Investigating Hype Over the Smartflower, 40 Percent More Efficient than Solar Panels

Smartflower image from video below.
https://twitter.com/TheFigen/status/1551206040557047808

The technology is interesting but the video seems like an advertorial.

Smartflower is a smart solar panel that follows the sun. It produces 40% more energy than regular solar panels and generates 4,000 kWh per year, comparable to an average household’s daily use.

That’s not true, at least in the US. 

Energy Use in Homes 

The US Energy Information says the average U.S. household consumes about 11,000 kilowatthours (kWh) per year. That was in 2015. 

The 2020 Average Electricity Consumption was 10,715 kilowatthours (kWh). Louisiana had the highest annual electricity consumption at 14,407 kWh.

Smartflower History

EnergySage did a Complete Solar Flower Review

In late 2017, the Austrian manufacturer of the Smartflower began bankruptcy proceedings in Germany. However, the U.S. division of Smartflower operates independently from the original Austrian developer and had planned on starting to manufacture Smartflower solar flowers in the United States.

Despite the hype, the technology is not that new. The company went bankrupt for a reason and cost is undoubtedly most of that reason.

The cost to install a Smartflower ranges from $25,000 to $30,000, with the average U.S. customer likely paying around $27,000. Pricing for the Smartflower PLUS and the Smartflower with integrated car charging is not yet available.

To power a US house you would need three of these babies. In Louisiana, you night need four of them. 

The average cost to power a sunbelt house using the Smartflower is in the neighborhood of $100,000.

EnergySage comments “Without the tracking and self-cleaning functionality, the Smartflower is simply a standard ground-mounted system at twice the price.

The Future of Solar Energy?

Smartflower bills itself as the “Future of Solar Energy. 

As of 2020, there were 124 million US households. Each household would need about 2.5 Sunflowers. 

$27,000 * 124,000,000 * 2.5 =   $8,370,000,000,000

Where we would put 310 million of these is a mystery. How we would get energy from the desert to where it’s needed is also a mystery. 

The Payback Period

There is none. 

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the average monthly residential electric bill for Americans was $117.46 in 2020, up from $115 in 2019.

$117.46 * 12 = $1,409.52. 

$100,000 /  $1,409.52/Year  = 71 years 

That assumes electric bills will be constant. But it also assumes zero maintenance costs on the Sunflower. And that won’t happen either. The warranty period is 10 years on the inverter and 25 years on the panels.  

Finally, what about interest on $100,000 or the opportunity cost of spending $100,000 on these and the cost of connecting this to your home?

EnergySage concludes “In most cases, a standard rooftop or ground-mounted system will be significantly more cost-effective for your home.”

At these prices, the Sunflower is not the future of anything. 

