145000 and an inherited 2016 rav with 50000. Think im set for a while. I like cheap taxes insurance and no payment. I think as autos and everything else gets more expensive people are gonna start thinking more like me.
Also you have to think of people situation. If your a renter in an house or apt you prob dont have a way to set up the infrastructure.
They also wont work very well in say wyoming due to winters and the shear distance to get from city to city.
Exonomic datapoint: organic milk at Walmart is now $9. A couple of weeks ago it was $6.
Run for your lives!
The “tethered to my house” life does not appeal to me, but I am still open to an EV being my second vehicle, someday. Or at least I WOULD be open to the idea IF the prices made sense. They need to cost exactly what a comparable ICE vehicle costs, at most. I don’t care about the amortized fuel savings, I don’t want to justify the markup I paid by calculating when my break-even year arrives every day in my mind. If China can pump out 11K EV’s, then 45K for one here makes absolutely no sense. Buyers are speaking and prices are 30% too high across the board.
“I don’t care about the amoritized fuel savings”
Got it. You either don’t understand basic economics or you want to use/waste your (and your heirs’) money out of ‘principle’ – which is your right
Why are you even visiting an economics blog if you are so straightforward you don’t recognize or care to learn about economic theory/sense?
It is out of stubborn principle. I don’t want to overpay for a vehicle up front on the hopes that my usage will, several YEARS into the future, make the extra investment worthwhile. For real estate, I’ll gladly play the amortization game and often do tell people that the extra money spent today will work wonders over the decades, but for a semi-disposable vehicle that may or not be in my long term future? The idea offends me. Even though yes, of course the math makes sense in the long run…so long as certain conditions are met, and that’s the problem, I don’t want to feel enslaved to meeting any conditions, even if they are easy and predictable goals to meet. My brother bought a Tesla and thanks to collapsing prices is so far underwater that his “calculated savings” on fuel will probably never, ever make him break even. Thankfully he loves it for other reasons, but the math equation is certainly not good.
I understand the dilemma on owning an EV. They are not for everyone. Anyone that calls a vehicle an asset (even a depreciating one) is looking at them backwards. They are almost necessary tools in our current world, but should almost never be viewed as an asset (unless it is some collectible).
I owned several rather high end Euro luxury vehicles over the last decade. They were not cheap to own and maintain. Worth it to me at the time? Sure. They are not for everyone, though. I enjoyed the driving them and ownership experiences.
Your bro-in-law will never “break even,” but neither will anyone owning a vehicle. Just like stocks or real estate, you only ever lose money if you sell at the wrong time. Until it’s sold, you haven’t lost anything. Vehicles are not made or used to break even, you will always be in the hole on owning any of them. It just depends on how much in the hole you are willing to be and what you are willing to live with/without in the meantime. Everyone’s tolerance level is different. If you want to play the millionaire next door game, by all means drive the 20+ year old Camry. I have been there and played that game. If you want less stress of fixing a car, a newer vehicle will be where it’s at. It all comes down to preferences and priorities. While I am not keen on “wasting” money, we can’t take it with us, and I’d like to at least have some enjoyment in this life. Where we draw that line is up to each of us individually, no judgements here.
From a numbers perspective, between the $7500 EV credit and the $15,000 or so in fuel savings over the next 8 years of ownership, the price of the EV is really not much more than any other used or even new ICE vehicle I’d own anyways.
Just thought I’d chime in.
You make an excellent point. If EVs are not for everyone, they’re not for everyone. These days they’re not considered a luxury item. They are designed for an average consumer, at least on principle. Therefore, if they’re not for everyone, they don’t make sense. As Mish points out, between cost and lack of infrastructure and soon lack of subsidies, they do not make sense for Mass consumer. Ergo there is no EV market at this time.
Eh, if they are designed for the average consumer they would be priced accordingly. As it sits, they are prices at a premium, and more often than not I hear people that don’t own them say, “ If they were cheaper I’d buy one.” Perhaps with time they will be priced closer to what the average consumer can justify or afford. Depending on the model, they have come down considerably compared to what they used to cost as a whole.
To say there is no EV market at this time is fairly short sighted. Do you know the number of EV’s sold this year or last? It is not a small number. Considering the technology has only gone mainstream stream in the last 10-15 years, I don’t think they are doing too poorly.
Saying they don’t make sense for the mass consumer doesn’t mean they don’t make sense at all. Apparently they made sense to the people that bought them, including me. Upper end Euro luxury vehicles don’t make sense to the mass consumer, yet people still buy them, and the return loyalty rate of, say, Range Rover buyers, was higher than most all other brands last year. They are priced high and most cannot afford them, but to a large enough population to keep the brand running, they are worth it. You just could not possibly justify purchasing that, or a Ferrari, or Ducati, to the general population, any more than you could an EV. They have their share of market and they don’t need to cater to the mass of the population to stay afloat.
Yeah if no one wants them why don’t we remove all BYD tariffs and see what happens?
I’m afraid that is you who don’t understand economics. What’s the interest of financing that mark up and its NPV?
There are no “amoritized fuel savings”. Pumping electricity into your EV cost the same as pumping gas into your ICE vehicle, sometimes it costs more.
TPTB have no interest in truly lowering your costs. I saw Chinese EVs all over Europe. Our government is to blame..
“Woocoodanoode?”
Looks like there may be great deals available on Jaguars!
It never works that way anymore, with anything. They will first send the cars to Kazakhstan, then to the bottom of the sea before offering them at a fire sale price.
“They’re lemons!”
Jaguar – the car for neuts.
This article is disingenuous, as it fails to mention Jaguar has been ramping down production on all models to get ready for the ramp up of EV production it plans to begin selling at some point.
In other words, you can’t sell what you’re not making.
That’s a DUMB comment. Companies don’t shut down manufacturing and sales to make a transition to a new product line.
How would they pay their bills, their employees salaries/benefits, their debt if they are not bringing in new revenue via sales?
Each political party’s wrenching cancellations of the other’s energy policies, have helped US automakers (whatever their other issues already were) toward obsolescence. I wonder why the US industry doesn’t have better lobbyists, or at least ones which could avoid a huge price level shakedown of strained consumers. China seems to be globalizing EVs. With a reasonable $12k budget EV, my patriotism would be tested, in that regard: I would be itching to buy one, all cash, this afternoon. As it is, I own a fairly old Japanese make that is an incredible, reliable car.
A “terrible time to buy anything,” just in time for this week’s trade deals. If we don’t have an unprecedented cascade of those, I think we revert back to ‘Liberation Day” tariffs, or the like? This time I have a hedge in place.
I’m open to an EV … although I believe it might be a bit like my first PC (an IBM PC Jr). I am concerned about the weight of the battery pack and the maintenance (most in-town mechanics probably don’t do EVs and I read a story where an Ioniq had a fender bender that cracked the battery case and they had to total the car as the repair was in the $55,000 range. I am converting to electric in other areas (chain saw, mower, leaf blower, weed wacker, …). They are not as powerful as gas, but seem to work well and I suck at maintaining little gas engines.
The new Slate truck that Amazon (or another Bezos company) is introducing is starting to look attractive. I’d love it if Tesla would put out a motorcycle … but I understand why they don’t. I believe that there will be a temporary speed bump in wasteful electric infrastructure spending (not that the infrastructure is a bad idea, but if the billions Biden threw at it and the handful of accomplishments is any indicator … there are more sheisters in the field than capable companies).
So I understand why folks are hesitant … and I share some of the concerns. I’m hoping my 2013 car lasts about 5 to 8 more years … and I’m hoping things have moved on nicely since then.
https://zeromotorcycles.com
Be sitting down when you get to the price.
Zero is not here and I think the tech is one generation short of being ideal. We shall see
Technology is moving fast. Solid state batteries will start commercial production in 2026 in three of PowerCo’s factories that are under construction. One in Germany is almost complete and another in Spain is well underway and one in Canada is just starting construction.
When fully built out they will have capacity for 2 million EV’s or other battery powered tools.
The future is nearly here!
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This sounds great. This says if I buy new in 5 years (hopefully) when my car is near death … I should be on 2nd generation of the new tech which should be more stable. Hopefully we are smart about extra needs on the grid and we focus on nuclear.
My wife and I owned a Plug-in Hybrid with 56,000 miles on it and the Drive battery went and the cost to replace it: $11,000.
We dumped it and bought a gas engined Subaru.
Shoot I’ve had luxo barges that the engines easily cost that and quite a bit more, not to mention you still have a transmission and other major components that can go. Can you go cheaper? Sure, depending on what you are willing to live with. Nothing wrong with a cheaper vehicle, I have driven plenty over the years. Major parts break in any vehicle and the new OEM stuff costs a pretty penny, while the used or aftermarket parts can save you some change. You can’t skirt around major pricey stuff going south. I had a Subaru 20+ years ago (bought it almost brand new because it was “reliable”) just out of warranty eat a turbo and blow a transmission. You can’t plan on every car being reliable. I’ve had known unreliable Euro luxury cars outlast that Subaru by a long shot. Pick your poison
I agree. We do not trust Subaru YET. I DO Trust Infinity’s and Lexus autos (owned both) as they are ENDLESSLY RELIABLE. I owned two Toyota’s (V6 Truck and a Supra) and BOTH ran over 100,000 without a single repair. My 1984 Honda Accord (4-banger, 5-speed) ran over 56,000 miles with NO repairs. I traded it in for a Volvo and that car was NOT reliable. I moved back to Japanese. I bought one Mercedes and that car was SO expensive for simple maintenance that I dumped it in 18 months and bought another Japanese Car…..I will likely never own another EV in my life as I am OLD and not particularly healthy.