This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

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wes333
wes333
3 years ago
I disagree with you on one point. There is technolgy available to convert desert solar power into oil or methanol. Then it could be piped or whatever to where it’s needed efficiently. If the carbon is captured from air, it would have no net effect. Apparently 200 square miles of Africa could produce the worlds energy needs.
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
More interesting are experiments with vertically mounted wind turbines, or Archimedes’ screw, both vertical and horizontal.
Obviously every design has advantages & disadvantages, otherwise everything would have been settled by now.
But propellers (for boats too) are an entire technical discipline themselves.
I am sure solar panels will still see huge technological gains, in efficiency and materials (organic, flexible, cheaper materials).
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Webej
Solar panels are fully mature in terms of conversion of photons to electrons. The max is somewhere around 23%. Anything higher than that is multilayer, with no impact on the conversion rate. Vertical wind turbines are someone’s art school project.
wes333
wes333
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Unless you use the heat also. If you cooled the panels with a refrigerant like r134a then run a turbine you could produce more power and the panels would work better.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  wes333
And you would use the extra power, and more, to compress the refrigerant.
Ever study thermodynamics?
Entropy always wins.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Reply to  Webej
Yep remember all the money laundering that was done through the solar panel companies during the Obama administration!!!!
Webej
Webej
3 years ago
  • I use about 4000 KWh/year, but we use gas for heat and warm water. Obviously electrical heating, warm water, or air-conditioning would change this drastically.
  • It is obviously true that changing the angle of incidence will allow you to harvest more energy.
  • However mine are fixed on top of the roof at the optimum angle.
  • And for good reason: An installation that can withstand a winter storm (130 km winds) and automatically adapts to the angle of sun rays would certainly have meant I never had them installed at all.
wes333
wes333
3 years ago
Reply to  Webej
I built my own dual axis tracking frame out of steel. For 2000 watts it cost me 700$ for the panels and about the same for the actuators and the wiring. Then another 700 for the inverter and charge controller. 1000 for the batteries, so about 2400$ and a shed that was about 800$. I didn’t want the lithium batteries inside in case they catch fire. I have about 2kw hours of battery power. An arduino for 5$ and a relay boards for about 40$ and it follows the sun based on time of day. A 5 dollar hall effect sensor on a panel tells the controller where it is facing.
Bam_Man
Bam_Man
3 years ago
But it looks like a flower, so there’s that.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
3 years ago
I just installed a 22 x 400w panel system with a 13+ kwh backup battery system, and a new electrical panel for 46k out of pocket. I also rolled in a portion of new roof for tax credit purposes.
System should produce 14,000 kwh per year.
Those flowers are not even in the ballpark of current market prices in So Cal, which is a very expensive market for Solar installations at the moment.
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
3 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
What make/model of the backup battery? What’s currently popular?
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
3 years ago
Reply to  Siliconguy
Its 2, an Enphase Encharge 10T+3T.
Its nothing special. I just refuse Tesla and the Enphase control option with the battery seem decent.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
46K in cost. WTF. That’s a crazy amount of money for a solar installation + battery. What’s the payback time frame (ie what was your monthly bill averaging).
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
26% tax credit, average electricity bill is ~$370, should drop to $15 because battery will cover high cost in evenings. Breakeven is around 8.5 years if electricity doesnt increase. That is pretty standard for solar installs as far as I understand it.
This was the 2nd lowest quote out of 6. I didnt get a quote from Tesla because I just wont.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
So did Elon hurt your feelings when he went after Twitter???
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
3 years ago
Reply to  JRM
Nah, here is the list. I saw Tesla employees doing manual assembly of vehicles in tents and then heard about bumpers filling with water and falling off, along with my wifes cousin having endless service issues, and in the solar market there is a suggestion that the price is the best, but the customer service is the worst.
His comments on population and birthrate are the most recent errors. I just cant ever support Tesla with even a dime. If I find that I do, I will undo it just as fast.
“A man I do not trust could not get money from me on all the bonds in Christendom. I think that is the fundamental basis of business.” – JP Morgan
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
If anyone in your household requires medication that must be refrigerated, look into the plan that Edison offers for batteries. My Inlaws just got 2 Tesla batteries paid 100% by Edison for this.
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
3 years ago
Reply to  Billy
Thanks for the tip, thankfully it doesnt apply to me, but good to know!
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  SAKMAN1
Does your 14 MWh calculation account for the 20%-25% overhead, i.e., energy dissipation, in panel systems? Did you stick it on the roof because you lack space on the ground?
SAKMAN1
SAKMAN1
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb

The panels in this location should have the capability to generate 16,000-23,000 kwh per year. That is what vendors here sell as a ~14,000 kwh system. 6 quotes were all in the same ballpark of generation potential so, the calculation was done for me.