Mike – You go further down most other economic paths but you won’t with EVs. If you haven’t owned an EV, pls don’t comment. Range fear?? How many people drive more than 250 miles every day? (Yes, they work best with a nightly home charging ability.) They take long to charge? (on those infrequent trips where you drive more than 250 miles) – correct but I tell people to start adding up all the bi-weekly 10-15 minute stops to get gas and gas stops will far exceed the occasional roadside EV charge. Virtually no repairs. And, why aren’t the costs associated with asthma etc. being at least partially attributed to gas vehicles?
EVs are not selling in the U.S. because Trump followers would feel disloyal. Trump is anti EVs because he is an old man and petty. Obama liked EVs – and Trump doesn’t want to give Obama the win.
Read the WSJ article and now we are shopping for an additional EV.
We drove to South Dakota and Back in our Plug in Hybrid. We ran 80% of it on the gas engine alone and it had AUTO-SELF CHARGING using the brakes (regenerative braking). If they could build a fuel-sipping Hybrid that auto-regens BETTER than ours did, I would buy it. I loved the QUIET RUNNING around town on only Battery power.
The car also LAUNCHED with its battery motor assist. I could pass cars from 60 to 100MPH (Montana) with half-throttle. The car was FAST! QUIET. Killer stereo, and lots of Cargo room.
Then, the batteries went dead. DONE for now with EV’s.
I am guessing, there was probably some electronic issue. Batteries usually degrade slowly, but not go dead all of a sudden.
One bad cell in the pack will kill the whole battery.
Back on the boat one of the cells in the battery (nominal 250 volt) went out and the electricians had to jumper it out. You can’t do that on a car battery and even less on an EV battery.
As I understand it, Tesla has a sophisticated battery monitoring system, and can replace whole, block or even individual cells, preferably by some professional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HWnRSYCvNI
I won’t go down the political path you brought up, but I planned on bringing range up as a discussion topic.
People talk about range anxiety. My EV is rated at 350-ish miles per charge. Factor in degradation over the years and heat/cool/driving faster than I should, you’ll probably get upper 200’s after a while…we live pretty rural with a lot of highways driving (50 miles each way). We drive more than most people but somehow range anxiety is not a concern here. We don’t drive more than 150 miles per day, and that would be considered a long day. 300 miles at a time are going to be road trip/vacation only, and not very often. There are enough chargers to make trips now. Our last luxury ICE barge would squeak out 500 miles per tank, but you wanted to stop twice as frequently on a road trip anyways because who wants to sit for 6-7 hours straight without stretching or getting out to see something?
We, too, are considering a second EV (truck). After owning this every other ICE vehicle feels completely outdated, slow, and requires too much maintenance.
I had only been in an EV once ever, so I think a lot has to do with misinformation about them (range anxiety, lack of charging stations, etc). I am a very analog, old school vehicle type person but these EV’s have me thoroughly impressed. Fast, efficient, and quiet.
The lack of fumes was one thing my wife noticed immediately. Normally one of us is starting the car while the other loads the trunk with things we may need. She said the first time I was in the driver’s seat and she went back to open the trunk she had a minor irritation come to her head that she would be breathing fumes while she loaded. Of course that didn’t happen with the EV.
And yes, we don’t miss all the stops at the gas station. Just plug in when you get home, takes less time than hanging out at a smelly pump.
Yes, Phil, you are correct.
I own a Tesla. And usually I can travel 1-2 months without ever charging outside my cheap garage charger. So no stops or time whatsoever for filling up or maintenance.
But I recently went on a two-day 800-mile roundtrip business trip in my Tesla. I stopped a total of three times, and less because I needed to charge and more because I wanted/needed a break after driving 2.5-3 hours in one sitting. 15-20 minutes later I was ready for a total of 250+ miles if I wanted to drive that long again.
These cars are game changers for most that would like to try them. And especially if you are a two-car family like most of America.
But whatever, I don’t care generally how others spend their money or time, as long as they don’t complain about things later due to their own choices (like the price or gas or car maintenance).
“EVs are not selling in the U.S. because Trump followers would feel disloyal.”
Jennifer, OMG, please! EV sales have taken a nosedive because:
#1 – They’re expensive & will get more so once the tax incentives go away.
#2 – Musk pissed off his primary consumers.
#3 – They lack nationwide charging infrastructure that’s readily available & affordable.
#4 – They cost more to insure.
#5 – When they do break, they’re very expensive to fix.
#6 – Consumers see hybrids as a better alternative for now.
Don’t get me wrong. I’d love to have one, but I’ll wait several more years until SSBs are readily available & affordable.
Cheers!
EVs are cheaper than ICE now.
EV is simple. Vert simple. Actually mainly composed of battery and mortar.
The expensive things are software, hardware and luxury items.
You can choose plain and cheap one.
I have commented in this a dozen times at least.
If you don’t go anywhere, especially if you own your own home and have a charger, EVs are fine.
But I believe I said that.
“If you are not concerned about driving range, insurance costs, repair costs, and charging infrastructure, then now may be the time to consider an EV.”
If you don’t go anywhere, then great.
But insurance costs and repair costs are higher. Wrecks are easily totals if the battery is suspect.
Might I remind you of what I said on June 30
https://mishtalk.com/economics/ford-ceo-chinas-ev-costs-tech-and-quality-far-superior-to-the-west/
EVs Will Eventually Win
I have correctly mocked the rate at which EVs would take over in the US. And Trump has set the rate of advancement back as I stated in advance may times.
But battery technology will get cheaper. Manufacturing costs will drop, and fewer people will be needed by the manufacturers.
China, not Tesla or the US is leading the way.
Ford’s CEO at least understands the issues.
But Trump’s tariffs inhibit innovation. And Trump’s tariffs on Steel and Aluminum are very counterproductive.
Unions costs are a big issue and they will fight the job losses that are guaranteed once the gasoline engine goes away.
Maybe it would help, Mish, if you more concretely define “few” from your blogpost title.
10% of American new car consumers are currently buying EVs. With a relatively new commercially available product, I would not define that as “few” myself. But maybe you do?
Until very recently, the Tesla Y was the #1 selling car in the WORLD. That one manufacturer and model was also (one of) the biggest seller in the US. Since other US EV manufacturers are currently behind the technological and production efficiency curve of the Tesla, I would not count ‘EV’ sales as “few” when recognizing that Tesla is currently the only US producer realistically mass producing vehicles. But maybe you do?
“EVs will eventually win.”
And China has planned to be the big winner in EVs. As it has in so many areas.
Interesting how the Chinese government keeps picking the right areas to be winners in.
Rare earths. High speed Electric trains. Solar panels. Windmills. Electronics. Batteries. Etc
Well, when the government subsidizes all of these important industries, it’s easier to get ahead.
All the more reason for the US to take stock in this & tun our ship by doing something about it.
The US government has also subsidized our auto industry. Many times. Many ways. With different results.
The key difference here is that China is not so much subsidizing or supporting their auto industry in isolation.
They are planning and promoting an electric future for the entire country. They are moving their country in a direction that improves their security, their competitiveness, their health and their wealth.
From a security point of view, they don’t like being dependent on others for the large amounts of oil, natural gas and coal that they must import. The more self-sufficient they are in energy, the more secure they will be.
The only way to do that is by generating huge amounts of electricity from hydro, solar, wind, and nuclear.
This means the build out and modernization of their national electric grid.
It means becoming the world leader in production and refinement of rare earths, batteries, and electronics.
Building 40,000 miles of high speed electric train track (26,000 already built).
Building a network of charging stations for electric vehicles (3 million per year).
Promoting EVs for personal vehicles and transport vehicles.
And so on.
The result is they are now the world leader in producing almost everything required for an electrical future.
While we aimlessly increase our reliance on fossil fuels. Which I cannot do anything about. Other than take advantage of it when investing
They don’t have to deal with idiotic “Agenda’s” but they also don’t have the “Free Speech” to say anything about it.
We have massive roadblocks to even suggest change. We don’t have EV’s being pushed, because they are told not to do so, by the Unions. Let’s face it, they do control a large portion of the voting block, and with decades of families tied hard to the them.
EV’s require far less skill set and doesn’t even require a HS Diploma to learn how. Show them a few times, and they are off and running, or the machines are… They have spot checks for lot control and shut down lines instantly if an issue arises.
China is told what to produce, how much they will be paid, and how many hours a day they will work. They also have millions awaiting jobs, so no labor shortages there., and massive factories being built to build more, hire more, etc.
China is using the strategy: “A rising tide lifts all boats” and it does, and they are being lifted as a Nation.
America uses Egos, and Power, and Money to lift any boat, by anyone, and with any agenda. We must think we can change there minds once they are locked in, but with Freedom comes choice, and that doesn’t allow this theory to work out very well.
Add in the changing of the Top Dog every 4-8 Years, and His/Her Base being depleted, and momentum is very difficult to obtain. That’s why I think Trump threw everything at once in the pile of wants. Take what He gets now, and fight for more as He gains successes. Never slow down, or you lose momentum, so expect this forceful pushing forward approach to stick around His entire term, and maybe afterwards too, if Vance takes charge IMO!
I’m sorry. What exactly is your point?
My point is that China has a plan to become energy independent through massive production of electricity, and electrifying everything possible in their country. And they are well on their way to achieving that plan.
And we have no plan to compete with them.
Your point on China, is my point on the U.S. Trump is doing the same thing here, but has massive push back from the current takers, on Both Sides. In other words Politics is still crushing the will of the People, mid-Terms could change that perhaps?
“EVs are not selling in the U.S. because Trump followers would feel disloyal.”