The house is in Orange County CA. It has a lovely large yard, which is quite unusual there. So, the panels are on the roof.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
If they would make solar systems in the shape and color of Monarch Butterflies I would purchase no matter what the cost/ benefit ratio.
25 years ago, I set my system on a dedicated raised frame to get it above the tree shadow. I positioned it facing due south using an accurate clock and the shadow of a vertical pole in the winter months. I used a chart that showed longitudinal declination from time zone to determine my locations true high noon. I used my latitude to figure the ideal fixed angle. Because I was off the grid, I received no subsidies. Off the grid purchasers financially supported the industry before subsidies and had the greatest need for the technology but got no thanks. I believe off grid people still get no subsidies.
TheCaptain
TheCaptain
3 years ago
8 years ago I installed a 15.3kW grid tie pv solar system on my roof at my home just north of Austin TX (67 panels @230W each). During the time that I owned it, electricity was about 10-11cents per kWH. I did some of the work myself, acquired the panels from a bankruptcy sale, etc. But certain parts could not be done by me if I wanted the federal and local subsidies. The total job was around $37k using enphase m215 microinverters (which was a premium to using string inverters). After all was said and done, I was out of pocket $21k ($1.37/Watt) which was obscenely low at the time, but again I was highly involved with the installation. If you just told a jobber to “put it up there” there is no way you would have gotten it done for less than $2.50 per Watt at the time. So my experience is not what others would have gotten.
A big part of the savings on grid tie is your deal with the power company. That deal can range from so-so to outright theft depending on the company you use. I used green mountain energy and it was so-so. They would pay me for my generation up to a point and then after that it was free to them.
Still I found that that, on average over the time I owned the system, I got about $200 of benefit per month. So after owning it for 8.5 years it had just about achieved payoff. By this time 10 of the panels were no longer reporting. I suspect that the microinverters died. But the system was still producing free energy. Since the microinverters were old, buying new ones was relatively cheap to do (500-$600)but I deferred it.
I sold that house about 3 months ago, right at the peak of the market and moved to the Bahamas. The buyer paid me at least $20k above fair market value for the house because of the panels (and there was full disclosure as to the working state of it). So for me, I got kind of lucky and I doubled my investment in solar.
However, a hail storm last december before I sold caused some pock marks in the shingles which supposedly warranted a new roof. The roofer came out and bid the job for $47k where I thought it would be more like $30k. The reason? They had to disassemble the solar and then reassemble it. So keep this in mind when considering a roof mount (something I will never do again for this very reason). I did not elect to replace the roof because of the cost, and yes I did receive a partial settlement for the damage which was of course disclosed to the buyer.
During the time that I owned this system there was zero maintenance. I washed the panels once but since it made zero difference to my electricity generation, that was the only time it happened in more than 8 years. The nice thing about microinverters is fault tolerance and the ability to understand the condition of the array on a panel by panel basis.
The biggest lesson I learned from this is to keep economics in mind when considering solar and that means all markets are local. Today in Austin the electricity is still a reasonably cheap $0.13 per kWh. So there is no way you want to spend big money on a premium flower type solar installation. Also, what does the mechanical aspect of the flower design provide that has any economic value? In Texas, not much. And there will be maintenance of that mechanical component.
But let’s talk about Freeport, BS where electricity is $0.36 per kWh and where they have big storms with some regularity. Is the retractable flower such an economic joke? The answer is no. The higher cost of city electricity and the much higher chance of seeing occasional 150mph storms mean that I have to keep an open mind. I’m not saying that it is worth it but it does warrant more consideration before likely declining it.
But moving away from the expensive flower design for a second to just a fixed array design you can see that solar panels are a 3x better investment in the Bahamas than in Austin TX. for now. I suspect that gap closes as the dollar loses reserve currency status and the US grid needs a big cash infusion to support new loads like electric cars and so solar likely makes more sense in the US for most people as time goes on.
kansasdude
kansasdude
3 years ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
Only way I would consider roof mount is if I had a steel roof. I learned this after years of my wife switching various cable companies and my roof looking like a used satellite parking lot on one side and having to get all that crap off and patched.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  kansasdude
When I looked at panels five years ago, the very first decision I made was that we’d get ground mounted. It snows a lot here, and I wasn’t going to get on a ladder in January and clean ’em off. The numbers never worked so we didn’t do it. This past winter, we got 12 feet of snow between Dec. 13 and Jan. 6. The roof had 3 feet of very wet, icy snow, and on the ground it was waist-high. I was very glad to have made the right call for us.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
“Net metering” is a subsidy, and I am against that. I don’t see why any generator of electricity should be paid more than any other generator. The average utility’s costs are 60% for maintenance of the distribution grid and administration of the utility, and 40% for generation. Most (but not all) “net metering” schemes are kWh-for-kWh, which effectively gives panel owners free use of the grid. Or more accurately, forces non-panel customers to pay for panel owners.

I had a house built five years ago, and looked into panels at the time. Our electricity rate is 9.63 cents/kWh, and even after the 30% federal tax credit it worked out to 14 cents/kWh. And that’s without factoring in the 20%-25% overhead, i.e., the difference between what the panels produce and what can be used. If I’d incorporated that, it would’ve been 18 cents/kWh. So, no panels for us.