Is this statement based on evidence (e.g. polling data, surveys, etc.) or just sheer conjecture?
If. Al Gore would have won 25 years ago we’d all be dead from climate change by now.
The volt was designed around the idea at the time that 80% of people don’t exceed 36 miles a day and their battery reflected that. And you only have to run out of electricity once to never let that happen again. A million things could happen to squeeze your battery. Heater and a/c use, unexpected trip, last person didn’t fully charge etc.
Gee, the same things would leave you stranded in an ICE vehicle: A/C use (you realize A/C usage in an ICE is terribly inefficient?), unexpected trip, last person didn’t refuel, etc. You only need to run out of fuel once to never let that happen again.
This has nothing to do with EV’s and everything to do with the nut behind the wheel.
Your arguments are ridiculous and your lack of EV knowledge, or really any vehicle knowledge, is embarrassing.
I’m an old guy. I owned and drove so many kind of ICE cars for many decades. I’m now driving EV and love it. I bought it over 2 years ago and now technology is more advanced. I’ll never look back to ICE. Its obsolete.
The most disappointing time was when I left the car in garage for servicing yearly or so. They will tell you I have to replace this and that. I don’t know anything about these what they told me. I thought the car was perfectly normal and now I had to change the parts. I don’t know it was recommended or not. With EV, these problems are much less.
Bye ICE.
What I want is the Chevy Volt back.
Back in the day, I read about people doing mixed, everyday driving of 1,000 miles on a single tank of 8.9 gallons with a car that had zero range anxiety. The later models only had an 18.4 KWh battery that could easily be fully charged over about 10 hours with a 20 AMP circuit sitting in my garage. No electrician required. My commute is 46 miles round trip. Hell, I might only buy 8-10 tanks of gas all year.
18.4 x $0.09 would be a $1.66 for me to drive round trip to work & back or about $33 per month.
Talk about a petrol killer.
The volt or a reasonable facsimile will be re-offered someday. Once enough dedicated evs with heat on maximum run out of battery and the person sits for a day waiting for a tow.
There are many plug-in hybrids available that seamlessly switch between battery and gas engine as needed. Toyota RAV 4, Hyundai Tucson etc. Since most trips taken are less than 20 miles, you rarely need the gas engine. But it’s there when needed.
One BYD PHEV has a 1200 mile range (electric plus gas).
Do you believe everything the Chinese govt tells you ? 🤨
Read it in Top Gear Magazine.
And by the way where are all these ubiquitous Class 8 electric trucks that are supposed to replace all Freightliners and other diesel rigs on the nation’s interstates by 2035?
I have an older car that needs a new engine. I’m opting for the older car and a $7000 investment for the engine. It’s not electric or connected to the web, as new cars are, and it’s paid for. The insurance is cheaper, as are the yearly taxes. Plus, I don’t drive as much as I used to, so why have a $50k depreciating investment or a $700 monthly payment? I’ve grown out of bragging rights.
Yeah, there are definitely cheaper alternatives. They are not for everyone. We have driven used cars for decades, I just got tired of the maintenance on them, especially living rural and the possibility of breaking down rural. When we lived in town, used higher mileage vehicles made more sense. Whether or not it makes sense can depend on the region you live in (prop taxes, registration, electric costs, etc) and how many miles you drive per year. If you can make cheaper alternatives work, more power to ya!
Maybe one of you could add an initial to differentiate between the two of you? Sheese.
I just grabbed a nice new PU with 4WD (Not AWD) and a Gas Engine, so I’m good for the next 15 years.
They make perfect sense if you have a place to charge at home and have another vehicle for road trips/towing/etc. Perfect in town/2nd cars. We love ours and darn it’s nice not to have to sit around waiting for someone to do an oil change or what have you.
If you mostly drive big highway miles and just have one vehicle, maybe maybe not.
Give it another decade and it’ll probably all be (Chinese) EVs. They keep getting better and cheaper.
We have one now as our primary vehicle, and we live rural with primarily highway driving We are looking at replacing the work truck with one now, too. Our electric charging stations in the closest city are not near what they should be compared to other cities, but with charging at home we have not found the vehicle to be limiting at all.
After driving this, any other ICE car feels like it is from the stone age.
That is so correct, your comments!
All the usual parts on even an electric vehicle will have to be replaced. Tires, brakes, battery, radiator flush etc etc etc . You don’t save any money with ev.
I am assuming you have never owned an EV, and if you have, don’t really know what you are talking about.
Some EV’s, like the Leaf, use air cooling. Others, like Tesla, say their coolant is good for the life of the vehicle. Not sure where you are getting regular coolant change info from?
Tires are a given on any vehicle.
Brakes last much much longer on an EV due to regenerative braking. We hardly ever touch the brakes on ours. You should see the insane amount of miles some people rack up on their brake pads. Again, if you don’t drive an EV I understand your lack of knowledge on them, but don’t spread misinformation if you don’t know.
You know the components I’ve had to replace with ICE vehicles over the years? Alternators, starters, water pumps, thermostats, oil changes, transmission fluid changes, spark plugs, timing belts, serpentine belts, complete engines, transmissions, etc. Yes you may need to replace a motor or batter in an EV, but the amount of moving parts to replace pales in comparison.
You do you, keep on keeping on with your ICE, but quit spreading this uneducated stuff about something you clearly don’t know much about.
AAA says EVs have 40-50% lower maintenance fees compared to ICE. No spark plugs, oil changes etc.
The drivetrain of an ICE vehicle has roughly 2000 moving parts. For an EV it’s roughly 20.
New cars are almost maintenance free for the first 8 years or so (unless you buy GM or Ford [lol]). Platinum tipped spark plugs don’t require changing for 100k miles or more. Here in CA, new cars don’t need to go through smog inspection for the first 8 years (after that it is every two years). Basically, change the oil regularly and tires+brakes, depending on how you drive.
It sounds like you are fudging/exaggerating your claims for your own POV
How many modern cars have an 8-year warranty (“to be almost maintenance free”)? Relatively few, and that’s because the ICE manufacturer can not reliably and profitably guarantee that type of performance with that many mechanical parts working in tandem.
Of course, some individual cars last that long with little maintenance issues, but not on average or the manufacturers would cover them for that contingency.
You miss the point while you hold your breath turning red.
I wasn’t talking about warranties. If a car is so reliable that nothing much goes wrong, then a warranty has no real value other than peace-of-mind.
The long warranty for EV’s is due to consumer concern over the battery life declining too quickly and the battery being very expensive (probably more than the value of the car) after 8-10 years.
Companies make 8-10 years warranties for EV batteries because most people won’t keep a car that long and so they have no real exposure to having to replace old batteries that no longer hold a full charge..
Great. But AAA still says EVs cost 40-50% less to maintain than ICE.
Speaking of maintenance and warranties and FORD (FIXED OR REPAIRED DAILY), here is a horror warranty story for your enjoyment:
Another asinine comment.
How many EVs have a radiator? Look at the other comments here from Phil and PapaDave. They know what is actually inside an EV and what it costs to maintain.
Unfortunately, this is a symptom of American common and financial sense. Everyone thinks they know the details. Have you ever kept track of how much you have spent in total for an ICE vehicle over 5-10 years. With a brand new ICE lease, hardly anything because you put that future costs on someone else. But that’s why it also costs so much to lease.
But if you actually keep track of the total costs for an ICE vehicle over time, including garage repair costs and time for taking such ICE vehicles for gas and repairs, it is NOT a small sum. Thus, the reason why more and more financially savvy people (for their own particular situation) are moving to EVs or PHEVs currently – 10% of current sales if Mish is counting
Another EV evangelist who doesn’t understand that people don’t have to have the same priorities as them to be “intelligent”. The ICE versus EV debate has no right answer because they have very different performance characteristics. One has effectively unlimited range (to the point where you barely even have to think about it) and the other one forces you to think about the range issue a lot. There are many, many SMART people who are happy to live with the known and understood drawbacks of ICE vehicles to not deal wit the current drawbacks of EVs. You don’t have to pat yourself on the back so much for being a forward-thinking genius, we get it.
Reading comprehension issues?
I literally wrote about “people (for their own particular situation” in response to Scott’s inaccurate “You don’t save any money with EV”.
Of course, every person has their own needs and priorities. But on average, the long-term cost (with all expenses included) will be cheaper for most people with an EV and decidedly so for someone (most?) with charging at their own home.
I’m agnostic about people’s choices; doesn’t sound like you are. But yes, I do post to correct inaccuracies
We have not planned or adequately prepared for EVs in the US. Unlike other countries.
Sales of EVs/PHEVs are still hitting records in China and Europe.
Of course, it also helps when EV prices are so much lower (particularly in China) than in the US. Too bad we can’t import them tariff free to the US.
It helps when.gas prices are three times the price as in the US as we see in Europe.
Same for most energy prices in Europe, though it varies a lot by country. Consumer electricity prices in Germany are around 4x the US average.
“Too bad we can’t import them tariff free to the US.”
We can say with absolute certainty that BYD will not be selling BEVs in the US during Trump’s final term, unless they somehow agree to make them here in the US. But, I cannot imagine the backlash from GM, Ford & Tesla if somehow the Chinese made this part of their eventual tariff agreement with TACO.
So, let’s just call it a non-starter, for now.
BYD expects to sell 100,000 vehicles in Mexico this year. They are considering building a manufacturing facility there.
They were also planning to sell vehicles in Canada until the Canadian government put 100% tariffs on imported cars from China.
That’s all great info, but again they’re not going to enter the US market for obvious geopolitical / BOOM goes UAW reasons.