Mish
Mish
3 years ago
I explicitly stated:
That assumes electric bills will be constant. But it also assumes zero maintenance costs on the Sunflower.
Added a few other things readers pointed out like interest payments and connecting to the house.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
When I looked at panels, I set the time value of money equal to electric rate inflation and removed both from the equation. This marginally favored solar panels, but not materially so given that other factors were far more important.
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
I trust Smartflower’s claims as much as I trust Uganda discovering 320,000 metric tons of gold.
Just from the looks of the Smartflower, it looks less efficient and more expensive than a dual or single axis solar tracking system. Standard solar trackers are rarely recommended for residential applications and in most cases take long to pay off their investment compared to a fixed panel system.
BTW, did you notice NEM’s huge gap today?
Carl_R
Carl_R
3 years ago
And this is why we need government subsidies for solar power options. If you don’t have subsidies, people might make rational choices and buy only things that are financially viable.
/sar
Nonplused
Nonplused
3 years ago
Once again batteries are not included in the pricing, so grid services are required. A typical lead-acid battery installation suitable to keep a house powered overnight is going to run $10,000 and last about 5 years.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  Nonplused
You don’t need the battery unless you are going 100% off-grid.
The way solar works for most people (like 99% of solar users) is you generate power and put it into the grid and the electric company gives you credit for what you put into the grid. Then you take out what you use from the grid. So you are always getting power from the grid (and never from your panels directly) and thus don’t need a battery.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
You’d use the battery for outage backup, but if the outage lasts more than a couple days you’re SOL. For the cost of just one 10 kWh battery, you can get a whole-house generator. In the countryside, propane-fueled. In town, natural gas.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  JackWebb
The nat gas generator will last longer than the batteries.
Mobey
Mobey
3 years ago
Disappointing to see so many simple minded responses.
Whether THIS solar panel is the answer or not is immaterial. Solar, wind, tide all need to be explored.
It also doesn’t matter if we’re the cause of global warming. The planet is warming and we are at least contributors.
If I get lung cancer I don’t know if my 4 pack a day habit caused it, so I should continue smoking?
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Mobey
yes if its terminal. I know a couple folks who went out enjoying what they like
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
Reply to  Mobey
So far the best option looks like 4th gen nuclear reactors. I agree that we should look at all options.
I find that most people who complain never look or research into any solutions. It reminds me of listening to my wife just before her period. She doesn’t really want a solution, she just wants someone to listen to her.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Mobey
Tidal power requires more energy input than is produced. Wind and solar are intermittent sources, and are much more expensive than conventional generation.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
Reply to  Mobey
Ignore the fact that it has been even hotter in the past!!!
Temperatures didn’t just appear when thermometers appeared!!!
And Cement and steel will raise Temps, look where they place all the temperature gauges!!!!
At airports and on top of buildings!!!! Talk about manipulating the TEMPS!!!!
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Flowers aren’t flat, they look like a radar antenna, a rotating parabola. They need a large generator for their servos.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Not to mention plants don’t photosynthesize with flowers. Leaves do that. Plants orient leaves for maximum solar flux. Flowers are oriented to attract pollinators.
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
With a photovoltaic bee pollinating the photovoltaic flowers we can have them reproducing in no time.
Billy
Billy
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
In this case it looks like pollinators are either the customers or investors.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
Finally, someone thinking critically, with an understanding of plant phyllotaxis!
Kick'n
Kick’n
3 years ago
Reply to  8dots
Yup! They’re all radar domes set to track our every move. Don’t be fooled. The gov’t is way ahead. This is how the getcha!
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
I saw this about ten years ago on This Old House. While a good idea, I wonder if the additional costs pay off. It needs a cable from the house, a motor to rotate it, and another to fold it.
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Ok, got full offer on home in the city, accepted as buyers are pre-approved. Taking the money and running…
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
That’s what I love about social media. You can gloat anonymously.
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
no gloating, I stated here 45 days ago I put house up for sale and I would let you know if it sits or scooped up. All the doom didn’t stop someone from purchasing 7 figure home…