I didn’t say they would be sold in the US soon. Just that they are increasing sales in other countries because of their pricing advantage.
And that it was too bad we don’t get the chance to buy them here.
A dedicated electric vehicle with no gasoline-generated electricity backup is a dumb vehicle to buy anyway. What happens when battery goes dead? Chevy volt had battery and gasoline-powered electric supply — best alt fuel vehicle ever. I’m writing this in one as we speak.
Yeah, the hybrid where gas powers a generator is the way to go.
What happens when your fuel tank runs dry? You fill it up. Same principle applies to a battery. Not really sure how this is hard to grasp.🤷♂️
Dedicated electric has no gas tank. When battery is dead you sit for a couple hours recharging if you can find a recharger, after a tow of course.
No kidding, they have batteries you keep charged. You would be doing the same thing if you ran out of gas. Waiting for a tow truck. My charger is at home, much more convenient than having to trek out to a station to refuel. The chance of running out of charge in my EV is much lower than my ICE. I top up the battery every night, I can’t say the same with the ICE.
Electrics are a problem though for those who don’t have the option to charge them up where they live.
My local Safeway has two free chargers that are always filled. I regularly see people hanging about at the public chargers waiting for a top-up (or however many electrons they are purchasing). I guess people can play with their phones while reading (I’d say read a book but very few people read any longer).
I understand that insurance costs are much higher for EV’s as almost any accident results in them totaling the car. What is your experience in this area?
And there is the question of how long the battery lasts and how expensive it might be to replace it. The more you charge a battery, the faster it wears out.
Many EV’s seem to offer a 70%/8-10 year warranty on the battery. A car with a 300 mile manufacturer stated range would have to go down to around 200 miles inside the warranty period to qualify for a battery replacement.
Yes, they are not for everyone. The general consensus is, if you can’t charge at home they are probably not worth it to you.
Insurance is going to highly depend on the region you are in, among other factors (age, type of vehicle, driving record, insurance coverage and company, etc). When we purchased our new Tesla our insurance premium actually went down when we switched it out from our older luxo barge. YMMV
Longevity is not really much different than an ICE engine in the way that the more you use it the more it wears out. I have had ICE drivetrains last a long time, and have major problems right outside of their (rather short) warranty period.
Just like any vehicle, whether you choose to use OEM parts vs aftermarket, and who does the labor, is going to greatly determine your cost of ownership.
EV manufacturers offering 8-10 year warranties on the ‘drivetrain’ of the EV probably tells you the science about the long-term costs of owning an EV; they just aren’t projected to be that high in terms of maintenance.
The insurance on my brand new Tesla Y EV costs $180 more per year than the annual insurance on my 6-year-old Jeep Grand Cherokee (with commensurate lower value) with 60,000 miles on it. The higher insurance cost ‘argument’ is person- and location-specific and should not be a general argument for not buying an EV. Call your own insurance agent to verify this.
There are 180,000 gas stations nationwide to give you a 2 minute fillup as needed. There are fewer than 1000 charging stations, and that will take hours.
I don’t shop at 180,000 gas stations, I only use a handful when I am driving an ICE vehicle depending on where I am at. So having almost 200,000 stations is really meaningless to me in my day to day activities. I also don’t supercharge, I charge at home. I am always topped up because of this, but am almost never on a full tank of fuel in my ICE because I don’t have the convenience of fueling at home.
Superchargers don’t take hours to charge, either. And when I charge at home, I don’t care that it is plugged in charging because I am at home doing other things. No waiting around, it is doing its thing when I am doing mine.
I also don’t know of a single vehicle that takes 2 minutes to navigate into a station, pay for the fuel, fill your tank, and navigate back onto a roadway. You are at least 5-10 minutes. Add that up over the course of a year, it is not a small amount of time if you drive any distance.
I can see you are not up to date or know much about EV’s, so please do your research before spreading false information about the amount of time it takes to charge while out and about.
Another silly and uninformed statement.
Put any address you travel to from your home ever within Google Maps. And then look at the number of Tesla superchargers between home and that destination. And tell me how many times your EV will run out of ‘fuel’ before you travel the 250+ miles to the next Supercharger (if you aren’t fully charging at home).
And supercharging takes minutes, not hours. Where are you finding this ‘info’ you are posting?
But will the charger be working AND available when you need it?
That is why for all intents and purposes, ICE vehicles have unlimited range with effectively zero anxiety/concern. That may not matter to radius-bound city dwellers, but to many, many people, that IS the killer app of ICE vehicles that make the few downsides very worth it. I can’t believe you actually have to make that argument to people.
Gas tank takes 2 minutes to fill. Recharging takes 2 to 8 hours. You gonna sit for that?
I spend less time charging than I do at a gas station. I plug it in when I get home, that’s it. How much time per week/month/year do you hang out at a gas station? A lot more time than I spend plugging in🤣
Who are you kidding? My ICE motorcycle takes me longer than 2 minutes to fill. You running a 2 liter tank in that Accord of yours?🤣
These are asinine comments. With today’s technology, as soon as you get into an EV and input where you’re going, it will let you know how much power you will have left when you get there, and back home. And recommend and route you to any number of EV charging stations to stop at, if you wish.
The number of people running out of electric juice in their EV is the same number of people running out of gas in their ICE vehicle. And that’s limited to the total number of Darwinian morons that still exist in the world today LOL
You can carry a gan of gas to your car. Can you carry a can of electrons?
Don’t forget EV’s problems in the northern winters either.
I don’t know anyone who carries a gas can in their car, do you? The fumes it would let off would be miserable and you’d have to drive with your windows down. When I pick up an extra can of gas for recreational vehicles, I always put it in my truck bed, not inside a vehicle. There is no reasonable way to carry extra fuel unless it is mounted outside the vehicle.
If you are talking about just carrying a can of gas back to your stranded car, well, are you planning on walking to the station or what? Once you run out in either you are stuck either way. There are (towing) companies that offer mobile EV charging solutions, so in essence, yes, one can carry electrons to your stranded place of choice.
I only fill my ICE tank once every few trips to town, and I have never run out of fuel. If I topped up my ICE vehicle every day I would never run out. As stated before, I top up my battery “tank” every day, why would I ever run out of charge? It is always more topped up than my ICE vehicle is.
I wouldn’t park an EV outside in a cold climate, common sense tells me to keep it inside the garage during cold spells. The newer ones have battery preheaters/preconditioners and such to prep the battery for use. They have a lot of tech that assists in cold weather driving. Sure, they won’t last as long as a perfect 65 degree spring day, but how many miles are you driving a day? Our longer days are 150 miles, it will last just fine for day to day use. Superchargers are always an option if you feel the need.
What a silly response.
I’ve been driving ICE vehicles for decades and I’ve never run out of gas ONCE. If that’s your primary reason for not buying an EV, maybe you should go back to the horse and buggy so you can feed your horse for free on the side of the road when it’s ’empty’
You could get the Flinstone option.
I dunno, I never coined myself to be an EV driver. We just purchased our first Tesla off the lot last month, and honestly, the driving experience is so nice we are looking at possibly adding another one to the garage. They are punchy fast, efficient, and quiet. We charge at home and it costs a fraction of what our ICE vehicles cost us. Little to no maintenance and an 8 year warranty. After the tax credit and fuel savings over the next 8 years, we will only have a fraction of the cost of the actual vehicle invested compared to our older luxury barge that required expensive and frequent maintenance.
Oh, and the driving range is stellar on these now. We drive 50 rural miles one way and have plenty of charge.
I think they need to promote them better, really. I had only been in one EV ever, but after test driving these it sold me pretty quickly.
Let us know how heavy use of air conditioner or heater affects your available battery.
AC is not any different than an ICE car and its effect on MPG. It has been blowing in this 95-100 deg weather we’ve had and we are still fine.
I don’t know if I would go back to an ICE vehicle by choice after this. This thing is pretty bomb. I think there is a lot of misinformation and really a lack of information about them out there. That’s why I think the manufacturers need to promote them better, perhaps extended test drives and demo days would help people better understand them.
Heat and ac use a lot of electricity. We just don’t notice since gasoline has so many btus of energy in it we never feel like we have to keep the heat off like dad used to.
If you don’t want an EV, don’t buy one; but don’t spread falsehoods
It is common scientific knowledge EVs are much more efficient than ICE vehicles. Of course, running anything ‘extra’ like A/C or heating uses more electricity or gasoline.
But it’s not like EVs are useless in the winter or summer. I just took a 100-mile trip in my Tesla in 100-degree heat and the computer showed I used an ‘extra’ 1.5% of my electric charge to keep the interior at 65 degrees
I would just prefer a backup fuel source during this transition time. If you get a battery that can provide 1000+ miles per charge, that’s fine. I just don’t think they exist yet, esp in the winter.
Lol do you have an ICE vehicle that would last for 1000 miles? Yeah didn’t think so. You’d better scrap that ICE in your driveway, too🤣
If electricity were superior cars would have run on it for the last 100 years
I don’t even know where to start with this comment🤦
Don’t you think technological advancements, availability of parts and fuel, resources, government subsidizing, monopolies, greed, etc have anything to do with how petrol vehicles have come to be prominent?
Don’t you think it would be just as silly to imagine in 100-200 years that people would be saying the same thing about petrol vehicles in comparison to their (pick your current vehicle choice: hydrogen, fusion, some other technological advancement, etc) vehicles?
I don’t know if you are just dense or uneducated in this area, but your arguments are, quite frankly, ridiculous.
Do you live in a warmerish climate?
PNW, USA. Warmer than where we used to live but still gets single digits in the winter.
That’s good. Hard freezing climates are challenging for EVs. Warmer climate works better for EVs.