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Let us know when you close… How much is the deposit, and is it refundable?
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
its a lock….just 2 contingencies, pretty normal on termite and inspection.
JRM
JRM
3 years ago
There has been several properties in my are in S OR that were listed as sold by a real estate company and a week later back on the market for a lower price!!!
Doug78
Doug78
3 years ago
I must have missed your statement 45 days ago. Normally in an excel spreadsheet I write down what everyone writes with cross-references and a searchable database with performance reviews compiled by my team of minions.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Gee, I just tell my private secretary to tell the business secretary to keep track of it.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Actually I do recall you saying you were putting your home on the market but I can’t remember where you are (southern Cali?)
Congrats on selling it, now where exactly are you moving to that will allow you to turn a profit (ie buy a similar place for less cost or are you downsizing)?
Market still hot here in South Florida too.
honestcreditguy
honestcreditguy
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
San Francisco, in one of better neighborhoods. Renting a place in the desert (temecula) for a year already, $800 a month from extended family member, Cheap living with golf course behind us while both of us work from home. Buying in Santa Rosa next year
Call_Me
Call_Me
3 years ago
The tweet that caught your attention would seem to be an advert based on the account holder’s profile description:
“Turkish Woman /PhD Musicology/Teacher/ Follow me for #funny #cool and #humour videos… DM for promo/ad price of your account.
I have real organic followers.”
The US company that purchased the remnants of the Austrian firm seems to be selling a non-collapsible version and their website gave me the impression that installing one is mostly a firm virtue-signalling rather than a savvy purchase of an innovative product.
Call_Me_Al
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
“The US Energy Information says the average U.S. household consumes about 11,000 kilowatthours (kWh) per year.”
“According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the average
monthly residential electric bill for Americans was $117.46 in 2020”
My bill current was about $38.50. According to the bill, 187 kilowatt hours were used, x 12 would be 2244 per year. My usage is higher during the summer and this is the highest usage in the last 12 months. As i have said before, i used to get an occasional report from the Water and power company, in which i was typically in the lowest 6-7% of electricity users “among similar households.”
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
Mine is always much higher than average. I don’t use a lot of electricity. My guess is my house uses a heat pump while most houses heat with gas. So, not a fair comparison.
TheCaptain
TheCaptain
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
It depends on where you live. Ppl in CA don’t even have air conditioners for the most part but nobody in Texas lives without one. Hot, humid air means high AC bill. Without that the electric bill would be nothing.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
People within 3 miles of the CA coastline don’t have AC for the most part. But everyone else does.
I lived for 3 years in Walnut Creek (East Bay Area) and summers were well in the 90s during the day and you can be sure everyone had AC. Yet if I went across the bay into San Fran, the temperature was 25 or 30 degrees cooler thanks to proximity to the water. There hardly anyone had or needed AC.
Most Californians don’t live within 3 miles of the coast.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
And most people can no longer afford to live in San Fran.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Mish,
not to nitpick here but you’ve made many assumptions.
Assumption #1. The current cost of electricity (based on gas/oil/coal) will stay the same for the next 70 years. There isn’t infinite gas/oil/coal in the ground and at some point the price will skyrocket. As PapaDave points out, there isn’t much investment going on in building pipelines, coal plants or refineries anymore, at least not in the US.
Assumption 2. The cost of those solar panels will not go down over time as economies of scale kick in too.
Assumption 3. The cost of pollution with fossil energy is zero, this isn’t the case, there is a great cost to society for all the CO2 and methane created in energy production.
At some point the higher cost of fossil energy will be offset by the lowering cost of solar panels. When those days happen will likely be a decade or so from now barring any technological innovations that change the equations for either.
Agree that right now, the pricing model doesn’t seem to work but that is the case with virtually every new technology. Remember when a 386 computer cost $2000? Today you can get a computer 1000x faster for 1/4th the price.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
Sure but Mish didn’t even factor in paying interest on the 100K investment in solar. If you factor that in (at say 3%) the payout takes a LOT longer than 70 years. More importantly, the product will be used up in probably 20 years tops leaving you paying another 50 years on it.
As far as assumption 3 goes, you are now assuming the cost to create solar panels uses no fossil energy. That’s obviously false. It may be that the fossil cost to make the panels (mining materials, production, transportation of them+mining materials, installation of them, maintenance of the, disposal at end of life) offsets entirely the fossil cost to generate the electric (much now is generated by wind, nuclear, hydro etc) the traditional way.
Some solar is definitely worth it now depending on where you live. But *these* solar panels Mish references in the article are definitely not under any circumstances.
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
3 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
These are all valid critiques of Mish’s assessment. However it doesn’t consider the cost savings (yet complete price accomplishment to enterprise) if we’d implement the policies of the new monetary paradigm with twin 50% discount/rebate/ 50%discount/debt jubilees at policies at point of note signing. That would cut the costs of such solar panels by 75%. So you could consider the new policies and the macro problems they resolve or you can be a stupid orthodox thinker who risks human and general species extinction. Think about it.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Extinction? Just when I though I’ve heard everything from those who have no understanding of global warming, I read this.
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
HAHAHA!
Kick'n
Kick’n
3 years ago
Reply to  KidHorn
Make no mistake, mankind is heading for a reckoning with Mother Nature. Climate change, poisoning the air, poisoning the water, poisoning the soil, fish farming, animal harvesting, monoculture, wet markets, toxic waste dumps, land clearing, …etc, etc, etc. None of it is sustainable for 8 billion people. People in the red states think its all temporary. It’s not if your a scientist. It’s easy to read. It’s just a matter of when. It’s like forecasting the recession here. We all know it’s gonna happen. It’s just the timing that hard to predict…
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
3 years ago
Reply to  Kick’n
Correct, it’s a fact. But most of the democratic “solutions” are inadequate or even wrong headed which is only nominally better than republican climate denying. We have to increase purchasing power while simultaneously discouraging increased consumption. One big way to syphon off savings instead of merely buying more things from the purchasing power increase created by the 50% Discount/Rebate policy at retail sale would be to offer eco-bonds at much higher rates than other bonds.
Kick'n
Kick’n
3 years ago
Ha! Not that optimistic. If people can’t see it, it doesn’t exist. There are people who will consume the last drop of water from an aquifer for their farm or ranch and still expect God or the government to bail them out. If cattle ranches became too expensive to operate ranchers would ask for subsidies to prop up a losing battle. I recently saw where some geniuses want to pump Mississippi water west to prop up areas that should never have been developed. American exceptionalism is going to meet reality whether ecologically or politically or both. There are somethings that capitalism simply cannot solve. And Americans are far too worried about their individual rights and standard of living to care about the long term. But Russia should benefit the most in the coming decades if humanity doesn’t implode through man made or natural disaster.
As an aside I have been giving much thought to a CME, or Coronal Mass Ejection. Such an event could render electronics destroyed and the grid useless. In this scenario anything using fossil fuel without computer chips could be priceless. The last major CME in 1859 was long before the electronic revolution. No one really knows what will happen until it hits. You might protect small electronics but anything outside might be completely destroyed. But without a grid electronics might as well be dead. I hope people are working on it but who knows what can really be done on such a large scale?
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Reply to  Kick’n
I would argue, but there’s no arguing with a religious zealot who thinks his faith is fact. LOL
TheCaptain
TheCaptain
3 years ago
Go back to window cleaning, climate alarmist. You have drunk too much of the Jonestown Kookaid (sic).
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
3 years ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
I always check my orthodox tendencies by integrating opposites with the intent of resolving problems. I’m afraid you are simply an anti-climate change kook yourself. Please try opening your mind.
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
3 years ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
And by the way I was the owner of a boutique residential window cleaning business so I like profit. But the designation actually refers to cleaning the windows of perception so as to eliminate outdated and problematic orthodoxies…the better to see the integratively problem resolving way forward. In other words using the actual mental process of wisdom to solve problems. Try it, you’ll like it.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
You are a faith-based yammerer. Facts? Forget it. Faith is easier for you and your kind.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Nah. Have the Government give everyone all the solar panels, installed, that they want and charge the cost to their grandchildren.
Mish
Mish
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
I explicitly pointed out assumption #1
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
3 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Mish, I’ve followed you since before the GFC in 2008. You have an astute knowledge of the current system. However, what we need is a new system, and a new monetary and financial paradigm to accomplish that new system. I really wish you would attempt to understand that system even though it requires one to question their own orthodoxies in a radical way. Why? Because every accomplised paradigm change has always been in complete conceptual opposition to the current paradigm. For instance the Copernican Cosmological paradigm change was simply the inversion of the positions of the earth and the sun, in other words conceptually the inversion of geo-centrism to helio-centrism. We have to permanently resolve problems that palliatives no longer are effective against. As I have pointed out here such a change actually integrates the best and most true aspects of opposing dualisms like Keynesianism and Austrianism into a true thirdness greater oneness of truths, workabilities and highest ethical considerations of such current opposing duality. Austrians want price deflation, Keynesians want more money creation. Both can be accomplished with the policies of the new monetary and financial parasdigm. Please engage me here.
JackWebb
JackWebb
3 years ago
Oh God, one of the Kumbaya people. Let me guess: California?
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Did you write that with a random sentence generator?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Is that the More Money Today theory?
vboring
vboring
3 years ago
It is also worth adding that these systems don’t actually power a house. They still need a grid connection.
Some areas still let solar customers use the grid for free – letting everyone else pick up their tab.
Most have added some sort of fee to make customers with solar pay for the services they use. These costs come out to 20-50% of a normal monthly bill, depending on circumstances.
TheCaptain
TheCaptain
3 years ago
Reply to  vboring
Yours is another ignorant response by someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about. The electric company does not pay the full value of the electricity generated. In some cases (like Austin Energy) you get less than HALF. But nobody gets away with any deal better than 70%. So yes, they are paying their fair share in real time.
“The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant; it’s just that they ‘know’ so much that isn’t so.”
–Ronald Reagan
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
3 years ago
Reply to  TheCaptain
That’s actually true of both the democratic and republican political and economic perspectives.
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
3 years ago
Reply to  vboring
The connection fee here is 55 cents a day for residential (single phase) power and $1.04 a day for three phase. Then the electricity is above that.
That is the fair way to charge people.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
That average value seems awful low. It must be mitigated by a LOT of apartments and condos and the fact that in the north everyone heats with gas/oil rather than electric.
Here in Florida when I lived in condo (1300 sq ft) my average bill was about 100 but once I moved to my house it’s more on the order of 250ish (I have a 4400 sq ft house).
Solar only makes sense when you own a house in the south where there is a lot of sun. Then your bills will be higher (more sq footage in the house and you need AC 8+ months a year) so the payback will be shorter (10-15 years) on traditional solar panels (not the ones in this article).
The most promising option are companies that builds them directly onto the shingles themselves. So when you replace your roof you replace with the solar shingles.
Sumnerho125
Sumnerho125
3 years ago
Mish
Your pay back time assumes no interest, not sure how many households have 100k laying around
shamrock
shamrock
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumnerho125
Even if they have 100k the opportunity cost of no longer having 100k to invest could be pretty high.
Dutoit
Dutoit
3 years ago
I think that this should give the same energy as twice the same surface of root solar panels. And these solar panels are much less expensive, and probably they are more resistant to storms.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
I’ve looked into getting solar panels several times. My house is south facing so putting panels on the front would be ideal. The savings wouldn’t be enough to warrant the risk of panels wearing out prematurely or unexpected repairs.
I did buy a solar roof fan maybe 15 years ago. I think I paid around $500 for it after rebates. Not sure if it’s paid for itself or not. But it keeps chugging along.
PreCambrian
PreCambrian
3 years ago
Multi-axis controllers for solar panels have been around for decades. The typical residential installation is fixed (i.e. doesn’t track) on the roof. Typical industrial installation is single axis (typically rotates from east to west). Two axis controllers are available where it is necessary to obtain the maximum amount of energy from a given space.
Siliconguy
Siliconguy
3 years ago
Reply to  PreCambrian
If you need a lot of summer power they can make sense. At 45 degrees north the sun rises in the NE swings south, then sets to the NW. A fixed mount aimed south isn’t going to see the sun until 8 AM and not after 6 PM. A dual axis tracker will pick up two more hours on each end, and increase power during the rest of the day.
In the winter it matters much less, SE to S to SW. It’s all basically south.

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